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12/27/11

Is this good for Wall Street or bad? From Bloomberg:

We are witnessing the decline and fall of the investment-banking profession as we have known it for the past 40 years. The evidence is everywhere. The increasing regulations on Wall Street -- as required by the Dodd-Frank law and still being written by the Federal Reserve, the Securities and Exchange Commission, the Commodities Futures Trading Commission and others agencies in the U.S. and Europe -- will require the remaining companies to increase their capital, curb their risk- taking and reduce their principal investing.

From: Wall Street Loses Grads To Teaching

Comments (208)

Best Response
12/27/11

Good. Less competition for me. Let the entitled rich do what they do best...play with the children...while the hardened workaholics from the lower classes slash and burn a new clique on Wall Street.

Shit will be better run...this is best for everyone. The old guard never wanted to be bothered with doing this job correctly anyway, let them go 'discover themselves'. When they get their heads out of their asses, mommy and daddy will find them a good job, so don't worry about them.

Until then, now's our chance.

Get busy living

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12/27/11

My favorite comment is the one suggesting liberal arts majors are today's Michelangelos.

Don't believe everything you think.

In reply to UFOinsider
12/27/11
UFOinsider:

Good. Less competition for me. Let the entitled rich do what they do best...play with the children...while the hardened workaholics from the lower classes slash and burn a new clique on Wall Street.

Shit will be better run...this is best for everyone. The old guard never wanted to be bothered with doing this job correctly anyway, let them go 'discover themselves'. When they get their heads out of their asses, mommy and daddy will find them a good job, so don't worry about them.

Until then, now's our chance.

Being at an Ivy League college and being rich don't have much to do with each other. Top Ivies are incredibly generous with their financial aid to their students who don't come from money. Many times, it is actually cheaper to attend Harvard than your state flagship. I can attest to the fact that at my Ivy, a significant portion of the class comes from very humble or average family background.

12/27/11

I would rather do bitch work than get spat on by minorities for teaching them math.

12/27/11

This article seems to suggest that the reason why increasingly growing number of Ivy grads aren't ending up in I-banking analyst gigs is due to self-selection, due to Occupy Wall Street sentiment or whatever. However, I highly doubt that is the case. It is likely due to the simple fact that analyst jobs are much more scarce in this economy compared to before.

And, Ivy grads turning down Goldman IBD analyst job offer for Teach For America? Are you fucking kidding me?? No person in a sane mind would do that. Why the fuck would anyone turn down a 120k per year job for a 30k per year job unless he is retarded? If I happened to know someone who makes such a choice, I would force that individual to get his head examined for sanity. Seriously.

It's like when someone gives you the choice to choose from a Ferrari or Honda Civic, you would be fucking retarded to take Honda Civic just because you are afraid that others will think you are a rich spoiled brat for driving a Ferrari. Teach For America is an absolute garbage gig compared to Goldman IBD. Those two don't belong in the same sentence.

In reply to Ches
12/27/11
Ches:

get spat on by minorities for teaching them math.

And all that trouble and shame for that glorious 30k per year salary

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
12/27/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

Being at an Ivy League college and being rich don't have much to do with each other.

Aside from the minority of smart kids from humble beginnings, wealth has EVERYTHING to do with this. Wait until you start working, it's even more noticeable. I'm from a working class town, and the guy sitting next to me spends his weekends in the Hamptons...and has the most sickeningly overentitled attitude I've ever seen. It's VERY ingrained here, and if these kids want to take themselves out of the equation...I'm all for it. Go, be free, educate and be merry. Meanwhile, I and a legion of other guys that never stood a chance get a crack at this.

FYI, I'm not against ivies or rich people....but I am neither and so this is an opportunity for me and people like me. You can argue this point if you like, but that's how it is.

Get busy living

In reply to UFOinsider
12/27/11
UFOinsider:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

Being at an Ivy League college and being rich don't have much to do with each other.

Aside from the minority of smart kids from humble beginnings, wealth has EVERYTHING to do with this. Wait until you start working, it's even more noticeable. I'm from a working class town, and the guy sitting next to me spends his weekends in the Hamptons...and has the most sickeningly overentitled attitude I've ever seen. It's VERY ingrained here, and if these kids want to take themselves out of the equation...I'm all for it. Go, be free, educate and be merry. Meanwhile, I and a legion of other guys that never stood a chance get a crack at this.

FYI, I'm not against ivies or rich people....but I am neither and so this is an opportunity for me and people like me. You can argue this point if you like, but that's how it is.

Wait what? What does your example have to do with the student body at Ivy League colleges?

Let's face it - there are douches anywhere you go, whatever college you go, and there are those 'spoiled rich' brats pretty much at any major college of big size. For example, George Bush's daughter went to U Texas.

Maybe I could agree with your point that there is a bit of higher concentration of wealthy students at Ivy colleges compared to other colleges, but it is absurd to suggest that Ivy League and 'wealthy snobbery' are interchangeable objects.

12/27/11

I currently attend an Ivy. People aren't turning down WS jobs; they just aren't getting them anymore. A 3.2 English Lit major at Columbia, for instance, could have easily landed an IBD job with a bit of effort back in 2006, but these days it's next to impossible.

In reply to seedy underbelly
12/27/11
seedy underbelly:

I currently attend an Ivy. People aren't turning down WS jobs; they just aren't getting them anymore. A 3.2 English Lit major at Columbia, for instance, could have easily landed an IBD job with a bit of effort back in 2006, but these days it's next to impossible.

Dude, I fucking wish I was born just 5 years earlier. Fuck this shit, and fuck this economy...

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
12/27/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

And, Ivy grads turning down Goldman IBD analyst job offer for Teach For America? Are you fucking kidding me?? No person in a sane mind would do that. Why the fuck would anyone turn down a 120k per year job for a 30k per year job unless he is retarded?

If their parents are worth lots of money, income right after college is irrelevant.

My man, if you are in an ivy like you say you are, wake up and look around at the people driving Mercedes and Porches to school at the age of 17/18/19. You still seem to have no concept of the money and power floating around you. If I came from wealth, there's no way you could make me work 100 hours / week unless I just loved it...but coming from almost nothing, 100 hour weeks is a small price to pay for access to wealth + power.

Get busy living

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
12/27/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
seedy underbelly:

I currently attend an Ivy. People aren't turning down WS jobs; they just aren't getting them anymore. A 3.2 English Lit major at Columbia, for instance, could have easily landed an IBD job with a bit of effort back in 2006, but these days it's next to impossible.

Dude, I fucking wish I was born just 5 years earlier. Fuck this shit, and fuck this economy...

It will pick up again, don't worry, just do your part and the rest will take care of itself. The fact that some of your classmates are idiots and not taking these jobs is good news for you and everyone here. In fact, I'm not going to state this point again, as I still have family members graduating.

Get busy living

12/27/11

will cohan really annoys me and this article is typical

he throws out some good statistics however seeks to explain them by throwing out a totally unsupported populist sucker-punch (that kids are going to TFA over GS). where is the data to support this?

In fact, the first two thirds of his article did a pretty good job explaining why fewer ivy grads (and why probably fewer grads in total) are going into WS - fewer JOBS! Cohan was too dumb to connect the dots within his own article. He even reverses cause and effect - saying fewer graduates are choosing WS because they see that it is sinking rather than the more logical explanation that WS is hiring fewer grads because its going through tough times.

Also, WS isnt as "cool" as it once was, probably lots of top grads are now going to work at tech firms. (Although is working at Facebook really more productive for society than working at MS?)

i thought after this guys book/rant on GS bombed that he would finally get his soapbox taken away

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
12/27/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

And, Ivy grads turning down Goldman IBD analyst job offer for Teach For America? Are you fucking kidding me?? No person in a sane mind would do that. Why the fuck would anyone turn down a 120k per year job for a 30k per year job unless he is retarded? If I happened to know someone who makes such a choice, I would force that individual to get his head examined for sanity. Seriously.

My buddy turned down Greenhill, Evercore, HW and Deloitte S&O for TFA and he is STILL the smartest guy I know. He has 4 interviews with huge name PE and IB shops in the coming weeks for an internship between his first and second year for TFA. So he gets the TFA Bschool bump and the 'high finance' experience.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
12/27/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

This article seems to suggest that the reason why increasingly growing number of Ivy grads aren't ending up in I-banking analyst gigs is due to self-selection, due to Occupy Wall Street sentiment or whatever. However, I highly doubt that is the case. It is likely due to the simple fact that analyst jobs are much more scarce in this economy compared to before.

Fully agree. Several things have happened over the past few years:
1) The amount of hiring in finance has dropped substantially due to the economy
2) Banks have widened their nets to recruit at a wider range of schools. As the poster mentioned above, a 3.2 non-quant major may have sufficed in the past, but when you add 4.0 non-target quant students into the mix, it no longer cuts it.
3) The amount of competition for finance jobs has remained strong despite the economy, since they still offer one of the best paying options out of school.
4) Job security in this business is gone.
Summary: it's not by choice.

Also, in response to the hating on TFA: while most of the people on this board would love nothing more than to do banking at GS, it's not for everyone. That is a really narrow minded way of thinking.

12/27/11

I don't buy this altruistic crap. I will believe it when these kids choose TFA over GS in a good economy.

These kids fall under the "vagabond" classification under Alex Chu's blue chips, average Joes and vagabonds system. And guess what? Blue chips and vagabonds have an easier time getting into H/S/W. I see it as 2 years of TFA + H/S/W = enter a bank at a higher level. By the time they graduate from MBA it will be 4 years and they hope the economy will be better.

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
12/27/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

And, Ivy grads turning down Goldman IBD analyst job offer for Teach For America? Are you fucking kidding me?? No person in a sane mind would do that. Why the fuck would anyone turn down a 120k per year job for a 30k per year job unless he is retarded? If I happened to know someone who makes such a choice, I would force that individual to get his head examined for sanity. Seriously.

120k means significantly more hours and stress. I'd rather take a 30k job and enjoy my life.

12/27/11

Believe it or not, not every person working TFA is doing it as a resume builder to work in finance...

12/27/11
12/27/11

If all the people who wanted to "change" the world by doing TFA took real jobs and donated a large chuck of their first years salary to inner city kids, more benefit would be had. I doubt that transient, non professional teachers, really make a difference in one year.

Go work for Goldman and send 2 kids to private schools or pay for after school tutors for 10 of them or something. How about setting up a scholarship for kids to go to state schools or pay for community college for their parents.

12/27/11

To everyone saying that TFA doesn't do anything, you're both wrong and right.

If anyone is actually curious, read the book "Relentless Pursuit: A Year in the Trenches with Teach For America". There is some very very interesting insight, as well as anecdotes, as to the actual value that these kids provide.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

In reply to IRSPB
12/27/11
IRSPB:

I don't buy this altruistic crap. I will believe it when these kids choose TFA over GS in a good economy.

These kids fall under the "vagabond" classification under Alex Chu's blue chips, average Joes and vagabonds system. And guess what? Blue chips and vagabonds have an easier time getting into H/S/W. I see it as 2 years of TFA + H/S/W = enter a bank at a higher level. By the time they graduate from MBA it will be 4 years and they hope the economy will be better.

TFA has excellent placement into HSW MBA. I know a lot of ivy kids who can't get top finance or consulting jobs opt for tfa, so they can build their resumes and leverage it into HSW.

