Q&A: Dropout -> coding bootcamp -> 100K+

Hi all, I'm currently working in silicon valley tech as a software engineer. I once considered working in finance because I wanted to make big money but clearly couldn't break in without a college degree. I ended up taking the plunge with a coding bootcamp a few years back and managed to pull in a great 6-figure salary for a dropout. I'm here to answer any questions about my career. I hope to convince other ambitious young folk that you don't have to be front office or bust to make good cash out of school. You also don't need to be in big 4 tech, or a HYP CS student to succeed in tech. If you want to work hard, silicon valley needs you and will pay you well for it. Looking forward to any questions.

 
Best Response

I did Ruby / Javascript.

I didn't attend app academy but If i could redo the bootcamp experience, I would definitely shoot for A/a. However they probably wouldn't have let me in as I'd be too high risk for them as a dropout.

You want to find a bootcamp that has a deep dive on javascript as a majority of bootcamp grads end up as front-end developers. These roles typically have a lower bar for entry but have a few quirks that a regular CS student wouldn't have encountered unless they actively studied them. Hence front-end work is an excellent place for bootcamp grads to target as a first job. A huge plus is if your bootcamp teaches Node.js or React.js as they are getting really popular. Keep in mind front-end roles pay just as much as back-end roles for entry level.

Another important thing to look out for is early exposures to data structures / algorithms. IMO This is what sets apart a web developer from a software engineer and positions you for the higher salaried openings. You may never need to use these on the job, but it's culturally ingrained into the interview process. It takes a ton of time to get your critical thinking skills ready for interviews, so look for camps that have daily algorithm sessions. Most bootcamps will offer free algo practice once a week to the public. You may want to check them out and gauge how good the students are.

 

I won't give a name but here are a few big reasons why I chose my camp.

1) Technical depth. The bootcamp I attended had a much tougher interview process than the rest and required some experience with functional programming. Many bootcamps waste their first few weeks teaching basic content that you can practice on codecademy.

2) Career support and interview prep. A lot of other bootcamps just don't help you with the job search. I was impressed by the hiring team at this particular camp and the jobs network they have built. They offered a lot of services like resume building, cover letter reviews, an on-call team that helped you draft negotiations, a private database of interview questions, mock interviews, job referrals, a private job board.

3) Hours on site. Surprisingly, other schools call themselves a bootcamp despite being a 9-5 program. The camp I attended required 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. I was serious about this career transition and I wanted to be with a group of students who felt the same and could dedicate the time no questions asked.

 

4) Small size. This is one of the bigger points. Bootcamps that refuse to heavily expand yet hit all the marks above are likely to be of higher quality. There is a huge incentive to sell out with these camps and its very easy as a student to mix up quality marketing versus quality instruction. Staying small means owners are still in the growth phase where they're dedicated to quality instruction and brand.

That's why I won't give a name. I did my DD on bootcamps a few years ago and that research may no longer hold true anymore. Many bootcamps start with a noble goal of disrupting how software engineering education but will eventually become pump & dump schemes.

Think of it like this. Brand perception is sticky and businesses will come out with a good deal / brand at first as bait then switch into a marketing machine to monetize. Kinda like a John Paulson. You want to get in when Paulson made the Big Short, not now.

 

Thanks for the response. What are your thoughts on Codecademy? Is that where you obtained your "some experience with functional programming"?

In another response, you say that some bootcamps end up becoming pump & dump schemes. Not to egg on badmouthing, but are you referring to any in particular? Which ones should be avoided?

"A modest man, with much to be modest about"
 

I've had several friends do bootcamps and now have pretty solid and nice jobs like you. I see the immense value of them and respect them so please don't take my Q the wrong way.

How do you get to a seven figure salary, bonus potential or payout in your profession/skill set? Would the only real way be to get equity in a business you're working for and hoping it takes off?

Thanks.

"If you want to succeed in this life, you need to understand that duty comes before rights and that responsibility precedes opportunity."
 

I've never heard of a bootcamp grad pulling in 7 figures, however I've heard of startup engineers with no formal CS education pulling large numbers after getting acquired. They currently have enough cash to be real estate or angel investors.

If you want to make really big money in tech, you'll most likely have to go into the CTO / CEO route or get lucky with a liquidation event. Being an amazing programmer will get you far, but I doubt you'll pull in 7 figures.

