What are the figures like for a pre-mba (after 1-2 years at analyst level) at MBB, Deloitte, OW, Booz, and other top shops? Does it compare to post mba numbers?
Typically about 115-125K all inclusive (bonus + sign on + base after 2 years at the firm) at all firms. MBA numbers are significantly higher at about 175K all inclusive
However, what do you have against Deloitte man! Everyone I have talked to regards it as one of the best after MBB (and these are MBA students at top 10 business schools, some consultants at OW, Booz and LEK...). Now either their perception is totally wrong or I have been deceived!! :P
I don't have anything against Deloitte, It's just nowhere near as good a firm as you seem to think it is; it is a third tier management consulting firm. They mass recruit and aren't the least bit selective. The work they do is more "process" oriented than strategic.
Also Buyside shops (PE, HF and VC) would almost never recruit a Deloitte employee
Most people on this board would agree, someone else care to comment?
I don't have anything against Deloitte, It's just nowhere near as good a firm as you seem to think it is; it is a third tier management consulting firm. They mass recruit and aren't the least bit selective. The work they do is more "process" oriented than strategic.
Also Buyside shops (PE, HF and VC) would almost never recruit a Deloitte employee
Most people on this board would agree, someone else care to comment?
In my opinion, the leading strat houses (so the ones mentioned: MBB, Booz, OW, Monitor) make their money through original ideas/analysis (i.e. talent), whereas Deloitte make their money through implementation of standardised package solutions (i.e. manpower), the classic example being Shared Services Centres.
I dont know where you get this info from, but there is no support for this. I agree they have been recruiting a lot lately, but thats to increase business. Think of it, why would they hire so many people if they are not getting many projects to work on? Now you will say they are not 'strategy' projects, but again it comes under S&O and their recent mantra has been 'Strategy with Implementation', which is helping them get a lot of business lately. Obviously not up there with MBB, they are most definitely one of the top 2nd tier firms...
I dont know where you get this info from, but there is no support for this. I agree they have been recruiting a lot lately, but thats to increase business. Think of it, why would they hire so many people if they are not getting many projects to work on? Now you will say they are not 'strategy' projects, but again it comes under S&O and their recent mantra has been 'Strategy with Implementation', which is helping them get a lot of business lately. Obviously not up there with MBB, they are most definitely one of the top 2nd tier firms...
Deloitte use the name "strategy" purely for PR purposes. Mmonkey is entirely right, it isn't real strategy consulting. And you make it sound like "implementation" is a good thing. In reality, this is simply doing the mediocre legwork for companies, contracting Deloitte like cyclical labour.
Haha..cool! I just wonder why the perceptions of various people differ so much.
mmonkey is right. Deloitte is third tier and not really that selective.
--------------------------------------------------------
"I do not think there is any other quality so essential to success of any kind as the quality of perseverance. It overcom
Ok, since you keep chalking it up to "perceptions" I think you need to understand a few things
Recruiting:
MBB grab all the best talent first, the people who don't get MBB try to go to OW, Booz, LEK, Monitor (henceforth referred to as 2nd tier) etc
2nd tier firms like OW, Booz, LEK etc are very selective, they only visit the best schools and hire people who have performed well, they are actually quite similar to MBB but just don't have the same scale/prestige.
Deloitte is not seen on parity with these firms, anyone seriously considering management consulting will only consider Deloitte after they have been rejected by ALL firms mentioned above. People at junior levels in Deloitte are people who didn't make any of the prior firms
Deloitte is not selective, they go to most schools and will even hire people who have a very mediocre performance.
Exit opportunities
The Buyside will recruit heavily from MBB, a little from 2nd tier firms but not from Deloitte (this is a FACT)
Placement into B schools from MBB is excellent, 2nd tier firms while not as good as MBB place very well. B school placements out of Deloitte are similar to pretty much any mass recruiter out there (think Pwc, EY, KPMG etc), i.e., not great
Corp development Headhunters specifically ask for MBB and maybe a few 2nd tier firms. I have never ever seen a headhunter look for a Deloitte employee (just check out glocap right now if you want proof)
Type of work/charges
The pure strategy houses perform only strategic work, because implementation is
::a. Much cheaper (you have to charge less for it, because the market is filled with firms that do it)
::b. Mundane, you don't need a well educated, smart resourceful person to perform it
Deloitte's billing rates are MUCH lower than all other firms mentioned on this thread, I've seen bids from Deloitte and they are a much cheaper firm to hire
At the lower levels at Deloitte, employees are usually just workhorses and have little to no impact on the direction/strategy of the case. A look through reviews at any consulting forum will support this
Deloitte's revenue per employee is abysmally low compared to other top consulting firms
Bottom line: People work at Deloitte if they don't have a choice!