12/27/11

Some banks have refocused recruiting on students studying Finance at the undergrad level (meaning students from top state schools/private schools with good business programs, most Ivy's don't have undergrad business programs). So that explains one aspect of it.

12/27/11

Stupid article. They're not passing up on IB for TFA out of the kindness of their hearts. They're doing it because of a lack of jobs. You do TFA when you're not sure what you want to do in life and/or there's few options for you.

In reply to thurnis haley
12/27/11
Thurnis Haley:

Stupid article. They're not passing up on IB for TFA out of the kindness of their hearts. They're doing it because of a lack of jobs. You do TFA when you're not sure what you want to do in life and/or there's few options for you.

Agree with the 'not sure what to do in life' disagree with 'have no other options.'

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

In reply to happypantsmcgee
12/27/11
happypantsmcgee:
Thurnis Haley:

Stupid article. They're not passing up on IB for TFA out of the kindness of their hearts. They're doing it because of a lack of jobs. You do TFA when you're not sure what you want to do in life and/or there's few options for you.

Agree with the 'not sure what to do in life' disagree with 'have no other options.'

I'm not talking about every student at these places. I'm talking about the ones that figured they didn't need a useful major because surely they'll get a job at a BB because they go to Yale and goddamnit they're entitled to one! The article ignores the fact that there's still plenty exceptional people at HYP going into medicine, law, public service, academia, etc. It's the people that didn't prepare for anything else by the time they graduated that have fewer options.

In reply to thurnis haley
12/27/11
Thurnis Haley:
happypantsmcgee:
Thurnis Haley:

Stupid article. They're not passing up on IB for TFA out of the kindness of their hearts. They're doing it because of a lack of jobs. You do TFA when you're not sure what you want to do in life and/or there's few options for you.

Agree with the 'not sure what to do in life' disagree with 'have no other options.'

I'm not talking about every student at these places. I'm talking about the ones that figured they didn't need a useful major because surely they'll get a job at a BB because they go to Yale and goddamnit they're entitled to one! The article ignores the fact that there's still plenty exceptional people at HYP going into medicine, law, public service, academia, etc. It's the people that didn't prepare for anything else by the time they graduated that have fewer options.

Fewer? Sure. No other options? No.

And how does one actually prepare to go to law school other than taking the LSAT? A Psych Major with a 3.9 has as good a chance as anyone when it comes to getting into a good law school provided that work on their LSAT for a couple months.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

In reply to happypantsmcgee
12/27/11
happypantsmcgee:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

And, Ivy grads turning down Goldman IBD analyst job offer for Teach For America? Are you fucking kidding me?? No person in a sane mind would do that. Why the fuck would anyone turn down a 120k per year job for a 30k per year job unless he is retarded? If I happened to know someone who makes such a choice, I would force that individual to get his head examined for sanity. Seriously.

My buddy turned down Greenhill, Evercore, HW and Deloitte S&O for TFA and he is STILL the smartest guy I know. He has 4 interviews with huge name PE and IB shops in the coming weeks for an internship between his first and second year for TFA. So he gets the TFA Bschool bump and the 'high finance' experience.

For the record, you can be both very smart and insane. There are some geniuses who are down-right insane and lack common sense or some people actually suffer from schizophrenia. John Nash may be a genius in the academic sense, but he undoubtedly is an insane man.

And, I am afraid your buddy also suffers from insanity. True, he must be pretty smart to have gotten those offers. But choosing TFA over those fine options implies his mental sickness or maybe mild symptoms of schizophrenia.

In reply to DRX
12/27/11
DRX:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

This article seems to suggest that the reason why increasingly growing number of Ivy grads aren't ending up in I-banking analyst gigs is due to self-selection, due to Occupy Wall Street sentiment or whatever. However, I highly doubt that is the case. It is likely due to the simple fact that analyst jobs are much more scarce in this economy compared to before.

Fully agree. Several things have happened over the past few years:
1) The amount of hiring in finance has dropped substantially due to the economy
2) Banks have widened their nets to recruit at a wider range of schools. As the poster mentioned above, a 3.2 non-quant major may have sufficed in the past, but when you add 4.0 non-target quant students into the mix, it no longer cuts it.
3) The amount of competition for finance jobs has remained strong despite the economy, since they still offer one of the best paying options out of school.
4) Job security in this business is gone.
Summary: it's not by choice.

Also, in response to the hating on TFA: while most of the people on this board would love nothing more than to do banking at GS, it's not for everyone. That is a really narrow minded way of thinking.

I am wondering, is your point #2 true though? So, just few years ago, banks exclusively recruited only at targets and ignored semi or non-targets completely?

This would really explain why many Ivy grads aren't ending up in IBD or S&T in as much of quantity as before. Reduced supply of these jobs, and increased competition for those jobs...

Also, wouldn't this imply that the career-benefits of attending a target school isn't very strong at all? (or at least not as strong as some people hyped it up to be)

In reply to UFOinsider
12/27/11
UFOinsider:

Good. Less competition for me. Let the entitled rich do what they do best...play with the children...while the hardened workaholics from the lower classes slash and burn a new clique on Wall Street.

Shit will be better run...this is best for everyone. The old guard never wanted to be bothered with doing this job correctly anyway, let them go 'discover themselves'. When they get their heads out of their asses, mommy and daddy will find them a good job, so don't worry about them.

Until then, now's our chance.

Please shut the fuck up.

In reply to JWR34
12/27/11
JWR34:

Some banks have refocused recruiting on students studying Finance at the undergrad level (meaning students from top state schools/private schools with good business programs, most Ivy's don't have undergrad business programs). So that explains one aspect of it.

Any truth to this statement? Having a hard time believing that banks would target UVA or UMIch business students more heavily (or as heavily) than Harvard or Princeton kids.

The WSO Advantage - Investment Banking

Financial Modeling Training

IB Templates, M&A, LBO, Valuation +

IB Interview Prep Pack

30,000+ sold & REAL questions.

Resume Help from Actual IB Pros

Land More IB Interviews.

Find Your Perfect IB Mentor

Realistic IB Mock Interviews.

12/27/11

There are very few "altruistic" people at these schools. Look at the top performers, like rhodes and marshall scholars, for instance. They do an insane amount of community service while in college, like setting up non-profits or volunteering in sub-sahara Africa. But then you look at where they end up going, and it's usually law school or finance.

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
12/27/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
happypantsmcgee:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

And, Ivy grads turning down Goldman IBD analyst job offer for Teach For America? Are you fucking kidding me?? No person in a sane mind would do that. Why the fuck would anyone turn down a 120k per year job for a 30k per year job unless he is retarded? If I happened to know someone who makes such a choice, I would force that individual to get his head examined for sanity. Seriously.

My buddy turned down Greenhill, Evercore, HW and Deloitte S&O for TFA and he is STILL the smartest guy I know. He has 4 interviews with huge name PE and IB shops in the coming weeks for an internship between his first and second year for TFA. So he gets the TFA Bschool bump and the 'high finance' experience.

For the record, you can be both very smart and insane. There are some geniuses who are down-right insane and lack common sense or some people actually suffer from schizophrenia. John Nash may be a genius in the academic sense, but he undoubtedly is an insane man.

And, I am afraid your buddy also suffers from insanity. True, he must be pretty smart to have gotten those offers. But choosing TFA over those fine options implies his mental sickness or maybe mild symptoms of schizophrenia.

Yea, he's nuts. Got the TFA resume bump. WIll make ~40k as an intern this summer and still end up at a better firm than 99.5% of anyone who works in finance. Definitely a schizo.

You're a fucking idiot.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

In reply to Devils Advocate
12/27/11
Devils Advocate:
UFOinsider:

Good. Less competition for me. Let the entitled rich do what they do best...play with the children...while the hardened workaholics from the lower classes slash and burn a new clique on Wall Street.

Shit will be better run...this is best for everyone. The old guard never wanted to be bothered with doing this job correctly anyway, let them go 'discover themselves'. When they get their heads out of their asses, mommy and daddy will find them a good job, so don't worry about them.

Until then, now's our chance.

Please shut the fuck up.

http://www.hetemeel.com/haha/44457.Why+do+you%20SU...

Do you have any idea what it does to a person, their entire family, to be exposed to legacy changing wealth and to work in NYC's financial district? It's mindblowing, in the best possible way. For the better part of a decade I've poured drinks for rich people, and now I'm in the same companies as them...it's quite a trip. I harbor no ill will towards them, hell their tips allowed me to pay for college, and if their kids want to go be teachers, great, that just means the few jobs left here open up to me and the people I grew up with.

Get busy living

In reply to happypantsmcgee
12/27/11
happypantsmcgee:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
happypantsmcgee:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

And, Ivy grads turning down Goldman IBD analyst job offer for Teach For America? Are you fucking kidding me?? No person in a sane mind would do that. Why the fuck would anyone turn down a 120k per year job for a 30k per year job unless he is retarded? If I happened to know someone who makes such a choice, I would force that individual to get his head examined for sanity. Seriously.

My buddy turned down Greenhill, Evercore, HW and Deloitte S&O for TFA and he is STILL the smartest guy I know. He has 4 interviews with huge name PE and IB shops in the coming weeks for an internship between his first and second year for TFA. So he gets the TFA Bschool bump and the 'high finance' experience.

For the record, you can be both very smart and insane. There are some geniuses who are down-right insane and lack common sense or some people actually suffer from schizophrenia. John Nash may be a genius in the academic sense, but he undoubtedly is an insane man.

And, I am afraid your buddy also suffers from insanity. True, he must be pretty smart to have gotten those offers. But choosing TFA over those fine options implies his mental sickness or maybe mild symptoms of schizophrenia.

Yea, he's nuts. Got the TFA resume bump. WIll make ~40k as an intern this summer and still end up at a better firm than 99.5% of anyone who works in finance. Definitely a schizo.

You're a fucking idiot.

No. Fuck you. And, fuck TFA. And LOL at your statement that TFA gives you better exit options than BB IBD. What a fucking clown.

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
12/27/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
happypantsmcgee:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
happypantsmcgee:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

And, Ivy grads turning down Goldman IBD analyst job offer for Teach For America? Are you fucking kidding me?? No person in a sane mind would do that. Why the fuck would anyone turn down a 120k per year job for a 30k per year job unless he is retarded? If I happened to know someone who makes such a choice, I would force that individual to get his head examined for sanity. Seriously.

My buddy turned down Greenhill, Evercore, HW and Deloitte S&O for TFA and he is STILL the smartest guy I know. He has 4 interviews with huge name PE and IB shops in the coming weeks for an internship between his first and second year for TFA. So he gets the TFA Bschool bump and the 'high finance' experience.

For the record, you can be both very smart and insane. There are some geniuses who are down-right insane and lack common sense or some people actually suffer from schizophrenia. John Nash may be a genius in the academic sense, but he undoubtedly is an insane man.

And, I am afraid your buddy also suffers from insanity. True, he must be pretty smart to have gotten those offers. But choosing TFA over those fine options implies his mental sickness or maybe mild symptoms of schizophrenia.

Yea, he's nuts. Got the TFA resume bump. WIll make ~40k as an intern this summer and still end up at a better firm than 99.5% of anyone who works in finance. Definitely a schizo.

You're a fucking idiot.

No. Fuck you. And, fuck TFA. And LOL at your statement that TFA gives you better exit options than BB IBD. What a fucking clown.