A big takeaway for anyone reading this is that ultimately technology problems are people problems, and so the paths to riches in the tech industry is just like any other - management.

 
0to100:

A big takeaway for anyone reading this is that ultimately technology problems are people problems, and so the paths to riches in the tech industry is just like any other - management.

How much of management do you see come from a tech background vs those who do not? Ultimately, ideal management would be a person who is both good with people, and has deep industry knowledge, but I would think this is more rare to come by.

I'm about to start doing a little freelance consulting to test some of my management skills in the tech/startup world, but I don't have a tech background whatsoever - I'm just learning as I go. My background is consulting/project management in other industries.

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Joining the right company is very important if you want to keep up to date. Certain companies like uber have their teams divided into independent silos that are allowed to use whatever language / technology they want. This is why many young engineers are willing to take a paycut to work for uber because they are effectively getting paid to learn new tech.

If your company is a bit old fashioned, or you're at a place where tech isn't the main product, taking classes or even attending a more advanced bootcamp is a popular way to stay up to date. Many bootcamp attendees have previous experience in less sexy areas of tech and use the 12 weeks to focus on a certain skill. (This is also why if you're a dropout you shouldn't fully trust the stats bootcamps publish as many candidates were already engineers)

A cheaper alternative is to attend meetups and build personal projects. If you're in a tech hub, its not too hard to find free lessons and networking opportunities to make the switch into a more interesting technology role. There are also plenty of online tutorials, books, and blogs that share valuable lessons. The open source movement means there is always something to do if you're willing to put in time.

The bottom line is successful engineers must truly love to learn new things and proactively seek opportunities. It's very easy to get stuck on some legacy tech and stunt your career growth if you don't keep up with the times. On the opposite end of the spectrum, you can be recruited into top companies when you actively publish your code online, compete in competitions, contribute to large projects, etc.

 

I'm glad you asked this question.

Many bootcamps make you think no prior background is necessary but the truth is background still matters. It's definitely possible to go from car salesman to big 4 tech out of these programs, but you need to work extremely hard and build strong connections. Many of the stats they boast will not apply directly to you, and you can expect to job search much longer than a well polished candidate.

The more quantitative / engineering work from the past the better. A few jobs on your resume is also important. These however just get you into an interview. Like most advice here on WSO, when you're in the interviewing stage, your fit and technicals will matter more, but before then, it's really down to networking.

Networking in tech is much easier however. Meetups and large open-source technologies are all available to the public, so you can network by just attending and working with people on passion projects. There are hackathons and online coding competitions that give you a chance to show off your skills in a lighter setting than a strictly networking event.

The supply and demand for tech talent is also much easier to navigate in tech. Most bootcamp grads are "lucky" in the sense that startups only hire when they need to increase headcount. However, in silicon valley, there is always a startup in need of junior talent and most pay above 100k. Typically they will need to fill these vacancies quickly so training a bootcamp grad right now for 30% less pay can be better than waiting for the "ideal" candidate to come by and engaging in tough salary negotiations. In these situations, you are basically just asking for someone easy to train and takes software engineering seriously.

Lastly, technical questions and brainteasers are much more respected in this field, so if you practice them a lot you will do well. See above post for some beginner suggestions on algorithms.

You are always self taught in programming. There is no way someone can force you to understand code and many concepts are not trivial. You can only lead a horse to water. CS degrees generally train you for theoretical work that is actually very different from real software engineering (though many degrees have a more practical option).

 

Prior to my bootcamp i independently studied a lot of data structures, algorithms, functional and object oriented programming, and some computer architecture. As a dropout this prior experience was really important as my job search would be much more difficult than a college grads search.

Being able to demonstrate strong understanding of the fundamentals and coming out with a stronger pitch than "i've just started coding 3 months ago" helped me a lot during tech screens. It demonstrated that I could learn fast and wouldn't need my hand held if they hired me.

Many of the bootcamp stats include people who basically could've gotten a job without the training, which obviously skew the data quite a bit. However the marketing makes it sound like anyone will land an amazing job after 3 months. Don't fall for this trap.

You shouldn't rely on a bootcamp to just magically make you qualified for a job. You should start working learning the fundamentals on your own and then use the bootcamp as the last push to get you over the bar. The things you want to grab in this last push are basically the professional skills that set you apart from amateurs, not the raw coding talent. You can easily learn coding online.

The people who magically go from newbie to software engineer in 3 months are most likely taking lower salaries (below 100k) and have an ivy league degree.

