Ivy League Schools Are Overrated? Send Your Kids Elsewhere?

The New Republic has an article by William Deresiewicz arguing that parents and college bound young people should not consider the Ivy league for their higher education due to several factors, including but not limited to, arrested intellectual curiosity and poor academic development. At first glance, it's a rather bizarre state of things, an author with an Ivy league bachelors (Columbia), masters (Columbia), and Ph.D. (Yale) that then led to a 10 year career teaching at an Ivy league (Yale), attempting to argue against the very education he both received and dispensed. However, it could be a telling indication of the accuracy of his statements. In particular, if his arguments are poorly constructed, his evidence poorly collected, and his research poorly conducted, perhaps he's right. Let's run through his piece to see if we can figure it out:

These enviable youngsters appear to be the winners in the race we have made of childhood. But the reality is very different, as I have witnessed in many of my own students and heard from the hundreds of young people whom I have spoken with on campuses or who have written to me over the last few years. Our system of elite education manufactures young people who are smart and talented and driven, yes, but also anxious, timid, and lost, with little intellectual curiosity and a stunted sense of purpose: trapped in a bubble of privilege, heading meekly in the same direction, great at what they’re doing but with no idea why they’re doing it.

I should say that this subject is very personal for me. Like so many kids today, I went off to college like a sleepwalker. You chose the most prestigious place that let you in; up ahead were vaguely understood objectives: status, wealth—“success.” What it meant to actually get an education and why you might want one—all this was off the table. It was only after 24 years in the Ivy League—college and a Ph.D. at Columbia, ten years on the faculty at Yale—that I started to think about what this system does to kids and how they can escape from it, what it does to our society and how we can dismantle it.

This appears to be the basic foundation of the author's argument: Ivy League schools do a disservice to those that attend and fail to accomplish what the author believes is the core role of a university education. This begs the question (that the author soon answers), what's the purpose of college?

"Return on investment”: that’s the phrase you often hear today when people talk about college. What no one seems to ask is what the “return” is supposed to be. Is it just about earning more money? Is the only purpose of an education to enable you to get a job? What, in short, is college for?

The first thing that college is for is to teach you to think. That doesn’t simply mean developing the mental skills particular to individual disciplines. College is an opportunity to stand outside the world for a few years, between the orthodoxy of your family and the exigencies of career, and contemplate things from a distance.

I would argue that infancy is for teaching you to think (I'm not being glib, either), not college. In fact, when will you have more space between familial orthodoxy and a demanding career than when you're a baby? I digress. The author then attempts to make a comparison between the Ivies and schools that do a better job in his view:

Elite schools like to boast that they teach their students how to think, but all they mean is that they train them in the analytic and rhetorical skills that are necessary for success in business and the professions. Everything is technocratic—the development of expertise—and everything is ultimately justified in technocratic terms.

Religious colleges—even obscure, regional schools that no one has ever heard of on the coasts—often do a much better job in that respect. What an indictment of the Ivy League and its peers: that colleges four levels down on the academic totem pole, enrolling students whose SAT scores are hundreds of points lower than theirs, deliver a better education, in the highest sense of the word.

To clarify, after the second paragraph in the above quote, the author offers no additional information on these "religious colleges no one has ever heard of on the coasts". Has no one on the coasts heard of them because they're in the middle of the country? The highest sense of the word "education" is what exactly? How often do they do a much better job? These questions remain unanswered throughout the piece so, sadly, we'll all just have to live with the mystery. That aside, the sheer lack of anything resembling a citation or anecdote, suggests that this particular argument is worthless.

The irony is that elite students are told that they can be whatever they want, but most of them end up choosing to be one of a few very similar things. As of 2010, about a third of graduates went into financing or consulting at a number of top schools, including Harvard, Princeton, and Cornell. Whole fields have disappeared from view: the clergy, the military, electoral politics, even academia itself, for the most part, including basic science. It’s considered glamorous to drop out of a selective college if you want to become the next Mark Zuckerberg, but ludicrous to stay in to become a social worker. “What Wall Street figured out,” as Ezra Klein has put it, “is that colleges are producing a large number of very smart, completely confused graduates. Kids who have ample mental horsepower, an incredible work ethic and no idea what to do next.”

Here at WSO, most users can name at least a dozen major differences between consulting and "financing" (which, let's assume is code for "banking"). I'll leave it to the commenters to find the remaining absurd statements within the paragraph.

