Follow up on my Last Diversity Post
Hi All. I recently made a thread (Which turned into a heated race war). That was originally intended to be a discussion on how we can improve diversity recruiting. I did not expect to get over 200 comments on it (~40 from one angry MAGA type person). I truly appreciate the attention that post got, but I just want to clarify a few things.
1.) I am very proud to be black. A few people seemed to think that i was crab in the barrel, who did not want black people to succeed. I am extremely proud to be black, and am in charge of several diversity initiatives at my school. It is my pride in my culture and heritage that made me want us as black people to be held to higher standards, and for us to do it ourselves. However, i understand that my last post may have come off as insensitive to what my African-American (Not complete African), brothers and sisters have been through, being torn from their homelands, and systematically discriminated against for decades. I know that there's a rift, and that Africans-Americans aren't very fond of Africans because they think that we're all from money in Africa and have access to the best resources. But I guarantee you, that some of us truly came to the United States with nothing. HOWEVER, see point #2.
2.) I did not make that post thinking i was completely right, and I myself wanted to learn and grow from the discussion. Which, I am glad to say that i did. While it is true that some of these diversity programs hold minorities to lower standards. It is also very true that a lot of white people in finance got in with sub par grades, due to family connections, money and being groomed from a very young age. For that reason, I do think it is fair to let in minorities with poor grades, who did not have access to those same resources, who will have no issue learning on the job.
3.) To wrap it up, what i learned from that last post is that, quite frankly, if you have the gut and determination to get into finance, you will. If you believe that a minority being given a chance to shine, or a daddy's boy with piss poor grades and connections is the reason you did not get into IB, you probably were never going to get in anyways.
I will probably get a lot of monkey shit for this. But i did learn from the discussion in my last post. So thank you guys. Apologies to any fellow minorities (or non minorities) that I might have offended.
Appreciate the comment on me being an angry MAGA person. Good to know being against racial discrimination = MAGA.
Nah, everybody else came at the discussion with reason and politely. But I could clearly tell there was something up your ass lol.
The people that accused you of being white and hating your own race were the polite ones? You really do have a serious inferiority complex.
Still confused how being against Affirmative Action = MAGA. I guess that’s that strong Nigerian reason and logic at work.
So I didn't go back and read all 40 comments but I skipped the first 4-5 of them and didn't see anything rude from Dukha . Since you're calling him out in the original post, is there an example of his rudeness on the prior thread?
Well you aren’t polite either. Labeling Dukha as “MAGA” is far from courteous tbh.
The entire premise of your stance is that because diversity initiatives exist black people are held to a lower standard than their non-minority peers when it comes to securing employment in finance. Simply put, this premise is misguided. Let me be clear, black people are held to a higher standard in every aspect when it comes to career advancement. The faster you understand this the less naive you'll seem. If you are black, I feel sorry for you. Sincerely hope you're a troll.
Lol if this is the case, why is there a gap in median GPA and SAT for undergrad admissions and college GPA and LSAT/GMAT/MCAT for law/bschool/med school admissions?
Scoring lower is the higher standard.
I feel like you should also quote high school and elementary schooling data for the same population.
Without going too in depth, there is data that proves systematic bias and, often times, discrimination in school districts with a black majority student population. It happens all over the country. It has been proven time and time again that black majority school districts have lesser quality schools, less paid teachers, less access to AP courses, less counseling, and so on.
All of that influences how you develop and, ultimately, how you preform on standardized tests such as the ACT, LSAT, etc.
You can be for or against affirmative action. But I think the whole purpose behind it is try and tackle the effects of the systematic bias against minority populations.
It isn’t as black and white (no pun intended) as saying that there is a gap in gpa and test scoring, hence black students have it easier than their non-minority counterparts when getting a job in finance.
There’s so many levels to this shit. It goes WAY beyond gpa. Look at wealth between classes and generations. What about that gap?
Your view is simplistic and your argument is shallow.
