stop the censorship, here is my push for objective moderation of these boards

the following discussion resulted from the deletion of 2 threads (see appendix)

When you personally manipulate selective threads in accordance to your "rules" yet fail to extend such regulation across the board, you are simply indulging yourself and by doing so you undermine the integrity of a public board and dillute the quality of its contents. A public forum should be first and foremost self regulating in this day and age of the internet and its from those roots that spawned WSO as it is today.

What you are doing is inherently wrong, short sighted, and manipulative. It's one thing to set rules and enforce them but its another to selectively dabble with your toy and I'm sure Patrick would not be pleased. The users of this site are what makes it great and you seem to forget this with your abusive censorship.

You complain about elitism. this is a WALL STREET forum and echos the sentiment of WALL STREET. the elitism on this thread mirrors that of the street so seriously stop peeing into the wind.

Seeing as there is absolutely nothing wrong or inappropriate with any of this discussion, i am posting it for public scrutiny. seriously, if you want to make this site better, start by getting rid of the CRAP/trolls (ie untitled123, ChicagoRules) instead of stuff you personally disagree with.

trade4size:

Im a mod. Look honestly the only reason I really post on here is to provide a different perpesctive to our users that dont fit the normal mold. My posts are not designed to intentionally create controversy but rather to ask important questions about why people make certain choices. I feel as though wso is obsessed with elitism and this elitism is preventing other people from viewing/contributing the site. I have a financial interest in this site performing well thus I try to break down the elitism barrier that sometimes exists by posting content that is unique. There are many users that refrain from posting or even stop visiting altogether because of the mold that wso has become. I want this site to grow.

x13:

well I am truly glad that people share your sentiments. If you indeed received such unanimous private support, why not post the responses so we can get a balanced viewpoint? oh and w/that regard, how do you delete your own threads? I don't see that option

trade4size:

It was pointless and turned a legit question into an attack on me. I actually got a several PMs from people saying they appreciate the post and can relate to the perspective I am coming from.

APPENDIX

what happened to this thread? it says ACCESS DENIED
by x13 (Senior Baboon, 201 Points) on 7/23/08 at 11:11am I-Banking Bullpen Why the allure to bigger/more prestigious funds/banks
by trade4size (Senior Orangutan, 473 Points) on 7/22/08 at 9:51pm Traders Train So anyone has read my posts know I am a outlier for the typical wso user. Despite spending months on this site I have not really changed my overall outlook and "conformed" so to speak. My question is why the users here are mostly interested in the bigger/more prestigious hedge funds and BB.

I realize that the superstars at these places have the potential to make 8 figures a year but these are so few and far between. Outside of this why is the big allure. No one says they want to go work at a small hedge fund, everyone wants to work at the big ones (citadel, deshaw, rentech, SAC etc).

To me the ideal situation is a job that you enjoy, allows you to live a great lifestyle, provides you with some sense of security, and surrounded by people you like to bounce ideas off. With this being said I guess for me the feeling is at a smaller place they are tighter knit and you dont just become another cog in the giant machine.

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A lot of bankers and
by hiit (Senior Chimp, 22 Points) on 7/22/08 at 10:11pm
A lot of bankers and wanna-be bankers want to be the best (whether they have the ability or not is a different story). A bigger name firm means you have more options. Going to grad school? A big name like Goldman Sachs, Blackstone, McKinsey, Bain only makes your case stronger. A no-name firm, even though it might pay just as much or even more, might not help too much. But, I do get what you're saying. If you're only in it to make money, after you make a certain amount, you really don't give a damn where you're working. But, not everyone is in it for the money. They just have personalities that seek to be the best, most prestigious, whatever.

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I am also curious about this
by tomahawk518 (Chimp, 3 Points) on 7/22/08 at 10:13pm
I am also curious about this one.

I think a place like Houlihan Lokey would provide someone with a much better environment than the super-competitive Goldman Sachs, for example. HL has significantly better hours, more or less equal pay schemes if you're not a a director, and a much more cooperative community. GS, of course, has a better name.

I am not yet in the industry, however.

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Your Question
by alabinjo (Senior Monkey, 75 Points) on 7/22/08 at 10:43pm
Your question is like asking why do people buy expensive cars when they can save their money by buying a cheap care that will still take you from point A to Z.

