WSO Podcast | E234: Office Dating - Apollo from NonTarget - ZERO Social Skills | Weekly Wrapup #4
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0:00 1st Year Asking Out 2nd Year??
9:23 How To Deal With Associate With ZERO Social Skills?
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WSO Podcast Episode 234 Transcript:
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:04] Welcome to the WSO weekly wrap up where I talk with my team about the five most trending discussions in the Wall Street Oasis community. Enjoy. Welcome to another episode of the weekly wrap-up. It is February 9th. We got about, I think, three topics we're going to cover today that were trending in the community. Matt, take it away.
Matthew: [00:00:24] Sure. So this first one is definitely an interesting one. I've probably been on a lot of individuals' minds when joining their first role out of university here, getting into the workforce. But first question asked in the forums was what are your thoughts on a first-year asking out a second year mixing romance with your professional career? Pat, thoughts on this one?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:48] Well, I may or may not have had a similar story like this for myself when I was in banking. Know it's tough when you're working long hours. You don't have a lot of time to meet people outside. So I think it's pretty natural. I think I'd be more nervous if. He or she was a second year trying to date like someone junior to them. I think there's more risk there. But yeah, I mean, I think the standard argument here is just always be very, very careful and tread cautiously. And Nabil, have you ever dated somebody from the workplace?
Nabil: [00:01:22] No, not from the same workplace. Too risky? No.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:26] How about you, Matt, at Oracle? Were you? Were you?
Matthew: [00:01:29] No, never. I mean, obviously, the tech industry is going to be a lot more relax than the finance industry. But yeah. Never crossed my mind to engage in something like that. Think it's someone wrote in the forums exactly what I'm thinking. Don't shit where you eat and think that could be applied in a lot of different places. But for my understanding, I think some firms actually have like internal policies around that, if I'm not mistaken. Right. Where they don't allow relationships. I mean, it's obviously,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:57] Yeah, you could be close.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:59] It doesn't stop it. I mean, it's super common, especially in like careers where you're spending 80 hours a week like in the same office and, you know, late nights and you're exhausted. You're not going out to a bar after. So some people do have end up in those relationships. I know just from my analyst class alone like I think one of the female analysts ended up starting dating like an MD or a director at the time. And that was awkward.
Matthew: [00:02:25] Oh, wow.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:26] Yeah, he was he was bold to do that. And then, yeah, let's just say there was some other stuff going on. But yeah.
Matthew: [00:02:36] I think if you're going to do it, you gotta be 100% take it 100% serious. You can't kind of do it half-assed because you're just opening the door to too many issues in the future, Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:47] A lot of guys, they can keep it under control and it'll be cool and everyone's cool. And then until it's not cool, until either he or she wants you to stop, like advance the advance or person.
Matthew: [00:03:00] Until the next analyst class comes in next summer. Feels like it feels like college university all over again, right? That's what it is. So, yeah, I think yeah, just some other responses that we saw there. Definitely. If you are going to try to engage in a relationship, I found this one funny. Don't flirt through work channels, so definitely don't do it on Slack teams or email. Um, I guess if you're going to try to do something like this, you know, go grab a coffee at the same time in the kitchen at the office, maybe go grab lunch together. Um, but if you're sending emails across to one another, I think that's just, again, a recipe for disaster there. You're literally having everything written in stone, I guess, so to speak, so the organization can see because I assume they're monitoring everything.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:50] Yeah, I assume reading all of your emails, basically. Yeah. It's always good advice. Even if you're writing, if you're writing on your work computer, even in your personal email, they could be tracking your keystrokes and stuff like that. So just assume that they are. Yeah. So yeah, better to keep it on personal phone, maybe WhatsApp or something like that.
Matthew: [00:04:08] Or a burner phone. A burner phone.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:11] Yeah, exactly.
