Less Ivy League grads heading to Wall Street...
Is this good for Wall Street or bad? From Bloomberg:
Federal Reserve, the Securities and Exchange Commission, the Commodities Futures Trading Commission and others agencies in the U.S. and Europe -- will require the remaining companies to increase their capital, curb their risk- taking and reduce their principal investing.We are witnessing the decline and fall of the investment-banking profession as we have known it for the past 40 years. The evidence is everywhere. The increasing regulations on Wall Street -- as required by the Dodd-Frank law and still being written by the
Good. Less competition for me. Let the entitled rich do what they do best...play with the children...while the hardened workaholics from the lower classes slash and burn a new clique on Wall Street.
Shit will be better run...this is best for everyone. The old guard never wanted to be bothered with doing this job correctly anyway, let them go 'discover themselves'. When they get their heads out of their asses, mommy and daddy will find them a good job, so don't worry about them.
Until then, now's our chance.
Being at an Ivy League college and being rich don't have much to do with each other. Top Ivies are incredibly generous with their financial aid to their students who don't come from money. Many times, it is actually cheaper to attend Harvard than your state flagship. I can attest to the fact that at my Ivy, a significant portion of the class comes from very humble or average family background.
FYI, I'm not against ivies or rich people....but I am neither and so this is an opportunity for me and people like me. You can argue this point if you like, but that's how it is.
Please shut the fuck up.
Do you have any idea what it does to a person, their entire family, to be exposed to legacy changing wealth and to work in NYC's financial district? It's mindblowing, in the best possible way. For the better part of a decade I've poured drinks for rich people, and now I'm in the same companies as them...it's quite a trip. I harbor no ill will towards them, hell their tips allowed me to pay for college, and if their kids want to go be teachers, great, that just means the few jobs left here open up to me and the people I grew up with.
My favorite comment is the one suggesting liberal arts majors are today's Michelangelos.
This article seems to suggest that the reason why increasingly growing number of Ivy grads aren't ending up in I-banking analyst gigs is due to self-selection, due to Occupy Wall Street sentiment or whatever. However, I highly doubt that is the case. It is likely due to the simple fact that analyst jobs are much more scarce in this economy compared to before.
And, Ivy grads turning down Goldman IBD analyst job offer for Teach For America? Are you fucking kidding me?? No person in a sane mind would do that. Why the fuck would anyone turn down a 120k per year job for a 30k per year job unless he is retarded? If I happened to know someone who makes such a choice, I would force that individual to get his head examined for sanity. Seriously.
It's like when someone gives you the choice to choose from a Ferrari or Honda Civic, you would be fucking retarded to take Honda Civic just because you are afraid that others will think you are a rich spoiled brat for driving a Ferrari. Teach For America is an absolute garbage gig compared to Goldman IBD. Those two don't belong in the same sentence.
My man, if you are in an ivy like you say you are, wake up and look around at the people driving Mercedes and Porches to school at the age of 17/18/19. You still seem to have no concept of the money and power floating around you. If I came from wealth, there's no way you could make me work 100 hours / week unless I just loved it...but coming from almost nothing, 100 hour weeks is a small price to pay for access to wealth + power.
For the record, you can be both very smart and insane. There are some geniuses who are down-right insane and lack common sense or some people actually suffer from schizophrenia. John Nash may be a genius in the academic sense, but he undoubtedly is an insane man.
And, I am afraid your buddy also suffers from insanity. True, he must be pretty smart to have gotten those offers. But choosing TFA over those fine options implies his mental sickness or maybe mild symptoms of schizophrenia.
Fully agree. Several things have happened over the past few years: 1) The amount of hiring in finance has dropped substantially due to the economy 2) Banks have widened their nets to recruit at a wider range of schools. As the poster mentioned above, a 3.2 non-quant major may have sufficed in the past, but when you add 4.0 non-target quant students into the mix, it no longer cuts it. 3) The amount of competition for finance jobs has remained strong despite the economy, since they still offer one of the best paying options out of school. 4) Job security in this business is gone. Summary: it's not by choice.
Also, in response to the hating on TFA: while most of the people on this board would love nothing more than to do banking at GS, it's not for everyone. That is a really narrow minded way of thinking.
I am wondering, is your point #2 true though? So, just few years ago, banks exclusively recruited only at targets and ignored semi or non-targets completely?
This would really explain why many Ivy grads aren't ending up in IBD or S&T in as much of quantity as before. Reduced supply of these jobs, and increased competition for those jobs...
Also, wouldn't this imply that the career-benefits of attending a target school isn't very strong at all? (or at least not as strong as some people hyped it up to be)
120k means significantly more hours and stress. I'd rather take a 30k job and enjoy my life.
I hope you're sarcastic, because if you're not, you're a fucking idiot! Do you really think everyone is 100% driven by money?? Do you really think everyone makes every life choice based on an expected value calcuations?! Some people don't give a fuck about how much money they make; for some it's a lot more important to live a life devoted to helping others that were less fortunate. You're so fucking stupid
And to the guy who keeps saying that only wealthy kids attend Ivies.. Get a fucking life! they're all need-blind and give you as much financial aid as you need. Given how flawed your arguments are, I assume your SAT barred you from even considering an Ivy, but please don't blame this on your family's economic background
Dude, seriously?
