I agree. I have an idea: get like a series 3 type questionaire to be asked when a new user trys to join. If they get less than 70 %, they're prospective monkeys or really dumb. And the questionaire could differ: For myself, a meathead college wrestler turned ABS trader a question could be:

Is possible to price Bermudan Path Dependent Option type with lattice ?

http://modernyuppie.blogspot.com/ The musings and antics of a Meathead college wrestler turned asset backed securities trader.

When we were at about 13k users the breakdown was 55% students and 45% finance professionals. I did some further analysis that showed that the top 250 users accounted for about 60% of the total posts.

This top heavy breakdown can be pretty typical of a public message board where a few users do the overwhelming majority of the content. There are still a ton of people out there that are lurking but not posting around 45k different people visit the site each month.

"Oh - the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion?"

I belong to several extremely pricey message boards and other services that have much fewer people posting, but higher-quality / less-repetitive discussions overall.

The tradeoff, of course, is that you get very few people who are willing to pay upwards of $100/month to belong to those, so you get less diverse viewpoints and content.

FWIW, I have been on here actively posting for almost a year and I'm not sure the quality of discussions has actually decreased.

True, you do see a lot of the same questions repeated quite often, but that's true of any message board out there.

Any Wall Street-focused site will inevitably have lots of aspiring college Wall Street-ers on it, and I don't think this is a bad thing. Sites like these are great sources of information for everyone out there interested in the field.

I don't know that charging something or having a quiz would be the best solution to this... perhaps some level of user-moderation or something along those lines?

My recommendation has always been more posting differentiation. If it was easier to seperate 'advice' posts from 'commentary' posts from others, then people that don't want to offer anotehr college kid advice he could find elsewehre could just move on to the posts they like, thereby forcing the kid to search.

Improving the search function might be a big help for such a system though.

Some of it is inevitable though. A forum is like a series of conversations you have with friends. A lot of times you'll end up discussing the same thing you discussed a week ago

The trading forum i see is even more dead. During one of the most interesting summers in the markets. Its a darn shame.

I completely agree with tbroker - this site has gotten pretty shitty recently and I guess I've been taking out my frustration by posting like an asshole. I was thinking of dropping off for good reasonably soon - not a big loss but potentially an indicator of a trend of Certified Users dropping off.

It is definitely a case of the uninformed regurgitating some BS to the even more uninformed. A lot of visitors are looking for an answer that isn't there ("yes it is possible to became a BB banker if you come from North Dakota State"), seeking reassurances that aren't there, and generally opening a path for those with scraps of information to reply with "authority".

Anyone else think this might help?

i think a good way to fix the repetitive posts would be to improve the search. Then, when someone repeats a question they can be banned or severely criticized for not following the sticky at the top of the page.

Without a doubt in my mind, the advice and information I picked up here played a significant role in getting an SA gig this summer which will probably lead into FT after I graduate. Coming from outside of finance or anything even close and late in the game (and from a dreaded, "non-target"), I never would have been able to become well enough aquainted with the field to land an internship were it not for this site.

Having been an avid user for a few months now, I've seen the posts that are either clearly bull s*** or just totally unessesary and yes they are annoying. However, those aside, I found this site to be a HUGE help in preperation for every stage of the process, from networking to interviewing to the internship itself.

Point being, there's clearly value to be had here.

Wow, it seems like for the first time on this site everyone is in agreement. When I joined this site a year and a half ago, I would come on and actually learn new things about finance, accounting, and the industry in general. WSO with out a doubt helped me learn about Banking and helped me in interviews. But the site is at an all time low now. Every week someone posts: Rank these banks, what are the best groups, rank these schools, can i get into banking from this school/background, this city is better than that one, etc. And WSO has been flooded with dating and 'should i approach her' type questions.

Ideating makes a good point when he says that this site has become so shitty that some of us just start posting like assholes. I know he and I have chewed each other out a few times, but its because both of us just dont give a shit anymore about what we say here. This site no longer adds value to many of us, and its a shame because a year ago this site was a valuable resource.