Matthew: [00:04:13] Definitely, a funny one. But yeah. Next topic up here, another great, interesting topic, nonetheless, right up the alley of Wall Street Oasis here. What are the odds of, you know, a banker coming from a non-target school making it to a giant such as the Apollo's of the world or the KKR’s of the world? I know you spent some time in banking, made the jump to any insight onto that? What are the odds look like for someone to make that jump nowadays?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:39] I think the odds are pretty tough. And you see this play out in our university statistics in private equity, you'll notice that like certain banks pull from certain target universities and it's broadened over the last decade. So like banks are actually much more open to pulling kids from like really top state school finance programs. And even like the top banks are really pulling more and more from there. But you still see a little bit of like the undergrad prestige of your institution matter on in the private equity recruiting. And you still see a skew heavily towards like the Ivies and the top targets. That being said, like it is, I think opening up more since, you know, just naturally the feeders from banks are opening up more. So yeah, I think it's hard, but I never say anything is impossible. Like if, you know, people were talking about like act scores, you know, that doesn't really matter so much. It's really your experience. The bigger problem now is because recruiting happens almost right after you hit the desk. A lot of the PE firms are kind of just using school GPA still and like what bank you ended up getting into as the proxy of whether you're going to be a good associate or not, which kind of sucks. It's bullshit, but it's kind of the easier way. And then the recruiters use the same proxies. So it's kind of tough.
Matthew: [00:05:58] It's interesting. Guess what we saw from the industry the past few years? It looks like, you know, a lot of the middle market shops, boutique shops are struggling for talent, but it seems like it's all stemming from the bulge brackets. I guess they're still getting their ways with who they want. But it's been interesting that they haven't even it doesn't seem like they've budged too much in terms of maybe especially like the KKR of the world, maybe grabbing people from, um, you know, from those nontraditional backgrounds. And I guess it's just still because there's still, you know, demand for people that want to go into those roles in PE and naturally at those larger firms maybe there's not there's still they're hiring quite a bit, but that demand is still being filled by the students and the people that want to make it in there. Right. So they haven't really adjusted too much. But I think that's that's being really seen across like some great middle market shops, I think have definitely opened their doors to some more.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:47] It's happening in the mega-funds, too. It's just not as it's not as pronounced as the banks. So like it's a little bit slower. You know, there's kids from Non-targets with low GPAs breaking into mega funds. Sure. It's just more of like the exception than the rule. It's really hard. And you got to kind of like somebody said in the forums, you got to kind of know somebody. You have to have connections or like if you're not in Redfin or sponsors that like or city, it's going to be tough to break into like KKR or Apollo and those groups. So...
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:15] Yeah, it's tough.
Matthew: [00:07:17] Interesting. And any thoughts out of you on this one here?
Nabil: [00:07:21] Not really. Uh, because I didn't go that go that route, Right? Banking, private equity.
Matthew: [00:07:28] Well, Pat, here, have a question for you on this topic before we move off it here. Is it is it really worth it to make the jump to like the Apollo's of the world KKR, or do you think there's still great opportunities at these middle market shops? Maybe salaries might not be the exact same, but in terms of even just like exit ops out of PE, then do these names really still, you know, are they that important to get that for like the Apollo saviors of the world or?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:50] I think it looks really super impressive if you're at the top shops. I think they're definitely more of a banking 2.0, um, scenario where you're still going to be a cog in the wheel and working super long hours and the expectations are super high. You're going to be paid really well. I mean upwards of I think like I think some of them guarantee like almost 400,000 for like, you know, so just like, you know, something crazy. But like again, it's a lot of people are turning and turning out of that job in a year and a half, two years. And they just, you know, they never want to go back or they end up going downstream where there's a little bit more work-life eventually because imagine doing like two full years of banking at a sweaty shop and then you get to like PE, you're getting paid a lot. Probably saving a lot, too, because you have no time to spend. Yeah.
Matthew: [00:08:36] Well, it depends where you're living, right? If you're living in NYC, you got a big rent bill. Rent bill to pay every month. Yeah. So live with the lifestyle too. But yeah, it's interesting. I guess sign away five years of your life for the money but then you miss out on a lot of the things that you could have done as a younger individual right you don't get time back. So yeah, half.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:55] Of your half of year 20 is gone by the time you finish that. I mean, it does set you up nicely, but it's not like if you go to a great middle market or upper middle market fund, a lot of the same opportunities are still there. I think it's at that point it's going to be really about like how good you are about running a process, about, you know, can you run diligence because the size of the deals doesn't matter as much as the reps you're getting. Yeah. So, so let's say.