A good way to see which camp is bullshit is to start interviewing for admissions and seeing which camps reject you. Those that reject you when you are still a completely new probably take their students more seriously.

 

Thanks for doing this. How much value would someone who wants to stay in Finance derive from a bootcamp? It seems like they're all java/ruby/html (i.e. front end or app development) based, as opposed to python/R for data analysis, time series, statistical analysis. I work in semi-quant research role that utilizes SAS, python, and SQL daily, but I dont see a lot of value for these types of bootcamps - do they exist?

 

There are a few data science / data engineering focused bootcamps that you may be interested in. Those curriculums are largely application focused so you won't be diving much into the deep theory behind those subjects.

There definitely is some overlap between data science and quant work, however keep in mind that these bootcamps are most likely trying to place you into a tech firm instead of a quant role. As a result certain parts of the curriculum, like nlp, may not be directly applicable.

 

Do you have previous work experience that you believe to have contributed when getting hired after the Bootcamp or you relied only on the knowlegde you've acquired on it?

I want also to throw in my two cents. If there is someone looking for free material to get your toes wet and rather books than videos or perhaps more substantial (links below):

-Introduction to Programming in Java (and also a Python version), by Princeton University professors Dr. Robert Sadgewick and Dr. Kevin Wayne

-Algorithms 4th Edition (in Java), from the same authors, if you already have a basic understanding of Java or any OOP language.

http://introcs.cs.princeton.edu/java/home/ - Java http://introcs.cs.princeton.edu/python/home/ - Python http://algs4.cs.princeton.edu/home/ - Algorithms http://aofa.cs.princeton.edu/home/ - Introduction to the Analysis of Algorithms by Robert Sedgewick and Philippe Flajolet

 

I had zero work experience beyond unskilled labor and no degree so it was very difficult to navigate certain interview settings. Most of the time I didn't even get an interview. As i mentioned above, background still matters in the job search.

I got my first job by demonstrating I could pick up any technical knowledge they needed by publishing a lot of my code online, documenting my learning progress. My first job rejected me at first but called me back a few weeks later for another role after I kept in touch and continued sending code samples. I made below the average bootcamp grad salary but it will still 6-figures.

Another big selling point was I studied a very technical major and could explain why i dropped out, why it doesn't matter I did so, and why I'm better than a college grad. I could then prove all of that with my performance on algorithms and brain teasers while holding a real conversation.

That's what's wonderful about tech - as long as you're hungry someone will want you and pay you well for it. It really is a dream.

 

Very informative. What's the profile of someone who gets into App Academy? I can currently hack together an MVP of a website like Kickstarter in a couple different frameworks with react on the front end but have no knowledge of data structures and algos. Not sure I'd like being an actual dev but hard to beat the lifestyle flexibility. What are your thoughts on career paths as a product manager? Seems like it might be a better fit for someone with founder/ceo/management aspirations but I could see the pay being lower as it's often nontechnical.

 

You have a good start for something like A/a. A bootcamp will cover a lot of stuff you already know but it'd be beneficial to help you figure out how to make a professional web app instead of a toy project. You'd be going over things like password salting / hashing or Oauth, XSS, build tools, deployment etc. (maybe you know these things already?)

Certain companies like yelp will help their engineers have some PM experience, so you may want to check them out. In my experience, there are 2 kinds of PMs, those that switched from banking / consulting and those that switched from engineering. I generally think the latter is a better PM as dealing with people is often the hardest part of any job, so the ability to sympathize with your team is big.

 

can you speak about the different types of roles available upon completion of these bootcamps ? I know there are both desirable and less desirable roles like being a tester, or front end coder without the design component, but what are your top favored/unfavored roles?

 

Hi. Just to answer some of your questions, do not ever fall into the advertisement saying "x boot camp offers 95% replacement rate" or etc.

Most roles upon the completion of bootcamps are that pay about 60kish, and the roles are not guaranteed.

And, remember that people from HackReactors knew how to code already. Coding is not as easy as you think but not as hard, also.

Most jobs will require you to do same task over and over unless you are extremely talented and prove your skill. I don't see the value of quitting finance job and learn coding unless you are willing to devote at least 1+ year.

