Hey Guys and Gals,
I hope you can help me with something that's confusing the shit out of me. Advice from new-college-goers would be welcome.
The US college system is probably the best system for him considering he isn't sure of his major. In the UK, you apply directly to a major through a centralised system which all colleges use. You also apply for colleges at the start of your final year of A Levels and colleges use your predicted grades (what your teachers put on your application form) as a means of assessing whether you get an offer or not.
Between getting my ass beat at work and getting my ass beat at work, I've googled whatever I can. I also called an admissions consultant but midway through, what I can only guess was his wife storming into the room, I put the phone down because the screaming made things inaudible. Looks as if the guy is about to lose half of everything he owns, including whatever fee he was going to charge me.
I understand he needs to sit the SATs but I'm unclear when he should do so. I understand there are various test dates and it's a two part exam process, with each being sat on a different date. I also understand there is a subject element beyond the SAT1. Arts and humanities are his strongpoints but I dont know how the subject choice works.
Lastly, the kid is mad smart. Makes me and my middle brother look lacklustre, although even he's done some good stuff in the military. The US pipe dream really does rest on a good financial aid package. That being said, he's narrowed it down to HYP, Brown, Dartmouth, Amherst and UPenn. I don't know much about the schools and their application process but I do realise you need to be pretty special to get admission along with financial aid.
TL:DR - when should he sit his SATs, what sort of subject combination to suit his ability and what sort of score should be scoring to have a decent chance at admissions.
Cheers.
Typically, in the US, you take the SAT the the spring of your junior year of high school, to apply for college in the fall of your senior year. You might run through an SAT prep book, but if he's a smart kid it shouldn't require too much prep.
Is it done like that so when you apply, you apply with your SAT results?
Thanks for your input.
Correct.
In the US, there are 4 major components to a college application.
1) SAT and/or ACT scores (he'll be fine just taking the SAT). You can take these an unlimited number of times and use your best score, so he should start studying and testing early. These tests are standardized, i.e., the subject matter is identical for everyone who takes it. When the SAT is given every couple months, every person in the entire country takes an (almost) identical test. You don't choose what you want to take. The test is basically math, reading and writing. 3 sections, each scored out of 800, for a total possible score of 2400. There are SAT subject tests as well, similar to A-levels. You can choose which ones you want to take. They are far less important than the main SAT.
2) Grade point average (out of 4, although some states score it out of 100. This measures how well you do in your classes). GPA measures your performance on in-class exams and assignments; it is separate from standardized tests like the SAT and ACT.
3) The rest of your resume, like leadership experience, sports teams, playing an instrument, competitions won, money raised for charity, etc. anything else you did that's cool.
4) Your Common Application essay responses and responses to any essay questions specific to that school's application, if necessary. Most colleges take the Common App although some use their own. These essay responses usually center around item 3, the "other stuff" you did outside of class, and how it makes you unique or outstanding relative to other candidates. Why should we take you instead of everyone else who's equally academically qualified?
All 4 components are equally important. Items 1 and 2 get you into the running, but items 3 and 4 are what set you apart and get you into top colleges.
He should shoot for an SAT score of at least 2300 in his position as an international student. Not sure how classes in the UK are graded, but his grades (if these exist outside of A level scores) should be perfect or close to it as well.
Has he done anything really cool outside of school? Started a company? Raised money for charity? Been a captain of a sports team? Top ranked piano played? etc. Basically, every applicant that applies to the top colleges in the US has perfect or near-perfect test scores and GPA. Having those only puts you in the middle of the pack in the applicant pool. The students that get into Harvard/Yale/etc. all have extraordinary accomplishments outside of the classroom. If he's just a "nerd" who's good at school he has little to no chance of getting into the schools you listed. FYI, this applies to about the top 20 ranked colleges in the US, not just Harvard and its peers you mentioned.
It's hard to overemphasize how difficult it is to get into a HYPSM or any top 20 college here. And even if he does get in, it's unlikely he will get much financial aid as a presumably white, upper middle class international student. He should cast a very wide net and apply to a lot of schools.
We generally refer to the results of the SATs as scores (grades are what you receive for classes) but yes.
I know one guy that got into Harvard straight out of HS (from Europe). He had top grades and all AP classes, got 1790 on the SAT(which he took in the spring or so during his last year), competitive athlete, played multiple instruments AND had some various extracurricular leadership positions. A very typical Ivy applicant.
There is way, way more competition for international applicants. A 2300+ SAT score, a high GPA, and a top 5% class rank will at least put him in the running, and national- or international-level recognition is almost something of a necessity for internationals. From what you typed earlier about his extra-curricular involvement, it looks like he's competitive in this respect. And then, as you alluded to, there are the SAT subject tests in different areas, and these will necessitate scores in the 750-800 range. There's the Literature subject test, which might play to his strengths based on what you said about him. Most top colleges require, or strongly recommend, 2 subject tests. A really helpful place for this information is collegeconfidential. Again, the competition for internationals is insane. I hope all goes well.
