Taking the plunge and applying for class of 2017 - How do I make myself shine?

@TheGrind Totally crushed that response. Couldn't be more right on.

Also, get over your HBS or GSB mindset. First of all, I'm not a finance expert, but it doesn;t sound like you work at the best of the best shops. Really good ones? Yes (maybe), but doesn't seem like you work at the elite places, which is fine, but a lot of the finance people competing for those spots will have those on their resume, so beware. Get over your distaste for Philly - it's actually a halfway decent city, and a really good place to go to school. You're not moving there forever.

I think it's cool to want to get out of the Midwest for a couple of years, but do you plan on going back there after? @CompBanker and others can verify, but I get the impression that Booth absolutely crushes Chicago placement, and I'm sure Kellogg does well, even in Buy Side. If that's where you want to be, it woulnd't be so bad to have your network there (and it's not like Booth or Kellogg are only regional placers). Would totally agree with TheGrind about adding Columbia - why wouldn't you?

I think, overall, you're in good shape, but hanging your hat on just H/S, without a shining resume, is a recipe for disaster.

KarateBoy,

Here is the problem I think you're going to encounter: Nothing on your profile makes you stand out. Your stats are good and you probably make a boatload of cash compared to your friends, but you're below average for your peer group. With no meaningful extracurriculars, all you have is your stats and work accomplishments. HBS and Stanford don't have a reason to take you. I personally don't even know if you'd get an interview. I'm not telling you to not apply, but just to keep your expectations in check.

So what can you do? First of all, you'll want to crush the GMAT. Crushing the GMAT is 750+. The average at your target schools is between 720-730. Schools are going to expect you to have a high GMAT due to your prior academic success and professional background. If you get below a 700, I wouldn't recommend applying to HBS/Stanford, and probably not Wharton/Booth either.

Second, TheGrind is right that the CFA helps, but you need to realize that this falls under the same category as professional accomplishment. As a professional designation, it contributes to the message that you're smart and accomplished. Unfortunately, you've already checked this box with your academic and professional success. So the credit you personally receive is minimal.

Third, you need extracurriculars. You just do. But as TheGrind says, it needs to be a passion. Do you know how many people in my class run marathons / ironmans / tough mudders? It's silly. These things don't qualify as differentiators anymore. Nor does international travel. Nor does speaking two languages. You need to do something that has an impact. Something that is tangible, measurable, and that you played a meaningful role in. I don't know what that opportunity will be for you, but it could easily be the difference between an acceptance and a rejection.

When application time comes, I suggest you go broad. Definitely add Columbia. I would drop Stanford. Here would be my recommendation:

Round 1: HBS Wharton Booth Columbia (Rolling Admissions)

Round 2: Kellogg Duke [Insert your next favorite here]

^ Yep. You're getting awesome advice. And you actually do have time between now and R1 to make a meaningful impact on something. The problem with your current extra curricular involvement is not that it's bad, but that it's common. It shows that you're a good dude, and I definitely talked about the impact I made helping undergrads from my college get into consulting. However, that was made a lot stronger by mentioning the "Consulting Day" that I helped start on campus and that I've presented at a few times. Everyone can give advice, but not everyone can take the initiative to start something, organize it, and follow through with it multiple times. Much more tangible.

That being said, I barely even talked about that. May have gotten a sentence mention in a couple of essays, and I probably discussed it in interviews at times, but no more than that. Your real ECs should make an impact on people that need it (e.g. not smart, upper-middle-class kids that want to be an investment banker). That's why I liked TheGrind's idea - it's a meaningful extension of what you currently do, and won't look like you just did it for the sake of doing it. this story actually makes sense:

"I was helping smart college kids get jobs at investment banks, which was meaningful and important to me, but wasn't making as big of an impact on the community as I wanted...I decided to leverage my knowledge and my passion for helping others by starting an innercity financial literacy organization that works with Chicago high school kids at...in the end, I formed a 501c3, raised $10k, and am currently completing my first season of financial literacy classes with 12 high school students at XXXX High School"

Do that, raise some money, have a tangible number of kids that attended the class, and you have a dynamite essay, good interview topic, and can talk about how you'd like to extend that in b-school (Non Profit Board Leadership Programs, Financial Literacy Clubs, etc.). Again, the key wil be to have a full on process that you can discuss, like difficulties working with a new non-profit's board should you form one, but then talk about your successes and how you were able to overcome the challenges and adapt.

Whatever you do, don't just do a couple of easy things just to check the box. So many people do that, and it's so obvious. I love seeing the people that organize alumni events from my undergrad, because literally year it changes to people 2-5 years out of college that I know are planning to apply to b-school.