To address your points:
1) For those who are not motivated by money or not interested in a career in fiance altogether, why the fuck would these people apply for those IBD jobs in the first place? This article specifically states that Ivy grads are TURNING DOWN offers from BB IBD in favor of TFA. Realistically, a lot of times for those who aren't interested in finance career or money don't bother to apply to those IBD jobs, go through hectic/ stressful interviewing process, network, and do all that bitch internship work just to later ending up rejecting that full-time IBD offer in favor of that TFA gig. In summary, these two different gigs attract totally different applicant pool and different set of individuals.
2) Much higher percentage of people in real life are motivated by money rather than being non-motivated by money. You would be nuts to deny this. In this materialistic capitalist society, wealth, status, and power are desirable traits. Chances are, out of people walking on a random street, more would pick IBD over TFA job if given a chance because of the fact that far more people in this world are motivated by money compared to those who aren't.
3) IBD analyst job isn't just about the paycheck. It is also about exit options, contacts you build, resume building, and positioning yourself for a solid career in business/ finance.
money isn't the most important thing in life to everyone.
That's really fucked-up, man.
Surely you don't pay your teachers that badly? Wouldn't it be more like 60k to start? Per hour basis would be better than Wall Street in fairness
TFA is a non-profit gig. Those gigs pay you like 30-35k to start. 60k isn't bad at all, but 60k -70k = consulting gigs.
Also, I am hearing from some posters in this thread that TFA works you HARD and TFA ain't a cushy teacher gig that you can coast through. That's right. What a shitty gig. You have to work your ass off and deal with all that stress for that 30k salary. What a joke.
I would rather do bitch work than get spat on by minorities for teaching them math.
And all that trouble and shame for that glorious 30k per year salary
my lord this is racist and sexist and arrogant and gross.
my lord this is racist and sexist and arrogant and gross.
I currently attend an Ivy. People aren't turning down WS jobs; they just aren't getting them anymore. A 3.2 English Lit major at Columbia, for instance, could have easily landed an IBD job with a bit of effort back in 2006, but these days it's next to impossible.
Dude, I fucking wish I was born just 5 years earlier. Fuck this shit, and fuck this economy...
will cohan really annoys me and this article is typical
he throws out some good statistics however seeks to explain them by throwing out a totally unsupported populist sucker-punch (that kids are going to TFA over GS). where is the data to support this?
In fact, the first two thirds of his article did a pretty good job explaining why fewer ivy grads (and why probably fewer grads in total) are going into WS - fewer JOBS! Cohan was too dumb to connect the dots within his own article. He even reverses cause and effect - saying fewer graduates are choosing WS because they see that it is sinking rather than the more logical explanation that WS is hiring fewer grads because its going through tough times.
Also, WS isnt as "cool" as it once was, probably lots of top grads are now going to work at tech firms. (Although is working at Facebook really more productive for society than working at MS?)
i thought after this guys book/rant on GS bombed that he would finally get his soapbox taken away
To be a bit contrarian on this remark, potentially creating a new Internet portal is higher value-add than changing colors in PPT's. And while we can all agree the economy is in a messy state of affairs but not agree who to blame, I think we can all converge on the fact that the banks may have contributed to our demise slightly. Just saying.
Cheers
.
I don't buy this altruistic crap. I will believe it when these kids choose TFA over GS in a good economy.
These kids fall under the "vagabond" classification under Alex Chu's blue chips, average Joes and vagabonds system. And guess what? Blue chips and vagabonds have an easier time getting into H/S/W. I see it as 2 years of TFA + H/S/W = enter a bank at a higher level. By the time they graduate from MBA it will be 4 years and they hope the economy will be better.
TFA has excellent placement into HSW MBA. I know a lot of ivy kids who can't get top finance or consulting jobs opt for tfa, so they can build their resumes and leverage it into HSW.
Believe it or not, not every person working TFA is doing it as a resume builder to work in finance...
If all the people who wanted to "change" the world by doing TFA took real jobs and donated a large chuck of their first years salary to inner city kids, more benefit would be had. I doubt that transient, non professional teachers, really make a difference in one year.
Go work for Goldman and send 2 kids to private schools or pay for after school tutors for 10 of them or something. How about setting up a scholarship for kids to go to state schools or pay for community college for their parents.
Why did you go to Energy Rodeo last year and co-host it? Why do you talk to various prospective monkeys offline and give them one-on-one direct advice? Why not just donate a bunch of $$$ to your top alumni and get them all to take WSP courses.
Don't hate on people getting directly involved, when you enjoy being directly involved yourself.
Ok no co-host, but still took part.
To everyone saying that TFA doesn't do anything, you're both wrong and right.
If anyone is actually curious, read the book "Relentless Pursuit: A Year in the Trenches with Teach For America". There is some very very interesting insight, as well as anecdotes, as to the actual value that these kids provide.
Some banks have refocused recruiting on students studying Finance at the undergrad level (meaning students from top state schools/private schools with good business programs, most Ivy's don't have undergrad business programs). So that explains one aspect of it.
