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7/3/12

Why the **** people tip is beyond my comprehension.

If you're at a restaurant/eating out and someone brings you your food and at the end of the meal you owe them $30, then why would you tip them $10 just for carrying a plate of food back and forth. At the end of the meal it makes no difference whatsoever if you give them that extra money.

A waiter will get at least minimum wage no matter what because even if their base rate is below minimum wage their employer has to by law make up the money. They do not deserve some stupidly high pay for their menial work. I do not have some high paying job, i am in full time education, if I am lucky enough to be able to eat out or order a takeaway then i most likely can not afford to give extra money away, what a stupid ****ing thing to do.

And why do idiot waiters expect 15-20% tip no matter how large the bill is? If I order food that costs $1000, why should a waiter expect $200 for the same amount of work as if I had ordered a $5 sandwich? It's carrying a plate of food ten feet to a table, a monkey can be trained to do it, and they do not deserve wages higher than people who were smart enough to graduate high school and not do some dumbass work.

Waiters are slaves. You make a living waiting on other people bringing them food and drink. Its been around for thousands of years except back then you were rewarded with your life and punished with lashes or death. Waiters are modern day servants.

Comments (295)

7/3/12

You're an idiot

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7/3/12

Finally someone who understands.

Waiters are PAID to serve. If they want a bonus, let them ask their boss who is probably driving a ferrari.

  • Anonymous Monkey
  •  11/7/15

I never tip. Only foolish stupid people waste their money tipping.

7/3/12

You know what the worst about tipping is? When people at fast food restaurants EXPECT a tip. At my food court there are a few places where the person literally picks up a pre-cooked sandwich, puts it in a grill, and hands it to me when its done. And when you go to pay theres an option to tip. I always hit $0 because what the fuck did the guy actually do, and they always give me cold stares as if they are entitled to 20% because of their 20 seconds of work.

7/3/12

You pay for the service you get, just like in any other industry. If everyone stopped tipping the owners would have to pay for the difference, which would raise the prices of the food. So since people are going to pay for it anyways, you two are just being freeloaders and cheap.

7/3/12

UFO will come in soon crying about how horrible non-tipping people are.

7/9/12
Abdel:

UFO will come in soon crying about how horrible non-tipping people are.

My 2nd message, on page 1.

Tooked some time but it happened.

Abdel wins, yet again.

7/9/12
Abdel:
Abdel:

UFO will come in soon crying about how horrible non-tipping people are.

My 2nd message, on page 1.

Tooked some time but it happened.

Abdel wins, yet again.

See you at the conference.

PS, get a life.

Get busy living

7/9/12
UFOinsider:
Abdel:
Abdel:

UFO will come in soon crying about how horrible non-tipping people are.

My 2nd message, on page 1.

Tooked some time but it happened.

Abdel wins, yet again.

See you at the conference.

PS, get a life.

Well, this is new. After the insults and everything else, now I get threats.

7/9/12
Abdel:

threats

You said that, not me

Get busy living

7/9/12
UFOinsider:
Abdel:

threats

You said that, not me

Bottom line is:

Abdel: Came in with arguments

The rest: Lacked arguments, so they used insults and threats to compensate.

Ciao Bella.

7/9/12
Abdel:
UFOinsider:
Abdel:

threats

You said that, not me

Bottom line is:

Abdel: Came in with arguments

The rest: Lacked arguments, so they used insults and threats to compensate.

Ciao Bella.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tip_(gratuity)

Get busy living

7/15/12
Abdel:
UFOinsider:
Abdel:
Abdel:

UFO will come in soon crying about how horrible non-tipping people are.

My 2nd message, on page 1.

Tooked some time but it happened.

Abdel wins, yet again.

See you at the conference.

PS, get a life.

Well, this is new. After the insults and everything else, now I get threats.

I hope you're there.

7/3/12
fitnessmodel:

Why the **** people tip is beyond my comprehension.

If you're at a restaurant/eating out and someone brings you your food and at the end of the meal you owe them $30, then why would you tip them $10 just for carrying a plate of food back and forth. At the end of the meal it makes no difference whatsoever if you give them that extra money. [Apparently it does or you wouldn't be making this thread]

A waiter will get at least minimum wage no matter what because even if their base rate is below minimum wage their employer has to by law make up the money. [That sounds like a dream come true dealing with assholes all day, I'd rather do far easier jobs for minimum wage] They do not deserve some stupidly high pay for their menial work [If you are broke then I highly doubt you are going to be paying "stupidly high amounts in tips"]. I do not have some high paying job, i am in full time education, if I am lucky enough to be able to eat out or order a takeaway then i most likely can not afford to give extra money away, what a stupid ****ing thing to do. [It is also customary, and yeah, while the employer might be responsible for making up the 'minimum wage' that is hardly enticing]

And why do idiot waiters expect 15-20% tip no matter how large the bill is? If I order food that costs $1000, why should a waiter expect $200 for the same amount of work as if I had ordered a $5 sandwich [Yeah probably, but I imagine the service would represent the price of the restaurant you are eating at]? It's carrying a plate of food ten feet to a table [I am guessing you have never been a waiter (me neither)], a monkey can be trained to do it, and they do not deserve wages higher than people who were smart enough to graduate high school and not do some dumbass work. [I would be willing to bet that most waiters graduated High school]

Waiters are slaves.[I didn't think that slaves got paid] You make a living waiting on other people bringing them food and drink. Its been around for thousands of years except back then you were rewarded with your life and punished with lashes or death. Waiters are modern day servants [That is a dumb fucking comparison, that is like saying anyone that works in the service industry is a servant (which makes more sense actually than your contradictory "slave" comment].

I understand being broke, but before I go out to eat I take into account that on top of the menu price, I will have to pay tax and tip.

Best Response
7/3/12

First of all: "fitnessmodel" = douchiest tag ever.

Secondly: don't you have some lame blog you can post tripe like this on?

Finally, to address the "substance" of your post: not tipping at the end of the meal makes you what economists would call a freerider. The waiter probably gets paid something like $2.50/hour (not minimum wage as you claim) and his whole pay structure is based on the assumption that people will tip around 15%. So he or she is waiting on you (taking your order, bringing your food or drinks, making sure your experience is going well) based on the assumption that you will compensate him at the end of the meal. If a customer like you takes advantage of this assumption and fails to tip then you are being a freerider and getting a benefit without paying anything for it, because the price of the waiter is not built into the price of the food.

You are like the guy who drives on the shoulder to get around a traffic jam thinking you are so smart and then expects people to let you in near the bottleneck. Yeah, everyone thought of doing that same thing but no one else did it because they aren't assholes.

"Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst. Capitalize on what comes."

7/7/12
TEX:

First of all: "fitnessmodel" = douchiest tag ever.

Secondly: don't you have some lame blog you can post tripe like this on?

Finally, to address the "substance" of your post: not tipping at the end of the meal makes you what economists would call a freerider. The waiter probably gets paid something like $2.50/hour (not minimum wage as you claim) and his whole pay structure is based on the assumption that people will tip around 15%. So he or she is waiting on you (taking your order, bringing your food or drinks, making sure your experience is going well) based on the assumption that you will compensate him at the end of the meal. If a customer like you takes advantage of this assumption and fails to tip then you are being a freerider and getting a benefit without paying anything for it, because the price of the waiter is not built into the price of the food.

You are like the guy who drives on the shoulder to get around a traffic jam thinking you are so smart and then expects people to let you in near the bottleneck. Yeah, everyone thought of doing that same thing but no one else did it because they aren't assholes.

Damn.

7/16/12
TEX:

You are like the guy who drives on the shoulder to get around a traffic jam thinking you are so smart and then expects people to let you in near the bottleneck. Yeah, everyone thought of doing that same thing but no one else did it because they aren't assholes.

What about people that tip and drive in the shoulder? I don't EXPECT to be let in at the bottleneck, but I find the weak link (aka Slowest Common Denominator) and fit myself in.

My name is Nicky, but you can call me Dre.

7/16/12
aempirei:
TEX:

You are like the guy who drives on the shoulder to get around a traffic jam thinking you are so smart and then expects people to let you in near the bottleneck. Yeah, everyone thought of doing that same thing but no one else did it because they aren't assholes.

What about people that tip and drive in the shoulder? I don't EXPECT to be let in at the bottleneck, but I find the weak link (aka Slowest Common Denominator) and fit myself in.

It doesn't make you smart--anyone else could have done this, too. The rest of us just have common decency.

7/16/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:
aempirei:
TEX:

You are like the guy who drives on the shoulder to get around a traffic jam thinking you are so smart and then expects people to let you in near the bottleneck. Yeah, everyone thought of doing that same thing but no one else did it because they aren't assholes.

What about people that tip and drive in the shoulder? I don't EXPECT to be let in at the bottleneck, but I find the weak link (aka Slowest Common Denominator) and fit myself in.

It doesn't make you smart--anyone else could have done this, too. The rest of us just have common decency.

I didn't say it made me smart, but if a car is driving slower than the snail's pace traffic, it isn't really hurting anyone when I place myself in front of them since the space has been there for a quarter mile anyway.

If anyone has driven on I-76 during rush hour in Philly, you would probably be more understanding to shoulder-driving. If someone manages to do it to me, I usually tip my cap to them for getting in front of me. If you get caught by a cop, it's your own fault. If you don't get caught, good for you.

My name is Nicky, but you can call me Dre.

7/3/12

6/10. Not a bad effort, but I've seen better

GBS

7/3/12

service IS better in countries / cultures where tipping is expected.

An example - the other day at brunch the waiter came by 5times and refilled our water glasses and coffee without ever being asked.

I haven't been to Australia where there is no tipping but their base wage is at least $20/hr (and drinks are more expensive)

Tip 15% for average service, 20% for great service, and less than 15% if it was really shitty, that's just how it is in our culture and i dont see things changing anytime soon

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PM me if you're traveling to Buenos Aires in 2016 (I live here) :-)

7/3/12

AndyLouis:

service IS better in countries / cultures where tipping is expected.

Cain't wait 'till they replace them all with robots and monkeys.

7/3/12
AndyLouis:

service IS better in countries / cultures where tipping is expected.

Go to Japan

1/5/16
JDawg:

<

blockquote class="quote-msg quote-nest-1 odd">

Go to Japan

^

7/3/12
fitnessmodel:

And why do idiot waiters expect 15-20% tip no matter how large the bill is? If I order food that costs $1000, why should a waiter expect $200 for the same amount of work as if I had ordered a $5 sandwich?

Because it's not the same amount of work? Unless you order a $1000 sandwich, a bill that comes out to $1000 probably had proportionally more work to do; a $1000 bill could conceivably come from a party of 10-20, whereas a cheaper bill (say, $100) probably had fewer people, and thus less work for the waiter.

7/3/12
CHItizen:
fitnessmodel:

And why do idiot waiters expect 15-20% tip no matter how large the bill is? If I order food that costs $1000, why should a waiter expect $200 for the same amount of work as if I had ordered a $5 sandwich?

Because it's not the same amount of work? Unless you order a $1000 sandwich, a bill that comes out to $1000 probably had proportionally more work to do; a $1000 bill could conceivably come from a party of 10-20, whereas a cheaper bill (say, $100) probably had fewer people, and thus less work for the waiter.

Unless you ordered a $700 bottle of wine..........but, then you can afford to pay a $200 tip

"One should recognize reality even when one doesn't like it, indeed, especially when one doesn't like it." - Charlie Munger

7/3/12

Go out to dinner in South Beach where most places automatically charge gratuity to the bill and you will understand why it is better to have a server working for gratuity.

Also, servers are paid around $2-3hr and restaurant profit margins are still terrible and have an extremely high failure rate. Basically, most restaurants can't afford to pay servers minimum wage and if a gratuity is factored into the bill your service will suck.

"One should recognize reality even when one doesn't like it, indeed, especially when one doesn't like it." - Charlie Munger

7/3/12

On your W-2, 8% of your food sales are included as a tip is assumed.

7/3/12

Just be nice and give something to show your appreciation. They don't make enough in the first place. Not everyone can be a banker and ball hard yo, brah.

7/3/12

I share the same frustration as OP. First, I've worked at 5 restaurants throughout high-school and university, so I understand what tipping means to waiters. However, the whole system of tipping is awkward. If I don't like the service, I don't even want to pay even a cent in tips. I don't even like it when someone gives me exceptional service because I don't like to be obligated in paying more tips than I need to. I just want my food! Don't get me wrong, I do tip but I go out less because of the added cost. But the struggle and confusion between customers and waiters is hurting the restaurant business. Restaurants should just eliminate tipping and jack up the cost for customers. If customers are going to pay anyways, then get rid of tipping system and remove the conflict. If waiters gives bad services, then just don't go to that restaurant and let the manager deal with the waiter's attitude.

7/3/12

Look, you're obviously one of those douchebags that likes to have a contrarian point of view about everything, and your friends probably think it makes you unique and interesting. The rest of us, adults who actually work for a living, know that you're full of shit and you're just cheap. The upside is that people like you don't make it anywhere near the offices that we work in because you are convinced that these opinions are acceptable to spew during an interview or lunch, and nobody else sees it as unique or interesting. They see it for what it is- a kid who is too immature or cheap to understand how the world really works, despite their own personal beliefs.

You may want to rethink your position on tipping service industry workers, as you will more than likely spend the majority of your life being one of them.

7/3/12
Rupert Pupkin:

Look, you're obviously one of those douchebags that likes to have a contrarian point of view about everything, and your friends probably think it makes you unique and interesting. The rest of us, adults who actually work for a living, know that you're full of shit and you're just cheap. The upside is that people like you don't make it anywhere near the offices that we work in because you are convinced that these opinions are acceptable to spew during an interview or lunch, and nobody else sees it as unique or interesting. They see it for what it is- a kid who is too immature or cheap to understand how the world really works, despite their own personal beliefs.