The more critical responses you guys shared with me are awesome. Exactly what I needed to hear. I'll follow-up with some more details after work.

I'll just add that I'm fortunate enough that I don't need an MBA. The PMs at my shop like my work, so there's room for me to move-up towards a senior analyst role and eventually a PM without one. To boot, I've done a decent job growing my network and helping those people make money, so I hope this could open doors for me if I was ever looking for a change. The fortunate situation of not needing an MBA is why I'm choosing to be a "pickier" than my resume suggests I should be.

What I hope will set me apart are my recommendations. For Stanford, I believe I can get an alumnus + current CFO of a CA-based tech company to write me one. Meanwhile, For HBS, I think I can get an alumnus + current CEO of a financial company. How meaningful do you guys think that would be?

All in, I think that Stanford and Harvard would be great, since I think I'd enjoy the Bay area or Boston more than any other city, but I'm completely aware of the odds. I have a lot of respect for the value investor program at Columbia, but I'd feel like a little "second class" if I accepted general admission but didn't make it into VIP.

Maybe I should ask CompBanker out for coffee and here about his experience first hand. Everyone I've met loved their time there.

If you want to go to gsb or hbs, then submit an application there and dont let an anonymous person on the internet tell you otherwise. While I believe you should apply to 5 or more schools, don't leave your dream schools off the list. I got into h/s with an average gpa and below average GMAT coming from a non target. You never know what could happen.

I think the key to your success will be your story. A linear story that proves you have and will continue to follow your passions regardless of where the money is will go a long way in differentiating yourself from the herd.

This thread is gold.

Commenting to look at later.

No offense but claiming that harvard and stanford are your target schools for mba and not even mentioning community service accomplishments is sketchy...pretty sure that's one of the boxes you need to check off. You don't have to be a genius or rockstar to get into a school like wharton or columbia for example, I know a handful of people who go to those schools and they're not exceptional. Maybe focus more on them.

This thread is awesome. Hopefully KB doesn't mind me throwing my stats out for some insight from the group.

White Male Would be 27 at time of matriculation First generation college grad Top 100 LAC undergrad (Complete non-target for finance, but generally well regarded) 3.2 GPA Social Sciences major (have legitimate reason for low-ish GPA that makes for a good essay (has worked before)) Varsity Football player and captain Did mission trip to Africa about a year ago Started/Run non-profit (nothing mind blowing, but cause is near and dear to my heart) 2 years F100 Corporate Strategy -- Received a promotion after 1 year 1 year L/S Equity HF Analyst (~500MM AUM) -- Have been lucky enough to kind of slingshot up the food chain, although still junior analyst in title. Ran decent amount of money for a few small businesses / private investors from sophomore year of college until taking current job gmat practice tests have been in the 740 range (fairly even quant/verbal split) w/ a few more weeks of studying until I take the test.

Post MBA goal would be to land at a bigger/branded L/S Equity fund.

Targeting -- Columbia Real far reach -- H/S/W Others -- Darden, Haas, Ross

Do you all have any thoughts / criticism for me? I'm not really sold on an MBA and would really just like to lateral to a bigger shop directly. However, being from a non-target background and not being based in a traditional finance city I think it may be difficult. And I'm not going to be forced to leave my current shop as its not a program type position.

Thanks for any insight you all can give me.

Simple seems to have more interesting points to his profile , but both of your gmats will come into play . you have to remember that the application readers will have hundreds of white guys in finance and you have to have points to your profile that stand out and differentiate you otherwise it's just a war of numbers but the numbers will always lose out to interesting candidates

Simple as...has a competitive profile and seems to have put some thought into his target and safety school list. (how far down the top 100 is your LAC, anyway? Big diff between a Williams/Middlebury and a Savannah State) His only real knock is the GPA for his reach schools, assuming he can pull off the 740 on test day. As a general rule of thumb you can get by with one "minor" weakness applying to the top 5 if the adcom really likes your profile, everything else is very strong, or you make a great case for being well rounded. I'd say he's a "go" for Columbia if he shows them high interest, with W as a maybe. H&S might balk at the GPA but there's definitely plenty of stuff to work with here. Consider an admissions consultant for your reach apps- I'd recommend going on the Betsy Massar thread as she's given the most consistent advice I've seen on WSO and helped me out tremendously with my own process last year.

okay sorry for inappropriately hijacking the thread. but i do not deserve MS for that.

Alright, I re-read all the comments and here are my thoughts:

@"TheGrind" With regards to your question about me proving my leadership, asset management doesn't extend well to the role of managing other since most of the work is independent. I believe I show initiative/leadership by being capable of independently sourcing/researching ideas from scratch.