Any truth to this statement? Having a hard time believing that banks would target UVA or UMIch business students more heavily (or as heavily) than Harvard or Princeton kids.
Not saying they are targeted more heavily, the Ivy League is obviously still the main base of recruiting for Wall Street, and at the end of the day the people with high GPA's from those schools can always get IB jobs, but it seems banks are now placing much more focus on business majors from top public schools and non-Ivy private schools with business programs, and the ones that fall by the wayside are the kids at Ivy's with 3.5ish GPA's and no experience relevant to finance.
As a decent sample I attended a program for Sophomores at a BB last year. Only about a third of the students there were from Ivy League schools. I also know for a fact that this same bank did superdays for 'non-core' students this year prior to their recruiting cycles at Ivy League schools to go ahead and lock in top people from elsewhere early on.
Stupid article. They're not passing up on IB for TFA out of the kindness of their hearts. They're doing it because of a lack of jobs. You do TFA when you're not sure what you want to do in life and/or there's few options for you.
There are very few "altruistic" people at these schools. Look at the top performers, like rhodes and marshall scholars, for instance. They do an insane amount of community service while in college, like setting up non-profits or volunteering in sub-sahara Africa. But then you look at where they end up going, and it's usually law school or finance.
I think most of you are forgetting that TFA doesn't preclude getting internships, expanding your network, and meeting so people that are very well placed to help you after the program is over.
Perhaps not compared to H/P, but compared to low-tier ivies, sure.
Cmon Billy, I know you're better then that.
^^ Aaah so US recruiting is becoming somewhat like Canadian recruiting in that you pretty much need a business undergrad degree to get a job?
Not if you go to an Ivy League school. But speaking for the school I go to (regional semi-target for banking), options for the people that don't study Business/Engineering seem to range from low-end entry level jobs (ie the jobs people just think of as jobs, not career-launchers) or going to grad school. I know people who have graduated with solid GPA's in liberal arts majors and wound up looking for a job for months and then finally just settled for selling cars. People in less quantitative business majors (like marketing/management) are having trouble too. And it isn't that the school is poor. Accounting majors walk into Big 4 audit jobs and Finance majors don't have much trouble getting something in Banking/Consulting/Corp. Finance.
Majoring in accounting may be the safest and arguably the easiest path towards a middle class, white-collar career track...
My response goes to this comment, //www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/less-ivy-league-grads-heading-to-wall-st…, which for some reason WSO isn't letting me quote.
You are making a huge generalization here that all that matters to people is money? It is becoming more and more clear as the years go on that Wall Street isn't the glamorous place that many people are brought up to believe, that even at Goldman Sachs Investment Banking you are not safe and neither are you on the top of the world, and that maybe they generally don't like the assoholic culture/system of many BBs.
It maybe that all you look for your career is how big your paycheck is, but some would rather be happy to settle for the basics and enjoy humanitarian services than slaving their life away for 2-3 years for a majestic promise land just to come to the realization that this promise land isn't exactly what it is hyped up to be.
Not saying I agree that more people are going for TFA over GS but, there is a life outside Goldman Sachs IBD
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/less-ivy-league-grads-heading-to-…
Dude what the fuck!? You are delusional, a product of the straight path finance system and have the narrowest thinking I have ever witnessed. Good luck being successful with this attitude
PS: Pretty sure it's "fewer" not "less". ;)
thanks bud.. good luck in college
Success is subjective.
I, however, would never pick TFA over an IBD offer from any firm, in any city; but will respect the few that do. I will have to agree that the rise of people going to TFA over IBD has more to do with the current economy rather than a yearning for humanitarian causes. In regards to upticks and recessive economic climates, the people who truly value TFA will go to TFA, and if there is a sudden rise, it's probably due to the fact that student's are looking for exit opps into M7 programs -- TFA being one of them; in which case it is a viable option as opposed to doing nothing.
very few people leave TFA for a MBA... at its core it does a great job.. it gets people into education who want to work in education.... you will have more leave to law school or education focused grad programs then MBA...
MBA is the last grad school most end up at
This. Growing number of Ivy grads ending up at TFA just means that more are using it as a fallback option after striking out at IBD and consulting, and these Ivy grads don't know at the moment what the hell to do with their lives. To be honest, it really is a random job and TFA differs from IBD or even consulting drastically in training, skill sets built, career track, and whatnot.
One thing that puzzles me is why don't these Ivy grads try to land some other corporate jobs in private sector, namely in real estate, tier three boutique consulting, IT consulting, or F1000 analyst jobs, rather than doing non-profit work? There are jobs in private sector outside IBD.
have you been through the TFA interview process? its not as easy as you think as a fall back...
for laughs lets think about this..
1.TFA draws from the top schools in the nation 2. for a two year stint 3. working long hours and in a stressful setting 4. many enter with hopes of solid exit ops 5. interviews are tough
sounds a lot like banking..
