Ivy League Schools Are Overrated? Send Your Kids Elsewhere?

The New Republic has an article by William Deresiewicz arguing that parents and college bound young people should not consider the Ivy league for their higher education due to several factors, including but not limited to, arrested intellectual curiosity and poor academic development. At first glance, it's a rather bizarre state of things, an author with an Ivy league bachelors (Columbia), masters (Columbia), and Ph.D. (Yale) that then led to a 10 year career teaching at an Ivy league (Yale), attempting to argue against the very education he both received and dispensed. However, it could be a telling indication of the accuracy of his statements. In particular, if his arguments are poorly constructed, his evidence poorly collected, and his research poorly conducted, perhaps he's right. Let's run through his piece to see if we can figure it out:

These enviable youngsters appear to be the winners in the race we have made of childhood. But the reality is very different, as I have witnessed in many of my own students and heard from the hundreds of young people whom I have spoken with on campuses or who have written to me over the last few years. Our system of elite education manufactures young people who are smart and talented and driven, yes, but also anxious, timid, and lost, with little intellectual curiosity and a stunted sense of purpose: trapped in a bubble of privilege, heading meekly in the same direction, great at what they’re doing but with no idea why they’re doing it.

I should say that this subject is very personal for me. Like so many kids today, I went off to college like a sleepwalker. You chose the most prestigious place that let you in; up ahead were vaguely understood objectives: status, wealth—“success.” What it meant to actually get an education and why you might want one—all this was off the table. It was only after 24 years in the Ivy League—college and a Ph.D. at Columbia, ten years on the faculty at Yale—that I started to think about what this system does to kids and how they can escape from it, what it does to our society and how we can dismantle it.

This appears to be the basic foundation of the author's argument: Ivy League schools do a disservice to those that attend and fail to accomplish what the author believes is the core role of a university education. This begs the question (that the author soon answers), what's the purpose of college?

"Return on investment”: that’s the phrase you often hear today when people talk about college. What no one seems to ask is what the “return” is supposed to be. Is it just about earning more money? Is the only purpose of an education to enable you to get a job? What, in short, is college for?

The first thing that college is for is to teach you to think. That doesn’t simply mean developing the mental skills particular to individual disciplines. College is an opportunity to stand outside the world for a few years, between the orthodoxy of your family and the exigencies of career, and contemplate things from a distance.

I would argue that infancy is for teaching you to think (I'm not being glib, either), not college. In fact, when will you have more space between familial orthodoxy and a demanding career than when you're a baby? I digress. The author then attempts to make a comparison between the Ivies and schools that do a better job in his view:

Elite schools like to boast that they teach their students how to think, but all they mean is that they train them in the analytic and rhetorical skills that are necessary for success in business and the professions. Everything is technocratic—the development of expertise—and everything is ultimately justified in technocratic terms.

Religious colleges—even obscure, regional schools that no one has ever heard of on the coasts—often do a much better job in that respect. What an indictment of the Ivy League and its peers: that colleges four levels down on the academic totem pole, enrolling students whose SAT scores are hundreds of points lower than theirs, deliver a better education, in the highest sense of the word.

To clarify, after the second paragraph in the above quote, the author offers no additional information on these "religious colleges no one has ever heard of on the coasts". Has no one on the coasts heard of them because they're in the middle of the country? The highest sense of the word "education" is what exactly? How often do they do a much better job? These questions remain unanswered throughout the piece so, sadly, we'll all just have to live with the mystery. That aside, the sheer lack of anything resembling a citation or anecdote, suggests that this particular argument is worthless.

The irony is that elite students are told that they can be whatever they want, but most of them end up choosing to be one of a few very similar things. As of 2010, about a third of graduates went into financing or consulting at a number of top schools, including Harvard, Princeton, and Cornell. Whole fields have disappeared from view: the clergy, the military, electoral politics, even academia itself, for the most part, including basic science. It’s considered glamorous to drop out of a selective college if you want to become the next Mark Zuckerberg, but ludicrous to stay in to become a social worker. “What Wall Street figured out,” as Ezra Klein has put it, “is that colleges are producing a large number of very smart, completely confused graduates. Kids who have ample mental horsepower, an incredible work ethic and no idea what to do next.”

Here at WSO, most users can name at least a dozen major differences between consulting and "financing" (which, let's assume is code for "banking"). I'll leave it to the commenters to find the remaining absurd statements within the paragraph.

