Hi Everyone,
I want to change up my training split - I'm an intermediate to advanced lifter, wondering what the other units of WSO are doing for their splits right now or a favorite split they've done in the past.
Currently doing a low-volume Dorian Yates-esque program w/ two push, two pull & one leg day. Although I've been making excellent strength gains, quite frankly, I want to spend more time in the gym...any suggestions?
Thanks.
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By more time do you mean 6 days or still 5 days? 6 days I’d say run a PPL version of Boring But Big.
I’ve had a lot of success with various PPL’s. Changing the amount of rest time in between each set can push an hour workout to 3 hours and let you move a lot more weight.
I say boring but big because it’s one of the most high volume training programs I know of and have personally done. I’ve never tried German volume training but those programs seem to be time intensive as well
Thanks for the reply.
I just mean generally time in the gym...I'm currently only spending about an hour in the gym each workout, but I find I'm in a better headspace when it's more like 2+ and given right now I've got the time, I'd like to spend more of it in the gym.
I just had a cursory glance at the Boring But Big - will definitely read more on it.
For what its worth, I don't know if you've ever ran smolov, but GVT feels similar in a fatigue sense. Maybe I just wasn't eating/sleeping enough, but for the life of me I could not recover between GVT workouts, even moreso than smolov despite doing that when I was much more of a novice.
The pumps on GVT are insane though.
Just wondering - how do you structure your PPLs with BBB concepts? I've been running a BBB style program (I don't do deadlift day because I have a bad lower back and my gym doesn't have a trap deadlift bar, unfortunately) 3x a week with cardio on off days. I usually do the 5/3/1 lift and then an opposite accessory (i.e. 5/3/1 bench and then 5x10 of OHP or Incline Bench instead of 5x10 bench). I'm curious what a good way to structure this would be in a PPL 2x a week format though. I too have noticed I mostly make muscle gains through volume training, even if it's way lighter weight I'm using each set
Now that I think about it my BBB isn’t really a true 5/3/1.
My CNS got taxed trying to do BBB 6 days a week (it’s a 4 day program). My 6 day PPL would look something like this (start Monday):
Main lift: Deadlift trap bar
1x5, 1x5, 1x5 warmup increasing weight
5x5 @ working weight (establish what you can do 5x5, will take trial and error)
After 5x5, 1x12 Dante row, 1x12 again for warm up
Then 5x12 Dante row at working weight (go slow and contract, will be very difficult by last set)
If moving serious weight on dead, your forearms will be tired. Dante row gets great lat stretch with minimal forearm use and doesn’t stress lower back
Tuesday: I stopped benching due to shoulder issues and run cable flies, tricep extensions, cable lat raises. SS this - warmup is 1x15, 1x15 for all then 5x15 (20 on lat raises and flies as first few reps are to get the feel). I got my push-ups from 20 in a row at around 220 to 67 around 195 in 3 months last year.
Wednesday: Legs - did goblet squats 5x20 (only had access to 75lb DB) after warmup SS with hamstring curl. After those would do DB RDL (3x12) and leg extension (3x20). Finish with back extensions to failure (squeeze ass as hard as possible).
Really only BBB is pull and that’s the accessory, but I’ve found really getting good mind muscle connection on the Lats by just doing one supplementary exercise to work well.
I know do legs push pull as I want to embrace the suck of mondays and do my hardest training then
Probably not useful to you but right now I do upper, lower, 4x a week. But you could try push pull legs upper lower.
Try to cut some weight to roll back the damages of banking. Right now, waking up around 6:30 AM to run a version of PPL and 5/3/1 for the main lifts (deadlifts, bench presses, squats, barbell rows and OHPs). Doing (M to F) Pull with Deadlift, Push with BP, Legs with Squats, Pull with Rows and Push with OHPs.
Works decently, but always open to tips. Trying to incorporate more cardio but it's hard to squeeze it in.