I respect TFA and especially those who want to go into teaching, but
Most go into TFA because it opens up doors for other jobs like law schools, consulting, banking, etc. Many don't do it because they love kids; there's a lot of self-interest involved. I'm not knocking on those who enter TFA for its exit ops and corporate sponsors, but it's not like most teachers are entering TFA solely to mold the minds of tomorrow. In fact, I'd say that those who aren't good with kids but go into it because it's a good name on the resume are doing a huge disservice because hey, fuck up as an analyst and someone will catch it, but fuck up as a teacher and there goes 40 students' test scores.
TFA is not the easy way out; it's a STRESSFUL job. It's not the cushy 7am to 3pm job that you'd think teachers have. As an analyst at a top bank, I can safely say that the kids I know in TFA are as burnt out and often more burnt out than I am. These were kids who had a ton of energy back in college. People aren't choosing TFA over BB IBD for the lifestyle.
All Sexy_Like_Enrique ever talks about is prestige and wealth. One week he won't shut up about MBB and the next week he's calling people morons for deciding to work at Teach For America.
I like how one of the above posters put it. Some people upon graduating college know that they stand to inherit more money than 99.99% of their peers will ever make in finance or any other career path so they have the ability to devote their lives to something beyond the rat race.
I have a friend whose mother is the CEO of a F500 company and he went to great schools his entire life, and received outstanding grades at all of them. Is he at GS post-graduation? NO, he's in Rio working with a tiny political group (which holds no prestige) to help clean up the favelas outside of Rio. In the meantime he's learning Portuguese, hanging out on the beaches and meeting a number of unbelievable Brazilian women. If I were ever admitted to HBS and subsequently offered an Associate role at KKR I would STILL trade for his life in a second.
At my ivy, there's a core group of students who have always known that TFA was the path for them. My best friend has been thinking about the program since before she even got here. She now runs several mentoring and tutoring programs.
But the vast majority of students don't have a clear idea of where their future lies. My ivy has a liberal arts program, and we kind of all wander around in our studies, find what we're interested in, and then figure out what that means for our future.
Almost 20% of my graduating class applies for TFA; very few are accepted. Compare that to the 14% of the class that ends up in finance or business... I know I'm comparing numbers of applications to numbers of jobs, but I will venture that the vast majority of people here who want to go into finance or business do find a job, whether it's at a brand name bank / consultancy, local boutique, or F500.
TFA has a broad appeal, in that it's a program that lets you give back to society for two-years, but offers you plenty of opportunity to do something else with your life after. I will agree that most of the people don't go into TFA thinking that they will go into teaching as a career, but the point of TFA is that people develop a passion for teaching and a number go on to be teachers.
From a student's perspective, TFA is a great opportunity to do something good for the world (1) while getting more time to decide on a career path or (2) before going into what are now considered questionably moral careers (banking, big law...).
I agree that the downturn has increased TFA's appeal, but I don't think it's because people can't find jobs. Ivy grads are smart; we know about opportunities at boutiques and whatnot. Hiring is still pretty strong here. As I said before, I firmly believe that any qualified senior at my school (there are some who have serious trouble with basic math; they wouldn't get into TFA either) can land a job. It's really that students are questioning their life goals. With the recent vilification of the finance industry, more people are turning away.
People are "defecting" to TFA, because we as a generation are questioning our life goals. Yes, the majority of students are on financial aid, but that doesn't mean that everyone's chasing money. I think that our strong financial aid actually clears the way for students to pursue what they want to. (I don't know the statistics, but most students graduate debt-free and those who don't aren't suffocated under the debt. Our financial aid policy is set up so that you can graduate debt-free as long as you work on-campus.) Most grads look to the future as their own, and we all have different principles by which we want to live our lives. I think a liberal arts education helps us understand the importance of doing good and giving back. Yes, I know that one could do a lot more by earning a bajillion dollars and donating it than by teaching inner-city children for two years, but there's something magical about being there and actually affecting the change.
I know that a year ago, I would have laughed at the thought of applying to TFA. I've figured out that I'm genuinely interested in business strategy and how that affects the markets, and I think that's where my career lies. But truthfully, I could see myself applying for TFA next year. I can always get on with my life after the two years, and I'll feel like I've done something worthwhile.
double post
Didn't read all the other comments but thought I'd chime in as someone who was recruiting for both IBD and TFA for FT this year.
Basically, there are far fewer finance jobs out there (obviously) while TFA is actively looking to expand (i.e. hiring more people). In fact, I was told this directly by a TFA recruiter.
The article is a bit misleading.
This. I think some people are severely underestimating the extent of recession and its effect on banking and S&T industry now.
Getting an IBD job at a top bank is no easy feat. Only few, even at top Ivies, will end up with offers from such awesome places. And, very very few of those who get IBD offers from top banks will turn them down in favor of that 30k salaried job as a math teacher at TFA.
i fucking love how enrique is giving all this advice when dude was too fucking dumb/incompetent/socially retarded to land a full-time gig
I am not giving advice. i am talking about what the article said and disputing the claim, you fucking dumbass, hahaha. Your shitty reading comprehension skills may be the reason you are attending that shitty non-target you attend now.
And, no, I have a full time gig lined up in boutique consulting. I wanted a BB IBD but couldn't get it.