Actually, during the upcoming grad recruiting cycle, TFA will give VERY good options. For PE/HF, yes, IBD is going to give better options. But for almost everything else, I would not understimate the influence that TFA has on a resume....plus, almost the entire network is from ivies, so right there they have tapped a large body of sympathetic people.

Enrique, when you finish school and get out into the real world, you'll see things a bit differently. Congrats on the good school, but realize that you're talking to people that have been out of school for years and have a little bit better idea of how things really work.

This topic has been covered ad nausea, let's please move along...

Get busy living

12/27/11

I think most of you are forgetting that TFA doesn't preclude getting internships, expanding your network, and meeting so people that are very well placed to help you after the program is over.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

12/27/11

Having a hard time believing that banks would target UVA or UMIch business students more heavily (or as heavily) than Harvard or Princeton kids.

Perhaps not compared to H/P, but compared to low-tier ivies, sure.

12/27/11
William Cohan:

Something like 90 percent of Bear Stearns's profits . . .

Cmon Billy, I know you're better then that.

My name is Nicky, but you can call me Dre.

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
12/27/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
JWR34:

Some banks have refocused recruiting on students studying Finance at the undergrad level (meaning students from top state schools/private schools with good business programs, most Ivy's don't have undergrad business programs). So that explains one aspect of it.

Any truth to this statement? Having a hard time believing that banks would target UVA or UMIch business students more heavily (or as heavily) than Harvard or Princeton kids.

Not saying they are targeted more heavily, the Ivy League is obviously still the main base of recruiting for Wall Street, and at the end of the day the people with high GPA's from those schools can always get IB jobs, but it seems banks are now placing much more focus on business majors from top public schools and non-Ivy private schools with business programs, and the ones that fall by the wayside are the kids at Ivy's with 3.5ish GPA's and no experience relevant to finance.

As a decent sample I attended a program for Sophomores at a BB last year. Only about a third of the students there were from Ivy League schools. I also know for a fact that this same bank did superdays for 'non-core' students this year prior to their recruiting cycles at Ivy League schools to go ahead and lock in top people from elsewhere early on.

12/27/11

^^ Aaah so US recruiting is becoming somewhat like Canadian recruiting in that you pretty much need a business undergrad degree to get a job?

In reply to IRSPB
12/27/11
IRSPB:

^^ Aaah so US recruiting is becoming somewhat like Canadian recruiting in that you pretty much need a business undergrad degree to get a job?

Not if you go to an Ivy League school. But speaking for the school I go to (regional semi-target for banking), options for the people that don't study Business/Engineering seem to range from low-end entry level jobs (ie the jobs people just think of as jobs, not career-launchers) or going to grad school. I know people who have graduated with solid GPA's in liberal arts majors and wound up looking for a job for months and then finally just settled for selling cars. People in less quantitative business majors (like marketing/management) are having trouble too. And it isn't that the school is poor. Accounting majors walk into Big 4 audit jobs and Finance majors don't have much trouble getting something in Banking/Consulting/Corp. Finance.

In reply to JWR34
12/27/11
JWR34:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
JWR34:

Some banks have refocused recruiting on students studying Finance at the undergrad level (meaning students from top state schools/private schools with good business programs, most Ivy's don't have undergrad business programs). So that explains one aspect of it.

Any truth to this statement? Having a hard time believing that banks would target UVA or UMIch business students more heavily (or as heavily) than Harvard or Princeton kids.

Not saying they are targeted more heavily, the Ivy League is obviously still the main base of recruiting for Wall Street, and at the end of the day the people with high GPA's from those schools can always get IB jobs, but it seems banks are now placing much more focus on business majors from top public schools and non-Ivy private schools with business programs, and the ones that fall by the wayside are the kids at Ivy's with 3.5ish GPA's and no experience relevant to finance.

As a decent sample I attended a program for Sophomores at a BB last year. Only about a third of the students there were from Ivy League schools. I also know for a fact that this same bank did superdays for 'non-core' students this year prior to their recruiting cycles at Ivy League schools to go ahead and lock in top people from elsewhere early on.

Very sharp analysis on your part. I gave you a silver banana for your post. I totally agree with your analysis, which confirms my speculation.

And, holy shit, I happened to be that guy you are describing here. I am at an Ivy (lower ivy) with 3.5 GPA in Economics without high-finance work experience. And, I was shit out of luck this year for FT IBD recruiting. (And many others at my school in similar position as me also didn't get shit from IBD or S&T)

In reply to JWR34
12/27/11
JWR34:
IRSPB:

^^ Aaah so US recruiting is becoming somewhat like Canadian recruiting in that you pretty much need a business undergrad degree to get a job?

Not if you go to an Ivy League school. But speaking for the school I go to (regional semi-target for banking), options for the people that don't study Business/Engineering seem to range from low-end entry level jobs (ie the jobs people just think of as jobs, not career-launchers) or going to grad school. I know people who have graduated with solid GPA's in liberal arts majors and wound up looking for a job for months and then finally just settled for selling cars. People in less quantitative business majors (like marketing/management) are having trouble too. And it isn't that the school is poor. Accounting majors walk into Big 4 audit jobs and Finance majors don't have much trouble getting something in Banking/Consulting/Corp. Finance.

Majoring in accounting may be the safest and arguably the easiest path towards a middle class, white-collar career track...

12/27/11

1. GS partnered with TFA a few years ago because they were losing more talent to TFA then another other BB
2. Most other banks already partner with TFA for same reasons
3. Fewer people are heading to wall street casue less places to go on the street. ML, Bear and Lehman are 200-400 size analyst class each that are no longer in the market. 600-1200 jobs are no longer on the market.
4. TFA is not a resume pad for most students. I would say most TFA people are pretty impressive even before TFA. I know a few who did the whole banking/trading route during internships and wanted to try something different.
5. The few finances jobs that are still hiring are even more tough then they were 5 years ago to get. The days of a school teacher to MBA to trade desk are over.

12/28/11

My response goes to this comment, http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/less-ivy-lea..., which for some reason WSO isn't letting me quote.

You are making a huge generalization here that all that matters to people is money? It is becoming more and more clear as the years go on that Wall Street isn't the glamorous place that many people are brought up to believe, that even at Goldman Sachs Investment Banking you are not safe and neither are you on the top of the world, and that maybe they generally don't like the assoholic culture/system of many BBs.

It maybe that all you look for your career is how big your paycheck is, but some would rather be happy to settle for the basics and enjoy humanitarian services than slaving their life away for 2-3 years for a majestic promise land just to come to the realization that this promise land isn't exactly what it is hyped up to be.

Not saying I agree that more people are going for TFA over GS but, there is a life outside Goldman Sachs IBD

12/28/11

http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/less-ivy-lea...

Dude what the fuck!? You are delusional, a product of the straight path finance system and have the narrowest thinking I have ever witnessed. Good luck being successful with this attitude

12/28/11

PS: Pretty sure it's "fewer" not "less". ;)

12/28/11

Success is subjective.

I, however, would never pick TFA over an IBD offer from any firm, in any city; but will respect the few that do. I will have to agree that the rise of people going to TFA over IBD has more to do with the current economy rather than a yearning for humanitarian causes. In regards to upticks and recessive economic climates, the people who truly value TFA will go to TFA, and if there is a sudden rise, it's probably due to the fact that student's are looking for exit opps into M7 programs -- TFA being one of them; in which case it is a viable option as opposed to doing nothing.

In reply to seedy underbelly
12/28/11
seedy underbelly:

PS: Pretty sure it's "fewer" not "less". ;)

thanks bud.. good luck in college

In reply to Bruce.Wayne
12/28/11
Bruce.Wayne:

Success is subjective.

I, however, would never pick TFA over an IBD offer from any firm, in any city; but will respect the few that do. I will have to agree that the rise of people going to TFA over IBD has more to do with the current economy rather than a yearning for humanitarian causes. In regards to upticks and recessive economic climates, the people who truly value TFA will go to TFA, and if there is a sudden rise, it's probably due to the fact that student's are looking for exit opps into M7 programs -- TFA being one of them; in which case it is a viable option as opposed to doing nothing.

very few people leave TFA for a MBA... at its core it does a great job.. it gets people into education who want to work in education.... you will have more leave to law school or education focused grad programs then MBA...

MBA is the last grad school most end up at

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
12/28/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

And, Ivy grads turning down Goldman IBD analyst job offer for Teach For America? Are you fucking kidding me?? No person in a sane mind would do that. Why the fuck would anyone turn down a 120k per year job for a 30k per year job unless he is retarded? If I happened to know someone who makes such a choice, I would force that individual to get his head examined for sanity. Seriously.

I hope you're sarcastic, because if you're not, you're a fucking idiot! Do you really think everyone is 100% driven by money?? Do you really think everyone makes every life choice based on an expected value calcuations?! Some people don't give a fuck about how much money they make; for some it's a lot more important to live a life devoted to helping others that were less fortunate. You're so fucking stupid

And to the guy who keeps saying that only wealthy kids attend Ivies.. Get a fucking life! they're all need-blind and give you as much financial aid as you need. Given how flawed your arguments are, I assume your SAT barred you from even considering an Ivy, but please don't blame this on your family's economic background

In reply to Bruce.Wayne
12/28/11
Bruce.Wayne:

Success is subjective.

I, however, would never pick TFA over an IBD offer from any firm, in any city; but will respect the few that do. I will have to agree that the rise of people going to TFA over IBD has more to do with the current economy rather than a yearning for humanitarian causes. In regards to upticks and recessive economic climates, the people who truly value TFA will go to TFA, and if there is a sudden rise, it's probably due to the fact that student's are looking for exit opps into M7 programs -- TFA being one of them; in which case it is a viable option as opposed to doing nothing.

This. Growing number of Ivy grads ending up at TFA just means that more are using it as a fallback option after striking out at IBD and consulting, and these Ivy grads don't know at the moment what the hell to do with their lives. To be honest, it really is a random job and TFA differs from IBD or even consulting drastically in training, skill sets built, career track, and whatnot.

One thing that puzzles me is why don't these Ivy grads try to land some other corporate jobs in private sector, namely in real estate, tier three boutique consulting, IT consulting, or F1000 analyst jobs, rather than doing non-profit work? There are jobs in private sector outside IBD.

In reply to Lubyanka
12/28/11
Lubyanka:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

And, Ivy grads turning down Goldman IBD analyst job offer for Teach For America? Are you fucking kidding me?? No person in a sane mind would do that. Why the fuck would anyone turn down a 120k per year job for a 30k per year job unless he is retarded? If I happened to know someone who makes such a choice, I would force that individual to get his head examined for sanity. Seriously.

I hope you're sarcastic, because if you're not, you're a fucking idiot! Do you really think everyone is 100% driven by money?? Do you really think everyone makes every life choice based on an expected value calcuations?! Some people don't give a fuck about how much money they make; for some it's a lot more important to live a life devoted to helping others that were less fortunate. You're so fucking stupid

Dude, seriously?

To address your points:

1) For those who are not motivated by money or not interested in a career in fiance altogether, why the fuck would these people apply for those IBD jobs in the first place? This article specifically states that Ivy grads are TURNING DOWN offers from BB IBD in favor of TFA. Realistically, a lot of times for those who aren't interested in finance career or money don't bother to apply to those IBD jobs, go through hectic/ stressful interviewing process, network, and do all that bitch internship work just to later ending up rejecting that full-time IBD offer in favor of that TFA gig. In summary, these two different gigs attract totally different applicant pool and different set of individuals.