This post assumes because of affirmative action in college this means black people have equal outcomes following college in terms of job attainment and career advancement assuming similar qualifications to their non-minority counterparts. There have been extensive studies that show this isn't the case. But cool story?
Bob how the fuck is that premise misguided? All data suggests otherwise.
Show me the data that shows black ppl in advanced career positions are less qualified than their white counterparts.
Ah yes making a feel good statement without any sort of evidence to back it up...
https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes-get-more-i…
"African American and Asian job applicants who mask their race on resumes seem to have better success getting job interviews, according to research by Katherine DeCelles and colleagues."
Lol. Keep pushing this "white ppl have it so hard" narrative though.
That study has been debunked countless times and other studies have shown the opposite results.
To begin with, the job in question was a customer service job for people with no skills. Not in any way related to FO finance. Second, Asians were the least frequently chosen of all groups, which contradicts your narrative that blacks face unique bias. If Asians have it worse in your study, how are they the most over represented in all areas?
More importantly, the researchers intentionally used “white” names that signaled high status (Hunter, Edward, etc.) and used “black” names that signaled low status (ie LaQuisha, Darrius, etc.). When you pick more neutral names or flip signaling of the names (ie Cody, Tyler for white names and Terrell or Jerome for black names) the result is the opposite.
More importantly, why the hell are you using this study when we can just look at actual data of applicants to schools in question?
Show where the study was debunked - let's start there. Then we can expand this conversation. Trust, there are more studies. If you're married to the idea that white males have it harder than their black counterparts as far as jobs then I think you have a.) an agenda or b.) are ignorant. But we can do this if you want.
another study: https://www.epi.org/publication/black-unemployment-educational-attainme…
"Over the last 12 months, the average unemployment rate for black college graduates has been 4.1 percent—nearly two times the average unemployment rate for white college graduates (2.4 percent) and equivalent to the unemployment rate of whites with an associate’s degree or who have not completed college (4.0 percent)"
And what did those people major in? Did they major in finance and CS or did they major in African Civ?
You haven’t engaged with a single study or piece of data I’ve provided, so I’m not going to go down the rabbit hole of debunking every random non-sequitor and red herring you make. If you want to argue that Sharkeisha May have trouble for entry level customer service jobs due to her name, I’m not going to bother engaging with it.
I'm not sure what career focused studies you mean. And you think the disparity in major/gpa is enough to account for an employment rate TWICE as high as whites? And an unemployment rate equal to Whites with just a HS degree. Lol. You're married to your narrative.
Are you going to provide the data or no? It is easy to talk shit without providing any evidence.
And “twice the rate” is 1 more person out of 50 being unemployed. Yeah, I want to know what they are majoring in before I immediately say that person being unemployed is due to racism. Weird you didn’t provide the data for Asians, just whites. Strange huh?
Lol this is ridiculous. You keep asking for evidence. I provide studies. You ask for granularity that can't possibly be provided while accusing me of "talking shit" and providing no evidence to back your points. Fuck off.
The study you provided literally contradicts your own arguments. You should read it instead of relying on articles telling you what to think about it.
The study showed Asians having the lowest rate of call backs, yet they have the highest median income in the US and are the most over represented group in higher education and elite jobs. The result is that the study is irrelevant to anything we are talking about given this disparity.
You haven’t actually provided data related to anything we are talking about. The study is on customer service roles that don’t even require a high school education and the names used are comically stereotypical designed to elicit the greatest disparity in call backs. Again, if you actually read it, you might see that.
Asians face their own versions of discrimination and are also held to a higher standard in corporate America than whites. Blacks as well. I don't want to keep doing this. You haven't provided a single career related data point that disputed what I'm saying. No one was arguing that Asians have it easier than whites. I think all minorities have it harder than whites. Period. You can lie to yourself and keep opining about the white struggle and that's fine. But I won't continue to engage with that lie. Absolutely nothing indicates it. For getting into Harvard, sure white have it harder than blacks. But what about after college? Where $ and promotions are actually earned. Almost everything points to whites having it easiest in that respect. But you believe the black man has it easier in America. It's a joke. I'd pull up more studies but you'll just disregard them because you honestly don't care about facts. You have your agenda. And I provided a study about overall employment not just the customer service one you've myopically zeroed in on so stop.