You may want to rethink your position on tipping service industry workers, as you will more than likely spend the majority of your life being one of them.

yo dawg you need to tip this guy cause u just got served

7/3/12
Rupert Pupkin:

Look, you're obviously one of those douchebags that likes to have a contrarian point of view about everything, and your friends probably think it makes you unique and interesting. The rest of us, adults who actually work for a living, know that you're full of shit and you're just cheap. The upside is that people like you don't make it anywhere near the offices that we work in because you are convinced that these opinions are acceptable to spew during an interview or lunch, and nobody else sees it as unique or interesting. They see it for what it is- a kid who is too immature or cheap to understand how the world really works, despite their own personal beliefs.

You may want to rethink your position on tipping service industry workers, as you will more than likely spend the majority of your life being one of them.

This was mean and stupid.

7/7/12
Rupert Pupkin:

Look, you're obviously one of those douchebags that likes to have a contrarian point of view about everything, and your friends probably think it makes you unique and interesting. The rest of us, adults who actually work for a living, know that you're full of shit and you're just cheap. The upside is that people like you don't make it anywhere near the offices that we work in because you are convinced that these opinions are acceptable to spew during an interview or lunch, and nobody else sees it as unique or interesting. They see it for what it is- a kid who is too immature or cheap to understand how the world really works, despite their own personal beliefs.

You may want to rethink your position on tipping service industry workers, as you will more than likely spend the majority of your life being one of them.

True I know some other people like that.

Think there names are

Sorros
Ray Dalio
Icahn
Simons

But, yea man go with the heard, do what ever your financial advisor says every one is doing.

7/7/12
Rupert Pupkin:

Look, you're obviously one of those douchebags that likes to have a contrarian point of view about everything, and your friends probably think it makes you unique and interesting. The rest of us, adults who actually work for a living, know that you're full of shit and you're just cheap. The upside is that people like you don't make it anywhere near the offices that we work in because you are convinced that these opinions are acceptable to spew during an interview or lunch, and nobody else sees it as unique or interesting. They see it for what it is- a kid who is too immature or cheap to understand how the world really works, despite their own personal beliefs.

You may want to rethink your position on tipping service industry workers, as you will more than likely spend the majority of your life being one of them.

True I know some other people like that.

Think there names are

Sorros
Ray Dalio
Icahn
Simons

But, yea man go with the heard, do what ever your financial advisory says every one is doing.

7/8/12
blastoise:
Rupert Pupkin:

Look, you're obviously one of those douchebags that likes to have a contrarian point of view about everything, and your friends probably think it makes you unique and interesting. The rest of us, adults who actually work for a living, know that you're full of shit and you're just cheap. The upside is that people like you don't make it anywhere near the offices that we work in because you are convinced that these opinions are acceptable to spew during an interview or lunch, and nobody else sees it as unique or interesting. They see it for what it is- a kid who is too immature or cheap to understand how the world really works, despite their own personal beliefs.

You may want to rethink your position on tipping service industry workers, as you will more than likely spend the majority of your life being one of them.

True I know some other people like that.

Think there names are

Sorros
Ray Dalio
Icahn
Simons

But, yea man go with the heard, do what ever your financial advisory says every one is doing.

You make some very good points blastoise. Thanks for sharing your extremely valuable insight and your time for putting this up. I look forward to seeing more of your, as always, high quality posts. You sure have lived up to everything I personally have come to expect of you here in this post. Keep up the good work champ.

"...all truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

  • Schopenhauer
7/3/12

''The rest of us, adults who actually work for a living'' - Talking like he's carrying the world on his shoulders.

Dude, you got suckered into paying hefty tuitions only to be able to look at excel spreadsheets 14 hours a day. You need to calm down and accept that not everyone has the same opinion as you when it comes to tipping.

As far as I'm concern, teachnically, OP is correct. The person is getting PAID to serve people. Now if you think that the economic value of that action is not enough rewarded, then that's your problem.

7/4/12
Abdel:

As far as I'm concern, teachnically, OP is correct. The person is getting PAID to serve people. Now if you think that the economic value of that action is not enough rewarded, then that's your problem.

Technically you and OP are both wrong. In this country, getting paid means the minimum wage (at least). Servers get paid below minimum wage, and therefore rely on you to fill the gap between what they are given by their employer and what they should actually be getting for providing their service (which for all the work they do should not be minimum wage anyways). You don't have a problem paying full price to buy clothes at a store, where the sales associates get payed on commissions and a wage, but you are still paying for their service. In this case you just pay a higher price for the clothes and the company pays the employees wage, but you are still paying them indirectly you just may not think about it because it's such a common place, but rest assured the cost is factored in there. But now because the middle man is being taken out (employer) and it lies on you to pay for a service you get and people call it a "tip" you suddenly have a problem with it. Stop being so cynical and do your part for society, people who work deserve to get paid accordingly. It's people with your logic who do all for themselves and then drive this country into the ground because they don't think things through.

7/6/12
Abdel:

''The rest of us, adults who actually work for a living'' - Talking like he's carrying the world on his shoulders.

Dude, you got suckered into paying hefty tuitions only to be able to look at excel spreadsheets 14 hours a day. You need to calm down and accept that not everyone has the same opinion as you when it comes to tipping.

As far as I'm concern, teachnically, OP is correct. The person is getting PAID to serve people. Now if you think that the economic value of that action is not enough rewarded, then that's your problem.

The VA paid my tuition in full, so I didn't get suckered into anything. Also, the premise that tipping is an opinion is ridiculous. Severs are paid a ridiculously small hourly wage of around $2-3 and rely on tips for any actual income. If you refuse to tip everywhere you go, you'll probably end up being at one of those places again and have some dude spitting in your shit. I don't think it makes sense to save $10 and risk having some pissed off underpaid 20 year old fucking with your food.

7/6/12
Rupert Pupkin:

Also, the premise that tipping is an opinion is ridiculous. Severs are paid a ridiculously small hourly wage of around $2-3 and rely on tips for any actual income. If you refuse to tip everywhere you go, you'll probably end up being at one of those places again and have some dude spitting in your shit. I don't think it makes sense to save $10 and risk having some pissed off underpaid 20 year old fucking with your food.

In sum, there is a tipping mafia that will break my leg if I don't tip? Seems like you're only argument for tipping is the fear that the server will do something to your food.

If he spits in your food = lawsuit on the restaurent = he gets fired and you win $.

Also, as ridiculous as his salary might be, it reflects the economic value of the service he is providing. If it hurts you, take your own money and pay him a good salary.

7/7/12
Abdel:
Rupert Pupkin:

Also, the premise that tipping is an opinion is ridiculous. Severs are paid a ridiculously small hourly wage of around $2-3 and rely on tips for any actual income. If you refuse to tip everywhere you go, you'll probably end up being at one of those places again and have some dude spitting in your shit. I don't think it makes sense to save $10 and risk having some pissed off underpaid 20 year old fucking with your food.

In sum, there is a tipping mafia that will break my leg if I don't tip? Seems like you're only argument for tipping is the fear that the server will do something to your food.

If he spits in your food = lawsuit on the restaurent = he gets fired and you win $.

With all due respect, that's a fucking stupid comment Abdel. You would never be able to tell if the cook deposited his spit in your sandwich or his piss in your apple juice.

That said, I agree with your general premisse Abdel.

I also find it rather hilarious that the people here the among the most ideological free market capitalists around - and yet they want the "free riders" to start tipping. These are the people that so staunchly defend the right of the free market in determining bonuses and executive pay, but want the bottom end of the market to be regulated or regulated by "social pressure".

Surely free riders are just taking advantage of an inefficiency, and deserve to be rewarded for that?

7/7/12
Abdel:

In sum, there is a tipping mafia that will break my leg if I don't tip? Seems like you're only argument for tipping is the fear that the server will do something to your food.

If he spits in your food = lawsuit on the restaurent = he gets fired and you win $.

Also, as ridiculous as his salary might be, it reflects the economic value of the service he is providing. If it hurts you, take your own money and pay him a good salary.

You have to realize you sound like an idiot, right? Go work on your Econ 1301 homework.

7/7/12
Rupert Pupkin:

You have to realize you sound like an idiot, right? Go work on your Econ 1301 homework.

Well, it appears that I won the debate.

I got at you with arguments and you're only come back was to insult me since you lack any valid counter-argument.

Please, do not quote me again.

7/7/12
Abdel:
Rupert Pupkin:

You have to realize you sound like an idiot, right? Go work on your Econ 1301 homework.

Well, it appears that I won the debate.

I got at you with arguments and you're only come back was to insult me since you lack any valid counter-argument.

Please, do not quote me again.

Ya, if you want to consider this a win go ahead. Sometimes you have to realize you're arguing with someone who lacks the intelligence to understand why they're wrong, and at that point it's not really worth the effort anymore. You've made it pretty clear that you think it's worth risking some kid spitting in your food to save a little money, so I have to assume that theory applies to you.

7/7/12
Rupert Pupkin:
Abdel:
Rupert Pupkin:

You have to realize you sound like an idiot, right? Go work on your Econ 1301 homework.

Well, it appears that I won the debate.

I got at you with arguments and you're only come back was to insult me since you lack any valid counter-argument.

Please, do not quote me again.

Ya, if you want to consider this a win go ahead. Sometimes you have to realize you're arguing with someone who lacks the intelligence to understand why they're wrong, and at that point it's not really worth the effort anymore. You've made it pretty clear that you think it's worth risking some kid spitting in your food to save a little money, so I have to assume that theory applies to you.

Once again, you get at me with insults instead of valid arguments.

Again, please do not quote me anymore.

7/3/12

He was talking about the OP, and let me assure you he is a douchbag

7/3/12

Did you just watch the reservoir dogs lol?

7/3/12
7/3/12

I'll just say this. If you make it a habit of not tipping, I wouldn't go back to the same place too many times lol.

7/3/12
TNA:

I'll just say this. If you make it a habit of not tipping, I wouldn't go back to the same place too many times lol.

uh uh lol

7/3/12

mike jones tippin u should be 2

7/3/12

.

7/3/12

I think what the op is forgetting is that in the US, the price of the food/drink doesn't include tip, but in other countries where tipping isnt required, the same food/drink is grossed up for an implied tip to make up for the difference. We can switch to a no-tipping paradigm, but expect to pay 15-20% more.

7/3/12
AlphaGeneration:

I think what the op is forgetting is that in the US, the price of the food/drink doesn't include tip, but in other countries where tipping isnt required, the same food/drink is grossed up for an implied tip to make up for the difference. We can switch to a no-tipping paradigm, but expect to pay 15-20% more.

So let me get this straight. With all the inflation that Ben ''Spaceship'' Bernanke is creating and all the taxes and regulations voted by these same employees that makes employment more costly (which make my food more expansive), on top of all of that, I have to pay another 20%?

Are you f*cking insane?

7/4/12
Abdel:
AlphaGeneration:

I think what the op is forgetting is that in the US, the price of the food/drink doesn't include tip, but in other countries where tipping isnt required, the same food/drink is grossed up for an implied tip to make up for the difference. We can switch to a no-tipping paradigm, but expect to pay 15-20% more.

So let me get this straight. With all the inflation that Ben ''Spaceship'' Bernanke is creating and all the taxes and regulations voted by these same employees that makes employment more costly (which make my food more expansive), on top of all of that, I have to pay another 20%?

Are you f*cking insane?

You're right, restaurant owners will happily take that hit to their bottom line when they have to pay employees a higher salary

7/3/12

Just think of it like this, if no one tipped, severely under qualified people would take these jobs and people worth more than minimum wage would look for work elsewhere. So you would then end up with shit service everywhere you went, and putting your order in at Ruth Chris to the illegal immigrant Pablo. Now do you really want that? Probably not. Stop being a cheap freeloader.

7/4/12
historiclegend:

Just think of it like this, if no one tipped, severely under qualified people would take these jobs and people worth more than minimum wage would look for work elsewhere. So you would then end up with shit service everywhere you went, and putting your order in at Ruth Chris to the illegal immigrant Pablo. Now do you really want that? Probably not. Stop being a cheap freeloader.

First of all muchacho, if the service had to become super shitty, guess what would happen? FREE MARKET SOLUTION = robots or whatever. As far as I'm concern, I can go pick up the food and beer myself.

Secondo my gringo, how am I a freeloader when I'm PAYING?

Thirdo, go back to mexico

7/4/12
Abdel:
historiclegend:

Just think of it like this, if no one tipped, severely under qualified people would take these jobs and people worth more than minimum wage would look for work elsewhere. So you would then end up with shit service everywhere you went, and putting your order in at Ruth Chris to the illegal immigrant Pablo. Now do you really want that? Probably not. Stop being a cheap freeloader.

First of all muchacho, if the service had to become super shitty, guess what would happen? FREE MARKET SOLUTION = robots or whatever. As far as I'm concern, I can go pick up the food and beer myself.

Secondo my gringo, how am I a freeloader when I'm PAYING?

Thirdo, go back to mexico

Primero: Good luck getting a girl to go out with you by telling her "hey I am going to take you to this really nice restaurant, but uhh I'm kind of a cheap skate so you need to go and serve on yourself, if you get thirsty, or want to eat, or your order is messed up, or if the table is dirty, or anything you may need, your going to need to do it yourself, and/or work with the chef or manager to get it done, instead of sitting down with me and talking and relaxing so I can feed you some stupid line about how pretty your eyes are so I can get in your pants (or try to any ways)."

Segundo: You are paying for the food, by not tipping you are not paying for the service. Therefore you are freeloading off of everyone else who IS paying for the service that you seem to think is only worth $2.50 (but yet I am sure you think YOU are worthy of a amazing bonus at whatever dead end job you are currently employed in.

Tercero: You only make fun of yourself, and add to your f*cking ignorance because you don't know how to spell anything in Spanish, and by calling him a "Gringo" you are in fact acknowledging that he is not of Spanish descent, and so by telling him to go back to Mexico is completely counter intuitive.

Cuarto: Just stop what you are doing, and slap yourself for being so ignorant.