2) Much higher percentage of people in real life are motivated by money rather than being non-motivated by money. You would be nuts to deny this. In this materialistic capitalist society, wealth, status, and power are desirable traits. Chances are, out of people walking on a random street, more would pick IBD over TFA job if given a chance because of the fact that far more people in this world are motivated by money compared to those who aren't.

3) IBD analyst job isn't just about the paycheck. It is also about exit options, contacts you build, resume building, and positioning yourself for a solid career in business/ finance.

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
12/28/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Bruce.Wayne:

Success is subjective.

I, however, would never pick TFA over an IBD offer from any firm, in any city; but will respect the few that do. I will have to agree that the rise of people going to TFA over IBD has more to do with the current economy rather than a yearning for humanitarian causes. In regards to upticks and recessive economic climates, the people who truly value TFA will go to TFA, and if there is a sudden rise, it's probably due to the fact that student's are looking for exit opps into M7 programs -- TFA being one of them; in which case it is a viable option as opposed to doing nothing.

This. Growing number of Ivy grads ending up at TFA just means that more are using it as a fallback option after striking out at IBD and consulting, and these Ivy grads don't know at the moment what the hell to do with their lives. To be honest, it really is a random job and TFA differs from IBD or even consulting drastically in training, skill sets built, career track, and whatnot.

One thing that puzzles me is why don't these Ivy grads try to land some other corporate jobs in private sector, namely in real estate, tier three boutique consulting, IT consulting, or F1000 analyst jobs, rather than doing non-profit work? There are jobs in private sector outside IBD.

have you been through the TFA interview process? its not as easy as you think as a fall back...

for laughs lets think about this..

1.TFA draws from the top schools in the nation
2. for a two year stint
3. working long hours and in a stressful setting
4. many enter with hopes of solid exit ops
5. interviews are tough

sounds a lot like banking..

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
12/28/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Lubyanka:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

And, Ivy grads turning down Goldman IBD analyst job offer for Teach For America? Are you fucking kidding me?? No person in a sane mind would do that. Why the fuck would anyone turn down a 120k per year job for a 30k per year job unless he is retarded? If I happened to know someone who makes such a choice, I would force that individual to get his head examined for sanity. Seriously.

I hope you're sarcastic, because if you're not, you're a fucking idiot! Do you really think everyone is 100% driven by money?? Do you really think everyone makes every life choice based on an expected value calcuations?! Some people don't give a fuck about how much money they make; for some it's a lot more important to live a life devoted to helping others that were less fortunate. You're so fucking stupid

Dude, seriously?

To address your points:

1) For those who are not motivated by money or not interested in a career in fiance altogether, why the fuck would these people apply for those IBD jobs in the first place? This article specifically states that Ivy grads are TURNING DOWN offers from BB IBD in favor of TFA. Realistically, a lot of times for those who aren't interested in finance career or money don't bother to apply to those IBD jobs, go through hectic/ stressful interviewing process, network, and do all that bitch internship work just to later ending up rejecting that full-time IBD offer in favor of that TFA gig. In summary, these two different gigs attract totally different applicant pool and different set of individuals.

2) Much higher percentage of people in real life are motivated by money rather than being non-motivated by money. You would be nuts to deny this. In this materialistic capitalist society, wealth, status, and power are desirable traits. Chances are, out of people walking on a random street, more would pick IBD over TFA job if given a chance because of the fact that far more people in this world are motivated by money compared to those who aren't.

3) IBD analyst job isn't just about the paycheck. It is also about exit options, contacts you build, resume building, and positioning yourself for a solid career in business/ finance.

pick 10 random people on any street outside of nyc and they wont even know what IDB stands for.

In reply to monty09
12/28/11
monty09:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Bruce.Wayne:

Success is subjective.

I, however, would never pick TFA over an IBD offer from any firm, in any city; but will respect the few that do. I will have to agree that the rise of people going to TFA over IBD has more to do with the current economy rather than a yearning for humanitarian causes. In regards to upticks and recessive economic climates, the people who truly value TFA will go to TFA, and if there is a sudden rise, it's probably due to the fact that student's are looking for exit opps into M7 programs -- TFA being one of them; in which case it is a viable option as opposed to doing nothing.

This. Growing number of Ivy grads ending up at TFA just means that more are using it as a fallback option after striking out at IBD and consulting, and these Ivy grads don't know at the moment what the hell to do with their lives. To be honest, it really is a random job and TFA differs from IBD or even consulting drastically in training, skill sets built, career track, and whatnot.

One thing that puzzles me is why don't these Ivy grads try to land some other corporate jobs in private sector, namely in real estate, tier three boutique consulting, IT consulting, or F1000 analyst jobs, rather than doing non-profit work? There are jobs in private sector outside IBD.

have you been through the TFA interview process? its not as easy as you think as a fall back...

for laughs lets think about this..

1.TFA draws from the top schools in the nation
2. for a two year stint
3. working long hours and in a stressful setting
4. many enter with hopes of solid exit ops
5. interviews are tough

sounds a lot like banking..

I agree that TFA does not provide enough 'padding' to build a convincing application to an M7 school as opposed to for example, IBD, but my main point is that the option to go into TFA is there and will be utilized if all others have been exhausted. Nobody said it's easy - but they aren't exactly having hiring freezes and layoff's like most finance positions today.

My final point: just think of it this way, TFA is one of MANY options that students are moving towards given that they are denied employment into an ideal i-banking firm. This article can be all about some "x" job vs. i-banking and the results would be the same, minus the humanitarian clauses. I-banking jobs are becoming more scarce, and related industries with similar exit opps are rising, even if the exit opps are not as prevalent as experience in IBD.

In reply to Bruce.Wayne
12/28/11
Bruce.Wayne:
monty09:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Bruce.Wayne:

Success is subjective.

I, however, would never pick TFA over an IBD offer from any firm, in any city; but will respect the few that do. I will have to agree that the rise of people going to TFA over IBD has more to do with the current economy rather than a yearning for humanitarian causes. In regards to upticks and recessive economic climates, the people who truly value TFA will go to TFA, and if there is a sudden rise, it's probably due to the fact that student's are looking for exit opps into M7 programs -- TFA being one of them; in which case it is a viable option as opposed to doing nothing.

This. Growing number of Ivy grads ending up at TFA just means that more are using it as a fallback option after striking out at IBD and consulting, and these Ivy grads don't know at the moment what the hell to do with their lives. To be honest, it really is a random job and TFA differs from IBD or even consulting drastically in training, skill sets built, career track, and whatnot.

One thing that puzzles me is why don't these Ivy grads try to land some other corporate jobs in private sector, namely in real estate, tier three boutique consulting, IT consulting, or F1000 analyst jobs, rather than doing non-profit work? There are jobs in private sector outside IBD.

have you been through the TFA interview process? its not as easy as you think as a fall back...

for laughs lets think about this..

1.TFA draws from the top schools in the nation
2. for a two year stint
3. working long hours and in a stressful setting
4. many enter with hopes of solid exit ops
5. interviews are tough

sounds a lot like banking..

I agree that TFA does not provide enough 'padding' to build a convincing application to an M7 school as opposed to for example, IBD, but my main point is that the option to go into TFA is there and will be utilized if all others have been exhausted. Nobody said it's easy - but they aren't exactly having hiring freezes and layoff's like most finance positions today.

My final point: just think of it this way, TFA is one of MANY options that students are moving towards given that they are denied employment into an ideal i-banking firm. This article can be all about some "x" job vs. i-banking and the results would be the same, minus the humanitarian clauses. I-banking jobs are becoming more scarce, and related industries with similar exit opps are rising, even if the exit opps are not as prevalent as experience in IBD.

but banking does to a M7 school? if anything I think the TFA has a HUGE leg up as every banker and his mama that is even applying to b school is applying to the same schools. As I said eariler, MBA is not on many TFA members mind.

your main point is dumb. TFA is not a fall back as you say. People choose to take these jobs not after all other jobs denied. This is a finance site and I understand you have a hard on for banking but you are talking non sense. you make it sound like every ivy league student is applying to a banking job and while many are ... even more are not

In reply to Bruce.Wayne
12/28/11
Bruce.Wayne:
monty09:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Bruce.Wayne:

Success is subjective.

I, however, would never pick TFA over an IBD offer from any firm, in any city; but will respect the few that do. I will have to agree that the rise of people going to TFA over IBD has more to do with the current economy rather than a yearning for humanitarian causes. In regards to upticks and recessive economic climates, the people who truly value TFA will go to TFA, and if there is a sudden rise, it's probably due to the fact that student's are looking for exit opps into M7 programs -- TFA being one of them; in which case it is a viable option as opposed to doing nothing.

This. Growing number of Ivy grads ending up at TFA just means that more are using it as a fallback option after striking out at IBD and consulting, and these Ivy grads don't know at the moment what the hell to do with their lives. To be honest, it really is a random job and TFA differs from IBD or even consulting drastically in training, skill sets built, career track, and whatnot.

One thing that puzzles me is why don't these Ivy grads try to land some other corporate jobs in private sector, namely in real estate, tier three boutique consulting, IT consulting, or F1000 analyst jobs, rather than doing non-profit work? There are jobs in private sector outside IBD.

have you been through the TFA interview process? its not as easy as you think as a fall back...

for laughs lets think about this..

1.TFA draws from the top schools in the nation
2. for a two year stint
3. working long hours and in a stressful setting
4. many enter with hopes of solid exit ops
5. interviews are tough

sounds a lot like banking..

I agree that TFA does not provide enough 'padding' to build a convincing application to an M7 school as opposed to for example, IBD, but my main point is that the option to go into TFA is there and will be utilized if all others have been exhausted. Nobody said it's easy - but they aren't exactly having hiring freezes and layoff's like most finance positions today.

My final point: just think of it this way, TFA is one of MANY options that students are moving towards given that they are denied employment into an ideal i-banking firm. This article can be all about some "x" job vs. i-banking and the results would be the same, minus the humanitarian clauses. I-banking jobs are becoming more scarce, and related industries with similar exit opps are rising, even if the exit opps are not as prevalent as experience in IBD.

and for the record, they are having hiring freezes and lay offs...

12/28/11

I respect TFA and especially those who want to go into teaching, but

1. Most go into TFA because it opens up doors for other jobs like law schools, consulting, banking, etc. Many don't do it because they love kids; there's a lot of self-interest involved. I'm not knocking on those who enter TFA for its exit ops and corporate sponsors, but it's not like most teachers are entering TFA solely to mold the minds of tomorrow. In fact, I'd say that those who aren't good with kids but go into it because it's a good name on the resume are doing a huge disservice because hey, fuck up as an analyst and someone will catch it, but fuck up as a teacher and there goes 40 students' test scores.

2. TFA is not the easy way out; it's a STRESSFUL job. It's not the cushy 7am to 3pm job that you'd think teachers have. As an analyst at a top bank, I can safely say that the kids I know in TFA are as burnt out and often more burnt out than I am. These were kids who had a ton of energy back in college. People aren't choosing TFA over BB IBD for the lifestyle.

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
12/28/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

This article seems to suggest that the reason why increasingly growing number of Ivy grads aren't ending up in I-banking analyst gigs is due to self-selection, due to Occupy Wall Street sentiment or whatever. However, I highly doubt that is the case. It is likely due to the simple fact that analyst jobs are much more scarce in this economy compared to before.