Matthew: [00:09:22] Interesting insight. Well, move on to the last one here. This one's actually one that I find interesting because I personally dislike dealing with people that don't have social skills, especially coming from a sales background. I enjoy speaking with people all the time. I find it incredibly difficult to talk with people that don't have social skills or at least up to par with the average. So one of the topics that we saw in the forums was how to deal with an associate with zero social skills. The ability you want to handle this one here is providing some.
Nabil: [00:09:52] Sure. Is it like an analyst like asking it or is it like someone's senior? I'm guessing it's more analyst, right?
Matthew: [00:09:58] It's analysts dealing with their associate is what the topic was about here. So you're superior is not great in terms of socializing or just even got it, so.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:08] He's throwing people under the bus replying all to like group emails being like you didn't do this.
Nabil: [00:10:13] Like that just sucks. Like that just means you can't what can you really do? Like you can't just be like, I guess go out and like try to respond the same way. It just doesn't come off well, right? I guess you just got to be good at I mean. Take it, but like, handle it like, in a nice way so it doesn't look bad, especially when, like, when their superiors probably come back and look and then have like, all those, uh, everything mapped out. Nothing. Everything documented. If you are getting thrown under the bus, that kind of stuff, pretty much it's more office politics than anything else right at that point.
Matthew: [00:10:54] I feel like, It's easier said than done. I feel like especially in like a high-stress job, like banking, if you're just going to keep taking it, you're eventually just going to break, right? That's the where it's like, especially if someone's being like a, like, you know, replying all making you look bad. Where does this analyst do? They can't go up to a VP because that looks horrible, right? You also can't like your associates, the one that's doing this to you. If you want to get promoted, you have to kind of, you know, stay calm, do your job, just let it kind of brush over your shoulder, but could just see how it's, you know, eventually you're going to crack. If I have a high-stress job.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:30] I have advice for this on how to handle this. So, um, I was in a pretty similar situation with an associate that was pretty bad. It was. It wasn't that they were throwing under the bus, but it was more like they would just push all the work down and then leave. And so there was no guidance. And, you know, you say you can't work, you know, you can't talk to a VP. I disagree. I think you can talk to and I think in these cases, like when they start realizing that you're doing all the work, it doesn't mean you're not keeping them in the loop, the associate, rather. But, you know, it becomes pretty obvious if it's more like just being someone who's super brash and like making you look bad. Guess what? The VPs and MDs are not stupid. They probably realize this person super brash and they've probably done it to other analysts before. So being mature about it and not fighting back or replying all of the email and just talking to them and be like, Hey, I noticed, um, blah blah blah, they're probably going to say, Don't worry about it, you're doing fine. Like, keep it up. You know, just checking in with them I think would be good. That's the first point. The second point is trying to understand and, um, like how different brains work, right? So you may be dealing with some intelligence or you may be dealing with somebody on the spectrum who just is more direct and doesn't sugarcoat anything and doesn't doesn't play any office politics.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:47] So they'll call you out if you make a mistake in front of everybody, they don't give they don't give a shit. And so, like understanding that it's not necessarily that they don't like you or that they just may just be like super direct and have no EQ around delivering something softly or doing it privately. They just may have literally no care for it and no skills around it. So like almost even just talking to them directly can sometimes be more helpful and not being scared to say, Oh, I noticed you did this. Like next time do you mind coming to me when there's something, when there's an error? Just because I'd like to, you know, I'd like to improve. And I think you have a lot of skills to offer me. And I think if we can settle that privately, you know, I think you sending that made me look bad. And I'd appreciate that because I'm trying to make a good impression. I'm still new here and da da da da. Um.