I now understand why some of classic members left awhile back. Its become more beneficial to just open a book, talk to a friend/alumni, or do work than to come onto WSO. We need to turn it around and make it a resourceful community again.

It sounds like there are alot of people complaining about the descent of the forums and "the good ol' days". Perhaps you could enlighten us how we can bring back the forums. I find it ironic that people complain about how bad the forums have gotten, but admit to being assholes (which I'm considering to be detrimental to the site more often than it is funny/deserved).

So I came here only a few months ago, so I'm very new to the site and culture. But I do know why I came here. To help my career search, and make sure I was doing the right things to get a solid offer and put my education to good use. While I'd admit that the search function sheds some light on how good these forums used to be, it doesn't discount the fact that even today, the topics are decent. I've enjoyed chiming in on a few finance-related topics. I have especially enjoyed taking in the discussions on current market events from guys and gals on The Street.

That said, I've found that the answers to so many questions that most poeople have here are as always, available through the search function. I liked a suggestion from someone above, that said we should work on refining the search function, and perhaps even organize the archives to be better able to search for topics. For instance, if I want to know the best etiquette for approaching information sessions, maybe we could have the 2-3 really good topics on the subject come up first, or be stored in a special "Commonly asked questions topic". Think the Famous Threads Forum, but with less humor and a little bit more use.

I agree with dosk that having more hopefuls here is a good thing. Being one myself, I'd say that as long as the Mods crack down on a the retards/flamers, we'll be good. Being an asshole might be what some expect from the banking world, but that's a misconception we should quell, not fuel. One thing I do wish is that more people would post. Ideally, the activity on this forum would be bustling alot more than just during the afternoons or whenever the average banker's downtime is. With August coming soon, I'd imagine traffic picks up here quite a bit, but still. Perhaps those already in the industry can reach out to their fellow analysts/associates/VPs even? and ask them to join. If the 30-some percent of posters found even one more person to contribute regularly, perhaps that'd be a good, easy way to start bringing in more experienced ibankers to offer better advice to the rest of us.

I like the site the way it is. You can still get a technical question answered quickly, fairly esoteric information on group reputations etc. The only thing is that you have to filter through all the uninformed opinions for the right ones, which really isn't hard to do.

I am also a current summer analyst that owes a lot to this forum and the advice that I have gotten from it. That being said, now that I am working as a summer I find it tough to find value in reading the forum. I still continue to do so, out of sheer habit as well as a desire to help others break into the industry. But I think that there is a lot of potential that has yet to be unlocked, as I'm sure that many bankers could benefit from the combined knowledge of so many users, under the guise of anonymity that makes it possible to discuss many different topics.

I do think that having a separate board for Certified Users only is the way to go, as I do not see any other ways for the board to attract and retain actual banking professionals. There simply isn't much value to offer to them otherwise. Even if I am excluded from this as a summer, I feel that it would be the best move for the board's future. The caveat would be that the uncertified users would still be allowed to read, but not post in these restricted forums. That way they could still learn from the knowledge that is being shared, without misdirecting the flow of the conversation or asking pointless questions. It would be akin to silently sitting at the star analyst's cube while they're jamming on a complicated model - you pick up a lot just from watching.

Finally, I feel that having a more professional layout/format would help as well. Presentation is everything in our business.

"Don't get emotional about a stock. It clouds your judgment."

Sorry, had to.

Seems like a lot of posters are forgetting about one thing - what is the value proposition for people with experience to come here?

if you guys have all got such a problem with the supposed decline in quality of the content, why don't you think of new/original questions or discussion topics to diversify the content?

Perhaps if you had some evidence that you've made a concerted effort to make posts of greater value to the WSO community, your beef could be taken more seriously..