It's all about what type of person you are. Most bankers are type A personalties and naturally strive for the best.

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People keep saying most
by dazedmonk (Senior Monkey, 97 Points) on 7/22/08 at 10:49pm
People keep saying most bankers are type "A". A=alpha, ambitious, aggresivee. I just don't see it at all where i'm interning. Most bankers actually come off to me as pretty risk averse and even...timid?

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Prestige usually equals
by Warhawk_1 (Orangutan, 325 Points) on 7/22/08 at 10:50pm
Prestige usually equals money. That's bc money(deal-volume, bonuses paid, etc.) on average is what makes a firm "prestigious" in the first place. Prestige is a side-effect of what the firm has done. And past performance tends to be an indicator of future performance.

Besides, what is "enough" money? Some people have a limit, some don't. A lot of people I think just resize their limit as they get close to it perpetually.

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This question is for traders
by trade4size (Senior Orangutan, 473 Points) on 7/22/08 at 10:51pm
This question is for traders not bankers. I totally disagree with the car analogy because you can easily make roughly the same amount of money at a smaller shop. A good trader at a small hedge fund can still make a couple million a year. So granted they might not be able to make 30mm a year but odds are even if your at a bigger place your not going to make that much anyway. In trading afterall its all about your PnL, if you generate 10mm in revenue at a smaller shop and you generate 10mm at a larger shop its still the same thing. Your limitations are likely to be much more stringent at a larger shop though. I see myself as a trading lifer.

"Oh - the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion?"

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btw size, why do you have to
by dazedmonk (Senior Monkey, 97 Points) on 7/22/08 at 10:52pm
btw size, why do you have to make another one of these "i'm so different from you guys" and think i'm much wiser threads every other day. i think we get it by now.

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Why is the allure of
by DiPietro (Baboon, 141 Points) on 7/22/08 at 11:02pm
Why is the allure of prestige always too much for me to ever ignore?

I gotta thing for them big body Benzes, it dulls my senses
In love with a V-Dub engine
Man I'm high off life, fuck it I'm wasted
Bathing Ape kicks, Audemars Piguet wrists
My women friend get tennis bracelets
Trips to Venice, get they winters replaced with
the sun, it ain't even fun no more I'm jaded
Man, it's just a game, I just play it to play it

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trade4size
by DiPietro (Baboon, 141 Points) on 7/22/08 at 11:08pm
dazedmonk wrote:
btw size, why do you have to make another one of these "i'm so different from you guys" and think i'm much wiser threads every other day. i think we get it by now.

Making a show of your nonconformity stirs up resentment and ill-will in others, so its good thing this forum is anonymous. In real life though you may want to try keeping your "unique" opinions to yourself and throwing your hat in with the Goldman boys.

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For the record im not saying
by trade4size (Senior Orangutan, 473 Points) on 7/22/08 at 11:19pm
For the record im not saying there is anything wrong with wanting to work at these places at all. I have respect for everyone that works at these places because I know my resume wouldnt even make it past the security guard at the front door.

Suppose for a moment that this is a tech oriented forum, naturally everyone would want to work at Google and Apple, its almost human nature and for me something is just not computing.

Baseball players all want to play for the Yankees. My question is, if pay is not a factor then what is. At a smaller place I just see it as someone that can make a larger more noticable contribution rather than being a cog in the great big machine.

"Oh - the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion?"

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?
by ideating (Senior Gorilla, 949 Points) on 7/22/08 at 11:28pm
trade4size wrote:
This question is for traders not bankers. I totally disagree with the car analogy because you can easily make roughly the same amount of money at a smaller shop. A good trader at a small hedge fund can still make a couple million a year. So granted they might not be able to make 30mm a year but odds are even if your at a bigger place your not going to make that much anyway. In trading afterall its all about your PnL, if you generate 10mm in revenue at a smaller shop and you generate 10mm at a larger shop its still the same thing. Your limitations are likely to be much more stringent at a larger shop though. I see myself as a trading lifer.

"Oh - the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion?"

The type of person who beats out his HS classmates to get into a good college, beats out his college classmates to get onto Wall Street, and beats out his colleagues for a job on the buy side isn't going to be satisfied with just a couple million when there is the possibility to make multiples.