7/4/12
dest149:

Primero: Good luck getting a girl to go out with you by telling her "hey I am going to take you to this really nice restaurant, but uhh I'm kind of a cheap skate so you need to go and serve on yourself, if you get thirsty, or want to eat, or your order is messed up, or if the table is dirty, or anything you may need, your going to need to do it yourself, and/or work with the chef or manager to get it done, instead of sitting down with me and talking and relaxing so I can feed you some stupid line about how pretty your eyes are so I can get in your pants (or try to any ways)."

What? Aren't men and women equal? Why do I need to pay for her?

o and ''good'' come back to my ''free market solution'' point. haha

dest149:

Segundo: You are paying for the food, by not tipping you are not paying for the service. Therefore you are freeloading off of everyone else who IS paying for the service that you seem to think is only worth $2.50 (but yet I am sure you think YOU are worthy of a amazing bonus at whatever dead end job you are currently employed in.

The price of the food that I'm paying for includes a: portion of the cost of the food + portion of the cost of the employee's salary.

dest149:

Tercero: You only make fun of yourself, and add to your f*cking ignorance because you don't know how to spell anything in Spanish, and by calling him a "Gringo" you are in fact acknowledging that he is not of Spanish descent, and so by telling him to go back to Mexico is completely counter intuitive.

So, I'm ignorant because I don't speak that lame spanish?

This was one of the lamest comeback on WSO history.

7/4/12
  1. You pay for the girls because you're a gentleman, and if you don't you're a loser.
  2. Back to my previous post. At $8.00/hour you're not going to get decent service.
  3. You're a dipshit because you try to use a language that you don't know.
7/4/12
historiclegend:

1. You pay for the girls because you're a gentleman, and if you don't you're a loser.

  1. Back to my previous post. At $8.00/hour you're not going to get decent service.
  2. You're a dipshit because you try to use a language that you don't know.

1- We're not in the 1930's anymore. Today, females have economic powers equal to those of men.

2- If the service is not decent = he'll go bankrupt or he'll replace them with robots or let customers go get their orders themselves.

3- Don't be impolite. You're mother raised you better than this.

7/4/12
Abdel:
historiclegend:

1. You pay for the girls because you're a gentleman, and if you don't you're a loser.

  1. Back to my previous post. At $8.00/hour you're not going to get decent service.
  2. You're a dipshit because you try to use a language that you don't know.

1- We're not in the 1930's anymore. Today, females have economic power equal to men.

2- If the service is not decent = he'll go bankrupt or he'll replace them with robots or let customers go get their orders themselves.

3- Don't be impolite. You're mother raised you better than this.

If you think you can score a 10/10 by not paying for them then you have got to be the man. And if you can, I will acknowledge your greatness. But if not, you should hold your standards a little higher, and not go after the trolls that are willing to accept this new gender equality.

You don't understand basic economics. If the jobs don't pay well enough they will move on to other jobs. Which will mean shit service for you. I have no clue where you are getting the idea of robots from, but we are very far from that, and it would be cheaper to pay people anyhow.

Actually she didn't. And calling you a dipshit would hardly be impolite compared to the real world, so grow up. You were the one making racist claims without even knowing my background. Wouldn't that constitute as more impolite than calling someone a dipshit? I think so.

7/4/12
historiclegend:

If you think you can score a 10/10 by not paying for them then you have got to be the man. And if you can, I will acknowledge your greatness. But if not, you should hold your standards a little higher, and not go after the trolls that are willing to accept this new gender equality.

Actually, by letting the female pay for her part, you show that you respect her as your equal. THAT is how a men should handel himself. Now if you think females are only a cum dump and are inferior, then pay for their stuff.

historiclegend:

You don't understand basic economics. If the jobs don't pay well enough they will move on to other jobs. Which will mean shit service for you. I have no clue where you are getting the idea of robots from, but we are very far from that, and it would be cheaper to pay people anyhow.

Well, I actually do. A job salary reflects its economic value. Walking 5 feet to deposit a beer on a table is hardly worth $2/h. And it doesn't have to be robots. My point is, the market will come up with something. As it ALWAYS did.

historiclegend:

Actually she didn't. And calling you a dipshit would hardly be impolite compared to the real world, so grow up. You were the one making racist claims without even knowing my background. Wouldn't that constitute as more impolite than calling someone a dipshit? I think so.

How am I racist? I'm probably the most pro-black, pro-mexican folk on WSO.

7/4/12
Abdel:
historiclegend:

If you think you can score a 10/10 by not paying for them then you have got to be the man. And if you can, I will acknowledge your greatness. But if not, you should hold your standards a little higher, and not go after the trolls that are willing to accept this new gender equality.

Actually, by letting the female pay for her part, you show that you respect her as your equal. THAT is how a men should handel himself. Now if you think females are only a cum dump and are inferior, then pay for their stuff.

historiclegend:

You don't understand basic economics. If the jobs don't pay well enough they will move on to other jobs. Which will mean shit service for you. I have no clue where you are getting the idea of robots from, but we are very far from that, and it would be cheaper to pay people anyhow.

Well, I actually do. A job salary reflects its economic value. Walking 5 feet to deposit a beer on a table is hardly worth $2/h. And it doesn't have to be robots. My point is, the market will come up with something. As it ALWAYS did.

historiclegend:

Actually she didn't. And calling you a dipshit would hardly be impolite compared to the real world, so grow up. You were the one making racist claims without even knowing my background. Wouldn't that constitute as more impolite than calling someone a dipshit? I think so.

How am I racist? I'm probably the most pro-black, pro-mexican folk on WSO.

Holy shit, dude, what kind of bug crawled up your ass today?? My god, people like you...

7/4/12
Abdel:
dest149:

Primero: Good luck getting a girl to go out with you by telling her "hey I am going to take you to this really nice restaurant, but uhh I'm kind of a cheap skate so you need to go and serve on yourself, if you get thirsty, or want to eat, or your order is messed up, or if the table is dirty, or anything you may need, your going to need to do it yourself, and/or work with the chef or manager to get it done, instead of sitting down with me and talking and relaxing so I can feed you some stupid line about how pretty your eyes are so I can get in your pants (or try to any ways)."

What? Aren't men and women equal? Why do I need to pay for her?

o and ''good'' come back to my ''free market solution'' point. haha

dest149:

Segundo: You are paying for the food, by not tipping you are not paying for the service. Therefore you are freeloading off of everyone else who IS paying for the service that you seem to think is only worth $2.50 (but yet I am sure you think YOU are worthy of a amazing bonus at whatever dead end job you are currently employed in.

The price of the food that I'm paying for includes a: portion of the cost of the food + portion of the cost of the employee's salary.

dest149:

Tercero: You only make fun of yourself, and add to your f*cking ignorance because you don't know how to spell anything in Spanish, and by calling him a "Gringo" you are in fact acknowledging that he is not of Spanish descent, and so by telling him to go back to Mexico is completely counter intuitive.

So, I'm ignorant because I don't speak that lame spanish?

This was one of the lamest comeback on WSO history.

Fine, don't pay for her. You can suck your own dick. (although even if you did pay for her, I am sure you would be left alone anyways)
Servers do not receive a salary (another sign of your ignorance), they receive an hourly wage that is below minimum. And you yourself admit that it's only a portion, so it is up to you to cover the rest of it in the "tip", but I wouldn't expect an ignorant free loader like you to understand that.
Not knowing Spanish is not ignorance, but trying to speak it and use it's dialect when you openly admit that you don't know how to use it, and on top of it try and use it in a derogatory sense, yes does show that you're ignorant.
I could care less about what you think of my comeback. Because you are too stupid to realize that I am not giving you a comeback, but rather informing how stuff works. I can tell you haven't taken my advice and slapped yourself yet, because you just as dumb as you were when I last addressed you.

7/4/12
dest149:

Fine, don't pay for her. You can suck your own dick. (although even if you did pay for her, I am sure you would be left alone anyways)

o ok, so the females you go out with are prostitutes?
I rather buy a rolex than pay for sex amigo. If you have to pay, chances are, you're the one not getting it. lol

dest149:

Servers do not receive a salary (another sign of your ignorance), they receive an hourly wage that is below minimum. And you yourself admit that it's only a portion, so it is up to you to cover the rest of it in the "tip", but I wouldn't expect an ignorant free loader like you to understand that.

Well again, if the economic value of bringing a beer 5 feet away from my table was valued more than $2/hour (they are actually lucky to get a hourly wage when sometimes there are no clients), then they would get more than that. It is similar to an employee asking me to pay him $40k when he only brings in $30k. It is economically unfeasable.

dest149:

Not knowing Spanish is not ignorance, but trying to speak it and use it's dialect when you openly admit that you don't know how to use it, and on top of it try and use it in a derogatory sense, yes does show that you're ignorant.

No, it shows that I couldn't care less about a useless/inefficient language.

dest149:

I could care less about what you think of my comeback. Because you are too stupid to realize that I am not giving you a comeback, but rather informing how stuff works. I can tell you haven't taken my advice and slapped yourself yet, because you just as dumb as you were when I last addressed you.

Ok, I hurt your feelings. I'm sorry Dorothy. I really am.

7/4/12

Saying go back to Mexico and using slang like gringo may be racist?

And you obviously have never worked in a restaurant before. Waiters and waitresses do a lot more than bring you food. The guys who clean the table get tipped out by them, so you would have to clean your own table as stated above. And any refill would have to be gotten by yourself, and when you decide you want a side of bordelaise sauce with your filet you'll have to get that for yourself. You are making a horrible argument. You can't do all the things a waiter does. And if no one were to tip, why would qualified people go into that field? THEY WOULDN'T. Simple as that.

When you go to a bar do you like looking at ugly as fuck bartenders? Probably not. The premium is paid in tips. That's why they take the job.

And back to the women part, obviously you don't score with the more attractive part of the population, so no one cares what your opinion is anyways. (For those reading, always pay for your dates meal)

7/4/12

historiclegend:

why would qualified people go into that field?

Wonder how qualified you need to be if a monkey can do your job?

historiclegend:

When you go to a bar do you like looking at ugly as fuck bartenders? Probably not. The premium is paid in tips. That's why they take the job.

What? I go to a bar to get drunk. If I have to pay extra money only because that female organism happened to have a good facial structure, then I'd rather not see her and look at better looking females on google for free. Following your logic, if the female bartender is ugly, they should offer me a discount? lol

historiclegend:

And back to the women part, obviously you don't score with the more attractive part of the population, so no one cares what your opinion is anyways. (For those reading, always pay for your dates meal)

Let me give you a 101 lesson here. Attractive females only make guys whom they consider suckers, pay for their things.

You're talking/acting as if females were this mystic creatures. Dude, they are similar to dudes but with a pussy. Every morning, they wake up. take a shit and fart.

Chill out

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7/4/12

It's a cultural thing. People serving in Japan don't make any more than their counterparts in the US. But they don't stand there expecting to be respected and recognized for the huge contribution of dishing out a tray.

Problem is not that "this is how the overall economy works", problem is that it has become an expectation at a national scale. The logic that absence of tipping would reduce the quality of people working in this industry is flimsy at best.

You only need to look at countries where tipping is not the norm. Often, the service is in fact better there.

7/4/12

Robots? Where are you from where they have robots that serve food?

Yea I guess you're paying, but you're also stiffing the waitress too. Cool guy you are.

I've been to lunch with people that don't tip, and I always make up the difference because of how embarrassed I would feel to leave without tipping properly. I never go out with them again either. So good luck in life bro with your attitude.

7/4/12

To all the Excel zombies who gave me MS, take this

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

7/4/12

I'm just going to assume you're not from America and call it a night. You're fucking retarded.

7/4/12
historiclegend:

I'm just going to assume you're not from America and call it a night. You're fucking retarded.

Yay, personal attacks as a final counter argument.

Abdel: 1
Mexicanos: 0

Good night muchacho.

7/8/12

^^^ looks similar to...

Abdel:
historiclegend:

I'm just going to assume you're not from America and call it a night. You're fucking retarded.

Yay, personal attacks as a final counter argument.

Abdel: 1
Mexicanos: 0

Good night muchacho.

And I'll be dead by the time that will happen. People that aren't antisocial appreciate interaction with real people when they go out, at least I do. Otherwise what's the point of going out, or not going to fast food?

7/4/12

Okay, a few things here:

1) In the US, tipping is normal. In other countries where it isn't, the prices are higher. There is a generally accepted amount to pay the server to bring it to a roughly equivalent price, maybe a little higher or lower depending on the service.

2) Servers work for their money, it's not like they're sitting on their asses all day. Do they need a BA or BS to do their job? No, and that's why most servers make around $8-$12/hr (though unlike IBD, they're not getting over 40 hours per week).

3) If you don't think a server deserves a tip for bringing you food and/or drink, WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU GOING OUT. If you don't want to follow basic social conventions, why involve yourself in that part of society? Besides the fact that you'd look like a tool every time your friends/family/coworkers wanted to go out to eat.

4) When you tip the server, you're also tipping the busboy, barback, line cooks, or doorman depending on the situation. This may vary from 0-40% of what you've tipped.

5) If you're throwing down a tip on a $1,000 meal, there's most likely a reason. You're most likely in a fine dining establishment, where you're not only tipping the server to bring you your food and drink, but you're also tipping him for his/her knowledge of the food and drink being served to you.

6) If you're in a bar ordering drinks, or anywhere ordering anything for that matter, you're really tipping the server because you're a lazy fuck that won't walk to get their food or learn how to prepare it.

It's really pretty simple: if you don't want to tip then move to Europe, get off your lazy ass, or just don't tip. Don't tell me, despite the time I took to write this, I don't give a fuck about your tipping habits.

PS- Remember, when the server you never tip at that shitty deli you eat at has a cut in his lip and spits in your food, resulting in you contracting Hep C:

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer
"Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee

7/4/12

Thats why
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS79YzlFuL8

Don't fck with the people who serve your food

7/4/12

Why are you guys arguing what happens in America with someone who doesn't even live in America(Abdel)?

This confused me.

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

WSO is not your personal search function.