Didn't want to do this, but you're obviously trolling for Deloitte
Ok, since you keep chalking it up to "perceptions" I think you need to understand a few things
Recruiting:
MBB grab all the best talent first, the people who don't get MBB try to go to OW, Booz, LEK, Monitor (henceforth referred to as 2nd tier) etc
2nd tier firms like OW, Booz, LEK etc are very selective, they only visit the best schools and hire people who have performed well, they are actually quite similar to MBB but just don't have the same scale/prestige.
Deloitte is not seen on parity with these firms, anyone seriously considering management consulting will only consider Deloitte after they have been rejected by ALL firms mentioned above. People at junior levels in Deloitte are people who didn't make any of the prior firms
Deloitte is not selective, they go to most schools and will even hire people who have a very mediocre performance.
Exit opportunities
The Buyside will recruit heavily from MBB, a little from 2nd tier firms but not from Deloitte (this is a FACT)
Placement into B schools from MBB is excellent, 2nd tier firms while not as good as MBB place very well. B school placements out of Deloitte are similar to pretty much any mass recruiter out there (think Pwc, EY, KPMG etc), i.e., not great
Corp development Headhunters specifically ask for MBB and maybe a few 2nd tier firms. I have never ever seen a headhunter look for a Deloitte employee (just check out glocap right now if you want proof)
Type of work/charges
The pure strategy houses perform only strategic work, because implementation is
::a. Much cheaper (you have to charge less for it, because the market is filled with firms that do it)
::b. Mundane, you don't need a well educated, smart resourceful person to perform it
Deloitte's billing rates are MUCH lower than all other firms mentioned on this thread, I've seen bids from Deloitte and they are a much cheaper firm to hire
At the lower levels at Deloitte, employees are usually just workhorses and have little to no impact on the direction/strategy of the case. A look through reviews at any consulting forum will support this
Bottom line: People work at Deloitte if they don't have a choice!
Didn't want to do this, but you're obviously trolling for Deloitte
Thanks!
Everything Mmonkey said is absolutely dead on. Deloitte is a good firm, but it is 3rd tier. First tier M/B/B, second tier OW / Monitor / Booz / (maybe) LEK, and Deloitte is squarely in 3rd Tier, regardless of what Vault ranking says. Nothing to be ashamed of, it's still a very good firm to work for, but it's 3rd tier. I have never heard of someone turning down a job at any of the 1st or 2nd tier firms listed above, for a comparable position at Deloitte. Not saying it's impossible, but I have never heard of one.
And how does everyone know Deloitte doesn't use their 'talent' to make money? Also, what is 'real' strategy? This seems like make believe for people working in MBB to try and distance themselves from other firms.
And how does everyone know Deloitte doesn't use their 'talent' to make money? Also, what is 'real' strategy? This seems like make believe for people working in MBB to try and distance themselves from other firms.
You sir are an idiot, Bain doesn't provide shared services centers, this is their study on how they work, LOL
MBB and other top strat houses do not need to distance themselves, its self fulfilling - they are the best firms, hence the best talent go there
Okay, If I take what you are saying, should I consider applying to Deloitte then? I am leaning towards consulting than I banking, but my eventual aim is to enter PE/VC/HF. I will obviously try for MBB, but if I dont get in, should I consider Deloitte if I get in there (will only consider S&O)?
If you want to do PE/HF/VC, definitely don't go to Deloitte. If you don't get MBB there are other great consulting firms you should be considering (names have been mentioned here and on other threads). Why are you pimping Deloitte so hard if you don't work there? seems really irrational
Thats really because many of my friends at b-schools really told me great things about it(most of them dont even work there).. I dont know its weird, and I had developed such a nice image of the firm... I'll actually forward this thread to them...