And, Ivy grads turning down Goldman IBD analyst job offer for Teach For America? Are you fucking kidding me?? No person in a sane mind would do that. Why the fuck would anyone turn down a 120k per year job for a 30k per year job unless he is retarded? If I happened to know someone who makes such a choice, I would force that individual to get his head examined for sanity. Seriously.

It's like when someone gives you the choice to choose from a Ferrari or Honda Civic, you would be fucking retarded to take Honda Civic just because you are afraid that others will think you are a rich spoiled brat for driving a Ferrari. Teach For America is an absolute garbage gig compared to Goldman IBD. Those two don't belong in the same sentence.

money isn't the most important thing in life to everyone.

In reply to Faddy
12/28/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

Teach For America is an absolute garbage gig compared to Goldman IBD. Those two don't belong in the same sentence.

Congrats on being focused on all, but making money at an investment bank is the goal of a very small percent of the population. Seriously, when you get out of school, you'll understand. Also, look around at some of your ivy classmates...some of them are going to inherit more money than you'll ever make as a banker and therefore have zero desire to work in a bank.

Get busy living

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
12/28/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Lubyanka:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

And, Ivy grads turning down Goldman IBD analyst job offer for Teach For America? Are you fucking kidding me?? No person in a sane mind would do that. Why the fuck would anyone turn down a 120k per year job for a 30k per year job unless he is retarded? If I happened to know someone who makes such a choice, I would force that individual to get his head examined for sanity. Seriously.

I hope you're sarcastic, because if you're not, you're a fucking idiot! Do you really think everyone is 100% driven by money?? Do you really think everyone makes every life choice based on an expected value calcuations?! Some people don't give a fuck about how much money they make; for some it's a lot more important to live a life devoted to helping others that were less fortunate. You're so fucking stupid

Dude, seriously?

To address your points:

1) For those who are not motivated by money or not interested in a career in fiance altogether, why the fuck would these people apply for those IBD jobs in the first place? This article specifically states that Ivy grads are TURNING DOWN offers from BB IBD in favor of TFA. Realistically, a lot of times for those who aren't interested in finance career or money don't bother to apply to those IBD jobs, go through hectic/ stressful interviewing process, network, and do all that bitch internship work just to later ending up rejecting that full-time IBD offer in favor of that TFA gig. In summary, these two different gigs attract totally different applicant pool and different set of individuals.

2) Much higher percentage of people in real life are motivated by money rather than being non-motivated by money. You would be nuts to deny this. In this materialistic capitalist society, wealth, status, and power are desirable traits. Chances are, out of people walking on a random street, more would pick IBD over TFA job if given a chance because of the fact that far more people in this world are motivated by money compared to those who aren't.

3) IBD analyst job isn't just about the paycheck. It is also about exit options, contacts you build, resume building, and positioning yourself for a solid career in business/ finance.

1) A lot of people who pursue IBD opportunities are not even interested in a long-term career in finance. Especially Goldman, is a great jumping board for a career in the public sector following. So is TFA. Additionally, TFA recruits after IBD, so it makes sense that people already have job offers from Goldman and then subsequently turn them down. (+ what about people who interned there?) It doesn't require as much effort to get a job at Goldman as you make it out to be. If you go to a target and have a high GPA, there is no need to network, and the interview process isn't that intense. Esp. if you don't have the "IBD or bust" mindset.
But none of this is my main point. Who the fuck are you to judge other people and call them morons for picking one job over the other!! It's their fucking choice, don't hate just coz you're not qualified for either one. Your fucking nickname is "Sexy_Like_Enrique" for christ's sake!!! Shut the fuck up and know your place

2) When did I deny that "Much higher percentage of people in real life are motivated by money rather than being non-motivated by money"?!! All I said was that you can't go around and treat everyone who does not make life choices based on monetary payoffs as inferior! You just make yourself look like an ignorant dumbfuck!

"Chances are, out of people walking on a random street, more would pick IBD over TFA job if given a chance because of the fact that far more people in this world are motivated by money compared to those who aren't."

Wow! +1 for following your passion and giving a fuck about what other people think. Because more people would do something one way, you would agree?! Do yourself a favor and quit finance right now - someone as prone to groupthink as you should never work in this field. You're a fucking sheep and sheep get slaughtered as i'm sure you know! after all, only a moron would not be able to recite every line of Wall Street

3) Ahh! Exit options, contacts, resume building and a solid career in business! Thank you for introducing me to so many NON-MONEY related reasons to work in IBD. Jesus christ, you're dumb!

12/28/11

All Sexy_Like_Enrique ever talks about is prestige and wealth. One week he won't shut up about MBB and the next week he's calling people morons for deciding to work at Teach For America.

I like how one of the above posters put it. Some people upon graduating college know that they stand to inherit more money than 99.99% of their peers will ever make in finance or any other career path so they have the ability to devote their lives to something beyond the rat race.

I have a friend whose mother is the CEO of a F500 company and he went to great schools his entire life, and received outstanding grades at all of them. Is he at GS post-graduation? NO, he's in Rio working with a tiny political group (which holds no prestige) to help clean up the favelas outside of Rio. In the meantime he's learning Portuguese, hanging out on the beaches and meeting a number of unbelievable Brazilian women. If I were ever admitted to HBS and subsequently offered an Associate role at KKR I would STILL trade for his life in a second.

12/28/11

At my ivy, there's a core group of students who have always known that TFA was the path for them. My best friend has been thinking about the program since before she even got here. She now runs several mentoring and tutoring programs.

But the vast majority of students don't have a clear idea of where their future lies. My ivy has a liberal arts program, and we kind of all wander around in our studies, find what we're interested in, and then figure out what that means for our future.

Almost 20% of my graduating class applies for TFA; very few are accepted. Compare that to the 14% of the class that ends up in finance or business... I know I'm comparing numbers of applications to numbers of jobs, but I will venture that the vast majority of people here who want to go into finance or business do find a job, whether it's at a brand name bank / consultancy, local boutique, or F500.

TFA has a broad appeal, in that it's a program that lets you give back to society for two-years, but offers you plenty of opportunity to do something else with your life after. I will agree that most of the people don't go into TFA thinking that they will go into teaching as a career, but the point of TFA is that people develop a passion for teaching and a number go on to be teachers.

From a student's perspective, TFA is a great opportunity to do something good for the world (1) while getting more time to decide on a career path or (2) before going into what are now considered questionably moral careers (banking, big law...).

I agree that the downturn has increased TFA's appeal, but I don't think it's because people can't find jobs. Ivy grads are smart; we know about opportunities at boutiques and whatnot. Hiring is still pretty strong here. As I said before, I firmly believe that any qualified senior at my school (there are some who have serious trouble with basic math; they wouldn't get into TFA either) can land a job. It's really that students are questioning their life goals. With the recent vilification of the finance industry, more people are turning away.

People are "defecting" to TFA, because we as a generation are questioning our life goals. Yes, the majority of students are on financial aid, but that doesn't mean that everyone's chasing money. I think that our strong financial aid actually clears the way for students to pursue what they want to. (I don't know the statistics, but most students graduate debt-free and those who don't aren't suffocated under the debt. Our financial aid policy is set up so that you can graduate debt-free as long as you work on-campus.) Most grads look to the future as their own, and we all have different principles by which we want to live our lives. I think a liberal arts education helps us understand the importance of doing good and giving back. Yes, I know that one could do a lot more by earning a bajillion dollars and donating it than by teaching inner-city children for two years, but there's something magical about being there and actually affecting the change.

I know that a year ago, I would have laughed at the thought of applying to TFA. I've figured out that I'm genuinely interested in business strategy and how that affects the markets, and I think that's where my career lies. But truthfully, I could see myself applying for TFA next year. I can always get on with my life after the two years, and I'll feel like I've done something worthwhile.

In reply to revoad
12/28/11
In reply to UFOinsider
12/28/11
UFOinsider:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

Teach For America is an absolute garbage gig compared to Goldman IBD. Those two don't belong in the same sentence.

Congrats on being focused on all, but making money at an investment bank is the goal of a very small percent of the population. Seriously, when you get out of school, you'll understand. Also, look around at some of your ivy classmates...some of them are going to inherit more money than you'll ever make as a banker and therefore have zero desire to work in a bank.

This is very true though. However, I'd bet over 95% of people at my college aren't set for life and can't count on coasting rest of their lives based on inheritance or family wealth.

I only know a handful of kids at my college who are mega-wealthy. most kids I know come from lower-upper class or upper middle class.

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
12/28/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
UFOinsider:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

Teach For America is an absolute garbage gig compared to Goldman IBD. Those two don't belong in the same sentence.

Congrats on being focused on all, but making money at an investment bank is the goal of a very small percent of the population. Seriously, when you get out of school, you'll understand. Also, look around at some of your ivy classmates...some of them are going to inherit more money than you'll ever make as a banker and therefore have zero desire to work in a bank.

This is very true though. However, I'd bet over 95% of people at my college aren't set for life and can count on coasting rest of their lives based on inheritance or family wealth.

I only know a handful of kids at my college who are mega-wealthy. most kids I know come from lower-upper class or upper middle class.

As you go through life, you'll see that the vast majority of people really aren't that smart or ambitious. Only about 5% +/- of the people you meet will ever really impress you, the rest are just going through life. There's a higher concentration of motivated people in finance, but even here some peope are so complacent they blow my mind.

You just gotta keep focused and blow past them, don't waste time trying to change them: they'll become your competition :)

Get busy living

In reply to Lubyanka
12/28/11
Lubyanka:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Lubyanka:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

And, Ivy grads turning down Goldman IBD analyst job offer for Teach For America? Are you fucking kidding me?? No person in a sane mind would do that. Why the fuck would anyone turn down a 120k per year job for a 30k per year job unless he is retarded? If I happened to know someone who makes such a choice, I would force that individual to get his head examined for sanity. Seriously.

I hope you're sarcastic, because if you're not, you're a fucking idiot! Do you really think everyone is 100% driven by money?? Do you really think everyone makes every life choice based on an expected value calcuations?! Some people don't give a fuck about how much money they make; for some it's a lot more important to live a life devoted to helping others that were less fortunate. You're so fucking stupid

Dude, seriously?

To address your points:

1) For those who are not motivated by money or not interested in a career in fiance altogether, why the fuck would these people apply for those IBD jobs in the first place? This article specifically states that Ivy grads are TURNING DOWN offers from BB IBD in favor of TFA. Realistically, a lot of times for those who aren't interested in finance career or money don't bother to apply to those IBD jobs, go through hectic/ stressful interviewing process, network, and do all that bitch internship work just to later ending up rejecting that full-time IBD offer in favor of that TFA gig. In summary, these two different gigs attract totally different applicant pool and different set of individuals.

2) Much higher percentage of people in real life are motivated by money rather than being non-motivated by money. You would be nuts to deny this. In this materialistic capitalist society, wealth, status, and power are desirable traits. Chances are, out of people walking on a random street, more would pick IBD over TFA job if given a chance because of the fact that far more people in this world are motivated by money compared to those who aren't.

3) IBD analyst job isn't just about the paycheck. It is also about exit options, contacts you build, resume building, and positioning yourself for a solid career in business/ finance.

