Pre-mba salaries + bonus

ibanker88's picture
Rank: Monkey | banana points 40

What are the figures like for a pre-mba (after 1-2 years at analyst level) at MBB, Deloitte, OW, Booz, and other top shops? Does it compare to post mba numbers?

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Comments (30)

Feb 23, 2010

Typically about 115-125K all inclusive (bonus + sign on + base after 2 years at the firm) at all firms. MBA numbers are significantly higher at about 175K all inclusive

Deloitte is not a "top shop"

Feb 21, 2010

Thanks for the numbers!

However, what do you have against Deloitte man! Everyone I have talked to regards it as one of the best after MBB (and these are MBA students at top 10 business schools, some consultants at OW, Booz and LEK...). Now either their perception is totally wrong or I have been deceived!! :P

Feb 23, 2010

I don't have anything against Deloitte, It's just nowhere near as good a firm as you seem to think it is; it is a third tier management consulting firm. They mass recruit and aren't the least bit selective. The work they do is more "process" oriented than strategic.

Also Buyside shops (PE, HF and VC) would almost never recruit a Deloitte employee

Most people on this board would agree, someone else care to comment?

Feb 23, 2010
mmonkey:

I don't have anything against Deloitte, It's just nowhere near as good a firm as you seem to think it is; it is a third tier management consulting firm. They mass recruit and aren't the least bit selective. The work they do is more "process" oriented than strategic.

Also Buyside shops (PE, HF and VC) would almost never recruit a Deloitte employee

Most people on this board would agree, someone else care to comment?

I agree entirely. Deloitte are 3rd tier.

In my opinion, the leading strat houses (so the ones mentioned: MBB, Booz, OW, Monitor) make their money through original ideas/analysis (i.e. talent), whereas Deloitte make their money through implementation of standardised package solutions (i.e. manpower), the classic example being Shared Services Centres.

Feb 21, 2010

I dont know where you get this info from, but there is no support for this. I agree they have been recruiting a lot lately, but thats to increase business. Think of it, why would they hire so many people if they are not getting many projects to work on? Now you will say they are not 'strategy' projects, but again it comes under S&O and their recent mantra has been 'Strategy with Implementation', which is helping them get a lot of business lately. Obviously not up there with MBB, they are most definitely one of the top 2nd tier firms...

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Feb 23, 2010
ibanker88:

I dont know where you get this info from, but there is no support for this. I agree they have been recruiting a lot lately, but thats to increase business. Think of it, why would they hire so many people if they are not getting many projects to work on? Now you will say they are not 'strategy' projects, but again it comes under S&O and their recent mantra has been 'Strategy with Implementation', which is helping them get a lot of business lately. Obviously not up there with MBB, they are most definitely one of the top 2nd tier firms...

Deloitte use the name "strategy" purely for PR purposes. Mmonkey is entirely right, it isn't real strategy consulting. And you make it sound like "implementation" is a good thing. In reality, this is simply doing the mediocre legwork for companies, contracting Deloitte like cyclical labour.

Feb 23, 2010

Let's just agree to disagree

Added: actually forget I said that

Feb 21, 2010

Haha..cool! I just wonder why the perceptions of various people differ so much.

Feb 23, 2010
ibanker88:

Haha..cool! I just wonder why the perceptions of various people differ so much.

mmonkey is right. Deloitte is third tier and not really that selective.

"I do not think there is any other quality so essential to success of any kind as the quality of perseverance. It overcom

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Feb 23, 2010

Ok, since you keep chalking it up to "perceptions" I think you need to understand a few things

Recruiting:

  1. MBB grab all the best talent first, the people who don't get MBB try to go to OW, Booz, LEK, Monitor (henceforth referred to as 2nd tier) etc
  2. 2nd tier firms like OW, Booz, LEK etc are very selective, they only visit the best schools and hire people who have performed well, they are actually quite similar to MBB but just don't have the same scale/prestige.
  3. Deloitte is not seen on parity with these firms, anyone seriously considering management consulting will only consider Deloitte after they have been rejected by ALL firms mentioned above. People at junior levels in Deloitte are people who didn't make any of the prior firms
  4. Deloitte is not selective, they go to most schools and will even hire people who have a very mediocre performance.