So you are saying if I dont go to MBB, and lets say Booz/Monitor etc, and I end up getting Deloitte, there is no way I could enter buy side? Unless I go to a top b school that is...
B school doesn't help with buyside recruiting unless you were in PE before b school (or top consulting/bulge bracket - still a slim chance). Buyside after Deloitte is very very difficult (nothing is impossible) and at a megafund would be borderline impossible.
I agree with most of what's on here generally as far as overall firm reputations, but I just wanted to point out for the OP that there are exceptions.
For example, while Deloitte overall is much weaker, they do have a turnaround/reorganization group that is quite good. I actually have a friend who left Bain to join Deloitte because Bain didn't do that sort of work. And buyside firms definitely recruit out of that group. But I agree that general consulting at Deloitte is not in the same ballpark at M/B/B, or the "2nd tier" firms.
Likewise, if you're dealing with consulting focused on financial services, McKinsey and Oliver Wyman are in a league of their own. Look at risk, for example. Only those 2 have risk groups. BCG is working frantically to build one out, but not much is happening at Bain, Booz, etc. And to be honest, Oliver Wyman is probably more respected within financial services than McKinsey. McKinsey has the name and prestige, but almost every single person I know who has hired both firms has had nothing but positive things to say about the quality of Oliver Wyman's work.
My point is just that while overall firm reputations definitely matter, you have to keep in mind niche areas or specialty groups. No one tends to look at that while you're in school, but once you've spent a good number of years working you'll realize how much those things matter.
It's similar to finance--Goldman is great, but if Goldman sucks in the product area you focus on, and some other bank is better, say BofAML, then you go to the bank with the better desk. You'll make more money that way, and once you start to focus on a particular area, believe me, everyone who works in that area knows who is best, and that it doesn't always follow general firm prestige exactly. Overall firm prestige is very important early in your career, but it fades as time moves on and once you start to specialize.
I agree with most of what's on here generally as far as overall firm reputations, but I just wanted to point out for the OP that there are exceptions.
For example, while Deloitte overall is much weaker, they do have a turnaround/reorganization group that is quite good. I actually have a friend who left Bain to join Deloitte because Bain didn't do that sort of work. And buyside firms definitely recruit out of that group. But I agree that general consulting at Deloitte is not in the same ballpark at M/B/B, or the "2nd tier" firms.
Likewise, if you're dealing with consulting focused on financial services, McKinsey and Oliver Wyman are in a league of their own. Look at risk, for example. Only those 2 have risk groups. BCG is working frantically to build one out, but not much is happening at Bain, Booz, etc. And to be honest, Oliver Wyman is probably more respected within financial services than McKinsey. McKinsey has the name and prestige, but almost every single person I know who has hired both firms has had nothing but positive things to say about the quality of Oliver Wyman's work.
My point is just that while overall firm reputations definitely matter, you have to keep in mind niche areas or specialty groups. No one tends to look at that while you're in school, but once you've spent a good number of years working you'll realize how much those things matter.
It's similar to finance--Goldman is great, but if Goldman sucks in the product area you focus on, and some other bank is better, say BofAML, then you go to the bank with the better desk. You'll make more money that way, and once you start to focus on a particular area, believe me, everyone who works in that area knows who is best, and that it doesn't always follow general firm prestige exactly. Overall firm prestige is very important early in your career, but it fades as time moves on and once you start to specialize.
I agree with most of what's on here generally as far as overall firm reputations, but I just wanted to point out for the OP that there are exceptions.
For example, while Deloitte overall is much weaker, they do have a turnaround/reorganization group that is quite good. I actually have a friend who left Bain to join Deloitte because Bain didn't do that sort of work. And buyside firms definitely recruit out of that group. But I agree that general consulting at Deloitte is not in the same ballpark at M/B/B, or the "2nd tier" firms.