Seriously, I don't think too many people at Ivies would be too hot about taking that TFA job for 30k a year paycheck. I mean, I know money isn't everything but I know some waitors, plumbers, and bartenders who make far more money than those TFA jobs will ever pay you. it is pathetic that people are comparing BB IBD to TFA gigs
Going through recruiting myself, I found that it was tough being a liberal arts major from anywhere. Even someone from an ivy school with a major outside of economics, is going to have trouble convincing any group that isnt a BB (or has a very established training program) that they can come in and really hit the ground running. I found that many groups are looking for candidates with knowledge of accounting, basic finance, and some relevant experience. Coming from a non/semi-target and a liberal arts major...it was difficult to explain that my coursework and internship experience was sufficient.
You do know teachers made 30k like 10 years ago
Sexy_Like-Enrique is a worthless asshole.
Please come on here in 10 years and we would like to see how far in life you are with your attitude.
My attitude is totally politically correct in real life. I don't obviously express all my inner feelings. On this anon internet board, I can feel free to say whatever the hell i want without any consequence. That is big part of the reason I love posting on this site.
snitches on his friend since childhood...
how's that porsche cayenne, fag boy?
great. really great. except I don't drive a Porsche cayenne.
Edit: why are there so many childish non-target retards on this site? LOL
Conclusion:
1) TFA and IBD had 0 correlation until the economy fucked the finance industry, and students began to explore DIFFERENT venues to begin a career. 2) This article can be about ANY industry vs Finance (given similar exit opps), and the argument can be said that the latter has seen a rise in applicants. 3) Justifications for the rise in TFA or correlated job opportunities vs Finance has nothing do with student aspirations or a 'rise in humanitarianism (according to article), but in my opinion, the economic climate. 4) TFA although not as prestigious to most M7 schools, open doors for MANY phd programs, law school, etc. (or alternate routes that someone who aspired to be in finance chooses to take.) 5) Success is subjective. A guy who wants to do finance will do finance, and TFA, TFA, the more you guys introduce all these anomalies like "oh he came from money so he'll do TFA" makes the argument entirely opinionated when we should be discussing logical facts; Fact is, whatever a person wants to do, they're going to do. If someone picks TFA over IBD, that's their own decision and should be respected in regards to that. Frankly, I don't give a shit if they pick TFA over IBD. That means less competition for me. 6) Again, TFA vs IBD is dumb; one of probably MANY reasons TFA is seeing a rise in applicants is the economic climate. Students who originally would have landed a ibd gig cannot, can POTENTIALLY see the TFA as an option to pad their resume in their quest to their own subjective success.
Logical arguments welcome
This about sums it up.
The author of this article should read these comments. IMO, this guy needs to brush up on his logical reasoning skills before writing articles or that newspaper's reputation is going to garbage can. some people struggle to understand the concept, 'correlation does not imply causation'.
Less Ivy grads heading to IBD =/= decreased desirability of IBD. Increased number of Ivy grads heading to TFA =/= increased desirability of TFA. Ultimately, just because more Ivy grads are ending up with TFA than before, it doesn't mean that more Ivy grads would CHOOSE to go TFA over IBD if given the choice between the two options.
Wow so much hate in this thread.
One question I wanna ask is, someone alluded to the fact that they were a liberal arts major at a non-target and are having trouble breaking in. Why the hell would you ever do that? Non-target liberal arts major is just asking to be a $20,000 a year substitute teacher at some shitty grade school.
kids in college make me laugh.
People really taking shots at Teach For America in here lol.
Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe the people (or most of them) doing TFA actually want to do it? While I didn't have a BB offer upon graduating, I did have quite a few offers that paid twice as much as I'm making as a teacher. But I chose TFA because I WANTED to do it. It's a 2-year program dude. Everybody that does it isn't some entitled douche who didn't get opportunities anywhere else.
It's still type A people, they just apply it in a slightly different way than the people solely focused on getting IBD gigs. Although you do get a nice check, some don't see the appeal of making excel spreadsheets for 100+ hours a week during your early 20's (gross generalization... kind of what's been done in here with TFA lol).
Since I've graduated, I just value a lot of things totally differently. For those of you that are undergrads and have tunnel vision on Wall Street, I understand, as I was in your same position not too long ago. But just know that not everyone is in pursuit of a big paycheck, or padding on a resume. If that's your prerogative... go ahead, but I think it is quite ignorant to call people fools and morons for making a choice different than the one that you made. There's no single path on how to live.
We're all in the same race anyway. Life's about who makes it not about who makes it the fastest.
both those kids are in college so they have not made a choice yet.. they are still trying to
Where is the evidence that TFA 'only recruits from top colleges, much like IBD'. Last time i checked, bunch of kids i know from my high school who attended complete non-targets are working at TFA. (schools like U Arizona, Washington State, Illinois State, Penn State, etc)
These kids wouldn't break into BB IBD in a million years.
Now, let's not kid ourselves. Very few people in the entire country would face themselves with the scenario in which they are choosing between TFA and IBD offers. First, not that many people across the nation receive BB IBD analyst offers in absolute number. Second, TFA and IBD attract complete different set of people and applicants, and lack any common ground whatsoever.