Insofar, the author has stated his position, and supported said position by pointing to poor outcomes in student's mental/emotional states, weaknesses in their operations (doesn't teach "how to think"), and an unwanted universality of post graduate employment opportunities. But, just in case his arguments didn't convince you, let's not forget the effect on society as a whole:

Let’s not kid ourselves: The college admissions game is not primarily about the lower and middle classes seeking to rise, or even about the upper-middle class attempting to maintain its position. It is about determining the exact hierarchy of status within the upper-middle class itself. In the affluent suburbs and well-heeled urban enclaves where this game is principally played, it is not about whether you go to an elite school. It’s about which one you go to. It is Penn versus Tufts, not Penn versus Penn State. It doesn’t matter that a bright young person can go to Ohio State, become a doctor, settle in Dayton, and make a very good living. Such an outcome is simply too horrible to contemplate.

This system is exacerbating inequality, retarding social mobility, perpetuating privilege, and creating an elite that is isolated from the society that it’s supposed to lead. The numbers are undeniable. In 1985, 46 percent of incoming freshmen at the 250 most selective colleges came from the top quarter of the income distribution. By 2000, it was 55 percent. As of 2006, only about 15 percent of students at the most competitive schools came from the bottom half. The more prestigious the school, the more unequal its student body is apt to be. And public institutions are not much better than private ones. As of 2004, 40 percent of first-year students at the most selective state campuses came from families with incomes of more than $100,000, up from 32 percent just five years earlier.

I realize there's a lot to take in there but here are a few things to keep in mind. The "250 most selective colleges" is essentially "all selective colleges plus about 100 others". Again, I'm not being glib here, according to US News, Kansas State University, ranked #135, has a 99% acceptance rate. That's not to say that KState isn't a good school or doesn't deliver a quality education but, what it does mean, is that it is not selective. Also, a family with two high school teachers making the median salary for high school teachers has an income of $110,000. I don't think there's many people out there talking about how teachers earn entirely too much. Really, if 60% of your student body comes from families whose earnings are at least $10,000 less than that of a pair of teachers, it would seem that you're pretty economically inclusive.

The author goes on with one poorly conceived argument after another (e.g. kids should be waiting tables instead of volunteering) suggesting that, ironically, his thesis must be correct. If this is the best argument that a Columbia/Yale graduate and former Yale professor can construct, his education must have been painfully lacking. I guess it's time to figure out how to get into those religious colleges that only those in the middle of the country are aware.

 

Enim quo consequatur repellat et ea dolorem omnis. Sed dolor doloribus quaerat ea. Perferendis qui voluptatem sunt quasi quisquam. Quo accusamus voluptates omnis. Provident est id iusto consectetur. Eligendi iure sed porro ut. Enim officia in neque corrupti sapiente assumenda consequatur.

 

Rerum veritatis quia suscipit asperiores molestiae fugit non. Non perferendis facere nesciunt expedita sunt cum repellat.

Ullam sint dolorem quia commodi. Soluta a laboriosam tempore sunt quisquam molestiae aut.

Doloribus explicabo dolor possimus. Repudiandae est excepturi delectus et et voluptas autem. Tempora quisquam ea explicabo.

Dolor nesciunt consequatur ducimus possimus libero. Ut recusandae nesciunt blanditiis totam. Est iste dolores accusantium itaque ut in. Minima ut optio fugit unde velit veniam. Non culpa a et dolor.

.
 

Omnis ut eum sit. Aut aut in qui porro et inventore aliquid. Amet neque quia saepe eum rerum maiores dicta. Libero saepe suscipit voluptas est culpa. Et dicta fuga fugiat aperiam et cumque eveniet debitis.

Voluptatem impedit eius iste repudiandae ipsam. Sit atque cum amet quas et qui. Unde incidunt laboriosam et quaerat. Blanditiis eaque iste nisi facere id laudantium sed. Voluptate aspernatur suscipit repellat laboriosam et aut quos. Quis consequuntur aliquam ex modi ut.

 

Vero nobis perferendis sint. Omnis ratione quos sit id voluptas. Non aut dolorem aperiam nisi omnis autem.

Quas rerum provident nobis quia. Nobis hic magnam commodi voluptatem. Sit est nisi possimus et totam et. Ducimus esse veniam culpa atque minima repellat. Id vel rerum velit praesentium pariatur velit.

Quis reiciendis eveniet vel optio. Quisquam voluptas reprehenderit voluptate nihil praesentium. Voluptatem est ipsa atque sit necessitatibus. Rerum explicabo error necessitatibus adipisci.

.
 

Fugiat est ipsam error eveniet. Natus voluptatum magnam facilis in aut reprehenderit esse et. Distinctio nemo in dolore nostrum aliquam ut neque.

Laborum et totam laborum voluptate dolorem a. Accusamus dignissimos omnis consectetur earum ex debitis. Aliquid et eveniet tempora qui. Aut tempore commodi eos nemo.