Likewise, if you're dealing with consulting focused on financial services, McKinsey and Oliver Wyman are in a league of their own. Look at risk, for example. Only those 2 have risk groups. BCG is working frantically to build one out, but not much is happening at Bain, Booz, etc. And to be honest, Oliver Wyman is probably more respected within financial services than McKinsey. McKinsey has the name and prestige, but almost every single person I know who has hired both firms has had nothing but positive things to say about the quality of Oliver Wyman's work.
My point is just that while overall firm reputations definitely matter, you have to keep in mind niche areas or specialty groups. No one tends to look at that while you're in school, but once you've spent a good number of years working you'll realize how much those things matter.
It's similar to finance--Goldman is great, but if Goldman sucks in the product area you focus on, and some other bank is better, say BofAML, then you go to the bank with the better desk. You'll make more money that way, and once you start to focus on a particular area, believe me, everyone who works in that area knows who is best, and that it doesn't always follow general firm prestige exactly. Overall firm prestige is very important early in your career, but it fades as time moves on and once you start to specialize.
Absolutely agree. Great post.
While I sort of agree, comparing Deloitte to Bain is really a stretch, your friend must have had bad reviews or something, no sane person would do that. Also this statement "And buyside firms definitely recruit out of that group" is false, maybe some very small shops do, but I've never heard of anyone from that practice at any of the Megafunds or good mid market funds.
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Typically about 115-125K all inclusive (bonus + sign on + base after 2 years at the firm) at all firms. MBA numbers are significantly higher at about 175K all inclusive
Deloitte is not a "top shop"
Thanks for the numbers!
However, what do you have against Deloitte man! Everyone I have talked to regards it as one of the best after MBB (and these are MBA students at top 10 business schools, some consultants at OW, Booz and LEK...). Now either their perception is totally wrong or I have been deceived!! :P
I don't have anything against Deloitte, It's just nowhere near as good a firm as you seem to think it is; it is a third tier management consulting firm. They mass recruit and aren't the least bit selective. The work they do is more "process" oriented than strategic.
Also Buyside shops (PE, HF and VC) would almost never recruit a Deloitte employee
Most people on this board would agree, someone else care to comment?
I agree entirely. Deloitte are 3rd tier.
In my opinion, the leading strat houses (so the ones mentioned: MBB, Booz, OW, Monitor) make their money through original ideas/analysis (i.e. talent), whereas Deloitte make their money through implementation of standardised package solutions (i.e. manpower), the classic example being Shared Services Centres.
I dont know where you get this info from, but there is no support for this. I agree they have been recruiting a lot lately, but thats to increase business. Think of it, why would they hire so many people if they are not getting many projects to work on? Now you will say they are not 'strategy' projects, but again it comes under S&O and their recent mantra has been 'Strategy with Implementation', which is helping them get a lot of business lately. Obviously not up there with MBB, they are most definitely one of the top 2nd tier firms...
Deloitte use the name "strategy" purely for PR purposes. Mmonkey is entirely right, it isn't real strategy consulting. And you make it sound like "implementation" is a good thing. In reality, this is simply doing the mediocre legwork for companies, contracting Deloitte like cyclical labour.
Let's just agree to disagree
Added: actually forget I said that
Haha..cool! I just wonder why the perceptions of various people differ so much.
mmonkey is right. Deloitte is third tier and not really that selective.
Ok, since you keep chalking it up to "perceptions" I think you need to understand a few things
Recruiting:
Exit opportunities
Type of work/charges
Bottom line: People work at Deloitte if they don't have a choice!
Didn't want to do this, but you're obviously trolling for Deloitte
Thanks!
someone sticky this
even though i bet this will decrease the posts in consulting forum by 2/3
Everything Mmonkey said is absolutely dead on. Deloitte is a good firm, but it is 3rd tier. First tier M/B/B, second tier OW / Monitor / Booz / (maybe) LEK, and Deloitte is squarely in 3rd Tier, regardless of what Vault ranking says. Nothing to be ashamed of, it's still a very good firm to work for, but it's 3rd tier. I have never heard of someone turning down a job at any of the 1st or 2nd tier firms listed above, for a comparable position at Deloitte. Not saying it's impossible, but I have never heard of one.