7/4/12
bfin:

Why are you guys arguing what happens in America with someone who doesn't even live in America(Abdel)?

This confused me.

Well, you're not even american, you're african.

7/4/12
Abdel:
bfin:

Why are you guys arguing what happens in America with someone who doesn't even live in America(Abdel)?

This confused me.

Well, you're not even american, you're african.

Where did I say anything about being American or not American? All I said is that you don't live in America. Nothing about being American. Of course with your tendencies you immediately point out a none important factor. Good Luck.

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

WSO is not your personal search function.

7/4/12
bfin:
Abdel:
bfin:

Why are you guys arguing what happens in America with someone who doesn't even live in America(Abdel)?

This confused me.

Well, you're not even american, you're african.

Where did I say anything about being American or not American? All I said is that you don't live in America. Nothing about being American. Of course with your tendencies you immediately point out a none important factor. Good Luck.

Well, tipping is happening as we speak all around the world. Some places function as in the US, some others don't.

So, using the fact that I'm not physically in the US as a reason for not discussing the matter with me is non sense.

7/4/12
Abdel:
bfin:
Abdel:
bfin:

Why are you guys arguing what happens in America with someone who doesn't even live in America(Abdel)?

This confused me.

Well, you're not even american, you're african.

Where did I say anything about being American or not American? All I said is that you don't live in America. Nothing about being American. Of course with your tendencies you immediately point out a none important factor. Good Luck.

Well, tipping is happening as we speak all around the world. Some places function as in the US, some others don't.

So, using the fact that I'm not physically in the US as a reason for not discussing the matter with me is non sense.

The thing is every example in this thread compares other countries to America in regards to tipping so since you don't live here there is no way that you'd be in any position to discuss our social norms. Just because other places function like the US doesn't mean that they are the US.

So not discussing a matter with you that pertains to the mainly to the US because you aren't in the US is a perfectly reasonable way to go about this situation.

Also liked how you had to use a different approach then the first one you used to respond to my comment, don't start cultural attacks, its just as bad as when people name call you.

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

WSO is not your personal search function.

7/4/12
bfin:

The thing is every example in this thread compares other countries to America in regards to tipping so since you don't live here there is no way that you'd be in any position to discuss our social norms. Just because other places function like the US doesn't mean that they are the US.

So not discussing a matter with you that pertains to the mainly to the US because you aren't in the US is a perfectly reasonable way to go about this situation.

If I was discussing the level of the tip someone should give, then you might be right. However, I'm discussing the whole concept of tipping, which is universal.

Also, if you haven't noticed yet, the US is not a country per say. It is an ideal where anyone on the planet can go and try to succeed.

bfin:

Also liked how you had to use a different approach then the first one you used to respond to my comment, don't start cultural attacks, its just as bad as when people name call you.

Well, I found your ''defend america from debates'' type of attitude rather funny. So I thought it was important to remind you that you're not a 'real' american. The founders of America were not africans, they did not intend to live with africans nor did they intend to give them citizenship.

If I were you, I'd do that DNA test to find where I'm from and head back there with my own people.

7/4/12
Abdel:
bfin:

The thing is every example in this thread compares other countries to America in regards to tipping so since you don't live here there is no way that you'd be in any position to discuss our social norms. Just because other places function like the US doesn't mean that they are the US.

So not discussing a matter with you that pertains to the mainly to the US because you aren't in the US is a perfectly reasonable way to go about this situation.

If I was discussing the level of the tip someone should give, then you might be right. However, I'm discussing the whole concept of tipping, which is universal.

Also, if you haven't noticed yet, the US is not a country per say. It is an ideal where anyone on the planet can go and try to succeed.

bfin:

Also liked how you had to use a different approach then the first one you used to respond to my comment, don't start cultural attacks, its just as bad as when people name call you.

Well, I found your ''defend america from debates'' type of attitude rather funny. So I thought it was important to remind you that you're not a 'real' american. The founders of America were not africans, they did not intend to live with africans nor did they intend to give them citizenship.

If I were you, I'd do that DNA test to find where I'm from and head back there with my own people.

Your idiocy is astounding. The founders of America were the indigenous Indian tribes, you may be referring to the United States of America, in which case the founders are dead and lived in a different time with different cultural attitudes, there was a time when women didn't have a say in anything (not too long ago in fact) but that's not to say now that that things have changed it's not for the better.

If I were you I would go find some empty island in the middle of no where and isolate myself from the rest of the world like a leper. It's been a while since I have seen someone so blatantly naive. It's funny to me that you try and play the sex card to your advantage and talk about how women are equals but then try and use the race card and use it as an insult. Don't try the race card with me because I am sure whatever race you are from it's one that has it's own cultural stereotypes that can be played on, just like anyone else.

It ties in to the whole tipping thing, learn how to coexist, and realize you aren't the only person in the world that deserves things. Do your part by being respectful, and giving credit where credit is due. I have never personally been a server, but I know it entails a lot of work, especially at high throughput restaurants, get off your high horse and embrace reality.

7/4/12
dest149:

It's funny to me that you try and play the sex card to your advantage and talk about how women are equals but then try and use the race card and use it as an insult.

Well I'm not using anything. I'm stating facts. If what I'm saying is not based on facts, then get at me with the data =)

o right, my facts are correct. That is why you can only get back at me with personal attacks filled with emotions.

dest149:

Don't try the race card with me because I am sure whatever race you are from it's one that has it's own cultural stereotypes that can be played on, just like anyone else.

Well, cultural stereotypes or not, my race achieved great things. We can have fun on futilities but when it comes down to advancements to humanity, we did our part way before your race did anything.

dest149:

It ties in to the whole tipping thing, learn how to coexist, and realize you aren't the only person in the world that deserves things. Do your part by being respectful, and giving credit where credit is due. I have never personally been a server, but I know it entails a lot of work, especially at high throughput restaurants, get off your high horse and embrace reality.

Keep your lessons to yourself buddy.

All I'm doing is approaching this from an economic point of view. I will not pay for something more than its worth. How is this hard to understand for a finance guy?

7/4/12
bfin:

Why are you guys arguing what happens in America with someone who doesn't even live in America(Abdel)?

This confused me.

I didn't figure out that he was from America until after I had already started. Took me long enough to figure out though.

To Abdel: If you ever visit, my advice is to tip, unless you want to be thought of as a schmuck. Pay for your dates here too.

7/4/12

This troll sure got a lot of responses.

At least, I hope he was trolling...

7/7/12

Abdel, if you were going to make another profile to post this, why not use it for the comments also?

GBS

7/7/12

As the saying goes, "When in Rome, do as the Romans." In the United States, we tip servers because of the nature of the restaurant industry--the restaurant industry has some of the worst profit margins and highest company turnover rates of any industry. People are very entrepreneurial in the U.S. and as a result there are countless restaurants that are in fierce competition with one another. Most restaurants just barely get by. Through laws and economic and cultural evolution servers typically get paid well under minimum wage. As a result of the depressing of labor costs, food can be served at more competitive prices. However, since servers make as little as $1.25/hour, the cultural norm is that for average or above service the customer helps make up the difference with their tips.

If you don't want to tip then that's between you and God. Those times when I don't want to tip I typically cook or make my own drinks. But we do live in a free society, so if you don't want to tip then that's your right. I tip because I recognize 1) the "economic arbitrage" that I'm receiving in better food prices and 2) that the servers are not being paid living wages as a result of the economic reality of fierce competition. Given these realities, I make a deliberate choice about when to go out to a place where tipping is expected, and when I make conscious, adult choice to patronage said restaurant then I submit myself to the cultural reality of the situation and tip. And I happily tip because people matter, and I tip without coercion by government, which means my choice to do what is right or wrong is FREE.

7/7/12

I don't agree with the premise: "When in Rome, do as the Romans." Following that logic, if I was in Germany in the 1940's then I should of followed that same premise: ''When in Nazi Germany, do as the Nazi's'' i.e. kill jewish people, rat on my jewish neighbors to the SS and so on.

That being said, my point remains the same, walking 5 feet to bring me a beer is not worth $2/hour, let alone a tip. Actually, it should be free because I'm spending money in that place.

Also, when you say ''when I make conscious, adult choice '', I consider my position to be as conscious and as adult since it is based on economics and not on fear and social pressure.

7/7/12
Abdel:

I don't agree with the premise: "When in Rome, do as the Romans." Following that logic, if I was in Germany in the 1940's then I should of followed that same premise: ''When in Nazi Germany, do as the Nazi's'' i.e. kill jewish people, rat on my jewish neighbors to the SS and so on.

That being said, my point remains the same, walking 5 feet to bring me a beer is not worth $2/hour, let alone a tip. Actually, it should be free because I'm spending money in that place.

Also, when you say ''when I make conscious, adult choice '', I consider my position to be as conscious and as adult since it is based on economics and not on fear and social pressure.

So taking off your shoes in an Asian person's household is akin to being complicit in the genocide of the Jews...

Yeah....

Let me sum up the position as this--if you don't want to tip then that's your right. There are consequences to your freedom and if you accept the possible social consequences then whether or not you tip a server is between you and your conscience and/or you and God. As for me and most of the rest of America (as we are, in fact, Americans), we will continue to act on our own consciences and happily tip those who work for an honest living. If that makes me an idiot then so be it.

7/7/12

Well, I'm not judging you and certainly not calling you an idiot.

However, going back at your premise "When in Rome, do as the Romans", I still think it is a wrong premise to base your arguments on.

It doesn't have anything to do with asians, nor nazi's nor romans. The point of that premise is, ''hey man, in our territory, we do certain type of things, so you better do them if you want us to be cool with you''.

I guess we won't grab a lunch anytime soon.

7/7/12

No, it means that in the United States the restaurant industry economically operates in a different manner than it does in South Africa, Venezuela, Russia, Poland, or Italy. As a result of legislation and cultural evolution, servers make very little in base pay and culture has evolved such that without the good will and grace of a restaurant's customers, the servers would make poverty wages. Because Americans are man for man the most generous people in the world, we step up and do our part. Knowing this information, if you visit the U.S. and you don't tip then that's between you and your conscience, although it would be considered incredibly rude. Most decent people will examine cultural mores before traveling and, out of deference to their hosts, will typically submit to "Roman" culture. If you're too rude or stingy then thank God you are in America where you have the freedom to be a dick. Just don't make your stay too long.

7/7/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:

No, it means that in the United States the restaurant industry economically operates in a different manner than it does in South Africa, Venezuela, Russia, Poland, or Italy. As a result of legislation and cultural evolution, servers make very little in base pay and culture has evolved such that without the good will and grace of a restaurant's customers, the servers would make poverty wages.

Seems to me like this is a type of job that is set to disappear. It is only a matter of time.

Virginia Tech 4ever:

Because Americans are man for man the most generous people in the world, we step up and do our part.

Show me the supporting data please.

Virginia Tech 4ever:

Knowing this information, if you visit the U.S. and you don't tip then that's between you and your conscience, although it would be considered incredibly rude. Most decent people will examine cultural mores before traveling and, out of deference to their hosts, will typically submit to "Roman" culture. If you're too rude or stingy then thank God you are in America where you have the freedom to be a dick. Just don't make your stay too long.

Well, this is filled with insults. I'm disappointed.

7/8/12
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

No, it means that in the United States the restaurant industry economically operates in a different manner than it does in South Africa, Venezuela, Russia, Poland, or Italy. As a result of legislation and cultural evolution, servers make very little in base pay and culture has evolved such that without the good will and grace of a restaurant's customers, the servers would make poverty wages.

Seems to me like this is a type of job that is set to disappear. It is only a matter of time.

Virginia Tech 4ever:

Because Americans are man for man the most generous people in the world, we step up and do our part.

Show me the supporting data please.

Virginia Tech 4ever:

Knowing this information, if you visit the U.S. and you don't tip then that's between you and your conscience, although it would be considered incredibly rude. Most decent people will examine cultural mores before traveling and, out of deference to their hosts, will typically submit to "Roman" culture. If you're too rude or stingy then thank God you are in America where you have the freedom to be a dick. Just don't make your stay too long.

Well, this is filled with insults. I'm disappointed.

The job of server is not disappearing any time soon. You're some stingy foreigner who doesn't even live in the United States. The vast majority of Americans tip and business is going along as usual. You really have no idea what you're talking about if you think the job of waiter/waitress is going out. That's one of the dumbest statements I've ever read on WSO, which is saying something.

Proof? http://www.worldvision.org/news/new-report-ranks-m...

U.S. #1 most charitable nation on earth.

Lastly, since English is obviously your second language, I would submit to you that you re-read the paragraph. There wasn't a single insult in it--simply a paragraph of hypotheticals. Nothing directed at you at all unless you fit the description of the hypothetical.

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:

The job of server is not disappearing any time soon. You're some stingy foreigner who doesn't even live in the United States. The vast majority of Americans tip and business is going along as usual. You really have no idea what you're talking about if you think the job of waiter/waitress is going out. That's one of the dumbest statements I've ever read on WSO, which is saying something.

Well, I am not convinced that people will continue to slave away for $2/hour. Specially when more & more people are losing their jobs and cain't afford restaurents. As I've said, it is only a matter of time.

Virginia Tech 4ever:

Proof? http://www.worldvision.org/news/new-report-ranks-m...

U.S. #1 most charitable nation on earth.

That is cool for you guys. However, try to get me the detailed data. Who gives more in America? White people or black people or what other race? I don't want other races in america to take full credit when it's one race that did the work. That's free loading.

Virginia Tech 4ever:

Lastly, since English is obviously your second language, I would submit to you that you re-read the paragraph. There wasn't a single insult in it--simply a paragraph of hypotheticals. Nothing directed at you at all unless you fit the description of the hypothetical.

Well, English is my 3rd language and after re-reading the paragraph, there was an insult:

''Most DECENT people will examine cultural mores before traveling and, out of deference to their hosts, will typically submit to "Roman" culture.''

You just called me Indecent.