@"shorttheworld" I'm definitely a white guy, and that's no help here. But, I have no idea how much that's offset by being 1) immagrant, 2) first generation college student, 3) very blue collar background, and 4) being in equity research + asset management vs. the much more common route of banker -> PE

@"CompBanker" I'm definitely relying on the strength of my career progression and my story. I hope it proves to be as unique as I think I can make it sound. But, your comments helped me realize that my ECs are the weakest part of my resume. Thank you - I hope I figure something great out over the next 9-18 months. Let me know if you wanna grab coffee late Feb. Per my comments above about needing and MBA, I have no interest in going to Duke, despite how good it may be.

@"Flake" I only start thing if I plan on doing it right. No slouching on the GMAT for me. After 3-years of CFA, should feel like a relief!

@"TwoThrones" Cool. Let me know what you think.

@"Going Concern" I hear you and I readily admit that ECs are my weakest link. I didn't realize until this thread that they are THAT important. I'll work on it and make it much better.

@"Simple As..." No worries about hitching a hike on this thread.

To build on one of Simple As...'s comments, what do you guys think about the value of the MBA for someone in our positions? We are both lifers in this industry looking more senior roles with larger, more branded firms.

What do you guys think would be my odds of getting into the VIP at Columbia? Would my career trajectory be a more meaningful component there?

Honestly, if I were in your SPECIFIC position, I personally wouldn't pursue the MBA. You're already a proven asset. You have a CFA. You do something you love. You make a boatload of money. you have a network and superiors who want to invest in you. That doesn't mean that the MBA won't be useful in your case, just that if I were in your shoes I'd pass on it and would balk at the high opportunity cost. But there are plenty of folks with your profile who find the value in it and can justify going. I'm of the school of thought that if you're strongly considering it, better to do it than regret passing it up. This is especially true if you're not yet being weighed down by a family, kids, mortgages, etc.

The MBA at this level would even be considered for 3 reasons: 1) I need a 2 year break 2) I want a kick-a$$ network and an amazing experience with bright and interesting people 3)I want a brand stamp in case I move on to something else later. Seems as if #3 applies here for you. The true value of an MBA really is down the line, when you're looking to source business, gain new or different clients, switch industries/careers, establish or elevate your credibility when outside of your comfort zone, or move into top positions (it can be a differentiator or just a checked box). But it is by no means ESSENTIAL in your case-but that doesn't mean it won't be useful to you depending on your future plans.

I myself had all of the typical reasons for wanting an MBA- I hated my job, wanted a break, wanted a network, wanted to make up for a non-target undergrad, wanted to get to the C-Suite, etc...but my biggest reason-and I understand that this may come off extremely shallow- is that I really wanted to enjoy what was left of my 20s (short story: lost my parents as a teen so did military after high school at 17, then college+2 jobs, then 2 F50 financial analyst stints-all with no break in between- and now MBA). I got too hung up on a steady paycheck/safety net and rising salary and ended up staying too long in a very narrow role.

But you know what? Pursuing the MBA has still been worth it to me. I party hard w/ great people while learning a ton of interesting things I wasn't exposed to in my narrow role, and I just accepted an awesome (and lucrative) internship w/ a top company. More importantly, I get to finally escape NYC w/ the crazy cost of living and taxes. So even though my friends all thought I was crazy for giving up a "safe" job in a recession, it was one of my better decisions, so I hesitate to offer you advice to the contrary.

If you really want to be sure, talk to people who were previously in your situation or similar who left to attend HBS, Stanford, Wharton, Booth, and Columbia. Those are the only 5 I'd recommend given your situation. See how their careers have played out since-I suspect that most of them have not missed a beat and even fewer actually regret it.

KB,

Wanted to chime in here. We actually have similar backgrounds professionally (IB & HF), personally (immigrant, blue collar background), and academically. I also had little EC involvement post-undergrad.

I applied to a handful of schools, excluding H/S. I got into the usual suspects: W/Col/a couple of others. I did not apply to H/S was because I thought my stats were not good enough, and given my work hours + the effort required to actually prepare the applications, I concluded my time was better spent elsewhere.

In retrospect I regret not applying to at least H. I have a great (and logical) story and frankly speaking I have met a lot of H students/grads who do not seem to fit into the perceived "perfect" MBA student profile. I might have actually had a chance...now I'll never know.

What I am trying to tell you is: give it a shot! And obviously hedge your bets with a few other apps to W/Booth/wherever else you want to apply.