Exit opportunities

  1. The Buyside will recruit heavily from MBB, a little from 2nd tier firms but not from Deloitte (this is a FACT)
  2. Placement into B schools from MBB is excellent, 2nd tier firms while not as good as MBB place very well. B school placements out of Deloitte are similar to pretty much any mass recruiter out there (think Pwc, EY, KPMG etc), i.e., not great
  3. Corp development Headhunters specifically ask for MBB and maybe a few 2nd tier firms. I have never ever seen a headhunter look for a Deloitte employee (just check out glocap right now if you want proof)

Type of work/charges

  1. The pure strategy houses perform only strategic work, because implementation is
    ::a. Much cheaper (you have to charge less for it, because the market is filled with firms that do it)
    ::b. Mundane, you don't need a well educated, smart resourceful person to perform it
  2. Deloitte's billing rates are MUCH lower than all other firms mentioned on this thread, I've seen bids from Deloitte and they are a much cheaper firm to hire
  3. At the lower levels at Deloitte, employees are usually just workhorses and have little to no impact on the direction/strategy of the case. A look through reviews at any consulting forum will support this
  4. Deloitte's revenue per employee is abysmally low compared to other top consulting firms

Bottom line: People work at Deloitte if they don't have a choice!

Didn't want to do this, but you're obviously trolling for Deloitte

Thanks!

Feb 24, 2010
mmonkey:

Ok, since you keep chalking it up to "perceptions" I think you need to understand a few things

Recruiting:

  1. MBB grab all the best talent first, the people who don't get MBB try to go to OW, Booz, LEK, Monitor (henceforth referred to as 2nd tier) etc
  2. 2nd tier firms like OW, Booz, LEK etc are very selective, they only visit the best schools and hire people who have performed well, they are actually quite similar to MBB but just don't have the same scale/prestige.
  3. Deloitte is not seen on parity with these firms, anyone seriously considering management consulting will only consider Deloitte after they have been rejected by ALL firms mentioned above. People at junior levels in Deloitte are people who didn't make any of the prior firms
  4. Deloitte is not selective, they go to most schools and will even hire people who have a very mediocre performance.

Exit opportunities

  1. The Buyside will recruit heavily from MBB, a little from 2nd tier firms but not from Deloitte (this is a FACT)
  2. Placement into B schools from MBB is excellent, 2nd tier firms while not as good as MBB place very well. B school placements out of Deloitte are similar to pretty much any mass recruiter out there (think Pwc, EY, KPMG etc), i.e., not great
  3. Corp development Headhunters specifically ask for MBB and maybe a few 2nd tier firms. I have never ever seen a headhunter look for a Deloitte employee (just check out glocap right now if you want proof)

Type of work/charges

  1. The pure strategy houses perform only strategic work, because implementation is
    ::a. Much cheaper (you have to charge less for it, because the market is filled with firms that do it)
    ::b. Mundane, you don't need a well educated, smart resourceful person to perform it
  2. Deloitte's billing rates are MUCH lower than all other firms mentioned on this thread, I've seen bids from Deloitte and they are a much cheaper firm to hire
  3. At the lower levels at Deloitte, employees are usually just workhorses and have little to no impact on the direction/strategy of the case. A look through reviews at any consulting forum will support this
  4. Deloitte's revenue per employee is abysmally low compared to other top consulting firms

Bottom line: People work at Deloitte if they don't have a choice!

Didn't want to do this, but you're obviously trolling for Deloitte

Thanks!

someone sticky this

even though i bet this will decrease the posts in consulting forum by 2/3

Feb 27, 2010
mmonkey:

Bottom line: People work at Deloitte if they don't have a choice!

Didn't want to do this, but you're obviously trolling for Deloitte

Thanks!

Everything Mmonkey said is absolutely dead on. Deloitte is a good firm, but it is 3rd tier. First tier M/B/B, second tier OW / Monitor / Booz / (maybe) LEK, and Deloitte is squarely in 3rd Tier, regardless of what Vault ranking says. Nothing to be ashamed of, it's still a very good firm to work for, but it's 3rd tier. I have never heard of someone turning down a job at any of the 1st or 2nd tier firms listed above, for a comparable position at Deloitte. Not saying it's impossible, but I have never heard of one.

Feb 21, 2010

As far as Shared Services Center is concerned, Bain uses it too

http://www.bain.com/management_tools/tools_shared_...
And how does everyone know Deloitte doesn't use their 'talent' to make money? Also, what is 'real' strategy? This seems like make believe for people working in MBB to try and distance themselves from other firms.

Feb 23, 2010
ibanker88:

As far as Shared Services Center is concerned, Bain uses it too

http://www.bain.com/management_tools/tools_shared_...
And how does everyone know Deloitte doesn't use their 'talent' to make money? Also, what is 'real' strategy? This seems like make believe for people working in MBB to try and distance themselves from other firms.