Otherwise you're just being lazy and complaining instead of doing something about it.

should see the doostang boards. those are horrendous.

completely unrelated, but has anyone actually gotten anything positive from Doostang, e.g. interviews/offers/good contacts? or is it just BS?

joefish - doostang is crap in my opinion.

ideating - i agree that WSO doesn't really offer a value prop. for those already in banking/pe/etc. though i'm always happy to help other members, there's no need for me to visit the site regularly. i could just as easily write my advice in a word document and make it available for download instead of reiterating the same thing on 50 different threads.

i agree that there be a forum for Certified Users in which outside members are restricted from posting (but not viewing) discussion topics. that way, those outside the industry that need advice can be sure that the responses they're getting are reputable. the only other value prop. i could possibly think of would be some type of networking mechanism for certified users. i know anonymity is a bit of a reassurance to those who use this site - however, it's the only tangible benefit i can see for those already in ib/pe/etc.

I would probably be less inclined to visit this site everyday if I was already in banking. But I am one of the hopefuls, so I am using it mostly as a resource to try and get into the industry, and it is still very helpful to me.

I think there should be a separate advice forum. And I would promote the search function even more in order to avoid repetition. Maybe stress the idea that although everyone's got a different situation, they are all very similar, and the question has probably been asked before. Included in this forum could also be the countless comparisions of different banks and groups.

What I would like to know is what you guys would talk about. If you're tired of reading/answering the same questions or variations of those same questions, what exactly would you discuss? If you can think of an answer, then start a thread about it and increase the quality of the threads and the value for those currently employed.

I understand where people come from when they ask for advice but when people post threads like which bank is the best, rankings of undergrad b schools and other useless unrelated stuff like which school should I go to in order to get into banking, I start to avoid this website. I think for those kind of questions, it's best to refrain from posting in general and if you are really desperate then PM someone. Also, this goes out to high school students, please please don't choose a school based on banking recruiting. I know actual analysts and associates who have done so and they tell me that if they had chance to go back and go somewhere else they would do it. We're not even sure if banking will be as prominent as it is now four years down the line, and once you do one month of this job, you seriously feel like the life has been drained out of you. The only thing that motivates you is your paycheck. As for best banks; all banks are good and no one cares if you work at GS or Wachovia. Every once in a while, a bank has a good year and that makes it famous but when that bank goes bust, everyone starts laughing at it. So really, think hard about where to go and don't go for the name. Look for other information, i.e friends that are there or groups that you might be interested in etc. Do not look at stupid lists like Vaults most prestigious banks because seriously that list is full of crap. Questions that you could or should ask or threads that should be posted;

1) Technical questions - good knowledge build up 2) Discussions about how Bank A managed to circumvent the credit crisis versus Bank B 3) Things interviewers are looking for. When you ask questions like what do WSO analysts look for in SAs or how to answer certain questions, then lots of professionals will chip in and you manage to get a lot more information out of that

I have been coming to this website a lot less than before since the start of my internship . I seriously think I could contribute more and so do the others if they found something useful to contribute to.

Untitled123 you are a representative of the new level of douche bag on this forum. Your completely retarded threads and stupid comments that are supposed to be funny or outrageous are one of the reasons the quality content on this forum is deteriorating.

I think the main issue isn't the fact that there are a lot of college kids on here, I think its the fact people that are completely uninformed are posting so matter-of-factly. They don't get the concept of either having something significant to contribute or keeping their mouth shut.

First, I agree with the consensus that the quality of threads has generally dropped over the past few months due to the same reasons everyone has mentioned (stupid threads about ranking BBs, industry groups, schools, etc). These threads are started in large part by new posters that are still in school and are obviously new to the IB industry.

One way to combat this would be the limit thread-making abilities until a poster has made a certain # of posts or has been a member for a certain amount of time. Another way would be to have a stickied "FAQ" thread at the top of the page in each forum that has links to past threads about commonly asked questions. When I first became interested in banking and found this site, I was curious about the same topics - industry vs. product, unique features of each industry group, internship help, etc. I used the search function for the majority of these basic questions and found some fantastic threads that were a couple years old and had essentially evaporated.