That's interesting. Makes me think that the UK could take a leaf out of your book and put a lot of emphasis on the non academic aspect.
Also, you said it's recommended or required to do two SAT subjects. Does that mean that doing those are optional with the SAT 1 being the requirement? I didn't read that online anywhere and assumed he had to do 3 subject tests as well.
Some colleges go as far as saying that pupils with A Levels from Europe might even graduate in 3 years depending on grades. A friend told me that our final year of a level/high school is comparable to first year college classes.
A lot of people are saying there is a lot of competition for international students. That's true if you come from Asia, as that pool of applicant is ridiculously big. Coming from England that's a massive plus, there is an amazing schooling system in the UK, and it's 10x cheaper than in the US; same thing for the rest of Europe - so you get a tiny amount of applicants from Europe because they have no reason to apply in the US.
Him being a brit is a very big plus, any European has an edge vs. any American student - they want to diversify the student body. That said - it's very true regarding the financial aid package, he will have a much harder time getting much help there.
SAT is key, I took mine a long time ago - get him a book ASAP to take a sample test, the schooling system is better in the UK and he should have a stronger grasp of maths and English, he should easily score in the top 5%, the SAT is an absolute joke when you come from any country in Europe - his A-levels and GCSE are very important as well. Ad coms know the UK system and do realise what is and what is not a shitty grade.
That said - I believe he has a very strong chance of getting in based on what you said.
I have to recommend my alma matter - LSE will set him up for a proper career in the city and he will have a lot of fun living in London. Imperial is amazing, but he is more of a lit nerd, so probably not recommendable for him.
I told him to consider LSE as well but I felt a bit hypocritical considering I didn't end up taking my offer. His eventual career goal is publishing and didn't see the point in LSE. I'll still make him visit when he goes down to see UCL next year.
I'm a few years removed from undergrad admissions, but SAT II subject tests typically weren't required. Only some schools require them, and they often accept the ACT by itself, instead of SAT + SAT II subject tests. One of the schools I applied to wanted the SAT II subject tests.......I just took the ACT instead (it was cheaper and didn't require additional study, its pretty similar to just SAT).
Don't know if times have changed, but the ACT trick may save you time/effort/money........check the requirements for the schools you are interested in.
And to clarify, I had already taken and scored well on the SAT. I just didn't want to deal with 3 additional subject tests
Thanks for the insight. He's doing 4 A Levels which is a decent amount of work as it is. I'll double check the requirements now but if he doesn't have to do the subject tests, all the better for him.
Two important things:
1) I second the notion that he should figure all of this out on the website college confidential.
2) He needs to also apply to some easier schools to get into than HYP, Brown, Dartmouth, Amherst and UPenn. There are a lot of wiz kids in the US who have stellar scores/EC's whatever, but they hit the jackpot and win a rejection from each of these schools. I think you mentioned he has some back-ups in England, but he should have at least one back-up in the US with which he is almost guaranteed admissions and a good financial package.
Other than that, people have said when he should take his SAT's, but the thing to note is probably just the sooner the better. It's much easier to handle all the other crazy things that happen your junior year if you're not worrying about your SAT simultaneously. The test is incredibly easy, but he's going to want to make sure he has due study time to get a good feel for it and really kill it.
He will also need to take the SAT II's like others have mentioned. He should take Math level 2 and a literature or history test based on what you've told us about him. Schools want to see that 800 math level 2 to know he can actually handle the hard math. The other test just adds some personality.
As far as extracurriculars go, from what you've said he sounds fine. I embellished the shit out of my extracurriculars and nothing can really be verified anyways, so there's no risk.
The biggest mistake kids make is assuming they are a better applicant than they are, getting their hopes up and not applying to schools they can actually rely on. That's when they get a rejection letter from each school they applied to and have to take a gap year. You'd be surprised the caliber of kids this happens to.
Good luck, the college admissions process is a pain in the ass and I'm convinced the AdComs don't even know what they're looking for.
I'd also look into some of the elite liberal arts schools. Washington & Lee, for example, is actively encouraging international students to apply (waiving the application fee) and even has in-country interviews available for students in the UK and Mexico. I know they have a relatively new scholarship program where something like half the student body gets something like at least half of its tuition paid, blind of race, gender, need, etc.
I'm guessing a UK student who crushed the ACT/SAT would waltz into a place like W&L, have money thrown at him, and end of with a prestigious job post graduation.
http://www2.wlu.edu/x49956.xml
I'd second the recommendation to look into elite liberal arts colleges as well. Off the top of my head Amherst, Middlebury, Swarthmore and Williams are all regarded very well especially in the Northeast and there's the Claremont colleges in California that also stand out.
Looking into it now as we speak. Thank you.
Amherst is probably at the top of his list because he feels like he'll be most at home there although their international student population is pretty small. Then again, their incoming class sizes are also small.
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