You sir are an idiot, Bain doesn't provide shared services centers, this is their study on how they work, LOL

MBB and other top strat houses do not need to distance themselves, its self fulfilling - they are the best firms, hence the best talent go there

Feb 21, 2010

Okay, If I take what you are saying, should I consider applying to Deloitte then? I am leaning towards consulting than I banking, but my eventual aim is to enter PE/VC/HF. I will obviously try for MBB, but if I dont get in, should I consider Deloitte if I get in there (will only consider S&O)?

Feb 23, 2010

If you want to do PE/HF/VC, definitely don't go to Deloitte. If you don't get MBB there are other great consulting firms you should be considering (names have been mentioned here and on other threads). Why are you pimping Deloitte so hard if you don't work there? seems really irrational

Feb 21, 2010

Thats really because many of my friends at b-schools really told me great things about it(most of them dont even work there).. I dont know its weird, and I had developed such a nice image of the firm... I'll actually forward this thread to them...

So you are saying if I dont go to MBB, and lets say Booz/Monitor etc, and I end up getting Deloitte, there is no way I could enter buy side? Unless I go to a top b school that is...

Feb 23, 2010

B school doesn't help with buyside recruiting unless you were in PE before b school (or top consulting/bulge bracket - still a slim chance). Buyside after Deloitte is very very difficult (nothing is impossible) and at a megafund would be borderline impossible.

Feb 21, 2010

Thanks for the insights!

Feb 23, 2010
ibanker88:

Thanks for the insights!

No problem, hope they help

Feb 24, 2010

^^ +1

Feb 26, 2010

I agree with most of what's on here generally as far as overall firm reputations, but I just wanted to point out for the OP that there are exceptions.

For example, while Deloitte overall is much weaker, they do have a turnaround/reorganization group that is quite good. I actually have a friend who left Bain to join Deloitte because Bain didn't do that sort of work. And buyside firms definitely recruit out of that group. But I agree that general consulting at Deloitte is not in the same ballpark at M/B/B, or the "2nd tier" firms.

Likewise, if you're dealing with consulting focused on financial services, McKinsey and Oliver Wyman are in a league of their own. Look at risk, for example. Only those 2 have risk groups. BCG is working frantically to build one out, but not much is happening at Bain, Booz, etc. And to be honest, Oliver Wyman is probably more respected within financial services than McKinsey. McKinsey has the name and prestige, but almost every single person I know who has hired both firms has had nothing but positive things to say about the quality of Oliver Wyman's work.

My point is just that while overall firm reputations definitely matter, you have to keep in mind niche areas or specialty groups. No one tends to look at that while you're in school, but once you've spent a good number of years working you'll realize how much those things matter.

It's similar to finance--Goldman is great, but if Goldman sucks in the product area you focus on, and some other bank is better, say BofAML, then you go to the bank with the better desk. You'll make more money that way, and once you start to focus on a particular area, believe me, everyone who works in that area knows who is best, and that it doesn't always follow general firm prestige exactly. Overall firm prestige is very important early in your career, but it fades as time moves on and once you start to specialize.

Feb 23, 2010
skins1:

I agree with most of what's on here generally as far as overall firm reputations, but I just wanted to point out for the OP that there are exceptions.

For example, while Deloitte overall is much weaker, they do have a turnaround/reorganization group that is quite good. I actually have a friend who left Bain to join Deloitte because Bain didn't do that sort of work. And buyside firms definitely recruit out of that group. But I agree that general consulting at Deloitte is not in the same ballpark at M/B/B, or the "2nd tier" firms.

Likewise, if you're dealing with consulting focused on financial services, McKinsey and Oliver Wyman are in a league of their own. Look at risk, for example. Only those 2 have risk groups. BCG is working frantically to build one out, but not much is happening at Bain, Booz, etc. And to be honest, Oliver Wyman is probably more respected within financial services than McKinsey. McKinsey has the name and prestige, but almost every single person I know who has hired both firms has had nothing but positive things to say about the quality of Oliver Wyman's work.

My point is just that while overall firm reputations definitely matter, you have to keep in mind niche areas or specialty groups. No one tends to look at that while you're in school, but once you've spent a good number of years working you'll realize how much those things matter.