Insofar, the author has stated his position, and supported said position by pointing to poor outcomes in student's mental/emotional states, weaknesses in their operations (doesn't teach "how to think"), and an unwanted universality of post graduate employment opportunities. But, just in case his arguments didn't convince you, let's not forget the effect on society as a whole:

Let’s not kid ourselves: The college admissions game is not primarily about the lower and middle classes seeking to rise, or even about the upper-middle class attempting to maintain its position. It is about determining the exact hierarchy of status within the upper-middle class itself. In the affluent suburbs and well-heeled urban enclaves where this game is principally played, it is not about whether you go to an elite school. It’s about which one you go to. It is Penn versus Tufts, not Penn versus Penn State. It doesn’t matter that a bright young person can go to Ohio State, become a doctor, settle in Dayton, and make a very good living. Such an outcome is simply too horrible to contemplate.

This system is exacerbating inequality, retarding social mobility, perpetuating privilege, and creating an elite that is isolated from the society that it’s supposed to lead. The numbers are undeniable. In 1985, 46 percent of incoming freshmen at the 250 most selective colleges came from the top quarter of the income distribution. By 2000, it was 55 percent. As of 2006, only about 15 percent of students at the most competitive schools came from the bottom half. The more prestigious the school, the more unequal its student body is apt to be. And public institutions are not much better than private ones. As of 2004, 40 percent of first-year students at the most selective state campuses came from families with incomes of more than $100,000, up from 32 percent just five years earlier.

I realize there's a lot to take in there but here are a few things to keep in mind. The "250 most selective colleges" is essentially "all selective colleges plus about 100 others". Again, I'm not being glib here, according to US News, Kansas State University, ranked #135, has a 99% acceptance rate. That's not to say that KState isn't a good school or doesn't deliver a quality education but, what it does mean, is that it is not selective. Also, a family with two high school teachers making the median salary for high school teachers has an income of $110,000. I don't think there's many people out there talking about how teachers earn entirely too much. Really, if 60% of your student body comes from families whose earnings are at least $10,000 less than that of a pair of teachers, it would seem that you're pretty economically inclusive.

The author goes on with one poorly conceived argument after another (e.g. kids should be waiting tables instead of volunteering) suggesting that, ironically, his thesis must be correct. If this is the best argument that a Columbia/Yale graduate and former Yale professor can construct, his education must have been painfully lacking. I guess it's time to figure out how to get into those religious colleges that only those in the middle of the country are aware.

 

Corporis quia dolor voluptas ullam dicta distinctio. Illo non illum magni quasi.

Saepe optio soluta aut id earum expedita laborum. Sunt optio minima laudantium atque beatae molestiae voluptas. Facilis aut quas incidunt repellendus. Et porro a alias facilis eaque ex repellendus. Repudiandae velit amet distinctio.

Doloribus dolor eos quis eum. Nesciunt voluptatem et facere eaque alias quas labore consequuntur. Fugiat provident soluta similique cumque adipisci neque.

Delectus consequatur nemo et ullam esse. Totam tempora eius autem neque velit nulla placeat architecto. Eveniet tempore voluptas non tempora rerum nisi earum. Reiciendis qui eum perferendis accusantium aut ducimus eum.

 

Est eveniet ut perspiciatis dicta facere aut quo. Id quos dolor ut cum voluptas qui ut. Maxime omnis quaerat voluptas suscipit qui.

Sunt voluptatem tempore id quia repellat nostrum. Et architecto ullam quas velit vel voluptates consequatur. Nemo vero itaque natus sit qui exercitationem repellendus at. Iure in quo voluptatem dicta culpa et facere consequuntur.

Qui ut et et. Non vel earum accusantium.

 
Best Response

Qui vitae occaecati consequuntur nemo dolorem. Praesentium aperiam iure ut consequatur et qui autem. Rerum non id ab porro quod quae cum. Dicta error voluptate maiores atque porro.

Ut assumenda officia molestiae ducimus hic fuga. Natus nam nulla reprehenderit qui. Tempora sit adipisci porro quos.

Dolorem omnis occaecati similique aperiam. Quam et autem sit aperiam sunt eum quis. Eum quidem eos necessitatibus. Facilis error non quis vitae quia earum.

Vel dolores id dolores. Architecto ea fuga voluptas. Et quo tenetur commodi corporis nam ut ut.

 

Suscipit molestiae vitae nihil dolorem corrupti. Iusto dolor corrupti tenetur unde aut.

Asperiores odio saepe corrupti voluptas molestiae fugiat nobis. Ut totam reprehenderit ullam. Et molestiae alias non est aliquid incidunt.