@Simple As... We have relatively similar profiles. Same GPA at a LAC, varsity athlete/captain, strong GMAT (assuming you get it), significant non-profit involvement, and decent work histroy (yours is probably better, although I am not a finance expert). Only major difference that I see here is my LAC was a top 10, but truthfully, I don't think they care that much. I honestly think GPA is GPA, since your GMAT will prove that you're smart enough as is.

I got dinged w/o interviews at H/W, and got in to Tuck, CBS, and Sloan, to give you an idea of what you might be in a position for. I'm relatively confident that my GPA and no-name current firm got me knocked off. You may be in better shape given some big names on your resume, although I'm not positive how HFs do at HBS. I think you'd have a good shot at Wharton, although I thought I did as well and didn't even get an interview.

One recommendation I have, and it goes in line with what I said to OP, is make sure you have one shining story for your non-profit experience. You may already have it (fund raising, success stories, whatever), but you want that go to story that you can refer to in every group of essays and in interviews.

I would also be picky with your target schools. You don't need it - pick the four or five that are really good for you, and go with them. Maybe, HBS, Wharton, CBS, Booth, and Stanford if you're feeling it. If you don't need to go, I don't think I'd settle for Darden or Ross, even though they are great schools. That just depends on your real appetite for going to school. If you execute decently and apply early enough (not necessarily ED, just early in the cycle), I can't see you missing on Columbia.

@The Grind Well done and well reasoned. There are so many different reasons to go to school, and none of them are necessarily more "right" than the other. I was a pretty classic case, and probably the easiest reason to decide to go back to school - the need to rebrand and re-enter the recruiting world. I networked hard with MBB people and all of them told me my only way in was b-school. That sort of made my decision easy.

As I've gotten deep into the process though, and also had to decide between schools, I've realized that the decision and the reasons for going are beyond just a new job (still the pimary reason for me). The network, the unique growth opportunities and access, and the chance to go to school when you actually care about class are all things that I'm incredibly excited about, and don't think I could get from most other opportunities. Even if I wanted to stay in the same industry, I think I would still want to go, despite not thinking that when I first started to apply.

In the end, everyone's situation is unique, even if you have a similar work experience and goals. An analysis like The Grind's is important for everyone before applying/matriculating.

OP, I just read your initial post and did not read all the responses so my apologies if I write stuff that's already been discussed.

Overall you have a strong finance profile. You went to a big 10 undergrad, first generation college, good gpa, and worked in solid gigs. However, based on what you wrote I don't really see HBS or Stanford here. The white/asian males who end up at those schools from finance usually worked at some combination of a top BB, megafund or solid MM PE, hedge fund, and/or very large asset management firms (i.e., fidelity, wellington, t rowe price, dodge and cox, capital group, etc.). Moreover, I don't see any interesting extracurricular or non-work related accomplishments and experiences. The CFA is fine, but it doesn't matter too much for MBA admissions; it does demonstrate work ethic and quantitative skills, but unless you're on the real margins it's not a driving factor.

If you score 730+ on the GMAT, and your recs, essays, and interviews are all in line, you should be able to get Columbia and Booth. Wharton is 50/50; they like high gpa and GMAT but are also name whores when it comes to school and company. HBS will be more in the 20-25% range with Stanford around 10-15%. Once you have your gmat score you should talk to Sandy "HBSGuru" Kreisberg for his analysis of your chances. My guess is his numbers will be similar to mine, and the guy is scary good at predicting your chances.

Anyways, best of luck. I'm pretty sure I know where you currently work at based on your description. It's a good firm, just not well known to admissions officers at HBS/Stanford and not a typical "feeder." But hey, it never hurts to try your best. If you really do have a chip on your shoulder for not having a prestigious pedigree on your resume, an MBA is your last chance and you might as well go all out. Also, it really is an amazing experience in every sense of the word: professionally, socially, and academically.

Bump

There might be a risk to using the CEOs / CFOs that you're thinking of asking for recc's (unless they're just extra supplemental ones)...at the end of the day, these guys didn't supervise you, you own stakes in their firm, and realistically it's just not going to be a really credible recommendation. I think you'd probably be better off sticking to guys who actually worked with you very in depth and can vouch for you.

Somebody, not sure if it was the OP, was asking whether the MBA degree has value in the HF industry. My opinion (and to be fair, I'm still pretty junior / have only been around for a few years, but am at a megafund so I talk with a lot of the folks at other megafunds) -- it definitely has value, especially if it's from Harvard or Stanford. Which isn't to say it's necessary; it's not. But I definitely see a lot of senior folks with MBAs, especially from those schools, as well as several with no MBAs. In general I don't think an MBA is a bad way to go unless the firm you're at is going to rocket your career upwards...