It's similar to finance--Goldman is great, but if Goldman sucks in the product area you focus on, and some other bank is better, say BofAML, then you go to the bank with the better desk. You'll make more money that way, and once you start to focus on a particular area, believe me, everyone who works in that area knows who is best, and that it doesn't always follow general firm prestige exactly. Overall firm prestige is very important early in your career, but it fades as time moves on and once you start to specialize.

Absolutely agree. Great post.

Feb 23, 2010
PorcineAviation:
skins1:

I agree with most of what's on here generally as far as overall firm reputations, but I just wanted to point out for the OP that there are exceptions.

For example, while Deloitte overall is much weaker, they do have a turnaround/reorganization group that is quite good. I actually have a friend who left Bain to join Deloitte because Bain didn't do that sort of work. And buyside firms definitely recruit out of that group. But I agree that general consulting at Deloitte is not in the same ballpark at M/B/B, or the "2nd tier" firms.

Likewise, if you're dealing with consulting focused on financial services, McKinsey and Oliver Wyman are in a league of their own. Look at risk, for example. Only those 2 have risk groups. BCG is working frantically to build one out, but not much is happening at Bain, Booz, etc. And to be honest, Oliver Wyman is probably more respected within financial services than McKinsey. McKinsey has the name and prestige, but almost every single person I know who has hired both firms has had nothing but positive things to say about the quality of Oliver Wyman's work.

My point is just that while overall firm reputations definitely matter, you have to keep in mind niche areas or specialty groups. No one tends to look at that while you're in school, but once you've spent a good number of years working you'll realize how much those things matter.

It's similar to finance--Goldman is great, but if Goldman sucks in the product area you focus on, and some other bank is better, say BofAML, then you go to the bank with the better desk. You'll make more money that way, and once you start to focus on a particular area, believe me, everyone who works in that area knows who is best, and that it doesn't always follow general firm prestige exactly. Overall firm prestige is very important early in your career, but it fades as time moves on and once you start to specialize.

Absolutely agree. Great post.

While I sort of agree, comparing Deloitte to Bain is really a stretch, your friend must have had bad reviews or something, no sane person would do that. Also this statement "And buyside firms definitely recruit out of that group" is false, maybe some very small shops do, but I've never heard of anyone from that practice at any of the Megafunds or good mid market funds.

Feb 23, 2010
mmonkey:
PorcineAviation:
skins1:

I agree with most of what's on here generally as far as overall firm reputations, but I just wanted to point out for the OP that there are exceptions.

For example, while Deloitte overall is much weaker, they do have a turnaround/reorganization group that is quite good. I actually have a friend who left Bain to join Deloitte because Bain didn't do that sort of work. And buyside firms definitely recruit out of that group. But I agree that general consulting at Deloitte is not in the same ballpark at M/B/B, or the "2nd tier" firms.

Likewise, if you're dealing with consulting focused on financial services, McKinsey and Oliver Wyman are in a league of their own. Look at risk, for example. Only those 2 have risk groups. BCG is working frantically to build one out, but not much is happening at Bain, Booz, etc. And to be honest, Oliver Wyman is probably more respected within financial services than McKinsey. McKinsey has the name and prestige, but almost every single person I know who has hired both firms has had nothing but positive things to say about the quality of Oliver Wyman's work.

My point is just that while overall firm reputations definitely matter, you have to keep in mind niche areas or specialty groups. No one tends to look at that while you're in school, but once you've spent a good number of years working you'll realize how much those things matter.

It's similar to finance--Goldman is great, but if Goldman sucks in the product area you focus on, and some other bank is better, say BofAML, then you go to the bank with the better desk. You'll make more money that way, and once you start to focus on a particular area, believe me, everyone who works in that area knows who is best, and that it doesn't always follow general firm prestige exactly. Overall firm prestige is very important early in your career, but it fades as time moves on and once you start to specialize.

Absolutely agree. Great post.

While I sort of agree, comparing Deloitte to Bain is really a stretch, your friend must have had bad reviews or something, no sane person would do that. Also this statement "And buyside firms definitely recruit out of that group" is false, maybe some very small shops do, but I've never heard of anyone from that practice at any of the Megafunds or good mid market funds.

I agree that as a new analyst or associate Bain and Deloitte are miles apart, but I think his point is valid when you consider his friend was far enough along the path to be specialised in turnaround. For experienced consultants, opportunity and fit tend to dominate brand name and broad strength in job decisions.

Feb 23, 2010
PorcineAviation:
mmonkey:
PorcineAviation:
skins1:

I agree with most of what's on here generally as far as overall firm reputations, but I just wanted to point out for the OP that there are exceptions.