You literally destroyed your own argument lol. When has an Asian EVER been given diversity privileges? In fact they are held to an objectively higher standard than whites? You've shown that diversity programs are essentially racist and don't help all who need it.
Asians were eligible for SEO (the premier diversity program for Wall Street) until very recently. Asian women still are eligible for the program along with practically every other diversity program targeting women. So your statement is objectively incorrect.
I never said Asians get diversity benefits. In fact, I think for the educational achievements Asians have gained, they should occupy more boardrooms and have more CEO seats. I wonder why they don't.
You know cause the black sophomore intern took the spot on board room from the Asian 50 yo
Get rid of diversity programs based on arbitrary skin color and make it more merit based. That's how it will happen.
Women who are Asian are given diversity privileges due to their female status...
Can we ban this guy mods? I mean seriously, creating an ENTIRELY NEW THREAD just to start racial arguments and go after a person in particular?
Dude political discourse is the one thing that this country is lacking and needs.
This is an investment banking forum.
Statement 2 shows you clearly didn’t read the comments in the last discussion and arbitrarily called out Dukha for no good reason
You clearly are defining minority to be Black. What about Egyptians , Armenians , poor Asians , etc. What about disabled people ? What type of poor background did an LGBT person come from? Don’t you realize mostly rich African kids fill up the diversity spots? These spots are got through connections and networking, HR rarely even looks at online portals to even give the slum kid a chance. Also what about middle class white kids? They weren’t born in a bed of money and don’t have MDs showering them in. I can tell you from a nontarget that only the cream of the crop break into IBD (MM/BB).
Hey Future,
Hope you are doing well. If you read my last post i do address the fact that some white people are thrown to the side without connections or wealth and i don't think it's fair. I also clarify that by minorities i don't just mean black people. However, I do think it was wrong of me to call out Dukha, he just seems a little too obsessed with this whole thing. 60 comment's is quite excessive, especially after telling me i have "nigerian logic" without even knowing where i was from.
Your last post was now unavailable now that your username has change for the third time to afro. Think all this could use some context. Your original Post Below. If it helps, I walked away woke.
Houston Investment Banking - Why Are 99% Of The People White...Where Is The Diversity? It's Concerning, And Seems Deliberate.
1) Houston Named The Most Diverse City In The U.S. In Recent Survey 2) Houston ranks as the No. 6 best city for diversity in STEM
I am an URM, and I grew up in Houston. My city is very, very diverse. I've never encountered diversity, or race issues my entire life in this city, until recruiting for Investment Banking in the city. I'm a firm believer that there is strength in diversity, and that firms can really only succeed if they elevate those who come from diverse backgrounds. Let me be very clear when I say this: There is nothing that a white person can do better than any person of color, AND vice versa. I'm sorry, the thought that the color of one's skin makes someone a better banker is objectively not true, and I want to outright state that. Also, many of the folks I've met are downright socially awkward, condescending, fratty, drop F-bombs left and right, and generally don't seem like well rounded people. BUT...they are white, and they have the job. Like only 2 or 3 banks had emotionally intelligent people, that passed MY airport test. Luckily I'll be heading to a different city to work IB, but this was a memorably horrible experience.
I met with 16 banks, and well over 100 people. 99% of them are white. I've met 2 URM, 3 women, and probably 120 white guys. This is a clear aberration from the makeup of local universities, local organizations, local schools, local neighborhoods, and just my city as a whole.