7/8/12
Abdel]
[quote=Virginia Tech 4ever:

Well, English is my 3rd language and after re-reading the paragraph, there was an insult:

''Most DECENT people will examine cultural mores before traveling and, out of deference to their hosts, will typically submit to "Roman" culture.''

You just called me Indecent.

This is a large assumption that he is referring to you, if you find yourself to be indecent then you will take this as an insult toward you, if you view yourself as a decent person then you will assume that he is just talking about you. So, maybe this isn't about VT and more about you.

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

WSO is not your personal search function.

7/8/12
bfin][quote=Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

Well, English is my 3rd language and after re-reading the paragraph, there was an insult:

''Most DECENT people will examine cultural mores before traveling and, out of deference to their hosts, will typically submit to "Roman" culture.''

You just called me Indecent.

This is a large assumption that he is referring to you, if you find yourself to be indecent then you will take this as an insult toward you, if you view yourself as a decent person then you will assume that he is just talking about you. So, maybe this isn't about VT and more about you.

Hmmm no, because in my previous post, I said that following the ''act like the romans in rome'' type of behavior is non-sense.

And he basically said that people who follow that behavior are decent people.

7/8/12
Abdel][quote=bfin:
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

Well, English is my 3rd language and after re-reading the paragraph, there was an insult:

''Most DECENT people will examine cultural mores before traveling and, out of deference to their hosts, will typically submit to "Roman" culture.''

You just called me Indecent.

This is a large assumption that he is referring to you, if you find yourself to be indecent then you will take this as an insult toward you, if you view yourself as a decent person then you will assume that he is just talking about you. So, maybe this isn't about VT and more about you.

Hmmm no, because in my previous post, I said that following the ''act like the romans in rome'' type of behavior is non-sense.

And he basically said that people who follow that behavior are decent people.

So you are then saying people who follow the behavior are non-nonsensical which would be an insult if we are going by your definition of insult.

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

WSO is not your personal search function.

7/8/12
bfin][quote=Abdel:
bfin:
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

Well, English is my 3rd language and after re-reading the paragraph, there was an insult:

''Most DECENT people will examine cultural mores before traveling and, out of deference to their hosts, will typically submit to "Roman" culture.''

You just called me Indecent.

This is a large assumption that he is referring to you, if you find yourself to be indecent then you will take this as an insult toward you, if you view yourself as a decent person then you will assume that he is just talking about you. So, maybe this isn't about VT and more about you.

Hmmm no, because in my previous post, I said that following the ''act like the romans in rome'' type of behavior is non-sense.

And he basically said that people who follow that behavior are decent people.

So you are then saying people who follow the behavior are non-nonsensical which would be an insult if we are going by your definition of insult.

Well, saying to someone that he is following a non-sensical behavior is nothing compared to calling him indecent.

7/8/12
Abdel][quote=bfin:
Abdel:
bfin:
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

Well, English is my 3rd language and after re-reading the paragraph, there was an insult:

''Most DECENT people will examine cultural mores before traveling and, out of deference to their hosts, will typically submit to "Roman" culture.''

You just called me Indecent.

This is a large assumption that he is referring to you, if you find yourself to be indecent then you will take this as an insult toward you, if you view yourself as a decent person then you will assume that he is just talking about you. So, maybe this isn't about VT and more about you.

Hmmm no, because in my previous post, I said that following the ''act like the romans in rome'' type of behavior is non-sense.

And he basically said that people who follow that behavior are decent people.

So you are then saying people who follow the behavior are nonsensical which would be an insult if we are going by your definition of insult.

Well, saying to someone that he is following a non-sensical behavior is nothing compared to calling him indecent.

That is just so relative, being indecent can be funny at times. I'd never want to be told what I'm saying/ doing is nonsensical

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

WSO is not your personal search function.

7/8/12
Abdel][quote=bfin:
Abdel:
bfin:
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

Well, English is my 3rd language and after re-reading the paragraph, there was an insult:

''Most DECENT people will examine cultural mores before traveling and, out of deference to their hosts, will typically submit to "Roman" culture.''

You just called me Indecent.

This is a large assumption that he is referring to you, if you find yourself to be indecent then you will take this as an insult toward you, if you view yourself as a decent person then you will assume that he is just talking about you. So, maybe this isn't about VT and more about you.

Hmmm no, because in my previous post, I said that following the ''act like the romans in rome'' type of behavior is non-sense.

And he basically said that people who follow that behavior are decent people.

So you are then saying people who follow the behavior are non-nonsensical which would be an insult if we are going by your definition of insult.

Well, saying to someone that he is following a non-sensical behavior is nothing compared to calling him indecent.

I believe the OP that you are concurring with titled the thread "If you tip you're an idiot". Just pointing that out...

The fact is, some people are racist, miserly sociopaths and you MAY (or may not) fit that description. If you fit the description then it's between you and your own conscience to work out.

7/8/12
Abdel][quote=bfin:
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

Well, English is my 3rd language and after re-reading the paragraph, there was an insult:

''Most DECENT people will examine cultural mores before traveling and, out of deference to their hosts, will typically submit to "Roman" culture.''

You just called me Indecent.

This is a large assumption that he is referring to you, if you find yourself to be indecent then you will take this as an insult toward you, if you view yourself as a decent person then you will assume that he is just talking about you. So, maybe this isn't about VT and more about you.

Hmmm no, because in my previous post, I said that following the ''act like the romans in rome'' type of behavior is non-sense.

And he basically said that people who follow that behavior are decent people.

If I'm insulting you you'll know when I'm insulting you. And that wasn't an insult nor was the paragraph "full of insults." I think you just know that it describes you and you find it insulting. The fact is, most decent people WILL attempt to abide by social mores in other cultures--that's called basic respect. If that doesn't describe you then you're an asshole.

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:

And that wasn't an insult nor was the paragraph "full of insults." I think you just know that it describes you and you find it insulting. The fact is, most decent people WILL attempt to abide by social mores in other cultures--that's called basic respect. If that doesn't describe you then you're an asshole.

Really? Let's see:

''incredibly rude'' = you called me rude
''Most decent people'' = you called me indecent
''you have the freedom to be a dick'' = you called me a dick
''Just don't make your stay too long.'' = now you're being rude
''f that doesn't describe you then you're an asshole'' = you called me an asshole

As I've said, full of insults.

7/8/12
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

And that wasn't an insult nor was the paragraph "full of insults." I think you just know that it describes you and you find it insulting. The fact is, most decent people WILL attempt to abide by social mores in other cultures--that's called basic respect. If that doesn't describe you then you're an asshole.

Really? Let's see:

''incredibly rude'' = you called me rude
''Most decent people'' = you called me indecent
''you have the freedom to be a dick'' = you called me a dick
''Just don't make your stay too long.'' = now you're being rude
''f that doesn't describe you then you're an asshole'' = you called me an asshole

As I've said, full of insults.

First of all, describing something as "rude" isn't an insult. That's describing something as rude....

I'll repeat this--the paragraph was directed at a hypothetical. If it describes you then you are rude, indecent, a dick and an asshole. If that bothers you then maybe you should reassess how you treat people. Just, uh, just a shot in the dark...

7/7/12

Also,

I tip as follows:

10/10 30%
9/10 25%
8/10 20%
7/10 15%
6/10 10%
5 and below $1

Luckily when I eat at target restaurants and semi target restaurants(think consulting restaurants Apple Bees, Chilies, Red Lobster and Olive Garden << I hate this italian food is kinda yucky love soup salad and breadsticks though but tbh i wouldn't be surprised if it goes bankrupt ) and not non target restaurants/devry restaurants(burger king, wendies, mc d ,etc ) except for drive thews

so i don't have to worry about people of 5 and below to often

also guys will just get 15% b/c I don't want to be gay judging how they look and stuff so they get a freebie

my 2c

7/8/12

What history will remember from this thread is the following:

Abdel = Defended his position with arguments

The rest= Attacked Abdel with insults since they lacked arguments.

7/8/12
Abdel:

What history will remember from this thread is the following:

Abdel = Defended his position with arguments

The rest= Attacked Abdel with insults since they lacked arguments.

Bro, I eviscerated your arguments on every single point.

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:
Abdel:

What history will remember from this thread is the following:

Abdel = Defended his position with arguments

The rest= Attacked Abdel with insults since they lacked arguments.

Bro, I eviscerated your arguments on every single point.

Well, my position was clear. I'm against the ''in rome act like romans'' behavior and you said, DECENT people follow that behavior.

Which makes me indecent = insult.

You eviscerated nothing. All I got from you was insults and frustration.

The only non-insult thing you've said is:

  • This is our territory, act like us.

That's basically it.

7/8/12

Whats funny is you still think this argument matters.

Only thing that matters: if you come to America and go out with people and don't tip you will be looked at as a social degenerate and no one will like you. Secondly, in the real world people are rude. Grow up.

7/8/12
historiclegend:

Whats funny is you still think this argument matters.

Only thing that matters: if you come to America and go out with people and don't tip you will be looked at as a social degenerate and no one will like you. Secondly, in the real world people are rude. Grow up.

Well, I'll be at the WSO conference.

I'll go out to restaurents and will tip 0%. Hopefully, they'll spit in my food so I can make some quick bucks with a lawsuit.

The economic fundamentals are with me.

7/8/12

Actually I think VT summarized the US restaurant service industry pretty well.. Have you even been to America to maybe get an understanding for our POV?

7/8/12

What are you talking about? I, like every other American on this thread, have pointed out the economics as to why restaurants pay the way they pay and why as a result people tip. This was pointed out to be how things culturally work in America.

Your only point is that American culture is wrong and that you don't want to follow it when you visit. I, like everyone else, have pointed out that if don't follow American culture when in the United States of America then you will come off like a total jerk to the people you're with and you'll be short changing your server as the restaurant has lowered the price of your bill to allow for you to provide a tip.

You don't have ANY valid points--your only position is that servers don't do enough to justify you paying an additional service charge and the rest of us have pointed out that you pay the service charge because their below minimum wage hourly wage is effectively subsidizing your meal. And here we are 100 posts later and your only point is now that people have insulted you.

In the interim, you've managed to make 2 of the most moronic statements in the history of this website, saying 1) that servers shouldn't even get paid $2/hour for the work that they do and 2) that waiter jobs will soon be dying out as a result of the pay structure.

7/8/12

The reason for going to the conference would be to network, since I'm assuming you can get most of the information from it online. So if networking is the purpose, and in order for networking to be effective, people have to like you, why not do your best to make it a successful trip?

7/8/12
historiclegend:

The reason for going to the conference would be to network, since I'm assuming you can get most of the information from it online. So if networking is the purpose, and in order for networking to be effective, people have to like you, why not do your best to make it a successful trip?

So, you're asking me not to be myself and go against my chore values (that are based on solid arguments) just to please some corny individual who's life is to look at an excel spreadsheet for 14 hours a day?

Are you serious?

7/8/12
Abdel:
historiclegend:

The reason for going to the conference would be to network, since I'm assuming you can get most of the information from it online. So if networking is the purpose, and in order for networking to be effective, people have to like you, why not do your best to make it a successful trip?

So, you're asking me not to be myself and go against my chore values (that are based on solid arguments) just to please some corny individual who's life is to look at an excel spreadsheet 14 hours a day?

Are you serious?

Curious what "core value" you would ascribe to tipping servers 0%? I would say that this would reflect a lack of values and the presence of possible sociopathy.

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:
Abdel:
historiclegend:

The reason for going to the conference would be to network, since I'm assuming you can get most of the information from it online. So if networking is the purpose, and in order for networking to be effective, people have to like you, why not do your best to make it a successful trip?

So, you're asking me not to be myself and go against my chore values (that are based on solid arguments) just to please some corny individual who's life is to look at an excel spreadsheet 14 hours a day?

Are you serious?

Curious what "core value" you would ascribe to tipping servers 0%? I would say that this would reflect a lack of values and the presence of possible sociopathy.

Well, the restaurent should be grateful that I'm spending my money there instead of their competitor = they go out of business.

7/8/12
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:
Abdel:
historiclegend:

The reason for going to the conference would be to network, since I'm assuming you can get most of the information from it online. So if networking is the purpose, and in order for networking to be effective, people have to like you, why not do your best to make it a successful trip?

So, you're asking me not to be myself and go against my chore values (that are based on solid arguments) just to please some corny individual who's life is to look at an excel spreadsheet 14 hours a day?

Are you serious?

Curious what "core value" you would ascribe to tipping servers 0%? I would say that this would reflect a lack of values and the presence of possible sociopathy.

Well, the restaurent should be grateful that I'm spending my money there instead of their competitor = they go out of business.

The restaurant receives no direct benefit from a tip nor does it require you to tip. What you're saying makes no sense.

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:
Abdel:
historiclegend:

The reason for going to the conference would be to network, since I'm assuming you can get most of the information from it online. So if networking is the purpose, and in order for networking to be effective, people have to like you, why not do your best to make it a successful trip?

So, you're asking me not to be myself and go against my chore values (that are based on solid arguments) just to please some corny individual who's life is to look at an excel spreadsheet 14 hours a day?

Are you serious?

Curious what "core value" you would ascribe to tipping servers 0%? I would say that this would reflect a lack of values and the presence of possible sociopathy.

Well, the restaurent should be grateful that I'm spending my money there instead of their competitor = they go out of business.

The restaurant receives no direct benefit from a tip nor does it require you to tip. What you're saying makes no sense.

Re-read what I said. If I'm spending money on a meal at a restaurent, who will benefit? THE RESTAURENT.

7/8/12
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:
Abdel:
historiclegend:

The reason for going to the conference would be to network, since I'm assuming you can get most of the information from it online. So if networking is the purpose, and in order for networking to be effective, people have to like you, why not do your best to make it a successful trip?

So, you're asking me not to be myself and go against my chore values (that are based on solid arguments) just to please some corny individual who's life is to look at an excel spreadsheet 14 hours a day?

Are you serious?

Curious what "core value" you would ascribe to tipping servers 0%? I would say that this would reflect a lack of values and the presence of possible sociopathy.