1) A lot of people who pursue IBD opportunities are not even interested in a long-term career in finance. Especially Goldman, is a great jumping board for a career in the public sector following. So is TFA. Additionally, TFA recruits after IBD, so it makes sense that people already have job offers from Goldman and then subsequently turn them down. (+ what about people who interned there?) It doesn't require as much effort to get a job at Goldman as you make it out to be. If you go to a target and have a high GPA, there is no need to network, and the interview process isn't that intense. Esp. if you don't have the "IBD or bust" mindset.
But none of this is my main point. Who the fuck are you to judge other people and call them morons for picking one job over the other!! It's their fucking choice, don't hate just coz you're not qualified for either one. Your fucking nickname is "Sexy_Like_Enrique" for christ's sake!!! Shut the fuck up and know your place

2) When did I deny that "Much higher percentage of people in real life are motivated by money rather than being non-motivated by money"?!! All I said was that you can't go around and treat everyone who does not make life choices based on monetary payoffs as inferior! You just make yourself look like an ignorant dumbfuck!

"Chances are, out of people walking on a random street, more would pick IBD over TFA job if given a chance because of the fact that far more people in this world are motivated by money compared to those who aren't."

Wow! +1 for following your passion and giving a fuck about what other people think. Because more people would do something one way, you would agree?! Do yourself a favor and quit finance right now - someone as prone to groupthink as you should never work in this field. You're a fucking sheep and sheep get slaughtered as i'm sure you know! after all, only a moron would not be able to recite every line of Wall Street

3) Ahh! Exit options, contacts, resume building and a solid career in business! Thank you for introducing me to so many NON-MONEY related reasons to work in IBD. Jesus christ, you're dumb!

Haha. You are a clown. I swear some posters in this forum are fucking dumb as a rock. You are telling me that people from Goldman IBD go work as some math teacher after analyst years at TFA. You are nuts. No, Goldman IBD bankers would end up in PE shops or stay in I-banks, most likely.

And, no, getting a job at Goldman IBD isn't as easy as you make it out to be, even if you attend Harvard and have a top GPA. OCR at target schools is fiercely competitive and there is insane amount of competition at OCR of Ivies, just to LAND first round IBD interviews.

Edit: do you even attend an Ivy? judging from your shitty language and lack of intellect, I guess no. In that case, none of this discussion concerns you.

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
12/28/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Lubyanka:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Lubyanka:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

And, Ivy grads turning down Goldman IBD analyst job offer for Teach For America? Are you fucking kidding me?? No person in a sane mind would do that. Why the fuck would anyone turn down a 120k per year job for a 30k per year job unless he is retarded? If I happened to know someone who makes such a choice, I would force that individual to get his head examined for sanity. Seriously.

I hope you're sarcastic, because if you're not, you're a fucking idiot! Do you really think everyone is 100% driven by money?? Do you really think everyone makes every life choice based on an expected value calcuations?! Some people don't give a fuck about how much money they make; for some it's a lot more important to live a life devoted to helping others that were less fortunate. You're so fucking stupid

Dude, seriously?

To address your points:

1) For those who are not motivated by money or not interested in a career in fiance altogether, why the fuck would these people apply for those IBD jobs in the first place? This article specifically states that Ivy grads are TURNING DOWN offers from BB IBD in favor of TFA. Realistically, a lot of times for those who aren't interested in finance career or money don't bother to apply to those IBD jobs, go through hectic/ stressful interviewing process, network, and do all that bitch internship work just to later ending up rejecting that full-time IBD offer in favor of that TFA gig. In summary, these two different gigs attract totally different applicant pool and different set of individuals.

2) Much higher percentage of people in real life are motivated by money rather than being non-motivated by money. You would be nuts to deny this. In this materialistic capitalist society, wealth, status, and power are desirable traits. Chances are, out of people walking on a random street, more would pick IBD over TFA job if given a chance because of the fact that far more people in this world are motivated by money compared to those who aren't.

3) IBD analyst job isn't just about the paycheck. It is also about exit options, contacts you build, resume building, and positioning yourself for a solid career in business/ finance.

1) A lot of people who pursue IBD opportunities are not even interested in a long-term career in finance. Especially Goldman, is a great jumping board for a career in the public sector following. So is TFA. Additionally, TFA recruits after IBD, so it makes sense that people already have job offers from Goldman and then subsequently turn them down. (+ what about people who interned there?) It doesn't require as much effort to get a job at Goldman as you make it out to be. If you go to a target and have a high GPA, there is no need to network, and the interview process isn't that intense. Esp. if you don't have the "IBD or bust" mindset.
But none of this is my main point. Who the fuck are you to judge other people and call them morons for picking one job over the other!! It's their fucking choice, don't hate just coz you're not qualified for either one. Your fucking nickname is "Sexy_Like_Enrique" for christ's sake!!! Shut the fuck up and know your place

2) When did I deny that "Much higher percentage of people in real life are motivated by money rather than being non-motivated by money"?!! All I said was that you can't go around and treat everyone who does not make life choices based on monetary payoffs as inferior! You just make yourself look like an ignorant dumbfuck!

"Chances are, out of people walking on a random street, more would pick IBD over TFA job if given a chance because of the fact that far more people in this world are motivated by money compared to those who aren't."

Wow! +1 for following your passion and giving a fuck about what other people think. Because more people would do something one way, you would agree?! Do yourself a favor and quit finance right now - someone as prone to groupthink as you should never work in this field. You're a fucking sheep and sheep get slaughtered as i'm sure you know! after all, only a moron would not be able to recite every line of Wall Street

3) Ahh! Exit options, contacts, resume building and a solid career in business! Thank you for introducing me to so many NON-MONEY related reasons to work in IBD. Jesus christ, you're dumb!

Haha. You are a clown. I swear some posters in this forum are fucking dumb as a rock. You are telling me that people from Goldman IBD go work as some math teacher after analyst years at TFA. You are nuts. No, Goldman IBD bankers would end up in PE shops or stay in I-banks, most likely.

Edit: do you even attend an Ivy? judging from your shitty language and lack of intellect, I guess no. In that case, none of this discussion concerns you.

Please demonstrate your outstanding intellect and tell me where I said that "people from Goldman IBD go work as some math teacher after analyst years at TFA". Please! If not, I'm looking forward to additional ad hominem attacks. And I got into all 3 ivies I applied to (one of which I'm attending now), you fucking moron. In another post, you mentioned that you go to a lower-tier ivy - which means I go to a higher-ranked school than you. tough luck, for someone who's so focused on prestige and money, you're failing pretty miserable at attaining either of them

12/28/11

Didn't read all the other comments but thought I'd chime in as someone who was recruiting for both IBD and TFA for FT this year.

Basically, there are far fewer finance jobs out there (obviously) while TFA is actively looking to expand (i.e. hiring more people). In fact, I was told this directly by a TFA recruiter.

The article is a bit misleading.

"Rage, rage against the dying of the light." - DT

In reply to Lubyanka
12/28/11
Lubyanka:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Lubyanka:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Lubyanka:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

And, Ivy grads turning down Goldman IBD analyst job offer for Teach For America? Are you fucking kidding me?? No person in a sane mind would do that. Why the fuck would anyone turn down a 120k per year job for a 30k per year job unless he is retarded? If I happened to know someone who makes such a choice, I would force that individual to get his head examined for sanity. Seriously.

I hope you're sarcastic, because if you're not, you're a fucking idiot! Do you really think everyone is 100% driven by money?? Do you really think everyone makes every life choice based on an expected value calcuations?! Some people don't give a fuck about how much money they make; for some it's a lot more important to live a life devoted to helping others that were less fortunate. You're so fucking stupid

Dude, seriously?

To address your points:

1) For those who are not motivated by money or not interested in a career in fiance altogether, why the fuck would these people apply for those IBD jobs in the first place? This article specifically states that Ivy grads are TURNING DOWN offers from BB IBD in favor of TFA. Realistically, a lot of times for those who aren't interested in finance career or money don't bother to apply to those IBD jobs, go through hectic/ stressful interviewing process, network, and do all that bitch internship work just to later ending up rejecting that full-time IBD offer in favor of that TFA gig. In summary, these two different gigs attract totally different applicant pool and different set of individuals.

2) Much higher percentage of people in real life are motivated by money rather than being non-motivated by money. You would be nuts to deny this. In this materialistic capitalist society, wealth, status, and power are desirable traits. Chances are, out of people walking on a random street, more would pick IBD over TFA job if given a chance because of the fact that far more people in this world are motivated by money compared to those who aren't.

3) IBD analyst job isn't just about the paycheck. It is also about exit options, contacts you build, resume building, and positioning yourself for a solid career in business/ finance.

1) A lot of people who pursue IBD opportunities are not even interested in a long-term career in finance. Especially Goldman, is a great jumping board for a career in the public sector following. So is TFA. Additionally, TFA recruits after IBD, so it makes sense that people already have job offers from Goldman and then subsequently turn them down. (+ what about people who interned there?) It doesn't require as much effort to get a job at Goldman as you make it out to be. If you go to a target and have a high GPA, there is no need to network, and the interview process isn't that intense. Esp. if you don't have the "IBD or bust" mindset.
But none of this is my main point. Who the fuck are you to judge other people and call them morons for picking one job over the other!! It's their fucking choice, don't hate just coz you're not qualified for either one. Your fucking nickname is "Sexy_Like_Enrique" for christ's sake!!! Shut the fuck up and know your place

2) When did I deny that "Much higher percentage of people in real life are motivated by money rather than being non-motivated by money"?!! All I said was that you can't go around and treat everyone who does not make life choices based on monetary payoffs as inferior! You just make yourself look like an ignorant dumbfuck!

"Chances are, out of people walking on a random street, more would pick IBD over TFA job if given a chance because of the fact that far more people in this world are motivated by money compared to those who aren't."

Wow! +1 for following your passion and giving a fuck about what other people think. Because more people would do something one way, you would agree?! Do yourself a favor and quit finance right now - someone as prone to groupthink as you should never work in this field. You're a fucking sheep and sheep get slaughtered as i'm sure you know! after all, only a moron would not be able to recite every line of Wall Street

3) Ahh! Exit options, contacts, resume building and a solid career in business! Thank you for introducing me to so many NON-MONEY related reasons to work in IBD. Jesus christ, you're dumb!

Haha. You are a clown. I swear some posters in this forum are fucking dumb as a rock. You are telling me that people from Goldman IBD go work as some math teacher after analyst years at TFA. You are nuts. No, Goldman IBD bankers would end up in PE shops or stay in I-banks, most likely.

Edit: do you even attend an Ivy? judging from your shitty language and lack of intellect, I guess no. In that case, none of this discussion concerns you.

Please demonstrate your outstanding intellect and tell me where I said that "people from Goldman IBD go work as some math teacher after analyst years at TFA". Please! If not, I'm looking forward to additional ad hominem attacks. And I got into all 3 ivies I applied to (one of which I'm attending now), you fucking moron. In another post, you mentioned that you go to a lower-tier ivy - which means I go to a higher-ranked school than you. tough luck, for someone who's so focused on prestige and money, you're failing pretty miserable at attaining either of them

Enjoy your 30k job as a math teacher at TFA.

In reply to Aragorn
12/28/11
beta26:

Didn't read all the other comments but thought I'd chime in as someone who was recruiting for both IBD and TFA for FT this year.

Basically, there are far fewer finance jobs out there (obviously) while TFA is actively looking to expand (i.e. hiring more people). In fact, I was told this directly by a TFA recruiter.

The article is a bit misleading.