If I tell my buddy at Wharton to consider TFA, he would flat out laugh at my face. The people who are hard-core serious about breaking into banking or high-end consulting out of top colleges don't give second shit about TFA and many times these kids don't even know TFA exists. This discussion is laughable.
you are an idiot... if kids did not think about both.. WHY WOULD EVERY BB PARTNER WITH TFA?
you will not break into BB IDB in a million years.. TFA may be looking better by the day for you
I got an offer from an elite boutique consulting. While I didn't get a BB IBD offer that I wanted, I am sure my offer is a million times better than that shit garbage TFA gig that you are working. Keep it trolling buddy.
"Elite" = I work at 'who gives a fuck Inc.'
lol at elite boutique consulting
also lol at telling monty that his gig is garbage, have some monkey shit
and while your buddy at wharton may laugh.. he has much better options then someone at cornell.... apples to apples kid...
if your going to make a point.. make a fair one..
Sure. The point stands that TFA is full of people from non targets. your point is irrelevant.
This article is saying that IVY GRADS are TURNING DOWN IBD for TFA. This is retarded. (and so are you)
!
haha somebody's drunk
yeah someone been drinking the ibd kool aid
monty09....... you da man. keepin it real.
I am elite. TFA is one of the most garbage educational endevors ever created. Why help people who do not want to be helped?
Why do you insist on ignoring the fact that one doesn't preclude the other? I know of at least 4 guys in IB roles at top tier firms that did TFA first and THEN went to a bank.
enrique last I checked you got an offer for IT ------------------------ that's back office shit. What the fuck you doing bragging???????????????/
I got offers from both IT consulting and strategy consulting. I got both IBM offer and some strategy elite boutique consulting offer that I won't mention for concern of privacy.
I asked which is better. I took strategy boutique offer, though. The only reason I considered IBM was because they were willing to pay me more than boutique strategy firm.
So, go fuck yourself and enjoy your shitty non target university full of bunch of retards like you.
you're still a snitch though aren't you...
i'm pretty sure his doucheness oozes during interviews so probably that
^he's just a really shitty human being. I think that permeates no matter how hard you try to hide it....
whatwhatwhat i owe you a coke.
monty09 is not in TFA...
I turned down TFA for my IBD gig and I'm happy.
My cousin turned her TFA stint into Columbia law; she's happy.
Your ultimate success is dependent on you, not your start.
Fewer, not less
Guys - everyone is getting way to worked up about the merits of an IBD or TFA position right out of college. First of all, relative to most graduating students, either gig makes you a top 10% at your peer group if not higher. Second, its relative to what your personal goals and ambitions are. Third, your not going to talk shit about your own job or career of choice so stop with the "im not biased but go fuck yourself" bullshit". Fourth, in the long run of your life, if you manage to survive your own stupidity and retardness that generally permeates throughout this forum and kids in such entry level careers (IBD, Consulting, TFA, Tech), you will have multiple careers and experiences that make it unqiuely yours and no one elses. Some go into PE, some go into Hedge Funds, some just go home, either way, its unique to you.
Another point that is missed is that relative to the regressing general pay of IBD and generally stressful life of TFA, Tech and Fortune 500 is very hot and hungry for talent. They need expertise, savvy, and global perspectives. If I know being a monkey shit doing excel and powerpoint formatting all day for a shitty bonus, tech sounds, on a marginal cost perspective, seem a bit more inticing.
I don't know if this thread is sad or funny.
You can't go to a bar and drop this line on a 10 and expect to bag her. "Yea I work with TFA"
Umm... I don't drop I work for _____ at bars at all. If that's the foundation of your game then you not playin it right, playa.
Dude. "I am a corporate lawyer, I am a doctor, I am an Investment banker at Goldman" works like magic for 90% of girls at bars in a major city like NYC or LA. Try "I am a math teacher at Teach For America" at a 10 or 9, or heck even a 7-ish girl, and chances are she will refuse to touch your dick unless you look like Brad Pitt or Orlando Bloom.
True, chicks in bumble-fuck nowhere may not buy that shit, but many of those gold diggers in NYC get wet by your status, money, and prestige. Unfortunately, a girl's hotness and gold-digging instinct have high correlation.
if you're using "I'm a banker" that's pretty sad tho...
I have more BB exp kid then time you have spent in high school and college... my career stared in 2006..
funny i turned down goldman sachs with a mid 2.0 gpa from a non target.... i used their offer letter to clean up some pepsi i dropped one day in my living room.. i am sure you would of framed it and put on your wall
This thread is full of so much douchery, lol.
I'd argue that this is probably a good thing for Wall Street. Although there are certainly prestige whores out there (i.e., Cornell's Very Own Sexy_Like_Enrique), who choose to go to school based purely on some weighted average of the prior three years' US News Rankings (with slight modifications for trend, geography, and social life, of course), the majority of top students don't think that way.
In my case, for example, the only "Top 10" schools I applied to were MIT, Princeton, and Stanford. I was X'd from one and WL'd at the other two, and so I ended up at Cal. According to simple prestige metrics, I should've tried to attend Dartmouth or Cornell or Northwestern or University of Chicago or any number of similarly ranked private schools, but it seemed silly to uproot my entire life unless it was for MIT or Princeton. To put this all more simply, there's top students everywhere. I think Wall Street is taking note.