There is a wealth of information in the archives of this site, and the same great feedback on basic industry questions are as relevant today as they were two years ago. If the moderators compiled the great past threads into an easy-to-find sticky at the top of the page, I feel it would do wonders for eliminating the repetitive threads that we are all sick of.

How bout we make seperate forums: 'Actual information' and 'random uninformative shit'

http://modernyuppie.blogspot.com/ The musings and antics of a Meathead college wrestler turned asset backed securities trader.

I actually usually come just for the 'Monkeying Around' threads, which usually make me bring out a bag of popcorn.

I onlt usually come around to the banking forum when I'm waiting for comments, or I'm feeling really masochistic, even more masochistic than updating the LBO comp database.

I've been monitoring and periodically posting on this site for a while now, and I don't think I've seen a decline in valuable content for the wanna-be banker or new analyst, but I have seen the ratio of dross-to-quality go up a bit. Readers just have to sift through a bit more noise, which can be difficult for someone who's a blank slate. To cut through this, the "Certified User" idea was good, and I think some of the more useful past posts should definitely be sticked in topic-specific folders, rather than just all lumped together. I think the perennial questions--how do i get my foot in the door, what to major in, how to network, etc...--lend themselves particularly well to this concept. For instance, an Excel shortcuts post was recently stickied (at my own suggestion, admittedly), which I think was a step in the right direction. It would take a fair amount of admin oversight to implement that idea consistently, however.

If we wanted to take that sticky topic idea a step further, I recently suggested to the site admin that perhaps a "wikibanker" feature be added, wherein Certified Users could contribute to articles on those aforementioned favorite topics. While it would be a pain in the butt to initially implement (not to mention monitor), this kind of thing could be especially helpful for constantly evolving topics (Excel stuff, for instance...new versions come out, new tricks are learned, etc...). I haven't really thought the idea through all that much, but I thought I'd toss it out there as food for thought.

I've been in banking for almost five years now, enjoy posting on here, and enjoy helping others out (the industry can appear quite opaque to outsiders). Like everyone else here, though, I'm frustrated by some of the uninformed chatter and agree that if something can be done to make it easier for the users to get at the quality content, I'm all for it.

Being very fresh to this site, information on these message boards are very useful. I know that all of us are sick of the "can I get into MS or GS with a 3.XX from university of XXXX?", but the reality of it is that I don't think we can effectively filter those retards from posting. I do agree that the content is declining, me personally I find all the good stuff from previous months back. I don't post me much on the threads but a lot of this stuff is really useful. My two cents....End rant

I like the wikibanker concept except it would prevent the forum concept since all legitimate questions would already be addressed in the wikibanker and the only thing Certified Users wouldn't have contributed to wiki banker would be the new Best Bank Week Ending 7/25/08 Rankings... what are my chances threads, etc...

I wish I could say that I'm incredibly swamped with deals and how I'm constantly on company visits, and that those things are the reasons why I haven't been posting here much. But truth be told, I pretty much agree with what others have stated concerning the declining quality of posts. This is certainly no fault of the site itself; rather, I'm just trying to figure out whether it's the abundance of pointless and unintelligent posts that are driving away the more experienced members, or if it's just because we've found other things to occupy their time. It might be a "chicken or the egg" thing, but I'd be curious to hear what people are spending their time on these days if they're not on WSO.

mods should be more liberal in banning people who continuously provide uninformed opinions. these people dont deserve to be on the board anyway.

repetitive/retarded threads and posts do exist. its just the nature of the beast-- the site has grown a lot. if the people who run this site want it to be a niche of finance professionals, then they should make it more difficult to register to post. clearly Patrick wants to expand more and more and get WSO's name out (a la facebook group) and i dont think theres anything wrong with that

Mods cant ban, only Patrick can.

And of course he wants to get the word out. Do you guys think hes doing this for fun? This ultimately is a business.

"Oh - the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion?"

This may seem obvious, but if the search function was more comprehensive, perhaps we could avoid all the repetitive questions?