This. I think some people are severely underestimating the extent of recession and its effect on banking and S&T industry now.

Getting an IBD job at a top bank is no easy feat. Only few, even at top Ivies, will end up with offers from such awesome places. And, very very few of those who get IBD offers from top banks will turn them down in favor of that 30k salaried job as a math teacher at TFA.

In reply to UFOinsider
12/28/11
UFOinsider:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
UFOinsider:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

Teach For America is an absolute garbage gig compared to Goldman IBD. Those two don't belong in the same sentence.

Congrats on being focused on all, but making money at an investment bank is the goal of a very small percent of the population. Seriously, when you get out of school, you'll understand. Also, look around at some of your ivy classmates...some of them are going to inherit more money than you'll ever make as a banker and therefore have zero desire to work in a bank.

This is very true though. However, I'd bet over 95% of people at my college aren't set for life and can count on coasting rest of their lives based on inheritance or family wealth.

I only know a handful of kids at my college who are mega-wealthy. most kids I know come from lower-upper class or upper middle class.

As you go through life, you'll see that the vast majority of people really aren't that smart or ambitious. Only about 5% +/- of the people you meet will ever really impress you, the rest are just going through life. There's a higher concentration of motivated people in finance, but even here some peope are so complacent they blow my mind.

You just gotta keep focused and blow past them, don't waste time trying to change them: they'll become your competition :)

UFO insider:

I think you have some serious misconception about Ivy colleges. In real life, very very few people at any Ivy college come from true mega wealth. Most of people at Ivy colleges come from modest to lower upper class family background.

I would love to be that person who is to inherit millions and can just coast through life. I know a friend of mine from my high school who is rich as fuck. He sports an Audi R8 and rocks a huge luxury baller condo in Chicago and also has a family mansion in Beverly Hills. Basically, all he does every weekend is to live models and bottles and bangs hot girls left and right. Yes, this kind of life style is sick as fuck, but only a very tiny portion of all the people I know can live like this. And, if I was that wealthy so that I can coast through the rest of my life, I would drop out of college at this moment. Fuck all of this.

I was born and raised in a very affluent suburb of a major U.S. city. Even from my home town, very few kids are so rich that they can ignore their careers and coast through rest of their lives.

12/28/11

i fucking love how enrique is giving all this advice when dude was too fucking dumb/incompetent/socially retarded to land a full-time gig

12/28/11

Seriously, I don't think too many people at Ivies would be too hot about taking that TFA job for 30k a year paycheck. I mean, I know money isn't everything but I know some waitors, plumbers, and bartenders who make far more money than those TFA jobs will ever pay you. it is pathetic that people are comparing BB IBD to TFA gigs

In reply to whatwhatwhat
12/28/11
whatwhatwhat:

i fucking love how enrique is giving all this advice when dude was too fucking dumb/incompetent/socially retarded to land a full-time gig

I am not giving advice. i am talking about what the article said and disputing the claim, you fucking dumbass, hahaha. Your shitty reading comprehension skills may be the reason you are attending that shitty non-target you attend now.

And, no, I have a full time gig lined up in boutique consulting. I wanted a BB IBD but couldn't get it.

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
12/28/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

Seriously, I don't think too many people at Ivies would be too hot about taking that TFA job for 30k a year paycheck. I mean, I know money isn't everything but I know some waitors, plumbers, and bartenders who make far more money than those TFA jobs will ever pay you. it is pathetic that people are comparing BB IBD to TFA gigs

Personally, I'm just saying that if Ivies are dumb enough to take themselves out of the equation that this is good news for you and me...

Get busy living

12/28/11

Going through recruiting myself, I found that it was tough being a liberal arts major from anywhere. Even someone from an ivy school with a major outside of economics, is going to have trouble convincing any group that isnt a BB (or has a very established training program) that they can come in and really hit the ground running. I found that many groups are looking for candidates with knowledge of accounting, basic finance, and some relevant experience. Coming from a non/semi-target and a liberal arts major...it was difficult to explain that my coursework and internship experience was sufficient.

XX

12/28/11

You do know teachers made 30k like 10 years ago

12/28/11

Sexy_Like-Enrique is a worthless asshole.

Please come on here in 10 years and we would like to see how far in life you are with your attitude.

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
12/28/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
whatwhatwhat:

i fucking love how enrique is giving all this advice when dude was too fucking dumb/incompetent/socially retarded to land a full-time gig

I am not giving advice. i am talking about what the article said and disputing the claim, you fucking dumbass, hahaha. Your shitty reading comprehension skills may be the reason you are attending that shitty non-target you attend now.

And, no, I have a full time gig lined up in boutique consulting. I wanted a BB IBD but couldn't get it.

Shitty non-target with a better job than you, sup.

In reply to monty09
12/28/11
monty09:
Bruce.Wayne:
monty09:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Bruce.Wayne:

Success is subjective.

I, however, would never pick TFA over an IBD offer from any firm, in any city; but will respect the few that do. I will have to agree that the rise of people going to TFA over IBD has more to do with the current economy rather than a yearning for humanitarian causes. In regards to upticks and recessive economic climates, the people who truly value TFA will go to TFA, and if there is a sudden rise, it's probably due to the fact that student's are looking for exit opps into M7 programs -- TFA being one of them; in which case it is a viable option as opposed to doing nothing.

This. Growing number of Ivy grads ending up at TFA just means that more are using it as a fallback option after striking out at IBD and consulting, and these Ivy grads don't know at the moment what the hell to do with their lives. To be honest, it really is a random job and TFA differs from IBD or even consulting drastically in training, skill sets built, career track, and whatnot.

One thing that puzzles me is why don't these Ivy grads try to land some other corporate jobs in private sector, namely in real estate, tier three boutique consulting, IT consulting, or F1000 analyst jobs, rather than doing non-profit work? There are jobs in private sector outside IBD.

have you been through the TFA interview process? its not as easy as you think as a fall back...

for laughs lets think about this..

1.TFA draws from the top schools in the nation
2. for a two year stint
3. working long hours and in a stressful setting
4. many enter with hopes of solid exit ops
5. interviews are tough

sounds a lot like banking..

I agree that TFA does not provide enough 'padding' to build a convincing application to an M7 school as opposed to for example, IBD, but my main point is that the option to go into TFA is there and will be utilized if all others have been exhausted. Nobody said it's easy - but they aren't exactly having hiring freezes and layoff's like most finance positions today.

My final point: just think of it this way, TFA is one of MANY options that students are moving towards given that they are denied employment into an ideal i-banking firm. This article can be all about some "x" job vs. i-banking and the results would be the same, minus the humanitarian clauses. I-banking jobs are becoming more scarce, and related industries with similar exit opps are rising, even if the exit opps are not as prevalent as experience in IBD.

but banking does to a M7 school? if anything I think the TFA has a HUGE leg up as every banker and his mama that is even applying to b school is applying to the same schools. As I said eariler, MBA is not on many TFA members mind.

your main point is dumb. TFA is not a fall back as you say. People choose to take these jobs not after all other jobs denied. This is a finance site and I understand you have a hard on for banking but you are talking non sense. you make it sound like every ivy league student is applying to a banking job and while many are ... even more are not

Let me number this in an attempt to make sure you read my entire post.

1)Do your research; TFA is trying to expand.
2)Re-read my final point.

You make it sound like IBD isn't a feeder into M7 schools. Last I checked, there was a statistic on HBS's admittance, and the top 20 firms were cluttered with ibanking and consulting gigs. Regardless, I hope you re-read my final point.

In reply to Bruce.Wayne
12/28/11
Bruce.Wayne:
monty09:
Bruce.Wayne:
monty09:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Bruce.Wayne:

Success is subjective.

I, however, would never pick TFA over an IBD offer from any firm, in any city; but will respect the few that do. I will have to agree that the rise of people going to TFA over IBD has more to do with the current economy rather than a yearning for humanitarian causes. In regards to upticks and recessive economic climates, the people who truly value TFA will go to TFA, and if there is a sudden rise, it's probably due to the fact that student's are looking for exit opps into M7 programs -- TFA being one of them; in which case it is a viable option as opposed to doing nothing.

keyword - TRYING
This. Growing number of Ivy grads ending up at TFA just means that more are using it as a fallback option after striking out at IBD and consulting, and these Ivy grads don't know at the moment what the hell to do with their lives. To be honest, it really is a random job and TFA differs from IBD or even consulting drastically in training, skill sets built, career track, and whatnot.

One thing that puzzles me is why don't these Ivy grads try to land some other corporate jobs in private sector, namely in real estate, tier three boutique consulting, IT consulting, or F1000 analyst jobs, rather than doing non-profit work? There are jobs in private sector outside IBD.

have you been through the TFA interview process? its not as easy as you think as a fall back...

for laughs lets think about this..

1.TFA draws from the top schools in the nation
2. for a two year stint
3. working long hours and in a stressful setting
4. many enter with hopes of solid exit ops
5. interviews are tough

sounds a lot like banking..

I agree that TFA does not provide enough 'padding' to build a convincing application to an M7 school as opposed to for example, IBD, but my main point is that the option to go into TFA is there and will be utilized if all others have been exhausted. Nobody said it's easy - but they aren't exactly having hiring freezes and layoff's like most finance positions today.

My final point: just think of it this way, TFA is one of MANY options that students are moving towards given that they are denied employment into an ideal i-banking firm. This article can be all about some "x" job vs. i-banking and the results would be the same, minus the humanitarian clauses. I-banking jobs are becoming more scarce, and related industries with similar exit opps are rising, even if the exit opps are not as prevalent as experience in IBD.

but banking does to a M7 school? if anything I think the TFA has a HUGE leg up as every banker and his mama that is even applying to b school is applying to the same schools. As I said eariler, MBA is not on many TFA members mind.

your main point is dumb. TFA is not a fall back as you say. People choose to take these jobs not after all other jobs denied. This is a finance site and I understand you have a hard on for banking but you are talking non sense. you make it sound like every ivy league student is applying to a banking job and while many are ... even more are not

Let me number this in an attempt to make sure you read my entire post.

1)Do your research; TFA is trying to expand.
2)Re-read my final point.

You make it sound like IBD isn't a feeder into M7 schools. Last I checked, there was a statistic on HBS's admittance, and the top 20 firms were cluttered with ibanking and consulting gigs. Regardless, I hope you re-read my final point.

lets compare apples to apples.. i dont care about consulting... and overall finance still makes up a small number of b school kids... a larger piece of the pie sure but still not as large as you make it sound.

In reply to whatwhatwhat
12/28/11
whatwhatwhat:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
whatwhatwhat:

i fucking love how enrique is giving all this advice when dude was too fucking dumb/incompetent/socially retarded to land a full-time gig

I am not giving advice. i am talking about what the article said and disputing the claim, you fucking dumbass, hahaha. Your shitty reading comprehension skills may be the reason you are attending that shitty non-target you attend now.

And, no, I have a full time gig lined up in boutique consulting. I wanted a BB IBD but couldn't get it.

Shitty non-target with a better job than you, sup.

Congrats and all, but I fear for the future health of your employer for employing retards like you. LOL.

In reply to IamObama
12/28/11
IamObama:

Sexy_Like-Enrique is a worthless asshole.

Please come on here in 10 years and we would like to see how far in life you are with your attitude.

My attitude is totally politically correct in real life. I don't obviously express all my inner feelings. On this anon internet board, I can feel free to say whatever the hell i want without any consequence. That is big part of the reason I love posting on this site.