As far as Shared Services Center is concerned, Bain uses it too
http://www.bain.com/management_tools/tools_shared_service.asp?groupCode…
And how does everyone know Deloitte doesn't use their 'talent' to make money? Also, what is 'real' strategy? This seems like make believe for people working in MBB to try and distance themselves from other firms.
You sir are an idiot, Bain doesn't provide shared services centers, this is their study on how they work, LOL
MBB and other top strat houses do not need to distance themselves, its self fulfilling - they are the best firms, hence the best talent go there
Okay, If I take what you are saying, should I consider applying to Deloitte then? I am leaning towards consulting than I banking, but my eventual aim is to enter PE/VC/HF. I will obviously try for MBB, but if I dont get in, should I consider Deloitte if I get in there (will only consider S&O)?
If you want to do PE/HF/VC, definitely don't go to Deloitte. If you don't get MBB there are other great consulting firms you should be considering (names have been mentioned here and on other threads). Why are you pimping Deloitte so hard if you don't work there? seems really irrational
Thats really because many of my friends at b-schools really told me great things about it(most of them dont even work there).. I dont know its weird, and I had developed such a nice image of the firm... I'll actually forward this thread to them...
So you are saying if I dont go to MBB, and lets say Booz/Monitor etc, and I end up getting Deloitte, there is no way I could enter buy side? Unless I go to a top b school that is...
B school doesn't help with buyside recruiting unless you were in PE before b school (or top consulting/bulge bracket - still a slim chance). Buyside after Deloitte is very very difficult (nothing is impossible) and at a megafund would be borderline impossible.
Thanks for the insights!
No problem, hope they help
^^ +1
I agree with most of what's on here generally as far as overall firm reputations, but I just wanted to point out for the OP that there are exceptions.
For example, while Deloitte overall is much weaker, they do have a turnaround/reorganization group that is quite good. I actually have a friend who left Bain to join Deloitte because Bain didn't do that sort of work. And buyside firms definitely recruit out of that group. But I agree that general consulting at Deloitte is not in the same ballpark at M/B/B, or the "2nd tier" firms.
Likewise, if you're dealing with consulting focused on financial services, McKinsey and Oliver Wyman are in a league of their own. Look at risk, for example. Only those 2 have risk groups. BCG is working frantically to build one out, but not much is happening at Bain, Booz, etc. And to be honest, Oliver Wyman is probably more respected within financial services than McKinsey. McKinsey has the name and prestige, but almost every single person I know who has hired both firms has had nothing but positive things to say about the quality of Oliver Wyman's work.
My point is just that while overall firm reputations definitely matter, you have to keep in mind niche areas or specialty groups. No one tends to look at that while you're in school, but once you've spent a good number of years working you'll realize how much those things matter.
It's similar to finance--Goldman is great, but if Goldman sucks in the product area you focus on, and some other bank is better, say BofAML, then you go to the bank with the better desk. You'll make more money that way, and once you start to focus on a particular area, believe me, everyone who works in that area knows who is best, and that it doesn't always follow general firm prestige exactly. Overall firm prestige is very important early in your career, but it fades as time moves on and once you start to specialize.
Absolutely agree. Great post.
While I sort of agree, comparing Deloitte to Bain is really a stretch, your friend must have had bad reviews or something, no sane person would do that. Also this statement "And buyside firms definitely recruit out of that group" is false, maybe some very small shops do, but I've never heard of anyone from that practice at any of the Megafunds or good mid market funds.
Eum eum sed saepe. Quasi dolores ducimus dolor iste laboriosam. Fuga ipsum est illo delectus. Tenetur adipisci sint voluptate.
Aliquid consequuntur et occaecati ipsa aut ex. Perspiciatis quaerat quas fuga dicta. Ipsum ut repellendus omnis rem voluptatem laborum. Inventore in nulla minima ad aut reprehenderit. Ullam et modi impedit sequi vel dicta minus. Et omnis impedit dicta cum vel. Laudantium occaecati fugit blanditiis alias dicta.
Facere quia reiciendis corrupti suscipit et sit delectus nihil. Vitae provident eius facere explicabo.
Ullam temporibus sequi at sequi voluptatem. Aliquid officia ullam esse molestiae animi. Eum expedita quas magnam corporis sequi.
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