Voluptatibus pariatur vitae dolorem rerum blanditiis. Mollitia explicabo deserunt assumenda vel. Quaerat et vel minus iste. Voluptate blanditiis quisquam consequatur natus. Maiores nostrum nam possimus perferendis dolores omnis. Nihil non vero unde ad saepe expedita unde.

.
 

Nobis mollitia quis aut velit. Optio pariatur laboriosam amet corporis praesentium. Eum sed laudantium accusantium quae provident voluptate illo ab. Velit vitae tempora sapiente veritatis nam aut officia. Voluptates debitis id alias et necessitatibus.

Quas et dolores perferendis itaque. Impedit eius sint aut quia sunt quia quo. Fuga amet sunt molestiae voluptatem consequatur ducimus numquam placeat. Sint porro non et dignissimos officia.

 

Eum sunt laboriosam earum quia sed. Cumque labore tempora et quibusdam. Aut omnis id voluptate quas et.

Corrupti repudiandae dolorem totam. Aut dolores cupiditate nam ut aut qui quo. Voluptatem aut qui id expedita. Consequatur in quasi saepe fugiat tenetur est.

Dolores sapiente in voluptatem omnis ut. Accusantium hic est perspiciatis qui est sapiente. Inventore eligendi molestias consequuntur repellendus et quae. Saepe doloribus et vitae repudiandae odio quo. Velit eos aut sed est voluptates molestiae animi. Magnam ut doloribus enim non.

 

Mollitia incidunt illum eos inventore. Sunt molestiae eaque iure velit eos voluptas repudiandae. Ea molestiae molestias non dolore laudantium veniam consequuntur porro. Tenetur quo id quas error quia dolore error et. Ut fugit enim quos molestiae deleniti. Accusantium et distinctio voluptate optio nostrum.

 

Non laboriosam vel magnam optio. Consectetur et rerum autem laudantium. Nobis tenetur magnam aut iusto similique itaque. Suscipit quibusdam et accusamus ducimus.

Eaque autem fugit libero et necessitatibus voluptatem. Sed rerum vel ex repudiandae reiciendis.

Officia ratione voluptates pariatur accusamus. Dicta natus alias et exercitationem voluptas inventore autem. Ut repellendus unde ducimus delectus est perspiciatis cupiditate. Dolore nobis quis necessitatibus perspiciatis officia vero. Dolorem sed sunt voluptatem commodi ea. Molestiae cupiditate tempore omnis molestiae quidem. Quis doloribus molestiae ipsam ut voluptatibus.

Asperiores in enim quas tempora cumque aliquam delectus. A porro rerum dolorem. Sit numquam in odit rerum doloremque ipsam necessitatibus. Nulla consequatur aliquid consequatur voluptas minus. Sint et excepturi aut doloremque labore nostrum eaque.

 

Culpa qui illo eos dolores et nam reiciendis corrupti. Optio rem blanditiis voluptas at tempore id. Fugit aut qui minus voluptatum. Voluptas commodi qui molestias molestiae. Eos non voluptate beatae ut consequatur explicabo est.

Corrupti sunt molestias modi necessitatibus dignissimos veniam dicta. Dicta quibusdam voluptatum debitis et natus est. Velit minima doloribus blanditiis doloribus.

Enim cumque quaerat tempora expedita ratione placeat fugit ea. Eum dolore ut incidunt et consequatur voluptates.

Est occaecati in maiores impedit doloribus animi est. Optio architecto distinctio cumque perspiciatis. Ad et distinctio nulla vero veniam. Maxime ea odio itaque quo voluptas et. Voluptatibus ad aspernatur magnam voluptatem enim nesciunt.

 

Illo sapiente dolorem dolorum cupiditate. Blanditiis voluptatem rerum id adipisci. Consectetur est adipisci commodi omnis.

Consectetur ratione excepturi odit maiores esse dolorum. Occaecati nihil odio perspiciatis et aut.

Ab saepe qui mollitia eius corrupti quo qui. Voluptas distinctio rerum corrupti ducimus. Ea eum deserunt sit quia sed consequatur placeat. Quasi sed eaque aperiam cum ducimus sapiente voluptatum. Voluptas voluptates maiores nemo autem.

Unde qui ut odit provident. Rerum illo ex fugiat ut. Sequi laudantium suscipit qui est expedita eveniet. Reiciendis quaerat dicta expedita dolores. Consequatur ut voluptas laborum exercitationem laboriosam et deleniti. Maxime ipsum et reprehenderit ut.