Trade4size, don't know if I remember the details right but getting a shitty GPA at a non-target and interning at a MM tells the story more that the big firms didn't want you rather than you didn't want the big firms. Don't mean to attack you but if you are going to talk about "bucking the trend" etc. when you have done very little so far... not a flattering picture.

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ideating
by trade4size (Senior Orangutan, 473 Points) on 7/22/08 at 11:45pm
I respect your answer and I think thats about as well put as you can make it.

There really is not question about the bigger firms not wanting me. As I said my resume wouldnt make it past the security guard. At the same time I try to serve as a model to those out there that didnt get the greatest grades, that didnt go to the greatest school, that didnt get the best internship. This does not mean that you any less of a person than those with better grades, at a better school, and at a more pretigious person.

When I started my internship i was literally embarassed to say what school I went to after what I have heard on WSO. Then i realized that they did not care that I didnt go to a great school and have a great team rather they accepted me for the effort I put forth and work I produced.

There is a great number of people out there that are looking for ways to break into this business and are willing to do whatever it takes. They feel that if they dont get into a BB for a SA that their life is over and they are doomed for the back office for the rest of their life.

The WSO audience is bigger than you know, we average over 40k unique pageviews a month. That means 40k different sets of eyeballs read this site. The top 5% at best one this site goes to a target, had the right gpa, got a bb internship, got bb ft offer. Im out there to show the other 95% that its possible to make your dreams come true even if you screwed up in school. You are not doomed for life for decisions you made between the ages of 14 and 21.

"Oh - the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion?"

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Well from just a pure
by Warhawk_1 (Orangutan, 325 Points) on 7/23/08 at 1:05am
Well from just a pure trading perspective, it's more of a toss-up; that said, it's the same a reason a lot of people prefer to work at a BB or big hedge fund instead of prop shops, the firm brand, size, and connections does add something to your flexibility if something happens(like a layoff in these times)

Take it from my friend who's interning from a small hedge fund started by ex-Goldman/Tiger guys, there's a huge question of risk at starting out your career. If the hedge fund fails even despite its managers, he's the one who gets screwed if he doesn't get a chance to run his own book at some point before it happens, or to at least have the "brand-value" that can get him hired as a trader elsewhere.

In addition, trading is not as completely individual-driven as people would like to argue. A trader at an established firm like Glencore is going to have better access in sourcing trades, data access, exploitation of "partners", etc. The infrastructure that can be provided by an organization can be incredibly important and helpful in P&L generation.

I'm not saying that it's not a good idea to pick a smaller organization for the chance to make a greater impact; I also know of people who just did TA on their own, started accumulating third-party capital and have their own hedge funds in the ~$100 MM AUM range now. I just think that it depends about the level of risk you may or may not be taking under certain individual conditions.

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...
by Mr.Green (Senior Baboon, 180 Points) on 7/23/08 at 1:25am
trade4size wrote:
When I started my internship i was literally embarassed to say what school I went to after what I have heard on WSO. Then i realized that they did not care that I didnt go to a great school and have a great team rather they accepted me for the effort I put forth and work I produced.

Yeah man, this site puts a lot of doubt in non targets minds, and its all bull shit. Let face the facts here: I come from a 'non target', and I know DOZENS of alumni in banking, from MDs at GS, to analysts at BofA. I have probably 15 friends completing internships in banking, S&T, research, etc. this summer, from GS, MS, Citi, Lazard, BofA, etc.

I myself have had 3 final round interviews at MM banks in the past few weeks, even with the current market and not being during the normal recruiting season. And the kicker that will shock/ piss off most posters here: I have a 3.1 from my non target (granted I was a premed for 2 years, and ended up with a 3.8 in business), I still get final rounds at banks for M&A.

The truth is everyone in this industry loves to think it is so prestigious, and it is for the most part, but the GPA and school status talk on this website is on the verge of being ridiculous. Its about who you know, nothing else.

Finally, just go to Facebook and look at all the ‘fans’ of WSO, and notice that most are not from targets... Yes, there are quite a few, but most are not. That is why I now take everything that is posted on this site with a grain of salt. Stop worrying what some no name is saying behind their keyboard and do what you want to do. Be proud about your background and fuck those who look down upon you.