Well, the restaurent should be grateful that I'm spending my money there instead of their competitor = they go out of business.

The restaurant receives no direct benefit from a tip nor does it require you to tip. What you're saying makes no sense.

Re-read what I said. If I'm spending money on a meal at a restaurent, who will benefit? THE RESTAURENT.

There's no point in what you're saying. You're saying your core value is to pay 0% to servers because restaurants should just be grateful you are spending your money there and not competitors. Where you make no sense is in your assumption that the restaurant gets any direct benefit from a tip. It doesn't...

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:
Abdel:
historiclegend:

The reason for going to the conference would be to network, since I'm assuming you can get most of the information from it online. So if networking is the purpose, and in order for networking to be effective, people have to like you, why not do your best to make it a successful trip?

So, you're asking me not to be myself and go against my chore values (that are based on solid arguments) just to please some corny individual who's life is to look at an excel spreadsheet 14 hours a day?

Are you serious?

Curious what "core value" you would ascribe to tipping servers 0%? I would say that this would reflect a lack of values and the presence of possible sociopathy.

Well, the restaurent should be grateful that I'm spending my money there instead of their competitor = they go out of business.

The restaurant receives no direct benefit from a tip nor does it require you to tip. What you're saying makes no sense.

Re-read what I said. If I'm spending money on a meal at a restaurent, who will benefit? THE RESTAURENT.

There's no point in what you're saying. You're saying your core value is to pay 0% to servers because restaurants should just be grateful you are spending your money there and not competitors. Where you make no sense is in your assumption that the restaurant gets any direct benefit from a tip. It doesn't...

No, one of my chore values is to stick to my principles. One of those happens to be:

  • Do not pay for more than its worth. Econ 101
7/8/12
historiclegend:

The reason for going to the conference would be to network, since I'm assuming you can get most of the information from it online. So if networking is the purpose, and in order for networking to be effective, people have to like you, why not do your best to make it a successful trip?

There's just too much cognitive dissonance coming from this guy...

A Ron Paul libertarian who would ascribe as intrusive the use of private funds to tip people for their services.

A networker who laughs at the concept of cultural sensitivity.

A capitalist that has stated, more or less, that people should work for free (it was a stunning comment--I hope it was in jest).

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:

There's just too much cognitive dissonance coming from this guy...

Yet again, another personal attack instead of valid arguments.

This thread will go down as one of my greatest wso intellectual victories.

7/8/12
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

There's just too much cognitive dissonance coming from this guy...

Yet again, another personal attack instead of valid arguments.

This thread will go down as one of my greatest wso intellectual victories.

LOL. I just gave you 3 examples of your cognitive dissonance, which demonstrates the error in your logic. Saying you are falling prey to "cognitive dissonance" is not an insult or a personal attack--it's simply fact that I can prove--and did.

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

There's just too much cognitive dissonance coming from this guy...

Yet again, another personal attack instead of valid arguments.

This thread will go down as one of my greatest wso intellectual victories.

LOL. I just gave you 3 examples of your cognitive dissonance, which demonstrates the error in your logic. Saying you are falling prey to "cognitive dissonance" is not an insult or a personal attack--it's simply fact that I can prove--and did.

It is automatically a personal attack since it is not an argument related to the topic in question but something that is related to my person, which of course, is based on no solid data/fact.

7/8/12
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

There's just too much cognitive dissonance coming from this guy...

Yet again, another personal attack instead of valid arguments.

This thread will go down as one of my greatest wso intellectual victories.

LOL. I just gave you 3 examples of your cognitive dissonance, which demonstrates the error in your logic. Saying you are falling prey to "cognitive dissonance" is not an insult or a personal attack--it's simply fact that I can prove--and did.

It is automatically a personal attack since it is not an argument related to the topic in question but something that is related to my person, which of course, is based on no solid data/fact.

Umm, let me just point out that I'm actually the only one who has provided any ACTUAL data/fact in these debate...

What, uhh, facts, data or logic have you actually brought other than asserting no knowledge of American culture?

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

There's just too much cognitive dissonance coming from this guy...

Yet again, another personal attack instead of valid arguments.

This thread will go down as one of my greatest wso intellectual victories.

LOL. I just gave you 3 examples of your cognitive dissonance, which demonstrates the error in your logic. Saying you are falling prey to "cognitive dissonance" is not an insult or a personal attack--it's simply fact that I can prove--and did.

It is automatically a personal attack since it is not an argument related to the topic in question but something that is related to my person, which of course, is based on no solid data/fact.

Umm, let me just point out that I'm actually the only one who has provided any ACTUAL data/fact in these debate...

What, uhh, facts, data or logic have you actually brought other than asserting no knowledge of American culture?

I explained to you the principle behind your ''roman'' motto and why it was ok to be against it.

7/8/12

@VT

Again, if they get paid $2/h it is because it represents the value of their work. I mean come on, how hard is it to walk 5 feet from a table to another. A robot can do it for free.

Also, if restaurents cain't compete, then they ought to go out of business. Find something else to do.

As to my ''moronic'' (insult again) statements, they are everything but that.

1) My point was, if I'm spending money in a restaurent, they should thank me by not making me pay the server. Either that or lose a customer to your competitor.

2) This is a no brainer. More and more people will continue to lose their jobs = less clients in restaurents = more firing in that sector.

7/8/12

Abdel,

Whether you agree with it or not, there are certain times where it's worth conforming to cultural norms like tipping when you visit the US whether you like it or not. Just because you disagree with the notion of tipping does not invalidate its purpose here in the US. If you ever get the chance to work as a waiter in a US restaurant, you'll see it from the opposite side. Oh, just wait til you come across the waiter or waitress that calls you out for leaving no tip or the "pittance tip" of a buck or so. Those are fun to deal with.

7/8/12
Frieds:

Abdel,

Whether you agree with it or not, there are certain times where it's worth conforming to cultural norms like tipping when you visit the US whether you like it or not. Just because you disagree with the notion of tipping does not invalidate its purpose here in the US. If you ever get the chance to work as a waiter in a US restaurant, you'll see it from the opposite side. Oh, just wait til you come across the waiter or waitress that calls you out for leaving no tip or the "pittance tip" of a buck or so. Those are fun to deal with.

Frieds,

As I've told VT, the problem with the ''act like a romans in rome'', is that it does not hold the logic test (as in my nazi germany example).

Now sure, it will make my life easier. But on based on principale , I refuse to do it due to social pressure of fear (unlike most of the people here).

I mean, if I see that the server is giving me more added value, then he will deserve more cash ( It never happened yet). Be if he/she only brings a beer that is 5 feet away from me, that is not worth $2/h, let alone a tip.

7/8/12
Abdel:
Frieds:

Abdel,

Whether you agree with it or not, there are certain times where it's worth conforming to cultural norms like tipping when you visit the US whether you like it or not. Just because you disagree with the notion of tipping does not invalidate its purpose here in the US. If you ever get the chance to work as a waiter in a US restaurant, you'll see it from the opposite side. Oh, just wait til you come across the waiter or waitress that calls you out for leaving no tip or the "pittance tip" of a buck or so. Those are fun to deal with.

Frieds,

As I've told VT, the problem with the ''act like a romans in rome'', is that it does not hold the logic test (as in my nazi germany example).

Now sure, it will make my life easier. But on based on principale , I refuse to do it due to social pressure of fear (unlike most of the people here).

I mean, if I see that the server is giving me more added value, then he will deserve more cash ( It never happened yet). Be if he/she only brings a beer that is 5 feet away from me, that is not worth $2/h, let alone a tip.

Again, what are you talking about? Your Nazi Germany example was a red herring and was indefensible, as I pointed out--it would be like comparing taking off your shoes in an Asian household to a foreign visitor to 1941 Nazi Germany being complicit in the genocide of millions of people. Your example was a hyperbolic red herring that doesn't even pass the sniff test.

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:

Again, what are you talking about? Your Nazi Germany example was a red herring and was indefensible, as I pointed out--it would be like comparing taking off your shoes in an Asian household to a foreign visitor to 1941 Nazi Germany being complicit in the genocide of millions of people. Your example was a hyperbolic red herring that doesn't even pass the sniff test.

Not it was not. The principle is the same: '' in our territory, act like us''.

Well guess how were most germans acting in the 1940's? Snitching on their jewish neighbors, killing them etc.

7/8/12
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

Again, what are you talking about? Your Nazi Germany example was a red herring and was indefensible, as I pointed out--it would be like comparing taking off your shoes in an Asian household to a foreign visitor to 1941 Nazi Germany being complicit in the genocide of millions of people. Your example was a hyperbolic red herring that doesn't even pass the sniff test.

Not it was not. The principle is the same: '' in our territory, act like us''.

Well guess how were most germans acting in the 1940's? Snitching on their jewish neighbors, killing them etc.

No, because the Nazi Germany example is an example of black and white/right and wrong. Wearing a hijab, removing your shoes, tipping a waitress, stopping at stop signs, etc. are not black and white/right or wrong scenarios--they are examples of cultural differences. Mass murder isn't a cultural difference--it's mass murder.

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

Again, what are you talking about? Your Nazi Germany example was a red herring and was indefensible, as I pointed out--it would be like comparing taking off your shoes in an Asian household to a foreign visitor to 1941 Nazi Germany being complicit in the genocide of millions of people. Your example was a hyperbolic red herring that doesn't even pass the sniff test.

Not it was not. The principle is the same: '' in our territory, act like us''.

Well guess how were most germans acting in the 1940's? Snitching on their jewish neighbors, killing them etc.

No, because the Nazi Germany example is an example of black and white/right and wrong. Wearing a hijab, removing your shoes, tipping a waitress, stopping at stop signs, etc. are not black and white/right or wrong scenarios--they are examples of cultural differences. Mass murder isn't a cultural difference--it's mass murder.

No. '' act like a roman in rome'' = follow the culture of that place.

It just happened that in germany of 1940, the culture was to eliminate innocent jewish people. Like it or not, it was the culture. Snitching on their jewish neighbors was a national sport.

Now in Lybia, the current culture is to solve every problem via the use of guns (know this guy who lost 3 of his cousins in the last 6 months there due to gun violence). Like it or not, that is their current culture and that is what the ''act like romans in rome'' means.

7/8/12
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

Again, what are you talking about? Your Nazi Germany example was a red herring and was indefensible, as I pointed out--it would be like comparing taking off your shoes in an Asian household to a foreign visitor to 1941 Nazi Germany being complicit in the genocide of millions of people. Your example was a hyperbolic red herring that doesn't even pass the sniff test.

Not it was not. The principle is the same: '' in our territory, act like us''.

Well guess how were most germans acting in the 1940's? Snitching on their jewish neighbors, killing them etc.

No, because the Nazi Germany example is an example of black and white/right and wrong. Wearing a hijab, removing your shoes, tipping a waitress, stopping at stop signs, etc. are not black and white/right or wrong scenarios--they are examples of cultural differences. Mass murder isn't a cultural difference--it's mass murder.

No. '' act like a roman in rome'' = follow the culture of that place.

It just happened that in germany of 1940, the culture was to eliminate innocent jewish people. Like it or not, it was the culture. Snitching on their jewish neighbors was a national sport.

Now in Lybia, the current culture is to solve every problem via the use of guns (know this guy who lost 3 of his cousins in the last 6 months there due to gun violence). Like it or not, that is their current culture and that is what the ''act like romans in rome'' means.

The only way your red herring is valid is if it's immoral to tip a waitress. If it's immoral to tip a waitress, to remove your shoes in a person's house, or to wear a hijab then your comparison holds. Since it's not immoral then you have presented nothing but a valid sentiment that killing Jews is wrong but it doesn't address the question at hand.

"When in Rome..." is not an absolute statement. It's simply an old adage that addresses cultural sensitivity. If your entire premise is that "When in Rome..." is an absolute statement then you're being disagreeable for disagreement's sake.

7/8/12
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

Again, what are you talking about? Your Nazi Germany example was a red herring and was indefensible, as I pointed out--it would be like comparing taking off your shoes in an Asian household to a foreign visitor to 1941 Nazi Germany being complicit in the genocide of millions of people. Your example was a hyperbolic red herring that doesn't even pass the sniff test.

Not it was not. The principle is the same: '' in our territory, act like us''.

Well guess how were most germans acting in the 1940's? Snitching on their jewish neighbors, killing them etc.

Yes that is the basic principle, try to fit in with the people you're visiting. It's polite.

7/8/12
historiclegend:
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

Again, what are you talking about? Your Nazi Germany example was a red herring and was indefensible, as I pointed out--it would be like comparing taking off your shoes in an Asian household to a foreign visitor to 1941 Nazi Germany being complicit in the genocide of millions of people. Your example was a hyperbolic red herring that doesn't even pass the sniff test.

Not it was not. The principle is the same: '' in our territory, act like us''.

Well guess how were most germans acting in the 1940's? Snitching on their jewish neighbors, killing them etc.

Yes that is the basic principle, try to fit in with the people you're visiting. It's polite.

We're making progress here. We finally have someone who confirms that the underlying principle is the same.

Now, the question becomes, if I feel like the principle is wrong, should I be forced to follow it?

In ancient greece, the culture was to have sex with little boys. Act like romans you say? lol

7/8/12
Abdel:
historiclegend:
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

Again, what are you talking about? Your Nazi Germany example was a red herring and was indefensible, as I pointed out--it would be like comparing taking off your shoes in an Asian household to a foreign visitor to 1941 Nazi Germany being complicit in the genocide of millions of people. Your example was a hyperbolic red herring that doesn't even pass the sniff test.

Not it was not. The principle is the same: '' in our territory, act like us''.

Well guess how were most germans acting in the 1940's? Snitching on their jewish neighbors, killing them etc.

Yes that is the basic principle, try to fit in with the people you're visiting. It's polite.

We're making progress here. We finally have someone who confirms that the underlying principle is the same.

Now, the question becomes, if I feel like the principle is wrong, should I be forced to follow it?