12/28/11

snitches on his friend since childhood...

how's that porsche cayenne, fag boy?

In reply to Bruce.Wayne
12/28/11
Bruce.Wayne:
monty09:
Bruce.Wayne:
monty09:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Bruce.Wayne:

Success is subjective.

I, however, would never pick TFA over an IBD offer from any firm, in any city; but will respect the few that do. I will have to agree that the rise of people going to TFA over IBD has more to do with the current economy rather than a yearning for humanitarian causes. In regards to upticks and recessive economic climates, the people who truly value TFA will go to TFA, and if there is a sudden rise, it's probably due to the fact that student's are looking for exit opps into M7 programs -- TFA being one of them; in which case it is a viable option as opposed to doing nothing.

This. Growing number of Ivy grads ending up at TFA just means that more are using it as a fallback option after striking out at IBD and consulting, and these Ivy grads don't know at the moment what the hell to do with their lives. To be honest, it really is a random job and TFA differs from IBD or even consulting drastically in training, skill sets built, career track, and whatnot.

One thing that puzzles me is why don't these Ivy grads try to land some other corporate jobs in private sector, namely in real estate, tier three boutique consulting, IT consulting, or F1000 analyst jobs, rather than doing non-profit work? There are jobs in private sector outside IBD.

have you been through the TFA interview process? its not as easy as you think as a fall back...

for laughs lets think about this..

1.TFA draws from the top schools in the nation
2. for a two year stint
3. working long hours and in a stressful setting
4. many enter with hopes of solid exit ops
5. interviews are tough

sounds a lot like banking..

I agree that TFA does not provide enough 'padding' to build a convincing application to an M7 school as opposed to for example, IBD, but my main point is that the option to go into TFA is there and will be utilized if all others have been exhausted. Nobody said it's easy - but they aren't exactly having hiring freezes and layoff's like most finance positions today.

My final point: just think of it this way, TFA is one of MANY options that students are moving towards given that they are denied employment into an ideal i-banking firm. This article can be all about some "x" job vs. i-banking and the results would be the same, minus the humanitarian clauses. I-banking jobs are becoming more scarce, and related industries with similar exit opps are rising, even if the exit opps are not as prevalent as experience in IBD.

but banking does to a M7 school? if anything I think the TFA has a HUGE leg up as every banker and his mama that is even applying to b school is applying to the same schools. As I said eariler, MBA is not on many TFA members mind.

your main point is dumb. TFA is not a fall back as you say. People choose to take these jobs not after all other jobs denied. This is a finance site and I understand you have a hard on for banking but you are talking non sense. you make it sound like every ivy league student is applying to a banking job and while many are ... even more are not

Let me number this in an attempt to make sure you read my entire post.

1)Do your research; TFA is trying to expand.
2)Re-read my final point.

You make it sound like IBD isn't a feeder into M7 schools. Last I checked, there was a statistic on HBS's admittance, and the top 20 firms were cluttered with ibanking and consulting gigs. Regardless, I hope you re-read my final point.

Again, I completely agree with Bruce.

All top Business schools are essentially filled with ex-analysts from IBD and Consulting and there is a reason for that.

At my Ivy, most of top students aspire to enter top I-banking or consulting jobs. Those who wish to land TFA or Peace Corps- type of jobs are those liberal arts kids who don't know what the fuck they want to do with their lives and want to avoid unemployment after college.

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
12/28/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Bruce.Wayne:
monty09:
Bruce.Wayne:
monty09:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Bruce.Wayne:

Success is subjective.

I, however, would never pick TFA over an IBD offer from any firm, in any city; but will respect the few that do. I will have to agree that the rise of people going to TFA over IBD has more to do with the current economy rather than a yearning for humanitarian causes. In regards to upticks and recessive economic climates, the people who truly value TFA will go to TFA, and if there is a sudden rise, it's probably due to the fact that student's are looking for exit opps into M7 programs -- TFA being one of them; in which case it is a viable option as opposed to doing nothing.

so a top student at cornell/brown/dart is equal to what?

This. Growing number of Ivy grads ending up at TFA just means that more are using it as a fallback option after striking out at IBD and consulting, and these Ivy grads don't know at the moment what the hell to do with their lives. To be honest, it really is a random job and TFA differs from IBD or even consulting drastically in training, skill sets built, career track, and whatnot.

One thing that puzzles me is why don't these Ivy grads try to land some other corporate jobs in private sector, namely in real estate, tier three boutique consulting, IT consulting, or F1000 analyst jobs, rather than doing non-profit work? There are jobs in private sector outside IBD.

have you been through the TFA interview process? its not as easy as you think as a fall back...

for laughs lets think about this..

1.TFA draws from the top schools in the nation
2. for a two year stint
3. working long hours and in a stressful setting
4. many enter with hopes of solid exit ops
5. interviews are tough

sounds a lot like banking..

I agree that TFA does not provide enough 'padding' to build a convincing application to an M7 school as opposed to for example, IBD, but my main point is that the option to go into TFA is there and will be utilized if all others have been exhausted. Nobody said it's easy - but they aren't exactly having hiring freezes and layoff's like most finance positions today.

My final point: just think of it this way, TFA is one of MANY options that students are moving towards given that they are denied employment into an ideal i-banking firm. This article can be all about some "x" job vs. i-banking and the results would be the same, minus the humanitarian clauses. I-banking jobs are becoming more scarce, and related industries with similar exit opps are rising, even if the exit opps are not as prevalent as experience in IBD.

but banking does to a M7 school? if anything I think the TFA has a HUGE leg up as every banker and his mama that is even applying to b school is applying to the same schools. As I said eariler, MBA is not on many TFA members mind.

your main point is dumb. TFA is not a fall back as you say. People choose to take these jobs not after all other jobs denied. This is a finance site and I understand you have a hard on for banking but you are talking non sense. you make it sound like every ivy league student is applying to a banking job and while many are ... even more are not

Let me number this in an attempt to make sure you read my entire post.

1)Do your research; TFA is trying to expand.
2)Re-read my final point.

You make it sound like IBD isn't a feeder into M7 schools. Last I checked, there was a statistic on HBS's admittance, and the top 20 firms were cluttered with ibanking and consulting gigs. Regardless, I hope you re-read my final point.

Again, I completely agree with Bruce.

All top Business schools are essentially filled with ex-analysts from IBD and Consulting and there is a reason for that.

At my Ivy, most of top students aspire to enter top I-banking or consulting jobs. Those who wish to land TFA or Peace Corps- type of jobs are those liberal arts kids who don't know what the fuck they want to do with their lives and want to avoid unemployment after college.

so a top student at cornell/brown/dart is equal to what?

and all top schools are not filled with bankers.... would peg @ 20% at most.. so still 80% from other backgrounds...

In reply to monty09
12/28/11
monty09:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Bruce.Wayne:
monty09:
Bruce.Wayne:
monty09:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Bruce.Wayne:

Success is subjective.

I, however, would never pick TFA over an IBD offer from any firm, in any city; but will respect the few that do. I will have to agree that the rise of people going to TFA over IBD has more to do with the current economy rather than a yearning for humanitarian causes. In regards to upticks and recessive economic climates, the people who truly value TFA will go to TFA, and if there is a sudden rise, it's probably due to the fact that student's are looking for exit opps into M7 programs -- TFA being one of them; in which case it is a viable option as opposed to doing nothing.

so a top student at cornell/brown/dart is equal to what?

This. Growing number of Ivy grads ending up at TFA just means that more are using it as a fallback option after striking out at IBD and consulting, and these Ivy grads don't know at the moment what the hell to do with their lives. To be honest, it really is a random job and TFA differs from IBD or even consulting drastically in training, skill sets built, career track, and whatnot.

One thing that puzzles me is why don't these Ivy grads try to land some other corporate jobs in private sector, namely in real estate, tier three boutique consulting, IT consulting, or F1000 analyst jobs, rather than doing non-profit work? There are jobs in private sector outside IBD.

have you been through the TFA interview process? its not as easy as you think as a fall back...

for laughs lets think about this..

1.TFA draws from the top schools in the nation
2. for a two year stint
3. working long hours and in a stressful setting
4. many enter with hopes of solid exit ops
5. interviews are tough

sounds a lot like banking..

I agree that TFA does not provide enough 'padding' to build a convincing application to an M7 school as opposed to for example, IBD, but my main point is that the option to go into TFA is there and will be utilized if all others have been exhausted. Nobody said it's easy - but they aren't exactly having hiring freezes and layoff's like most finance positions today.

My final point: just think of it this way, TFA is one of MANY options that students are moving towards given that they are denied employment into an ideal i-banking firm. This article can be all about some "x" job vs. i-banking and the results would be the same, minus the humanitarian clauses. I-banking jobs are becoming more scarce, and related industries with similar exit opps are rising, even if the exit opps are not as prevalent as experience in IBD.

but banking does to a M7 school? if anything I think the TFA has a HUGE leg up as every banker and his mama that is even applying to b school is applying to the same schools. As I said eariler, MBA is not on many TFA members mind.

your main point is dumb. TFA is not a fall back as you say. People choose to take these jobs not after all other jobs denied. This is a finance site and I understand you have a hard on for banking but you are talking non sense. you make it sound like every ivy league student is applying to a banking job and while many are ... even more are not

Let me number this in an attempt to make sure you read my entire post.

1)Do your research; TFA is trying to expand.
2)Re-read my final point.

You make it sound like IBD isn't a feeder into M7 schools. Last I checked, there was a statistic on HBS's admittance, and the top 20 firms were cluttered with ibanking and consulting gigs. Regardless, I hope you re-read my final point.

Again, I completely agree with Bruce.

All top Business schools are essentially filled with ex-analysts from IBD and Consulting and there is a reason for that.

At my Ivy, most of top students aspire to enter top I-banking or consulting jobs. Those who wish to land TFA or Peace Corps- type of jobs are those liberal arts kids who don't know what the fuck they want to do with their lives and want to avoid unemployment after college.

so a top student at cornell/brown/dart is equal to what?

and all top schools are not filled with bankers.... would peg @ 20% at most.. so still 80% from other backgrounds...

Well, think about what you are claiming here.

1) You are arguing that TFA gig will give you an edge for M7 admissions compared to IBD or consulting analyst jobs... Yet like half of all students at M7 MBA come from IBD or consulting.

2) People who enter M7 MBA often times enter MBA with the specific intent of breaking into finance or consulting. Now, if you can break into IBD or top consulting straight out of college, why would you want to take TFA over those jobs to begin with.

Many times, I-bankers skip MBA altogether. Their careers are moving too fast and they don't have to go to MBA for any career boost.

If you are sure that you want a career in finance, you would be a retard to take TFA gig over Goldman IBD just out of your misled belief that TFA gig will help you get into HBS or Wharton. You should just go straight to IBD after college and get your career started ASAP.

3) Now, I could maybe agree with some posters' argument that for those who fucking hate finance and don't give a shit about how much money they make, maybe TFA is a better fit for them. However, these type of folks wouldn't apply for IBD jobs at college to begin with, so it's not like they're choosing TFA over IBD. Also, these type of folks aren't likely to ever apply to MBA programs. Why would they go to MBA? Top MBA is a feeding ground for IBD and consulting.

4) honestly, IBD and TFA have almost nothing in common that it is ridiculous how those two jobs are being compared to each other in the first place.

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