Also, I'll echo what another poster said earlier: Don't be a liberal arts major. It's hard to say this without sounding like a massive prick, but in this economic climate, nobody wants to take a chance on you. Sure, you could be a brilliant English major, but a 4.0 in Physics from UCLA or Michigan tells me a lot more about your intellectual fortitude than a 3.5+ in English/Philosophy/History/Economics (B.A.) from even the most ivy-covered Ivy League ever could. In going through recruitment this year and last, I noticed that even for IBD, a lot of folks had backgrounds similar to mine: Math/Physics/Computer Science/Engineering. At one BB Super Day, the weakest major I came across was Biochemistry.
Summarizing again, I ultimately think the drop-off is a combination of factors: There's fewer spots, of course, but because there are fewer spots, banks are seeking quality graduates -- graduates with strong, technical academic backgrounds, from a variety of sources.
Or: I could just be a massive prick suffering cognitive dissonance from my Stanford rejection. One of the two.
I don't know about that. Sure, having quantitative major is more marketable to IBD employers but not by much. For example, I think the best way to go is majoring in finance/ accounting at a solid undergrad business program such as Stern, UVA, or UMich Ross.
Undergrad business curriculum is fucking easy. At least, 100 times easier than engineering or computer science. You can save yourself so much pain and enjoy college, yet end up with an IBD or S&T gig out of a good business UG program.
Worst comes worst, you can get a gig at Big4 accounting with accounting + finance combo even if you strike out at IBD or consulting gigs out of college. But yeah, I do agree with your point re: fuck liberal arts and don't ever major in history or english.
not sure whose more retarded the "with tfa you save the world" crowd or the gs ibd or death crowd, so much retardation in one thread.
if u rly want to help people then make shit loads of money and donate it, much more efficient. there is enough unskilled labour to make the world a better place but nowhere near enough capital.
completely agreed. Honestly, if you really are concerned about the world and want to help people, go work at Goldman IBD and donate half your salaries to charities. Much more efficient and powerful method of giving back to society
You are guessing. I know for a fact.
all those schools are top 50 programs... still good schools...
like i said before... you are an idiot
Look at TFA's OWN WEBSITE.
TFA's own website says that salaries range from 30k to 51k depending on the market. That means 51k is the highest it gets. (NYC market)
my resume includes bear,jp,ml,lehman,barcap but no TFA....
and WHAT DO YOU DO AGAIN?
excpect make blogs about your korean skills for cornell?
trust me, not the first time I have had this convo
http://www.teachforamerica.org/extras/goldman-sachs-summer-internship-p…
[quote=monty09]http://www.teachforamerica.org/extras/goldman-sachs-summer-internship-p…]
one down there for Technology.... when my PC gets a bug, it helps for you to come get my IT stuff in order... also my email is down.. can you get that done.. also my BB is not working right.. know your busy but thanks..
Ok,
where is your evidence that TFA starting pay is 55k or whatever you claim. I checked its own website...
Also, if you don't work for TFA, why are you defending its status to death??
say please and i will explain in detail
please. I am curious to hear. Also, I am curious to hear if you like banking or not. You seem to like TFA more than banking. Then why do you work in IBD?
I'm not really one to get worked up over the internet, but I definitely have to clear up a couple misconceptions. Even though this is an anonymous forum, the fact that you're spewing this overt ignorance and currently attend Cornell is an embarrassment to my Alma Mater. You need to get some humility and tone down the extras my man.
But anyway. Base salary for TFA does range from 30-51K, without any of the benefits included. What they're not adding is that anything extra that you do is an addition to your salary (kind of like a bonus). The city I'm in pays roughly $45K base, and I'm coaching 2 different sports each of which brings in $7K. I'm also running the student government, and SAT prep which count as "overtime/club activities" and end up roughly being $1500 each. This is not counting the professional development, and anything else that requires you to stay past your contractual time (not by choice, so none of us get paid for all the extra tutoring).
All-in that equates to about $60K as a 1st year teacher (in my particular situation). This is also NOT counting any income gained from the summer whether through an internship with one of the corporate partners (~$10K) or teaching summer school (~5K). I'm also not in NYC so the cost of living is relatively negligible. I pay $530 all in for rent and utilities and another $250 a month for my car (insurance, gas, payments). I teach 5 classes, 4 different subjects, and 3 different grade levels. My day starts at about 7:30AM and I usually stay w/tutoring until 4PM. The coaching goes until 6PM. The only weekends I'm "in the office" is when we have a game or I'm tutoring a kid. The extra work (grading/prep) takes about 10 hours a week.
That's about $65-$70K this year that I'll be making while having the time to enjoy every single penny of it. I also got a kid into UPenn (1st time in the school's history that anyone went to an Ivy) and I can definitely say I'm making a difference on a micro level for my 80+ kids. I've had previous finance internships and this is by far the most difficult and fulfilling thing I have ever done. When I've finished with my 2-year commitment should I choose to leave I'll be able to leverage my summer internship AND 2 years of experience into either a FT offer, or something different entirely.