I would rather contact start-up companies where the founder is at architect level and offer him to work for free or give financial advise in exchange for the real education. Trust me.. there is no fucking reason to go to bootcamp. You can learn basically everything that bootcamps teach unless they are like HackReactor. I don't even think bootcamp instructors are at Senior engineering level at all.

 
investee:

Hi. Just to answer some of your questions, do not ever fall into the advertisement saying "x boot camp offers 95% replacement rate" or etc.

Most roles upon the completion of bootcamps are that pay about 60kish, and the roles are not guaranteed.

And, remember that people from HackReactors knew how to code already. Coding is not as easy as you think but not as hard, also.

Most jobs will require you to do same task over and over unless you are extremely talented and prove your skill. I don't see the value of quitting finance job and learn coding unless you are willing to devote at least 1+ year.

I would rather contact start-up companies where the founder is at architect level and offer him to work for free or give financial advise in exchange for the real education. Trust me.. there is no fucking reason to go to bootcamp. You can learn basically everything that bootcamps teach unless they are like HackReactor. I don't even think bootcamp instructors are at Senior engineering level at all.

I have had a few friends leave Finance to go into the "start-up" industry. Many failed, most end up jumping or abandoning projects, ultimately it is all about funding and making cash. The risks are not -worth- the investment, and the people I know who recruit for developer roles (from entry level to senior level experience) keeps telling me that only 1% of candidates every make it through from these code schools. They prefer CS graduates or those with a degree or certificate from an institution (extended campuses) for their job openings.

These camps will teach you to code, no doubt there. They will give you the tools to succeed in various languages, but the mathematics/logical trained mind cannot be taught without calculus or the other math fundamentals.

I will say this, nicely done. If you are able to get the job after code camp, is always a positive thing. At the end of the day, it is about putting food on the table and a roof over your head.

 

I'd like to thank investee for voicing his opinion as he highlights some of the tougher stories for bootcamp grads. Here are my thoughts

You're typically looking at a junior role, mostly likely front-end about 70% of the time. Background matters a lot still and being able to prove technical chops, or design chops, is important in order to convince an employer to continue your training.

Usually your previous work history matters and employers are typically looking for some kind of history of success and drive.

You don't need a quantitative background although it is clearly much more respected. A lot of front-end jobs are not about mathematical thinking but rather using the newer front-end frameworks to enforce organized, maintainable, coding practice. These principles aren't hard but can't be taught from a book. They're more like pearls of wisdom that you can only appreciate with some coding experience. And often times your typical CS grad has not practiced the particular frameworks to catch these subtle lessons, despite the heavier technical training.

As you can see, the value in a bootcamp is focusing on a niche skill that is heavily in demand. The market inefficiency is exactly why coding bootcamps can exist.

 

So would you say you already had a mind for technical work such as coding and this helped you get through boot camp? I would like to pursue this but I am not sure whether I have the natural inclination for this sort of thing.

 

Nah. I didn't go to bootcamp and started learning to code about three weeks ago. I do not know much about coding, but I can tell the difference between people at architect level versus just code monkeys. I explained my story below.

My eventual goal is not to become a software engineer, but to be an entrepreneur. You need both soft-skill and hard-skill to be really successful. I have enough connection and money to implement my plan.

Most bootcamps are trash and will admit anyone who pay them $$$. I went to bootcamps that had 5 star reviews (left after an hour of listening to a lecture), none were good enough.

 

I had a mind for technical work which is why I could balance out the dropout part of my story.

In general though, technical experience isn't necessary although it clearly helps a lot. You may need to move to a less competitive job market in a smaller city, or take lower pay, but you can still make good money.

Your main goal from a bootcamp is not to be a mathematical genius, but rather gain experience with a few very important technologies (react.js and node.js especially) that are incredible in demand in the current marketplace, but often not taught in CS curriculums or even other software jobs. Bootcamps are aware of this fact and focus precisely on the few key skills to gain a web development role.

If software engineering as a whole only comprises of the romanticized version of nerds you see on everywhere, then yes you will fail. The comments above about a 1% chance getting into a role like dev ops or data engineering are absolutely true.

However, when you look at front end roles, many engineers think it's actually below them to focus on design and UI. Javascript is a shitty language to them. The irony is google and facebook heavily back these languages and subjects. The web is changing at an incredible pace and the complexity of web development has warranted serious engineering efforts from big 4 tech. It's kinda like how value investments are set up - for some reason classically trained engineers are neglecting this particular market so bootcamp grads pick them up at a bargain (in terms of skill set).

 

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