Monday: 1 hr of Zone 2 cardio
Tuesday: Full Body Lift
Wednesday: 1 hr of Zone 2
Thursday: 30 mins Zone 2 / Upper
Friday: 30 mins Zone 2/ Lower
Saturday: Zone 5
Zone 2 cardio - fast walking or jogging? Or more intense?
Treadmill incline usually between 10-12 and speed at 3-3.2 mph
Fellow Peter Attia fan I see
Big fan, sky is the limit for him.
That's a great place to be in - being able to spend more time in the gym and wanting to. If your goal is strength, I really enjoy full-body workouts that cycle through different body parts, picking a weight that could hit an 8 rep-max and doing it for 5 reps. For example, you could do a Legs/Vertical Push (Block A) and Pull/Horizontal Push (Block B) split, pick one or two big exercises for each pattern, and go back and forth between them with medium to long rest periods. Simple Example:
Block A:
Squat (Legs) x 5 reps
Rest 3 minutes
Military Press (Vertical Push) x 5 reps
Rest 3 minutes
Repeat 10x
There are a handful of benefits here. The first is that you are well rested each set - you rested 6 minutes since the last time you performed the same exercise, so you should have great form and performance each set. Since a big piece of strength is form and practicing your form, this is a great way to ensure each rep has great form. You also accumulate more volume than say 3-5 sets of your max 8 reps of each (5 reps x 10 sets > 8 reps x 3-5 sets). You are also spending more time/volume on the big movements that create better results rather than the other movements (leg extension, for example). Of course, waving volume should be included as well, and at times you will have to push to an 8-9 RPE rather than a 6-7.
If your focus is hypertrophy or you enjoy isometrics then definitely find a different program. I'm not a huge fan of those movements.
Dude, this is exactly what I'm going to do. I hate doing more than a handful of movements per workout, and in the past, I have noticed my best overall gains (perhaps excluding arms) when doing full-body workouts with tons of squats, OHP, pull-ups, etc.
I've never tried that rest period approach, but it sounds very interesting. I'm definitely going to try this out.
One question though: I see you mention usually doing a lower RPE, but given you're doing 10 sets, how do you manage fatigue and time between workouts? I get that it would be no big deal with that volume when doing, say, cable curls. But I imagine that even with the lower RPE, after 10 sets of squats and OHP, you'd be pretty fried... Or have you not found that to be the case?
Thank you for your response. I appreciate it and I'm looking forward to trying this out on Thursday.
Yeah I love long rest periods when it comes to strength. Pavel's grease-the-groove technique is awesome if you're trying to get better at a certain movement. If you work from home and have a pull up bar, squat rack, dumbbells/kettlebells, etc try to do one or two sets many time throughout the day, maybe one set at the top of each hour - the results are great.
When I reference rep max I am talking technical rep max, so you could do a few more reps but form wouldn't be perfect. As with anything, you will have to adapt to it. I have been training in this fashion (or similar) for a long time so I'm pretty efficient at it vs if I had to do 3 sets of 15 reps on an exercise I would need a longer rest periods until my body adapted (maybe that means I should spend time with high-rep work).
You can also play around with the weight and rest - snag a 3 RM and do 1 rep, 5 or 6 RM and do 2 reps, etc. Or, if you find that 3 minutes is too short of a rest increase to 4-5 minutes. Really rest as long as you need to be fresh and ready to perform your set. If your form breaks down, you have done too many reps for that set. Your first sets should feel pretty easy, and the entire workout should feel like you were doing manual labor for the day - never pushing yourself too close to exhaustion so you can continue to train. With any new program you will need a few sessions to find the goldilocks weight and rep scheme.
Can you elaborate on your contrast of hypertrophy vs just building strength (and why you prefer the latter)? I understand hypertrophy is building / growing muscle cells; so your goal in this program is just to build strength in order to push higher volumes of weight? Why do you prefer this over other results (hypertrophy, isometrics)? Not trying to argue here, genuinely curious.