Matthew: [00:13:37] That way. So what you're suggesting is talk to the associate first. Yeah. Let them know where you're coming from again, because it could be to your point where, you know, they might not even recognize what they're doing. Um, if it continues happening, then guess you're saying to approach the VP MDs. If somebody just share your thoughts but, you don't want to also come across as like the person that's whining, right? Or it's like you're just so it's like if you're going to do this, you do it in a calm manner. Make sure you're in a good headspace. You're not like coming off of like you just he or she just ticked you off and now you're running there and you're all heated or, you know, it's more if anything, let a few days pass, go to them like in a very calm manner. And just, I guess, explain what you dislike about what's going on and ask for their feedback. Also, I think would probably be important too, you know, to the VP or MD like how do I go about handling this situation? Um, rather than maybe asking them to handle it. That's probably not something they want to do because they don't want to deal with what they would maybe think is like just childish politics. Um, so, so maybe like, how would you suggest I go about handling this at the end of day? It's something that you're going to have to fix and you have your.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:45] EQ has to be good enough to know the type of person you're dealing with, whether it's a narcissistic, crazy, political like backstabbing person, or whether it's a person who's just like not neurotypical and is like super awkward and has no EQ. Like it's a kind of a different approach if the person is really trying to just sabotage and is really just a nasty narcissist, then like you got to be a little bit more aggressive and you having a direct conversation with them isn't going to change what they're going to do. They're going to keep doing it. And, you know, it's going to be tough. It's going to be tough.
Nabil: [00:15:13] Other things like networking, right, with everyone, like making sure like everyone knows you're like, uh, working hard and that kind of stuff. If you have that impression from the get-go, I don't think it becomes a big problem anyway, especially with the seniors.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:25] So it's tough. The associate was talking about got fired within six months.
Nabil: [00:15:30] Oh, wow.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:31] Yeah. Mean usually reputation kind of goes around, you know when you're ducking out at 5:00 to go to the gym for 2.5 hours every day.
Matthew: [00:15:38] Well, that's almost like the guy that we spoke about a few weeks ago, that ran out to the craps table. Craps tables in Vegas. Right.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:44] That was no that was even worse. That was like his buddy got him the job and he takes off. I don't know. That's pretty bad.
Matthew: [00:15:52] That's crazy. Well, the guy that got fired as the associate your records, he was at your Rothschild days, or was that Rothschild?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:58] Yeah, the guy was a HBS grad and came in. I think it's tough for associate post-MBA associates who don't have banking experience before. They're like, Oh, yeah, I can handle the long hours when they get in and they realize, No, actually the MDs are living at the office and they're on calls till 2 or 3 in the morning. Like it's one thing to say you can do it because you want the paycheck, but it's another thing to actually live it and think, you know, after going to business school to where you're like living the life and like partying to like change back to banking lifestyle. Like, I can't it's so brutal.
Matthew: [00:16:28] It's fine. I'm just thinking about one thing I realized coming out of university into the workforce and it's not something that you could teach, but there is like it's just like, yeah, the workplace cadence that these social skills that aren't taught that maybe like you're referencing like a, an associate that's coming straight out of an MBA, um, you know, may not have those because even just like email skills, that's a real thing. Just knowing how to email people, right? Like you can't email like text. You can't just be like, Hey, what's up to a client? Or to a coworker or to a to a senior, Right? You can't like, you're just saying like, hey, like there's certain ways that you should be communicating via email. Um, and again.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:04] Not in the endurance that in the endurance you're just not used to having your plans blown up left and right, just constantly. So like you had like two years of like traveling vacation parties with friends and then like, suddenly you're like, No, you're locked in this office for like, 18 hours a day. Good luck. Yeah, like that transitions.
Matthew: [00:17:22] Yeah. I actually just funny enough, just because we're coming up on it. Yeah, about. Your plan's getting blown up. I had a buddy of mine. This happened to him last year. Valentine's Day coming up. Um, Dave got his, uh, his dinner plans blown up, and he. He was first year in banking. He wasn't used to it. His girlfriend was obviously understanding, but nonetheless, yeah, you got to get. Got to get used to that. Your plans could get blown up real quickly. So any bankers listening give your girlfriend a text or your boyfriend a text and let them know that you may have to cancel. There might be a small chance that's actually.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:53] That's a keeper. If the person's cool with getting Valentine's Day plans blown up and. Oh yeah, well.
Matthew: [00:17:57] Hey, it was that was just the first year it happened. I don't know if it happens every year on Valentine's Day, then we don't know what's going to go on there. But, um, I mean, fingers crossed. Fingers crossed for the guy. But anyways, yeah, just found this one interesting one. And I guess I would say if the person that wrote on the form, hopefully, you're listening because there was some good insight there from Pat and Nabil on how to handle this. But um, I think that will call it for this for this week guys. It was a great conversation these three topics and we'll look back to chat with everyone next Thursday.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:28] And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street, Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way, [email protected] and till next time.
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