I mean, I was looking for something recently and it took bloody ages to find it

I know Patrick doesn't have infinite time to devote to the site, but at present, it's so much easier to post a question and wait for a reply than it is to trawl through loads of old, disorganized posts.

I am glad this has sparked such a vibrant discussion, however, I do believe the best is behind this site. I do think there have been some good things, and I will continue to pop in and our, but for the most part I think the best minds have left the site, or are leaving. These reasons are why I took a 2-3 month hiatus, I just could not deal with the bullshit. Even as we speak there is a topic about "What would you do if time stopped for 10 days?"

I believe this is a business, however, it is one that is ready to die or be acquired. The additions such as the newsletter are pretty bad in quality and time needs to be spent, not in these frivolous additions, but improving the search function, stickying some posts, compiling a better FAQ and answering/updating them once a quarter, etc. I believe a forum for just the credentialed is an OK idea but I think with less bullshit it would spark, I know for me, a desire to post more relevant subjects and discuss in a more indepth manner.

This site is a lot like leveraged sellout, it was awesome and now it is pretty bad. I believe WSO has several savings graces and I would love to help if asked. There needs to be an end to the uninformed posting so matter of factly. It gets me to a point that I read all of this bullshit and then lash out in an asshole fashion because I am sick of the shit.

HAHAHA. You think WSO is catering to banker folks like you, tbroker? Do you even see the "Analyst Exchange" banner to the bottom, or those google/viral ads to the right, or the coffee machine ads to the left, o rthe "earn cash now!" banners to the top? The sad truth is that once any online discussion forum turns mildly popular, it becomes blind to its original mission, and its focus instead turns to finding as much traffic as possible to get the biggest ad revenue possible. I'm surprised that with the mercenary characteristics of this forum, no one saw this crap coming.

tbroker has a good point, and i do admit to being one of those college kids who gives advice to others. but at the same time after a year of digesting information online, in books, and talking to dozens of people in the industry, i feel like im capable of answering some of the basic, repeating questions like "Can I get in from a non-target?" and "How do I go about networking?" I also like to chime in with excel/vba macro help when i can, and shed some light to those who want to do PWM or ER internships, since ive had experience getting those gigs.

so, i dont think having a lot of college students helping each other on the board is a bad thing, but i agree there is an abundance of absurd threads on this board and retarded posts by idiotic people. there are clearly many things that can be improved about this site, as many of you have detailed. almost all of the gripes you guys have can be fixed in one way or another.

what i dont get is why some people are getting so emotional about this. if you feel that theres a problem with the site, go to site suggestions and tell the mods. its just an online forum in the end, and if youre weepy-eyed because its growing beyond the small niche of people that first started posting on it, then go start your own forum where you can all be together and jerk each other off.

You guys are on crack if you expected WSO to be anything less than a business. Does this look like charity? This is WALL STREET THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A FREE LUNCH.

Do you guys realize all these requests you want cost money? The only way to give these features is to have some sort of revnue generating mechanism. There basically is one way of doing that and thats traffic. All the redundant posts give that individual user a chance to keep coming back to the forum. That traffic generates revnue which will give you guys the features you want. What I have continually said needs to be done is better policing of the content forums (ibanking trading etc). Users seem to dump their question into the ibanking forum because its the biggest. I mean if you think there should be less ads then why dont you donate to the site.

Selling sponsorships is hard, selling direct ads is hard, and until they are all filled up the silly ads that pay will basically have to stay.

"Oh - the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion?"

Out of curiosity, how much revenue does this site generate? Can anyone venture an educated guess?

10-15mm ebitda

I know how much the site earns. If Patrick wants to share that he will. Im not at liberty to say.

"Oh - the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion?"

FUCK MARK KLEIN

http://modernyuppie.blogspot.com/ The musings and antics of a Meathead college wrestler turned asset backed securities trader.

Wow, not exactly the thread I was hoping for when I got back from vacation.