A few months back I interviewed with many banks, got to the final rounds of many of them, and every MD on my superdays was a white guy. Maybe 99% white MD's, and a 2-3 minority MD's. I struck out on all the superdays where everyone was white, and the job went to a 6' tall white guy who looks like your local Chad. Where is the dang diversity? Stop hiring your buddies, or people who look like you. Barclays was probably the worst in my opinion - every single person was the whitest of white, and it was so uncomfortable. At least some of the other banks had one person that wasn't white. To the folks in Houston, make a serious effort to include women, Hispanics, African-Americans, Arabs, Asians, and non-white persons in your process. I'm sorry that my name isn't Ryan, or Jim, or Bob, or Drew. I can't relate to the fact that you went to a private school or that I don't golf. Why are these even measures of fit? I'm grateful that I landed at a good spot in New York, where the diversity is amazing. New York does not have this issue....seriously it was wonderful meeting with colored MD's.
I was very concerned about this a few months back. I took a deep introspective look at my ability to interview, how I come off in person, and my general people skills. I work very hard on that front, and objectively, per my performance with getting other competitive jobs, I'm pretty certain that's not the issue. I turned down a big 3 consulting offer, so I hope that helps y'all before you accuse me of being weird...
So WSO, tell me why Houston has a diversity problem in IB? Is it fixable? Why aren't you in the space hiring more folks who don't look like you, and have names different than yours? At a happy hour with one of the banks they started verbally taking a big dump on the democratic party, Elizabeth Warren, and put me on the spot to answer how I felt about it. This is completely unprofessional. Also, pro tip: 18-34 year olds lean blue, and our city is very, very blue. IDC about your politics, treat each of your candidates like a human being, and fight your subconscious biases. Not all of us went to prep school, not all of us had daddy money to fund private universities, and not all of us worship the GOP, or Reaganomics. Be objective.
This was a serious issue for me, and I'm just getting around to talking about it. What gives?
Statement 3 is ridiculous . If you’ve been on WSO any length of time there are plenty of kids who work hard and get good grades and still don’t break into to the top firms . I assume by breaking into finance you mean something other than being the BAML janitor which then makes your statement wildly inaccurate and pretentious .
Topic aside and intentional or not, wow, this thread was a very effective stoking to a fire I thought was out
Some people will keep arguing about test scores to make life even and we know it can be gamed by a paid consultant who will hire someone to take it for your kid and also get you a swimming scholarship. Regardless, read this for the weekend to understand what people actually had to go through and look around your analyst class to MDs to know it got some way to go. And it’s not just corporate but military and every walk of life. https://www.wsj.com/articles/bud-ward-helped-marriott-make-minority-emp…
Are you mentally retarded? What does any of that have to do with wealthy Nigerians getting spots due to Affirmative Action?
Is your claim really that test scores don’t matter? If that is the case, why should they matter for any race? What have standards for admission at all? And more importantly, if grades and GPA don’t matter, why the hell aren’t we admitting native blacks rather than wealthy Africans
Seems like you are slowly revealing the source of your frustration - the Nigerians! Interestingly, a quick google search shows that they are one of the most successful (income, corporate America and education) ethnic groups in the US, and yes inclusive of white immigrants.
In any case, sorry to hear that a Nigerian was selected over you for whatever - you will be okay.
"Systemic racism doesn't exist."
Says bankers who don't have any black employees at their entire firms, and/or never had a class with a black person in their entire life (...I'm sorry....there was that "one").
People will justify what helps them sleep at night. I hope this thread is proof of that. Diversity is not a white people issue. Trees and the environment are more important to the "majority". You can't fault someone who is born seeing blue for not seeing red--you must only learn to deal with it AfroMonkey
You are not a smart person. Are you complaining about the lack of diversity in the NBA?
Emotions and feels are more important than stats and skills I guess
I may not seem smart to you, but your are proving my point Dukha . There are systems that funnel kids to prioritize sports over studying. There are also systems that prioritize kids becoming investment bankers, doctors, etc.