TFA is certainly not the hell that people believe it to be, but it isn't some walk in the park either. You either got it to succeed in the environment or you don't. I had other offers on the table when I graduated, but decided to turn them down in favor of TFA. FYI, TFA has partnerships with every BB, consulting firm, a couple of F500 companies, and nearly every major graduate program you could think of. All of which actively recruit TFA members and allow them to defer their offer for 2 years.
Some people choose to take advantage of the deferral and postpone that offer for 2 years and do some service with TFA before they head back out. I am one of them. A friend in another city deferred a Goldman offer. One of my co-workers deferred his Yale Law offer. These people aren't as out of their minds as you're painting them to be. Chill out.
thank you for your post... I help coach my wifes school baseball team with a TFA member and he bust his butt inside and outside the class for those kids. He makes about 60k but only because he is very active on campus. He spendtthe summer @ exxon doing an internship
alright. I see your points. Go Big Red!!!!!!!!!!!
you claim on comp was wrong
Salaries range from $30,000 to $51,000, depending on where our corps members teach across the country. Urban regions tend to offer higher salaries because of higher cost-of-living. Rural regions offer lower salaries but corps members enjoy the benefits of lower cost-of-living which helps them save money on rent, groceries, utilities and other living expenses.
thsoe 30k folks are making 30k since first year teachers there make that.
again.. apples to apples bud... if you make a point.. at least get the facts right..
they do have reading 101 at cornell right?
Congratulations. That is exactly what I said.
Monty is ambitious but....
monty would never understand the things you're saying because he's only a TFA member who makes $30k/year.
I am an energy trader not an investment banker.
My wife works at the high school that hires the most TFA corp memebrs then any other school in the state. She was the mentor for a women who is now over TFA Southwest USA. I help her review resumes of new teachers and believe it or not most come from very good schools with investment banks all of them. Not all but a good % of them. I think it was maybe three years ago the ivy league was roughly 45% of the resumes that had texas as a top choice.
So I go to a few major dinners that TFA throws a year and also thought like you. NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD PASS UP A BB FOR TFA.....until I met one at my table. He then introuced me to about 20 other at the very dinner who did as well. Some were s/t and some were ibd but all choose TFA then were heading to their BB full time afterwards. Thats how i learned of all the partnerships that the BB's have with TFA. The numbers dont lie. BB's are losing talent to TFA not other firms at a high enough rate that they partnered with TFA. Of course they can not partner with their comp so its bias but you get the idea.
Does TFA do a good job? Yes. Can every TFA work inside a bank? No. Do many do internships at banks? Several do but not all. Will TFA help or hurt to get into a top MBA? MBA's vaule a diverse class and while the top schools have a large finance based class, being able to offer something different can be helpful. I rather be the top fo the non profit pool then fighting in that huge finance pool for admission. Again everyone is different but I like to hedge my bets.
So you can bash TFA all you want and myself all you want. But I have seen both sides... yes my wife works in education, yes i make 3x more then her and yes I would not turn down a bb offer for TFA but thats me.
Thanks for your reply. Congrats on having an awesome gig.
Curious, did you start out as a trader or something else. You mention how I should keep my career possibilities open and be flexible and all. I was wondering how you got involved in the trading business.
Alright, I didn't know that you can go BB IBD from TFA stint. That is news to me. but I will take your word for it. Regardless, that begs the question that if you want finance, why not go straight to IBD after college? Why go through TFA at all?
But you do mention some very interesting points. So people can go TFA and successfully get into banking without previous finance experience? How is that possible? Does TFA give you some connects to IBD or what.
If that is really viable, I guess TFA can be a very nice back-door route into IBD that many kids aren't aware of.
Sorry to butt in, but-
One of the profiles on the TFA website:
"Kansas State University, Liberal Studies, 2006"
^ Perfect candidate for GS TMT, imo.
It looks like TFA does recruit heavily at Ivies too. But then again, it gets heavy representation from other non-target as well. Not to mention, GS IBD analyst class is tiny compared to the massive class TFA recruits...
It would be really stretching it if someone claims that TFA is a more selective program than IBD.
Curious, did you start out as a trader or something else. You mention how I should keep my career possibilities open and be flexible and all. I was wondering how you got involved in the trading business.
I started in a mid office analyst program and moved to trading. I posted it on here before how I did it.
Alright, I didn't know that you can go BB IBD from TFA stint. That is news to me. but I will take your word for it. Regardless, that begs the question that if you want finance, why not go straight to IBD after college? Why go through TFA at all?
I tend to agree. If you are set on finance why waste the time. Some kids I guess want to do both.
But you do mention some very interesting points. So people can go TFA and successfully get into banking without previous finance experience? How is that possible? Does TFA give you some connects to IBD or what.
Mostly students who already have both offers at time of grad. They just get placed in a training class two years after their regular start date.
Hmmm.
So, it is the case that people who go IBD from TFA already had IBD offers before starting TFA, right?
Doesn't that mean for someone who did not get an IBD offer to begin with, for that person s/he can't expect that doing TFA will open the doors into IBD...
correct in most cases... You are simply pushing your start date back until your TFA committment is over
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