In ancient greece, the culture was to have sex with little boys. Act like romans you say? lol

Again, you're comparing tipping a waitress to having sex with children and to mass murder. If you truly believe it's immoral to tip a waitress then I guess you have a valid point.

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:

Again, you're comparing tipping a waitress to having sex with children and to mass murder.

What are you talking about? I'm comparing the principle used behind those situations, which is the same one.

7/8/12
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

Again, you're comparing tipping a waitress to having sex with children and to mass murder.

What are you talking about? I'm comparing the principle used behind those situations, which is the same one.

No you're not because the principle is entirely different--you're comparing situations where a culture norm is immoral to a where a cultural norm is annoying or, dare I say, "foreign". That's vastly different.

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:

No you're not because the principle is entirely different--you're comparing situations where a culture norm is immoral to a where a cultural norm is annoying or, dare I say, "foreign". That's vastly different.

The point of a principle is not to be moral or immoral. It is only to base your arguments on.

7/8/12
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

No you're not because the principle is entirely different--you're comparing situations where a culture norm is immoral to a where a cultural norm is annoying or, dare I say, "foreign". That's vastly different.

The point of a principle is not to be moral or immoral. It is only to base your arguments on.

Jesus Christ...

How do you not see the logical fallacy? What you're saying is that Nazi Germany and Alexander the Great practiced immoral social norms, hence it would not be right to say that you would follow ALL social norms. But the point is, nobody is talking about following immoral social norms--we are talking about social norms that violate no moral law, that are simply "foreign" to people.

We are talking about tipping, traffic lights, clothing, handshakes, etc. NOBODY is talking about violating your conscience. Nobody is arguing that if Saudi Arabian society approved of rape that you should rape women. We're saying that there are basic social norms in each culture that are not immoral, just foreign--and many of those norms would be offensive if not followed by a visitor, e.g. it would be offensive for me to not take my shoes off when my Vietnamese guest requests that I do. I comply because it doesn't violate my conscience, it simply runs against what I find to be normal.

7/8/12

It might be moral or immoral to you but that is NOT the point. The important thing is the underlying principle (this is like the 100x I'm repeating this).

I refused to bow down and pay for something that is not worth its value, simply due to social pressure or fear.

7/8/12

Bro look at this as a learning experience, and not a disagreement. Use this info for while you're in the US, it will payoff for you. Do as you want if you're by yourself or in your country. Social norms matter, and being likable is going to get you a lot farther in life. Continue going to these networking events though, practice makes perfect.

7/8/12

Where do you live? Maybe that will shed some light on to why you think $2/hr is unworthy of being a waitress. In the US at least, it is hard work, and is way below the amount needed to live off of. We've already explained that in the US the prices are structured to anticipate a tip being given.

Social norms and being liked matter, even for geniuses. No matter who you are it matters,

7/8/12

Abdel you're going to the WSO conference? Will you actually reveal yourself, in other words will you say your real name and follow it with that your wso username is or will you just leave that out so people don't judge you?

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

WSO is not your personal search function.

7/8/12
bfin:

Abdel you're going to the WSO conference? Will you actually reveal yourself, in other words will you say your real name and follow it with that your wso username is or will you just leave that out so people don't judge you?

I'll be there dolo and I don't know anyone and it will be my 1st time in nyc (was there once but only for 30 min or so - just came to sign a contract then dipped out).

If there are people who ask me who I am, of course I'll tell them Abdel. It will be an occasion for you to use your physical presence as an argument against my brain power.

7/8/12

bfin:
Abdel you're going to the WSO conference? Will you actually reveal yourself, in other words will you say your real name and follow it with that your wso username is or will you just leave that out so people don't judge you?
7/8/12

I still don't understand how mass murder is on the same level as a social norm.

And I'm assuming if someone put a gun to your head and said leave a tip, you would.

7/8/12
historiclegend:

I still don't understand how mass murder is on the same level as a social norm.

To my germans and greeks example. We're not talking about isolated events here. We're talking about trends in a society that is adopted by a majority of people during a certain period of time. And in both of my examples, it was a majority of people who had that lifestyle or who was ok with it.

historiclegend:

And I'm assuming if someone put a gun to your head and said leave a tip, you would.

It is called taxation.

7/8/12

What Adel is saying is that he finds it immoral to tip a waitress. If it somehow violates his conscience then, well, it violates his conscience. While that makes no sense, it would at least be valid to say that I refuse to obey a cultural norm because it is immoral--that's at least valid.

I keep my shoes on all the time inside and I find it annoying when I'm asked to remove my shoes in a house full of cats and dirt. However, because it's not personally immoral or spiritually offensive--simply not my cultural norm--I submit to that norm because, well, I'm not a jerk...

But if you find it immoral to tip a waitress then there's nothing anyone could say to persuade you.

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:

What Adel is saying is that he finds it immoral to tip a waitress. If it somehow violates his conscience then, well, it violates his conscience. While that makes no sense, it would at least be valid to say that I refuse to obey a cultural norm because it is immoral--that's at least valid.

I keep my shoes on all the time inside and I find it annoying when I'm asked to remove my shoes in a house full of cats and dirt. However, because it's not personally immoral or spiritually offensive--simply not my cultural norm--I submit to that norm because, well, I'm not a jerk...

But if you find it immoral to tip a waitress then there's nothing anyone could say to persuade you.

Riiiiight. Forget about the principle that I defended and distort my comments. So now, instead of insults, you try to distort my comments as a new strategy since you cannot defeat me by arguments.

It's over VT, just give up.

Abdel: 1
VT: 0

7/8/12
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

What Adel is saying is that he finds it immoral to tip a waitress. If it somehow violates his conscience then, well, it violates his conscience. While that makes no sense, it would at least be valid to say that I refuse to obey a cultural norm because it is immoral--that's at least valid.

I keep my shoes on all the time inside and I find it annoying when I'm asked to remove my shoes in a house full of cats and dirt. However, because it's not personally immoral or spiritually offensive--simply not my cultural norm--I submit to that norm because, well, I'm not a jerk...

But if you find it immoral to tip a waitress then there's nothing anyone could say to persuade you.

Riiiiight. Forget about the principle that I defended and distort my comments. So now, instead of insults, you try to distort my comments as a new strategy since you cannot defeat me by arguments.

It's over VT, just give up.

Abdel: 1
VT: 0

How am I distoring what you're saying? You specifically said it violated your "principles"....

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

What Adel is saying is that he finds it immoral to tip a waitress. If it somehow violates his conscience then, well, it violates his conscience. While that makes no sense, it would at least be valid to say that I refuse to obey a cultural norm because it is immoral--that's at least valid.

I keep my shoes on all the time inside and I find it annoying when I'm asked to remove my shoes in a house full of cats and dirt. However, because it's not personally immoral or spiritually offensive--simply not my cultural norm--I submit to that norm because, well, I'm not a jerk...

But if you find it immoral to tip a waitress then there's nothing anyone could say to persuade you.

Riiiiight. Forget about the principle that I defended and distort my comments. So now, instead of insults, you try to distort my comments as a new strategy since you cannot defeat me by arguments.

It's over VT, just give up.

Abdel: 1
VT: 0

How am I distoring what you're saying? You specifically said it violated your "principles"....

Yes, there are chore values and one of them is to stick to my principles. 2 of the principles are:

  • Do not pay for something that is not worth its value
  • Do not bow under social pressure or fear.

It just happens that this time, it applies to a waitress.

Nothing personal, strictly principles.

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

What Adel is saying is that he finds it immoral to tip a waitress. If it somehow violates his conscience then, well, it violates his conscience. While that makes no sense, it would at least be valid to say that I refuse to obey a cultural norm because it is immoral--that's at least valid.

I keep my shoes on all the time inside and I find it annoying when I'm asked to remove my shoes in a house full of cats and dirt. However, because it's not personally immoral or spiritually offensive--simply not my cultural norm--I submit to that norm because, well, I'm not a jerk...

But if you find it immoral to tip a waitress then there's nothing anyone could say to persuade you.

Riiiiight. Forget about the principle that I defended and distort my comments. So now, instead of insults, you try to distort my comments as a new strategy since you cannot defeat me by arguments.

It's over VT, just give up.

Abdel: 1
VT: 0

How am I distoring what you're saying? You specifically said it violated your "principles"....

Yes, there are chore values and one of them is to stick to my principles. 2 of the principles are:

  • Do not pay for something that is not worth its value
  • Do not bow under social pressure or fear.

It just happens that this time, it applies to a waitress.

Nothing personal, strictly principles.

7/8/12

Double post.

7/8/12

Double post

7/8/12

And for the thousandth time I'll repeat that that it is your right, and that Americans are generous people and disagree with you. That's what I said about 75 comments ago when you asked me to prove how generous America is, which I did.

7/8/12

And for the thousandth time I'll repeat that that it is your right, and that Americans are generous people and disagree with you. That's what I said about 75 comments ago when you asked me to prove how generous America is, which I did.

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:

And for the thousandth time I'll repeat that that it is your right, and that Americans are generous people and disagree with you. That's what I said about 75 comments ago when you asked me to prove how generous America is, which I did.

Well, I don't see a counter argument to my position = I win.

And the winner, by unanimous decision and still, the undefeated WSO intellectual champion of the worrrrld,

Abdel ''I'm always right'' ***** !!!!!!!!!

7/8/12

But this brings us right back to where we started--the fact that your "principles" are mathematically incorrect...and everyone in this thread has pointed that out to you.

If your beer costs $6 plus $2 tip then that beer might cost $8 or even $9 or $10 if the restaurant were paying, say, $10/hour even at 2 pm with no expectation of tip. That's the point that dozens of us have tried to make to you--you aren't being asked to cough up more money--the accounting is all roughly the same, it just goes in different buckets. I'm not sure why you can't process this information

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:

But this brings us right back to where we started--the fact that your "principles" are mathematically incorrect...and everyone in this thread has pointed that out to you.

If your beer costs $6 plus $2 tip then that beer might cost $8 or even $9 or $10 if the restaurant were paying, say, $10/hour even at 2 pm with no expectation of tip. That's the point that dozens of us have tried to make to you--you aren't being asked to cough up more money--the accounting is all roughly the same, it just goes in different buckets. I'm not sure why you can't process this information

Econ 101: walking 5 feet to deposit a beer on a table is not worth $10/hour.

7/8/12
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

But this brings us right back to where we started--the fact that your "principles" are mathematically incorrect...and everyone in this thread has pointed that out to you.

If your beer costs $6 plus $2 tip then that beer might cost $8 or even $9 or $10 if the restaurant were paying, say, $10/hour even at 2 pm with no expectation of tip. That's the point that dozens of us have tried to make to you--you aren't being asked to cough up more money--the accounting is all roughly the same, it just goes in different buckets. I'm not sure why you can't process this information

Econ 101: walking 5 feet to deposit a beer on a table is not worth $10/hour.

Econ 101: if you don't pay a person an acceptable wage they won't work the job. With no employees to work the job the owner of the restaurant has no employees and works all the tables himself. We can keep going around in this circle.

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

But this brings us right back to where we started--the fact that your "principles" are mathematically incorrect...and everyone in this thread has pointed that out to you.

If your beer costs $6 plus $2 tip then that beer might cost $8 or even $9 or $10 if the restaurant were paying, say, $10/hour even at 2 pm with no expectation of tip. That's the point that dozens of us have tried to make to you--you aren't being asked to cough up more money--the accounting is all roughly the same, it just goes in different buckets. I'm not sure why you can't process this information

Econ 101: walking 5 feet to deposit a beer on a table is not worth $10/hour.

Econ 101: if you don't pay a person an acceptable wage they won't work the job. With no employees to work the job the owner of the restaurant has no employees and works all the tables himself. We can keep going around in this circle.

Econ 101: if you think that you have a profitable business but have no employees, innovate.

Make the clients pick up the food themselves? Plenty of other things comes to mind.

7/8/12
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

But this brings us right back to where we started--the fact that your "principles" are mathematically incorrect...and everyone in this thread has pointed that out to you.

If your beer costs $6 plus $2 tip then that beer might cost $8 or even $9 or $10 if the restaurant were paying, say, $10/hour even at 2 pm with no expectation of tip. That's the point that dozens of us have tried to make to you--you aren't being asked to cough up more money--the accounting is all roughly the same, it just goes in different buckets. I'm not sure why you can't process this information

Econ 101: walking 5 feet to deposit a beer on a table is not worth $10/hour.

Econ 101: if you don't pay a person an acceptable wage they won't work the job. With no employees to work the job the owner of the restaurant has no employees and works all the tables himself. We can keep going around in this circle.

Econ 101: if you think that you have a profitable business but have no employees, innovate.

Make the clients pick up the food themselves? Plenty of other things comes to mind.

There's no reason to innovate! Customers LIKE the system. We already have restaurants that aren't tipped based--it's called McDonald's, Wendy's, Burger King, the local deli, Five Guys, etc. People CHOOSE to go to sit down restaurants. You're operating under a false premise that Americans are unhappy with the system. We aren't. We are happy to pay lower fixed prices for food and to leave variable tips. It's our cultural norm and we're happy with it.

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:

There's no reason to innovate! Customers LIKE the system.

I said innovate if you have no employees due to the low wages.

Virginia Tech 4ever:

We already have restaurants that aren't tipped based--it's called McDonald's, Wendy's, Burger King, the local deli, Five Guys, etc. People CHOOSE to go to sit down restaurants. You're operating under a false premise that Americans are unhappy with the system. We aren't. We are happy to pay lower fixed prices for food and to leave variable tips. It's our cultural norm and we're happy with it.

Unless it is required by law, I'm not doing it.

7/8/12
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

There's no reason to innovate! Customers LIKE the system.

I said innovate if you have no employees due to the low wages.

But this would nullify the reason for the sitdown restaurant. Americans--Westerners--don't go out to dinner/lunch just for the food. That's only a small part of it. What you're saying is that a sitdown restaurant should get rid of its employees and make it not a sitdown restaurant...

That makes no sense...

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

There's no reason to innovate! Customers LIKE the system.