Ivy League schools are feeders into finance, just as SEC schools are feeders into football. This is proof of systems and networks. It would serve you to google Jim Crowe laws, redlining, and mass incarceration. These were also systems, specifically based on skin color. Black people, aka Americans, were not allowed to vote until 1965; that means they could literally not elect people to serve their interest and fight these systems. This puts them at a disadvantage economically, and thus reduces their opportunities for economic upward mobility. This also means worse education and thus, less opportunities.
I don't fault you for believing whatever it is you believe. But there were indeed legal mandates to put black people at a disadvantage. That's just the truth. To say that that has no affect today is pretty naive.
Ok. I've been reading these threads for a while, refraining from putting in any input, but I will. These two threads have opened my eyes to the amount of animosity there is toward providing black and hispanic students with an equal opportunity. Similar to OP, I'm also a black student that will be joining a BB come full-time from a non-target. (Spent my freshman summer at a Big4, did all the diversity recruiting programs, 2 summers with SEO, my sophomore summer at a top 3 BB, and my junior summer at a top group in a top 3 BB. The whole 9 yards.)
This idea that all diversity candidates are some how unqualified simply because we're black/hispanic is fucking appalling and actually infuriating, but it wouldn't be the first time I've heard this, either directly or indirectly. The overwhelming majority of my friends have similar paths to me, and we've all been absolutely grinding since freshman year for the little bit of academic and professional success that we've had. The idea that the majority of diversity (black) students on the street are all somehow rich Nigerians and Ghanians is just stupid. That is not the case. The overwhelming majority of us are normal kids who come from (immigrant) parents, who just like yours, have sacrificed so much for us to be in the positions that we are in. Some are more financially fortunate than others, some come from low income areas, some (like myself) we're raised lower middle class and were fortunate to get a scholarship for private/boarding school, which by the way, opened doors I could never have imagined were possible, while others come from more affluent backgrounds. Some of these comments just reek of "woe is me, the white man in America. We have it so much harder" (referring specifically to FO SA/FT recruiting). Like really? have you looked at a trading floor? Any Ib bull pen? Have you looked at the investment associate profile page of any MM or UMM PE Shop. I can maybe count 3 that have 1 black or hispanic associate. Many, NOT ALL, white students have inherent privileges that are afforded to them through social dynamics. Being able to easily assimilate to corporate America, even having the benefit of the doubt, etc. Do you know what its like being the only black/hispanic intern or person, in your group, in your pod, or on your floor, hoping not make a single mistake because you know the second YOU make a mistake the subconscious (or conscious) reaction is, "Why don't you know that. You should know that. You diversity hires are unqualified. You diversity hires don't deserve to be here. You SEO kids are taking up spots." Where as the UVA lax kid "is still learning. He has the right attitude. It's the effort that matters, he'll get It eventually." (and I understand that this is a very first world problem. Life could be worse, but we're talking within the confines of our social circles/opportunities here.) There also seems to be this idea that interviews for diversity students are light years less rigorous. I've interviewed at 4 BB's, 1 EB, and 1 MF PE, and have yet to waltz in and out of an interview getting only the $10 depreciation technical. Please stop purporting this idea that our interviews are some how cakewalks. Aside from this thread, this site also has so much hate for SEO/MLT. Ppl who have no idea about these programs have the most to say. In SEO we spend 7 days, 12hrs per day, prior to our internship refining our modeling skills, listening to senior speakers, attending workshops etc, and we spend the final afternoon discussing what this SA/FT opportunity means to us. We don't sit around with our dick in our hands throwing a pity party.
I hope this post clarified some things. maybe it didn't. In the end I'd say, to both OP and other students, to focus on yourself. Stop worrying about what other people are doing and do everything you can to maximize your own opportunities. Very few ppl are waltzing into these highly competitive jobs with out effort, especially diversity students. And If you genuinely believe that black/hispanic students in IBD/S&T are intellectually incapable at performing at the same or better level than white counterparts, then I think you have a much larger and deeper routed personal issue that is unrelated to finance.
