Hey guys!
I am an MLE at a well known tech company. Happy with my team, pay, and project (think ChatGPT). Previously was a strat. Not really actively recruiting.
Last 5-6 weeks, I've been getting emails from all sorts of funds (including RenTech) asking for interviews in a few positions (QR, ML/Infra). From initial talks it seems like their MLE/Infra roles (engineering oriented), would actually pay more in the short term (7 digits) than typical quant research or trading roles there. Moreover, this seems consistent across other firms. GPU Infra and LLM investments are I guess pretty strong.
Before I start/bootstrap my own startup, I really want to maximize TC for a few years in the most straightforward way possible.
So my question is - if I join a top shop (prop or pod) right now (Rentech, TS, HRT, Citadel, Five Rings, PDT, Radix etc.), what can I expect from a pay progression POV in QR/QT/engineering roles at these places?
If they pay $400k base with TC being $750k or 1mm right now, what does that look like 2 years from now? Can QR/QT really make 7+ digit bonuses continuously here? Does it actually pay more than MLE/SWE? Because right now their engineering offers seem stronger, but unsure about the progression.
I really need a strong conviction to leave my post here and take time off my project to focus on interviews, but I cannot get a definitive answer.
Thanks.
Even if you work for OpenAI, at least some of the elite prop firms you mentioned will pay you more in cash. Statistics on performance and pay at these firms are essentially a secret.
A big reason for the secrecy is to avoid negative attention. People hate Ken Griffin because he tells people how much money he makes. Basically all the public knows about him is "rich guy that screws over retail traders." Why does he want you to know? It's because he wants to raise outside capital. But the only reason you have any idea of how rich he is is simply because forming a public image is how you raise outside money. Just think of the costs of this though. Who got hate about Wall Street bets and GME? Who did they make memes about? Do you even know who to hate at these other firms? Do you really think all of the other elite prop firms wouldn't want to trade against retail? You only know to hate Ken Griffin. He is the one the memes are all about. Why? Because he had a different business strategy - he wanted to raise outside money. The hate was probably great for business. He probably gets hard when he sees those memes.
It's a similar story with RenTech's Medallion. People think they are the best performing fund of all time. They are obviously impressive but this perception is probably not true - though I am sure they are like top 5 or so. It is like thinking the richest people in the world are the people on the Forbes list -- the people on that list are rich but a lot of rich people that are oligarchs or whatever just don't want to be on the list. The only reason why people think Medallion is somehow extra special is that they decided to tell people how well they did because they wanted to raise outside capital.
So long story short: you think OpenAI might pay better because you just don't have the information. This is because of bias in how you and others are getting your information. Take the interviews. If you are an LLM guy, your skills benefit from what is likely a temporary supply/demand imbalance that's going to benefit you for 5 years. Remember how machine learning used to be this genius thing that you had to be smart to do? Now it's a commodity. The attention from these firms that you have won't last forever and if I were you, I would take advantage of it.
If you think you are in demand now, wait till you are the only person who worked on whatever LLM stuff you did now but also worked at an elite prop fund. You can be the first one. There's a lot of upside to taking this career bet -- if you're that guy, maybe you start a fund with whatever it is happens next. (If you do that, just promise to remember me!) Or start a company that is LLMs for public markets (you might be a bit late to the game but tbh your competition rn is vaporware and Adam Neumann 2.0).
How are you doing man? What have you been up to recently? Any wisdom for the college aged monkeys on this site?
You've posted some of the most thought provoking material I've seen on WSO, would love to hear an update
Doing well! feel free to reply to one of my old posts or tag me in a thread if you have a specific question!
Not if recruiters exist or if you have friends. Lol.
Jokes aside, get chummy with some recruiters and you will hear all about the exodus and poaching at funds that have crashed or soared and the numbers involved. Sure sometimes it's bullsh1t but there often are decent amount of truths amongst them.
In my experience the comp ramp occurs in the years after you speak to a headhunter, so it's unclear why a headhunter would truly know. And also a lot of these firms recruit right out of school then people never leave, so the headhunter wouldn't know.
Which of if the firms OP mentioned have had an exodus that I can see via public LinkedIn data? I have not seen evidence to say it applies to where OP mentioned. TS does have lower total compensation than the other places and there is more people leaving to do random stuff, but in my observation people are not leaving place like RenTech, Jane Street, HRT, CitSec, Five Rings, etc to work at a tech company (which indirectly shows people's revealed preferences in a way that contradicts your claim).
Great post - just had one anecdote I wanted to pick on, but obviously not trying to detract from what you posted as I generally agree. I wanted to ask about your commentary on rentech here, because Jim is a very private person who eschews any publicity, and rentech is notoriously media averse and very tight lipped. Although maybe the cynic in me agrees that letting people know about Medallion's returns helped/helps for raising money for their less than stellar other funds. But from what I know about Jim and his attitude on publicity and being in the spotlight, he seems like the exact opposite of a Ken Griffin or Dalio etc. Jim didn't want the most recent book to come out and he only agreed at the very end to do a brief interview once he knew it was not preventable.