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Fine, great, good - you went
by ideating (Senior Gorilla, 949 Points) on 7/23/08 at 6:07am
Fine, great, good - you went to a non-target and got into trading. But that's not what the point of the thread is about. As a relatively impartial observer, I read your post and it struck me as someone who has barely begun their career and is getting way ahead of themselves. The surface question of why "big vs. small" seemed blatantly transparent; if it REALLY was the question you wanted to know the answer to... well, sorry I guess.

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this thread just reeks of
by x13 (Senior Baboon, 200 Points) on 7/23/08 at 9:42am
this thread just reeks of inferiority complex as do most of your threads trade4size, no offense. this post is of the same vein of your "what makes a good trader". stop trying to justify urself because not only are the answers to such questions exactly what u dont want to hear, its all quite obvious. like ideating said, your argument has no gravity when you lacked choice in your ultimate decision. and fyi i work for a MM bank as well

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HLHZ
by welldawg08 (Chimp, 8 Points) on 7/23/08 at 10:01am
tomahawk518 wrote:
I am also curious about this one.

I think a place like Houlihan Lokey would provide someone with a much better environment than the super-competitive Goldman Sachs, for example. HL has significantly better hours, more or less equal pay schemes if you're not a a director, and a much more cooperative community. GS, of course, has a better name.

I am not yet in the industry, however.

I disagree with the pay portion of this statement. HLHZ pays lower than the Street, I know from first hand experience. Keep in mind this wasn't just me either. My fellow analysts and I had a very serious discussion about this quickly after bonus time. Trust me, nothing feels more like bending over and taking it from behind than when you learn BMO Capital Market analysts get paid more bonus than HLHZ analysts.

On another note, a famous HLHZ story is back about 10 years ago a group of analysts went to an MD and asked for better pay/working hours/etc. They all were immediately fired on the spot.

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This thread really has
by trade4size (Senior Orangutan, 473 Points) on 7/23/08 at 10:10am
This thread really has nothing to do with me or my choices. Im posing a question as to what influences others to make a certain decision. On the what makes a good trader thread I again was asking what makes a good trader. Going to a target and working at a bb doesnt mean your a good trader. He gave an assanine response so i ripped into him. Warhawk brings up infrastructure, which i think is a big point and clearly a reason to want to be at a larger place simply because they put you in a better position by giving you the resources necessary to succeed.

"Oh - the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion?"

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Firstly, you have to
by indian-banker (Senior Baboon, 213 Points) on 7/23/08 at 10:18am
Firstly, you have to understand that most people do end up going to smaller funds or firms eventually. I think this is the case in private equity too where an associate will find it very hard to get promoted to principal at a big firms because senior people in the big buy-side firms just don't move on. So what do the associates do? They go to smaller firms and get promoted. Secondly, you have an opportunity to learn a lot more at big firms. I work on a commodities structuring desk at a BB and I've met so many people from other desks and I've procured a good deal of knowledge about those products. Small hedge funds tend to be more specialized. Life gets interesting only when you experience more things. Working at a small fund would compel you to understand only what your seniors want you to understand. two years down the line, I would definitely want to move to a small fund and the reason for that is exactly what you stated; a better life.

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Indian banker adds
by trade4size (Senior Orangutan, 473 Points) on 7/23/08 at 10:25am
Indian banker adds value.

"Oh - the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion?"

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puhlease
new
by x13 (Senior Baboon, 200 Points) on 7/23/08 at 10:41am
well unfortunately there is such a thing as an absolutely retarded question. what's your next thread going to be, "what compels people to attend target schools?". give me a break.

trade4size wrote:
This thread really has nothing to do with me or my choices. Im posing a question as to what influences others to make a certain decision. On the what makes a good trader thread I again was asking what makes a good trader. Going to a target and working at a bb doesnt mean your a good trader. He gave an assanine response so i ripped into him. Warhawk brings up infrastructure, which i think is a big point and clearly a reason to want to be at a larger place simply because they put you in a better position by giving you the resources necessary to succeed.

"Oh - the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion?"

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PWNED ------ "its the
by EE (Baboon, 169 Points) on 7/23/08 at 11:14am
PWNED

"its the running joke now, we now have fair trade with china so they send us poisoned sea food and we send them fraudulent securities."