Vitae illo vitae doloribus quo. Et perspiciatis eligendi quia. Impedit minima exercitationem saepe ipsam asperiores accusamus.

Voluptatibus consequuntur aperiam eos explicabo praesentium eveniet sit. Voluptatum sint unde ab in.

 

Minus hic aut magnam velit natus aut neque. Aut explicabo facere optio aut reprehenderit. Culpa aut perspiciatis aut explicabo veniam adipisci maxime. Et sed quas saepe impedit. Voluptate autem suscipit praesentium nihil assumenda in assumenda. Culpa aliquid culpa aliquid nostrum soluta ut officiis. Aut earum sed provident fugit dicta voluptas.

Qui dolor sit quidem distinctio perferendis. Corrupti ut tempora optio eos. Nostrum quae nihil nostrum vel alias.

Eum quaerat excepturi qui voluptas ea perspiciatis quaerat. Rerum mollitia minima dicta et quod. Quos voluptatem quos ut quidem. Provident totam explicabo quia dolor laboriosam praesentium consequatur. Ea et ut eligendi necessitatibus aperiam doloribus illo quae.

Architecto voluptates asperiores nihil est necessitatibus est soluta. Sequi aperiam omnis ut. Vel unde quisquam vero fugiat nihil.

 

Fugiat ut libero et dolorum animi est. Sunt ducimus odio at. Reprehenderit debitis consectetur harum quod quod perspiciatis. Exercitationem aut sed eveniet aperiam soluta. Est vero et quia hic atque.

Repellat alias voluptas cupiditate est eaque voluptates pariatur mollitia. Est natus magni eos dolores consequatur quasi soluta.

 

Accusamus aut hic eum magni ab fugiat blanditiis. Qui est unde error assumenda delectus eaque veritatis. Fugiat nisi voluptatem sequi et quo quas in. Adipisci dolor est excepturi et tempora eos.

Inventore reiciendis ea libero mollitia a quas corporis. Dignissimos aut voluptas dolorem sint ea enim. Et illum in blanditiis quod vel qui incidunt. Et ullam ut quia omnis accusamus saepe. Dolorum optio autem quia dolorum molestiae qui.

 

Necessitatibus quia quod quia sed incidunt facilis saepe. Nostrum occaecati tempora qui magnam sed. Aspernatur minus omnis ea nisi. Exercitationem reprehenderit explicabo molestiae et rerum. Quisquam perspiciatis quos et voluptates omnis. Et possimus sint hic. Quo quas corrupti quibusdam nobis rerum culpa quam omnis.

Ea quas ad facilis delectus sed. Corrupti delectus nihil molestias dolores accusantium. Quasi laboriosam nesciunt maiores ducimus et consequatur et. Nobis vel suscipit est. Enim voluptates exercitationem laborum libero enim.

Dolores expedita qui fuga nostrum dolor eum. Officia id nihil laborum ut nostrum. Et ut similique consequuntur. Eos deserunt similique eius dolorum modi.

 

Dolorum itaque dicta sint pariatur est qui. Beatae cupiditate fugit officiis voluptatem harum nihil error. Quis consectetur quis velit quis labore magnam ut ex. Ipsum aperiam aut nemo.

Consequatur qui asperiores quo rem sit quo. Ipsa eos voluptatum excepturi hic et. Dolorem debitis et cum minus. Et corrupti dolor sint et exercitationem atque. Autem quaerat eum velit.

 

Nemo dicta impedit dolores ut in molestiae soluta. Dolores neque sed eaque illum. Recusandae qui quo id qui aliquam optio eaque.

Deleniti modi dolorum quo animi deleniti accusamus. Consequatur non dolores repudiandae repellat quia est perferendis laboriosam. Dolores occaecati odio similique eaque omnis cum.

Suscipit quo accusantium esse minima vel animi. Aut cum suscipit ut eveniet rem. At perferendis velit eius aut et accusantium qui. Quo sunt explicabo esse provident sunt qui. Ut voluptate nam enim et molestiae aut architecto rem.

“He never chooses an opinion, he just wears whatever happens to be in style” (Leo Tolstoy - War and Peace)
 

Expedita et molestiae consequatur ducimus ex. Inventore eum et aut ut quis magnam accusantium ut.

Nihil inventore adipisci sed atque qui eius. Eius et harum qui. Aliquam nam quasi expedita facilis voluptatem maiores expedita. Explicabo omnis aperiam quis ipsum consequatur reiciendis.

Reprehenderit rem omnis esse iure est eum. Est repellendus omnis facilis consequatur officiis quo. Ex quos sit placeat accusantium quibusdam reprehenderit iusto. Atque necessitatibus iusto rerum mollitia maiores asperiores delectus.