I'd also be incredibly shocked to hear that there was another fund that generates returns as strong as Medallion for as long as they have, because the law of compounding catches up to you so quickly when you are doing +50% to +60% gross per year that flying under the radar just doesn't seem possible to me? Medallion just pays out everything and is hard capped at $10bn (as we all know), but if it wasn't it would be in the high hundreds of billions of $$$. $100 invested in Medallion at the start of 1998 would have grown to $400mn by 2018. It also has a beta of -1. I'm feeling pretty safe to bet its the best performing fund of all time still.
Well I worked at one of the firms listed and I am fairly confident their annualized returns are similar to Medallion, though perhaps very slightly lower. They would still jokingly refer to Medallion as "God's model" in certain contexts, I guess kind of implying they understood what they had was superior. But their returns were very comparable is the point. I understand the point about compounding but that's why some of these places pay their employees so well - there's nowhere else for the money to go at some point so might as well I guess.
Thanks for the reply - interesting perspective! Will take some time to prep for the interviews and see how it goes.
At 750k to 1mm, you are better off staying an MLE/SWE imo. Most QR peers barely hit that in a good year and most years aren't good. There is definitely more opportunities for progression as QR/QT. They can take on subPM and PM roles that comes with bigger bonus pools. But if you are dead set on doing your own startup, that's not going to matter for you.
Thanks!
Yeah - I'd really switch if I know I'd make 2-3x year over year for like 3 years. That would make perfect sense and would immensely help me bootstrap certain ideas. But from a tech/startup POV - I don't think I'd learn or grow in the space of deep learning as much as in my current role, as there's no e2e decision making or trades being made with deep learning, basically would have to dial down on the complexity of problems.
My perspective is also that it would be interesting to build SOTA ML/AI infra at these places though, not just do QT/QR.
You mentioned 400k base and 750k or 1mm total -- that TC number is very aggressive for someone with no finance experience, but it's achievable if you have hot ML skills. But nobody pays a base that high. Your base will be around 250K.
You mentioned MLE/infra roles paying more than quant research or trading -- definitely true for the role you'd be offered (since you have no proven experience with finding trading signals). But even at the top shops, you'll plateau at "only" about a million a year (though with relatively little variance in good and bad years). Quant research and trading mean different things at different funds, but could go far higher, though with much more variance. But that requires a different set of skills (and a different temperament) that you may or may not have.
Yeah makes sense. It would probably take me 12-18mo to jump from a sim anyway, but I'm interested in what happens after for a year or two. I imagine the TC on the infra/eng side of things would be more front-loaded for my seniority/yoe.
Anyone being recruited for the level of TC you are is not being recruited for an "entry level" role. They are treating you as a "subject expert", those folks do not really ever see salary progression cause you are already getting the top comp of your industry and have zero risk that your TC will always be top of your industry. Over time you can leverage your importance to the firm for either better WLB or a move to a more "hybrid role" where your TC will no longer be limited.
QR/QT can pay limitless but also you will be treated totally different as you are on a different path (QR/QT can get fired).
To your last point " strong conviction to leave my post here", pretty sure they are offering you like 2x your TC now, if its not enough conviction tell them to offer you 3x but its always better to demand these things before you join.
It's about roughly the same TC I'm being offered (around 700), and where I am performance pays really well. Hence the post, and hence why I am interested in progression (because on tech end of things - saturation is high in very senior positions now).
And yeah - the industry expert positioning makes sense. The positions are mostly next to or under head of ML at most of these funds, or purely on a QR team.
However, I do have some friends at Cit in fundamentals, and 7 digit bonuses were no surprise last few years on a few pods. Unsure if it's the same on quant side of things though.
Quant side pays the same for anyone who directly creates "alpha" which a lot of QR teams would be considered part of. But again those jobs have salaries more in the $300-400k range with unlimited upside on bonuses. Tougher to say how they view the direct lead for ML for the whole firm sort of thing.
Gotcha on your current comp, did not know tech could have such performance driven roles and yah it is much more saturated which is why was confused on current comp and what they are offering. That said no one in tech is going to leave for the same TC to work at HF in ML so no one would be shocked if you requested a 30%-50% comp hike but to get higher payouts need to find a link to alpha.
As an example know someone who left tech ML 5 years ago (PhD, experienced etc...) went HF route mainly as a QR but has their own book at another firm but has been managing risk directly for 3 years now.
Pretty sure OP is a college student
I am about 10 years out, but I wish.
Corporis vitae velit non quis. Voluptas dolores quis dolor distinctio et maxime quibusdam aut. Voluptatem inventore ab est rerum tempore.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...