I said innovate if you have no employees due to the low wages.

But this would nullify the reason for the sitdown restaurant. Americans--Westerners--don't go out to dinner/lunch just for the food. That's only a small part of it. What you're saying is that a sitdown restaurant should get rid of its employees and make it not a sitdown restaurant...

That makes no sense...

Restaurents can choose the business model of their choice.

Anyhow, you're drifting away from the main point.

3/4/13

Virginia Tech 4ever:
But this brings us right back to where we started--the fact that your "principles" are mathematically incorrect...and everyone in this thread has pointed that out to you.

If your beer costs $6 plus $2 tip then that beer might cost $8 or even $9 or $10 if the restaurant were paying, say, $10/hour even at 2 pm with no expectation of tip. That's the point that dozens of us have tried to make to you--you aren't being asked to cough up more money--the accounting is all roughly the same, it just goes in different buckets. I'm not sure why you can't process this information

Incorrect. it's similar to taxing elastic goods to reduce consumption. People don't keep purchasing goods that are "unnecessary" (aka elastic) in the same quantity. In fact they lower quantity demanded more as a % than the price increases as a %. Either the restaurant loses revenue or decides to eat some of the cost and keep prices low (a little higher but not the entire amount of the average tip).

3/6/13

miscer:
Virginia Tech 4ever:
But this brings us right back to where we started--the fact that your "principles" are mathematically incorrect...and everyone in this thread has pointed that out to you.

If your beer costs $6 plus $2 tip then that beer might cost $8 or even $9 or $10 if the restaurant were paying, say, $10/hour even at 2 pm with no expectation of tip. That's the point that dozens of us have tried to make to you--you aren't being asked to cough up more money--the accounting is all roughly the same, it just goes in different buckets. I'm not sure why you can't process this information

Incorrect. it's similar to taxing elastic goods to reduce consumption. People don't keep purchasing goods that are "unnecessary" (aka elastic) in the same quantity. In fact they lower quantity demanded more as a % than the price increases as a %. Either the restaurant loses revenue or decides to eat some of the cost and keep prices low (a little higher but not the entire amount of the average tip).

How do you tell good are elastic when they are all just substitutes?

7/8/12

My counter argument is right above your last comment--that it is your right to be a miser, but that your miserliness is based off of a fallacy that you are paying more than the value because you are in a tip culture.

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:

My counter argument is right above your last comment--that it is your right to be a miser, but that your miserliness is based off of a fallacy that you are paying more than the value because you are in a tip culture.

No because remember, the restaurent does not get the tip, i.e. He's making money off that $6 beer (on top of paying the salary). So, tip or no tip, it doesn't make a difference to the restaurent because he is making money.

And why do you think they offer waiters that miserable salary? Because that is the realest value of their work.

7/8/12
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

My counter argument is right above your last comment--that it is your right to be a miser, but that your miserliness is based off of a fallacy that you are paying more than the value because you are in a tip culture.

No because remember, the restaurent does not get the tip, i.e. He's making money off that $6 beer (on top of paying the salary). So, tip or no tip, it doesn't make a difference to the restaurent because he is making money.

And why do you think they offer waiters that miserable salary? Because that is the realest value of their work.

Wow, this is like talking to a brick wall. You somehow just know better than all the restaurants in the United States....

Either the restaurant pays high fixed wages and increases prices or the restaurant pays low fixed wages, keeps prices lower and relies on the customer to pay the difference in wages via tips. It's a zero sum game--either you pay higher prices for food or you pay variable tips. It's basic math.

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:

Wow, this is like talking to a brick wall. You somehow just know better than all the restaurants in the United States....

Once again, no arguments. Only personal attacks (calling me a brick wall) and frustration.

Virginia Tech 4ever:

Either the restaurant pays high fixed wages and increases prices or the restaurant pays low fixed wages, keeps prices lower and relies on the customer to pay the difference in wages via tips. It's a zero sum game--either you pay higher prices for food or you pay variable tips. It's basic math.

Yes but here's the problem, restaurent cain't pay a high fixed wage to waiters because their work is close to useless. Therefor, you're wrong.

It is as if you bring in a company $30k/year in revenue but you're asking for a $50k/year salary. It won't happen.

7/8/12
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

Wow, this is like talking to a brick wall. You somehow just know better than all the restaurants in the United States....

Once again, no arguments. Only personal attacks (calling me a brick wall) and frustration.

Virginia Tech 4ever:

Either the restaurant pays high fixed wages and increases prices or the restaurant pays low fixed wages, keeps prices lower and relies on the customer to pay the difference in wages via tips. It's a zero sum game--either you pay higher prices for food or you pay variable tips. It's basic math.

Yes but here's the problem, restaurent cain't pay a high fixed wage to waiters because their work is close to useless. Therefor, you're wrong.

It is as if you bring in a company $30k/year in revenue but you're asking for a $50k/year salary. It won't happen.

Yes, they CAN afford to pay high fixed wages to waiters--they would simply INCREASE PRICES. So you either pay on the front end or you pay on the back end...

How is this not processing?

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:

Yes, they CAN afford to pay high fixed wages to waiters--they would simply INCREASE PRICES. So you either pay on the front end or you pay on the back end...

How is this not processing?

Yet again, another personal attack (assuming I'm not capable of processing information).

It is not processing because the restaurent owner is in the midst of a fierce competition to stay in business. Therefore, he will pay for things at their real value.

So no, they cannot afford to have high fixed wages since that work have close to zero value.

7/8/12
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

Yes, they CAN afford to pay high fixed wages to waiters--they would simply INCREASE PRICES. So you either pay on the front end or you pay on the back end...

How is this not processing?

Yet again, another personal attack (assuming I'm not capable of processing information).

It is not processing because the restaurent owner is in the midst of a fierce competition to stay in business. Therefore, he will pay for things at their real value.

So no, they cannot afford to have high fixed wages since that work have close to zero value.

LOL. So then what you're saying is that restaurants should pay low fixed wages and waiters should rely on tips from customers....

Or what you're saying is that Morton's Steakhouse should get rid of its employees and that couples on dates should pick up their steaks at the front and eat it in the car...

7/8/12
Virginia Tech 4ever:

LOL. So then what you're saying is that restaurants should pay low fixed wages and waiters should rely on tips from customers....

Restaurents should pay the real economic value of the work. Also, since restaurents are generating profits, they should serve people for free as a thank you for eating in my restaurent. It could play out in different manners but that's a technicality.

Virginia Tech 4ever:

Or what you're saying is that Morton's Steakhouse should get rid of its employees and that couples on dates should pick up their steaks at the front and eat it in the car...

What?
You're focusing on futile technicalities as a way to disprove the main point.

7/8/12
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:

LOL. So then what you're saying is that restaurants should pay low fixed wages and waiters should rely on tips from customers....

Restaurents should pay the real economic value of the work. Also, since restaurents are generating profits, they should serve people for free as a thank you for eating in my restaurent. It could play out in different manners but that's a technicality.

Virginia Tech 4ever:

Or what you're saying is that Morton's Steakhouse should get rid of its employees and that couples on dates should pick up their steaks at the front and eat it in the car...

What?
You're focusing on futile technicalities as a way to disprove the main point.

What you believe is the real economic value of their work is obviously not what the rest of the continental United States believes it is. People go to these restaurants for good service, the ambiance, to relax, to talk to friends and family. What you've proposed is a system that pays people $2/hour, which would necessarily result in there being no servers, which would mean that what people want--a nice sitdown restaurant--they could not obtain.

So what you're saying is that restaurants should pay the economic value of that labor. How much should they pay to get people back to work? $5/hour? $9/hour? But you've also boxed yourself in and said that restaurants couldn't afford to pay high fixed wages because of competition. So you've just pitched a scenario where all restaurants shut down because you personally don't like to tip...

You've presented a solution to non-existent problem.

7/8/12

Virginia Tech 4ever:

What you believe is the real economic value of their work is obviously not what the rest of the continental United States believes it is. People go to these restaurants for good service, the ambiance, to relax, to talk to friends and family. What you've proposed is a system that pays people $2/hour, which would necessarily result in there being no servers, which would mean that what people want--a nice sitdown restaurant--they could not obtain.

So what you're saying is that restaurants should pay the economic value of that labor. How much should they pay to get people back to work? $5/hour? $9/hour? But you've also boxed yourself in and said that restaurants couldn't afford to pay high fixed wages because of competition. So you've just pitched a scenario where all restaurants shut down because you personally don't like to tip...

You've presented a solution to non-existent problem.

You're assuming that only humans can waiter.

Robot waiters:

Monkey waiters

7/8/12

It's a social norm here, if you don't like it don't do it, but remember most in America will think you're a POS.

7/8/12
historiclegend:

It's a social norm here, if you don't like it don't do it, but remember most in America will think you're a POS.

What's that saying again? '' What other people think never paid for a ferrari'' ? You get the point.

And by people calling me a POS, it only means that it is another insult against my arguments = I win again. lol

7/8/12

MAYBE there's a 360 in my garage. Guess its a little older, but I think it's a Ferrari. Anyways, never heard the saying.

7/8/12

It is an insult to you, because I personally think you are ignorant.

7/8/12
historiclegend:

It is an insult to you, because I personally think you are ignorant.

As far as I'm concern, I had a position. I defended that position with arguments and no insults.

You can think of me as insensitive to local cultures, but ignorant, I don't know.

It is however your opinion and you are entitled to it.

7/8/12

You're not thinking long term. If they were only worth $2/hr or whatever other number you think is fair it would leave little incentive for people to work hard and aim to work at the more expensive restaurants where they will make decent money at. The type of place you take a date and actually appreciate the extra attention and service you get there.

Also forgetting them restalking to condiments, refilling your drinks, getting your order cooked to medium well, having the food come out hot, keeping the tabled and floors clean, restalking ice, the list goes on and on.

So if no one tipped, you don't get service. Not being able to see past them just walking 5 feet with your food is a little narrow minded.

7/8/12

@historic

I am actually thinking long term. Look at the robot waiter video I just posted. Problem solved! =)

7/8/12

Bro that may be a solution somewhere else, not in America though. It wouldnt work. Asia is and always will be much more techy.

7/8/12

@historic

Hmmm not really. With all the inflation bernanke is creating, the profit margins of restaurents will continue to shrink = they'll have to find ways to cut costs.

7/8/12

I for one would refuse, I think you would find many similar cases here.

Curious:
Where are you from?
Do you travel often?
How much time have you spent in the US?

7/8/12

@historic

Don't worry, you'll get used to the robots. Enjoy it because as you know, when skynet wakes up, we're all doomed. lol

Anyhow, it seems like I KO'd VT.

I'm out

7/8/12
Abdel:

@historic

Don't worry, you'll get used to the robots. Enjoy it because as you know, when skynet wakes up, we're all doomed. lol

Anyhow, it seems like I KO'd VT.

I'm out

Yeah, you knocked me out with a video of robot waiters...

7/8/12

damn thats a big picture one second!

7/8/12

lol @ you guys replying to Abdel's obvious troll posts for this long. Seriously dudes?

7/8/12
whatwhatwhat:

lol @ you guys replying to Abdel's obvious troll posts for this long. Seriously dudes?

Well, I was not trolling. This debate went from midnight to 5 am.

The longest one I had was against IP (from 4pm to 2 am).

I won both.

7/8/12

Abdel:
I won both.

7/8/12

Abdel,

I don't know why, but I can't help picture you as being somewhat like Sheldon from Big Bang Theory. That said, you never really answered anything here. From what I've gathered, you're not from the US and it is readily apparent that you haven't spent enough time in the US to see how the service industry really works. I would love to see you work in that industry and survive the same way bartenders (wait, do you tip your bartender when you go out for getting you a beer or pouring you a drink?) and waitstaff survive - on a measly salary and tips. That said, wait until you go out in a group in the US and you're the only one not throwing in for a tip or you're out alone dining while your in NYC and you don't leave a tip. I would love to see the people your with yell at you a la Mr. Pink or have a waiter/waitress yell at you about it.

You appear to be opposed to tipping because you think it's inefficient and a waste of money because your patronage is worth far more if I'm understanding things correctly. You also have never worked in or studied the Restaurant Industry in the US. I'm not going to reiterate a great deal of what has been said, but being in the Restaurant Industry is god awful. It's a high turnover business where the profit is eeked out either by being a high end establishment or selling alcohol at a significant mark up. Not counting the overhead, which can be already be high depending on the area, adding in the economic costs of paying the difference to bring the wait staff up to further eat away at any potential profit that may be had. So you have a catch-22 of raising prices to handle the cost of a server's wage versus the economic cost of doing so and competing against restaurants that won't. It's not just that, you have a culture where tipping has become part of the ritual of going out. It covers everything from dining at a sit down restaurant to drinking at a bar. I don't know about you, but when I go out to my regular places to drink, I tip my bartenders well and they are doing nothing more than pouring me a draft, opening a bottle or making me a drink. I'm sure, to you at least, this is no different from the waiter or waitress who has to walk 10 feet to deliver your food. So do you tip your bartenders and if you do, why do you support tipping them and not tipping a waiter or waitress or delivering your food. I'm also just going to point something out that is readily apparent- you've never worked in the US Food Service Industry before. You clearly don't get the US Food Service Industry. You have no desire to even try and understand anything we're telling you about how the US Food Service Industry works and why tips are relevant and part of the tradition and custom of going out in the US. Try spending 30 days living in the US on 2.35/Hr + Tips as your sole income before you say you are entirely right and tipping is irrelevant and you won't do it.

To wrap this all up, let me ask you one simple question - what are you going to do if you're at a place and they automatically add on Gratuity be it at a bar or restaurant? Are you going to make a huge scene over the fact that you are now paying an extra 18-20% on top of your bill since they include your tip for whatever reason and demand that they remove the entire gratuity charge?

7/8/12

Frieds,

You got lost in technicalities and missed my whole point.

Frankly, I'm too tired right now to do this all over again. Simply read my previous posts and it will be clear.

7/8/12