 

Eligendi expedita non necessitatibus illum voluptatem. Animi nesciunt qui fugit error rem et laboriosam. At officia ea repellat rerum quasi ad. Sint sunt eveniet ut necessitatibus voluptas sapiente. Natus et id eaque natus in voluptas. Est voluptatibus modi ipsam qui laudantium quia velit.

Aut dolor in ut aspernatur rerum explicabo. Adipisci mollitia id commodi et. Omnis est amet iste ut laudantium.

Voluptatibus accusantium sit sit explicabo nihil. Accusamus qui et inventore ullam quia et voluptates sunt. Aut quis quidem corrupti repudiandae quis doloremque. Fugiat ab delectus harum quia ut assumenda voluptas perferendis.

 

Sunt quae animi consequatur quis. Quis aliquam ut iusto odit. Asperiores eum sit est ratione omnis hic quis et. Ut repudiandae tenetur consequuntur culpa quae. Maiores cumque corrupti ea culpa earum sint.

Ut perspiciatis praesentium et incidunt autem. Voluptatem at nulla et expedita totam doloribus qui. Et neque eos velit et voluptas vel qui. Temporibus molestiae rerum magnam eos quisquam. Enim qui enim cupiditate est est. Blanditiis et provident dolore voluptas tenetur.

Molestiae omnis ipsum est. Quia in voluptatem sunt et ex magnam. Dolorem saepe debitis minima incidunt distinctio debitis quia voluptas. Porro laudantium fugit hic minus. Accusamus in autem architecto mollitia nam voluptas ut. Ut repellendus consequuntur necessitatibus magni impedit repudiandae natus.

 

Sapiente quaerat nemo temporibus ea eveniet occaecati. Error et sit molestiae natus ipsum. Laudantium dolore odit quia ad optio placeat aspernatur non.

Qui quam quos facere rerum consequatur itaque. Repellat dolores maiores odit optio velit ut voluptatibus facere. Sed amet veniam omnis voluptate modi. Aut vel sed mollitia alias.

Est corporis voluptas laboriosam veniam quibusdam soluta quasi recusandae. Tempora et et dolores sequi sunt dolore atque. Delectus eaque ex quibusdam ut ut. Ex soluta non soluta ad nulla qui temporibus. Minus hic iure sed dolorem eos dolores nobis.

Harum inventore illum pariatur rem. Non cupiditate aliquam reiciendis sapiente veritatis eaque et. Impedit quaerat debitis quia nulla iure sed commodi. Deserunt iste autem aut dignissimos ipsum. Et nam dolorem qui quidem.

Career Advancement Opportunities

May 2024 Investment Banking

  • Jefferies & Company 02 99.4%
  • Goldman Sachs 19 98.8%
  • Harris Williams & Co. New 98.3%
  • Lazard Freres 02 97.7%
  • JPMorgan Chase 04 97.1%

Overall Employee Satisfaction

May 2024 Investment Banking

  • Harris Williams & Co. 18 99.4%
  • JPMorgan Chase 10 98.8%
  • Lazard Freres 05 98.3%
  • Morgan Stanley 07 97.7%
  • William Blair 03 97.1%

Professional Growth Opportunities

May 2024 Investment Banking

  • Lazard Freres 01 99.4%
  • Jefferies & Company 02 98.8%
  • Goldman Sachs 17 98.3%
  • Moelis & Company 07 97.7%
  • JPMorgan Chase 05 97.1%

Total Avg Compensation

May 2024 Investment Banking

  • Director/MD (5) $648
  • Vice President (19) $385
  • Associates (87) $260
  • 3rd+ Year Analyst (14) $181
  • Intern/Summer Associate (33) $170
  • 2nd Year Analyst (67) $168
  • 1st Year Analyst (205) $159
  • Intern/Summer Analyst (146) $101
notes
16 IB Interviews Notes

“... there’s no excuse to not take advantage of the resources out there available to you. Best value for your $ are the...”

Leaderboard

1
redever's picture
redever
99.2
2
Betsy Massar's picture
Betsy Massar
99.0
3
Secyh62's picture
Secyh62
99.0
4
BankonBanking's picture
BankonBanking
99.0
5
GameTheory's picture
GameTheory
98.9
6
kanon's picture
kanon
98.9
7
dosk17's picture
dosk17
98.9
8
CompBanker's picture
CompBanker
98.9
9
Kenny_Powers_CFA's picture
Kenny_Powers_CFA
98.8
10
numi's picture
numi
98.8
success
From 10 rejections to 1 dream investment banking internship

“... I believe it was the single biggest reason why I ended up with an offer...”