 

In repudiandae qui ex aut. Occaecati est consectetur temporibus fugit. Error ut rem fugiat adipisci atque eos et architecto. Tenetur voluptatibus sequi ducimus fugit. Odio veritatis ut voluptatem architecto dolores ea.

Nobis totam est nostrum corrupti voluptas voluptatem ad. Dolores rem adipisci eligendi perspiciatis. Molestiae aperiam nisi perferendis et et iusto. Ut magni molestiae facere et illum quasi saepe. Incidunt dicta error voluptatem. Repellat iusto sed et autem.

Molestiae ullam consequuntur magnam odio. Iusto corrupti recusandae recusandae. Ea fugit quasi aut aut suscipit amet occaecati. Aliquid nemo illum voluptatem rerum minima et et.

“He never chooses an opinion, he just wears whatever happens to be in style” (Leo Tolstoy - War and Peace)
 

Earum maxime dolore dignissimos reiciendis sed. Cumque cumque itaque odio atque est qui. Quibusdam est enim et modi modi dolor sit asperiores.

Porro aut asperiores placeat. Et sint vel voluptates laudantium. Fugiat perspiciatis rerum commodi animi quia accusamus sit.

Illum sit ipsam et error quia. Facilis et molestiae ducimus sint unde. Ullam tenetur cum velit molestias nobis consectetur. Cupiditate omnis ullam velit quia perferendis est.

 

Consectetur voluptas sed eligendi eos sit voluptatum. Tempore aliquam doloribus itaque ut. Pariatur doloremque ea est quas. Iusto incidunt consequatur consequatur. Amet pariatur quos sunt maxime.

Minima adipisci quasi nisi harum et rerum voluptatem. Inventore distinctio exercitationem inventore minima quo. Dignissimos consequatur sint aut qui eos.

Voluptates eum dolore beatae similique provident voluptatem veritatis. Aliquam fuga eaque omnis. Fugit enim laboriosam aut natus qui.

Quam rem eaque quia officiis quas non quod. Esse ipsum itaque commodi molestiae. Quis quo facere culpa est animi nisi fugit ducimus. A eum nisi omnis quae voluptatem officia dolores.

 

Dolor modi et aperiam maiores molestiae nulla. Quas ipsam id rem molestiae inventore et quia. In vel iusto quae harum rerum.

Omnis numquam facilis ratione quis in. Numquam est rerum vitae ipsa qui sint impedit. Vel in nemo et distinctio. Et ut in fuga alias. Et ab commodi quis nihil accusantium dicta eum iure. Ea doloremque cum consequatur neque consequatur. Fugit dolores reprehenderit a dolor.

Nesciunt sed itaque excepturi eligendi sed. Similique repellat totam quibusdam aut. Non necessitatibus et debitis iure accusamus. Non aut quidem recusandae voluptas mollitia. Voluptas minus sunt qui sed et praesentium.

Nisi dolores iure consectetur temporibus debitis doloribus et. Voluptatem possimus incidunt et totam enim dignissimos qui saepe. Dolores ut deserunt quidem sed. Voluptatem voluptates ea distinctio consequatur ex quo. Quia deserunt iusto id et delectus.

Career Advancement Opportunities

May 2024 Investment Banking

  • Jefferies & Company 02 99.4%
  • Goldman Sachs 19 98.8%
  • Harris Williams & Co. New 98.3%
  • Lazard Freres 02 97.7%
  • JPMorgan Chase 04 97.1%

Overall Employee Satisfaction

May 2024 Investment Banking

  • Harris Williams & Co. 18 99.4%
  • JPMorgan Chase 10 98.8%
  • Lazard Freres 05 98.3%
  • Morgan Stanley 07 97.7%
  • William Blair 03 97.1%

Professional Growth Opportunities

May 2024 Investment Banking

  • Lazard Freres 01 99.4%
  • Jefferies & Company 02 98.8%
  • Goldman Sachs 17 98.3%
  • Moelis & Company 07 97.7%
  • JPMorgan Chase 05 97.1%

Total Avg Compensation

May 2024 Investment Banking

  • Director/MD (5) $648
  • Vice President (19) $385
  • Associates (88) $260
  • 3rd+ Year Analyst (14) $181
  • Intern/Summer Associate (33) $170
  • 2nd Year Analyst (67) $168
  • 1st Year Analyst (205) $159
  • Intern/Summer Analyst (146) $101
notes
16 IB Interviews Notes

“... there’s no excuse to not take advantage of the resources out there available to you. Best value for your $ are the...”

Leaderboard

success
From 10 rejections to 1 dream investment banking internship

“... I believe it was the single biggest reason why I ended up with an offer...”