For sure. Since I don't think I will ever be an elite athlete I program based on what I am most likely to do and be consistent with rather than what may be optimal. For me I prioritize consistency, and while I will throw in hypertrophy work from time to time, if that's my entire program I would be more likely to find a reason to skip the workout. Of course, with any strength training program there is carry-over between strength gains and muscle gains/hypertrophy, but some methods are better for one or the other. I also like to prioritize the big compound movements because they produce the best return on investment (core gets worked well on squats and OH press, so I can add in ab work but don't need to). If you have only ever done high-rep work or machine work (or that has always been the focus), you will gain muscle on this program for sure, but it might not optimize muscle growth.
Similarly, I hate cardio. So I do enough to keep my heart healthy, but not much more because I just won't be consistent with it. Essentially any training program can be optimized, you could always add in more stability work, more cardio, grip strength, unilateral work, slow reps, fast reps, power movements, etc, etc, but when there's too much to focus on, nothing get's focused on and I find that this style of a workout works best for me and that's what's important. If you would never do this type of training consistently, I would not suggest it because goal #1 is to show up regularly.
Currently I lift kettlebells in the morning. 10 minutes high intensity, 45 seconds work, 15 seconds rest, then another 10 minutes non kettlebell HIit. Sometimes hill sprints because I live on a hill.
I might rejoin a gym tho. My gym went out of business during COVID, hence I switched to kettlebells during lockdown. When I was going to the gym I would go in early morning and runs circuit and stick to compound lifts. bench, front squat, military press, upright row, front squat. Repeat.
Been interested recently in the Mike Mentzner idea that one only needs to train to total failure every 4 days to get the results. Certainly that would save time but would mean switching from free weights to machines.
Just got promoted from being an Analyst to MD's Office (Strategy) and now I don't stay beyond 7 PM, so have plenty of time in the evening to crank out 2 hour sessions.
Rn on 6D PPL twice or 5D PPL + UL
used to be into powerlifting, I did a push pull legs split and did the ohio state pyramid when I was looking for maxes, otherwise I'd have 3 circuits with 3 movements each (core + 2 accessory) like squats/dead hang from pullup bar/bird dog
Hugh Myron I believe was a big lifter, maybe Thomas Pynchon too
my current split is my favorite, allows me to get 2 a days 2-3x a week
2 or 3 days a week - BJJ with sparring
2 or 3 days a week (sometimes overlapping w/BJJ) - full body circuits w/kettlebells, barbell, dumbbells, or bodyweight. typical circuit might be pullups with weight vest, kettlebell squats, military press, and nordic curls
1 or 2 days a week (sometimes overlapping w/BJJ) - swim or run
every night - yoga for 10-20min
weekends - rest or surf
I modulate that depending on the seasons, I up swimming ahead of hurricane season and winter (about to start this now) so I'll taper off lifting a bit, then once we're into december I'll ramp up lifting more unless I have a surf trip in february or something
this will be my first hurricane season with BJJ so we'll see how that goes
if I were in your shoes, I'd add some mobility. I was into powerlifting to where I got to 2.5x BW in squat, 2x in bench, and >3x in deadlift but I kept going too hard without focusing on mobility and suffered 2 grade 2 muscle tears in my QL (lower back) about 2 years apart. do yoga or come up with a good stretching routine, your 30-something year old self will thank you
Nice routine.
You're definitely right about the mobility work too - in hindsight all but one of my injuries are from the cumulative effect of poor mobility + too much weight. Going to gradually start incorporating a bit of mobility work...as much as I don't want to haha.
I'm sure somebody will tell me this split is suboptimal, but it always wipes me out physically and makes me feel good. Go most mornings before work.
Day 1: Chest & Arms
Day 2: Back
Day 3: Shoulders & Arms
Day 4: Legs
Day 5: Nothing
Frequent light cardio and sauna after workouts, feels good man.
How do you have time for this?
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