Some comments (I will write much more tomorrow when I get internet at my new place - on my blackberry now):

1. You are all correct
2. I hear all of you.
3. I will make every effort to improve the search engine asap and the orginization of posts or get a new WIKI FAQ going / stickies, etc.

Most of the frustration seems to revolve around repetitive / dumb posts. While I can't eliminate these all, I can make a concerted effort (with the mods help) to start deleting the most egregious violators.

One last thing: if you think this site is permanently going downhill you are wrong. I've been working a full-time job the past 2 years and now I am in business school where I can focus about 30+ more hrs a week on the site with better resources. Yes, the site's quality:noise ratio has been moving in the wrong direction, but I can take measures to reverse that trend (many of which you suggested above). The difference is now I have a new dedicated web developer and now I have the time to implement the changes we all want.

I apologize to all of you out there but please know that improvement and change will be coming much faster and I am focused on keeping WSO useful to everyone. (Why I started a thread asking for suggestions a few weeks ago)

Please be patient, I will deliver. Patrick

tbroker:

... I thought to myself if anyone would join a WSO facebook group they would be representative of the more common user on this forum. I then saw that there were about 200 names on that list and I was convinced that this list would be 90% of those who frequent the site.

The conclusion that I am drawing to is a lot of good people are gone and the site's minimal popularity has opened the flood gates to kids trying to live a dream and planning for that dream 3-5 years ahead of time, which in my opinion is a little weird. Therefore, this site has moved from a resource from bankers to prospective bankers to something completely different.

tbroker, could it be possible that your initial assumptions were wrong? maybe the reason the Facebook group has such a high % of students on it is because the guy that helped me set it up was a college student and he promoted it at his school and a friend of his at another college. My point is, the Facebook group does not even come close to representing an accurate cross-section of WSO. out of the registered users, there are ~55% prospectives and 45% finance professionals. The problem is that recently there has been an increase in the repetitive posts and some uninformed giving out advice.

The fact is that the quality of posts have declined due to a higher percentage of active students, but we have had pockets of time like this in the past and I have successfully been able to turn it around then as well. I have listened to my users since the start of WSO and I will continue to do so. The site has grown but that should be a benefit with more active forums. I plan to be focusing on getting more finance professionals involved with more time on my hands, but I continue to welcome suggestions.

Does action need to be taken to remedy the situation? No doubt. This is exactly why I started a thread 2 weeks ago while I was on vacation asking for suggestions: //www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/call-for-suggestions

I am now back in the US and my #1 priority is to start implementing some of these suggestions immediately and reduce the noise in the process.

tbroker, in between your predictions for death to WSO, you said "I believe WSO has several savings graces and I would love to help if asked." Well I am now asking you for help. Can you give more specific suggestions to improve the site or does the list below capture them?

Right now I see the following as priorities:

1. Improve the Search Function

2. Create a new FAQ section that can be used as a Wiki so that it is constantly improving / evolving.

3. Recruit less students and more professionals to help improve quality discussions for Certified Users

4. Help bring out some of the more valuable content from the Archives through stickies and/or metatags

5. Increase moderation of the forums to ensure that the threads are in the appropriate forum and the question is not overly repetitive.

Some of these I can start immediately, others I will have to work with my web developer on, but I am sure that making these changes would help improve the current state of the site dramatically...and the ones that may take more than a few days we can start on immediately.

Any other users willing to become moderators to help me keep the forums on track? Please PM me.

Thanks, Patrick

A good way to combine the wiki & private forum ideas would be to have an everyone-viewable, certified-only-postable forum (hopefully 1x subforum for each of the current Industry Related forums).

Also, out of sheer curiosity, could you elaborate on how the permissions/access table on the forum (or on forums in general) works? How much of this site was written from scratch? I'm curious because I've never really thought about this issue before, since it seems most forums are handled by a vbulletin-style product where you just install and never worry about the details.

"How can you possibly distinguish who is and who isn't a FT Wall Streeter? "

verify off a work address.