Not one person in either thread said that somebody is inferior by virtue of being black or Hispanic. Work on your reading comprehension, go back and re-read the comments, and then digest what is being said. People have said that, on average, those students are less qualified by virtue of being held to lower standards throughout the entire process. Do you think that the GPA/SAT/ACT/etc. requirements and standards are identical for URMs and Asian/white guys on average?
It is interesting that you mentioned you are the child of an immigrant family. Do you think Affirmative Action was intended to benefit people who aren’t the descendants of American slavery and who weren’t around during Jim Crow? On what moral basis do you deserve a leg up based on race in college admissions and seeking a job?
Look at your post. It reeks of insane arrogance and privilege rarely seen.
You went to a boarding school on scholarship due to race.
Benefitting from Affirmative Action for college admissions.
Received free and advanced training and preparation through MLT and related programs by virtue of your race.
Do you think the average white or Asian analyst, from a non-target, received even 1/10th of this leg up through connections? Most Asian and whites kids didn’t play D1 sports and don’t have a dad in PE. It happens, but it is not the norm and those candidates, on average, still have higher GPAs and test scores.
If you did any cursory research, you'd know scholarships for boarding school are based on financial need--not race--but leave it to you to assume the latter. There's white kids on scholarship at boarding schools as well.
Well said.
Look I've been at the other side of the table for these interviews - the truth is they ARE easier and the bar is lower but it's not cakewalk either; you absolutely have to be solid. But an asian/white kid (without connections) probably has to be even better than you to break in - this is fact.
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You're clearly frustrated with the IB recruiting process. It sucks, and everyone on this forum is eager to be a resource you because they were in your shoes at some point, and want others to struggle less than they did.
Rather than asking for their career advice, or even trying to make your point intelligently, I'm just as eager to give advice anyways. Your definitely not an idiot, and definitely banker material suffering in todaysMAGA world.
Do a search on LinkedIn. Click on people. Search Investment Banking. Filter it to Houston only. Of the first 20 results, 20% were women. 35% were minorities. Also. not a single one was named, " Ryan, Jim, Bob, or Drew". You're ability to perform due diligence clearly wasn't the issue.
You interviewed with 16 banks, over 100 people, and made many final rounds. Thats great, and according to your numbers, you're in the top 1% of people seeking an IB role. So 16 banks and over 100 people ("99% white"), made the effort to interview you, a diverse candidate, for the most competitive field out of undergrad. Your take away is that they are not making the effort to include non-whites in the process, and recommend they actually treat you like human being. ** I can tell you have strong problem solving and an analytical skillset, again that's not it.**
You're uncomfortable('so uncomfortable") when, "every single person was the whitest of white" within eyesight, and they are "downright socially awkward, condescending, fratty, drop F-bombs left and right, and generally don't seem like well rounded people. BUT...they are white, and they have the job. Like only 2 or 3 banks had emotionally intelligent people, that passed MY airport test." You clearly have a sense of humility, and seem like you would love to be stuck in an airport with us, pass the test in my firms mein kampf book as someone who would fit right in at the office.
You're a well rounded person who fight racism. +1. "treat each of your candidates like a human being, and fight your subconscious biases' That's a great point, going to private school, having daddy money to fund our every need, and all our time spent playing golf, worshipping the GOP and Reaganonomics doesn't give us the time to think like you. ** Its rare to see this kind of intellectual honesty, and you certainly check the box as a candidate that would never make the same mistake twice.**
Can someone please hire this man, and better yet, put him up on a stage with Greta Thunberg, or even better yet, Elizabeth Warren, the champion of diverse admissions to share this story. Except the bank that has internet, and knows Pocahontas calls bankers and PE the the stain on society, you're unprofessional, you need not get in line.
Also, Ryan, Jim, Bob, or Drew, you're out of luck. That goes for you too, 6 foot chad, fuck off.
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