For example, while Deloitte overall is much weaker, they do have a turnaround/reorganization group that is quite good. I actually have a friend who left Bain to join Deloitte because Bain didn't do that sort of work. And buyside firms definitely recruit out of that group. But I agree that general consulting at Deloitte is not in the same ballpark at M/B/B, or the "2nd tier" firms.

Likewise, if you're dealing with consulting focused on financial services, McKinsey and Oliver Wyman are in a league of their own. Look at risk, for example. Only those 2 have risk groups. BCG is working frantically to build one out, but not much is happening at Bain, Booz, etc. And to be honest, Oliver Wyman is probably more respected within financial services than McKinsey. McKinsey has the name and prestige, but almost every single person I know who has hired both firms has had nothing but positive things to say about the quality of Oliver Wyman's work.

My point is just that while overall firm reputations definitely matter, you have to keep in mind niche areas or specialty groups. No one tends to look at that while you're in school, but once you've spent a good number of years working you'll realize how much those things matter.

It's similar to finance--Goldman is great, but if Goldman sucks in the product area you focus on, and some other bank is better, say BofAML, then you go to the bank with the better desk. You'll make more money that way, and once you start to focus on a particular area, believe me, everyone who works in that area knows who is best, and that it doesn't always follow general firm prestige exactly. Overall firm prestige is very important early in your career, but it fades as time moves on and once you start to specialize.

Absolutely agree. Great post.

While I sort of agree, comparing Deloitte to Bain is really a stretch, your friend must have had bad reviews or something, no sane person would do that. Also this statement "And buyside firms definitely recruit out of that group" is false, maybe some very small shops do, but I've never heard of anyone from that practice at any of the Megafunds or good mid market funds.

I agree that as a new analyst or associate Bain and Deloitte are miles apart, but I think his point is valid when you consider his friend was far enough along the path to be specialised in turnaround. For experienced consultants, opportunity and fit tend to dominate brand name and broad strength in job decisions.

Agreed, although I don't really see the rationale personally. I was more concerned with the claim about buy-side exits, which really isn't true.

Feb 26, 2010

You are missing my point. He left Bain because Bain does not do turnaround work. So if he wanted to focus on that, the only consulting firm at which to do that was Deloitte.

And I'm kind of curious what exactly your credentials are that you are able to make such grand, overarching statements on everything. Where did you get your MBA? How many years of work experience do you have and in how many industries?

I'm asking because once you are more than a few years out of ugrad you start to realize that the world is much bigger than just 3 or 4 well-known career paths, and 8-10 well-known firms.

I know of many people who are working at firms you have probably never even heard of that are bringing in more money than you can imagine. While we tend to run towards the Goldmans and McKinseys of the world because of the prestige, there are many, many more opportunities outside of those firms.

Imagine if you took an offer at Paulson & Co in mid-2007. I bet you there would of been plenty of people mocking your decision and asking why you didn't go to a bigger-name firm like SAC, Citadel, etc. Well, we all know how that turned out....

Feb 23, 2010
skins1:

You are missing my point. He left Bain because Bain does not do turnaround work. So if he wanted to focus on that, the only consulting firm at which to do that was Deloitte.

And I'm kind of curious what exactly your credentials are that you are able to make such grand, overarching statements on everything. Where did you get your MBA? How many years of work experience do you have and in how many industries?

I'm asking because once you are more than a few years out of ugrad you start to realize that the world is much bigger than just 3 or 4 well-known career paths, and 8-10 well-known firms.

I know of many people who are working at firms you have probably never even heard of that are bringing in more money than you can imagine. While we tend to run towards the Goldmans and McKinseys of the world because of the prestige, there are many, many more opportunities outside of those firms.

Imagine if you took an offer at Paulson & Co in mid-2007. I bet you there would of been plenty of people mocking your decision and asking why you didn't go to a bigger-name firm like SAC, Citadel, etc. Well, we all know how that turned out....

Studied at targets, don't want to reveal which one

worked at 2 MBB firms, currently at a Megafund and have participated on several deals (both proprietary and club deals)

Your logic while correct is not applicable to my assertion. Paulson is a newer company and an Elite firm. Bain, BCG, Mckinsey and Deloitte have been around for ages and my comments refer to run rate exits and opportunities therein.

Also all of MBB do turnaround work. Alix partners, Alavarez and Marsal also have very well know restructuring based turnaround practices. Deloitte definitely isn't the only consulting firm that has a turnaround practice

Feb 26, 2010
Feb 26, 2010