Hi All - Posting from a throwaway account for anonymity, but wanted to get everyone's thoughts on a relatively new phenomenon I've started experiencing since beginning my role on the buy-side.
My background:
A bit of background on me - traditional path to private equity via a target school and a two year banking stint. Over the summer, I started at a larger upper middle market buyout shop (think 3bn - 10bn fund size). I'll save any Q&A-type discussion for another thread as to not derail the conversation I'm hoping to get into here.
Maybe I've been lucky or maybe I've been ignorant, but up until starting my new role I had never really encountered any sort of cut throat culture or deconstructive competition. Naturally, my degree program in college was competitive, but not in an underhanded way. Similar with my banking stint - the culture was pretty collaborative and open despite people looking out for themselves when the rubber hit the road, which is, again, to be expected.
Since starting my new role, however, I've had some trouble getting used to what seems like deliberate attempts by other associates in my group to throw each other under the bus, take credit for work they didn't do, and shovel work they aren't interested in doing to someone else in a relatively transparent fashion (transparent to me, at least).
**A few more specific situational examples below to give a better sense of what I'm referring to.** (Note: A1, A2, and A3 are just shorthand and are not meant to indicate the seniority of the associates I'm referring to.)
1) Taking credit for my work / throwing me under the bus
Working on a summary with another associate (A1). I build the model and make the output. Prior to meeting with the VP and Principal, A1 comes in my cube and asks to go over the drivers and my rationale for the assumptions I've chosen, so I explain my thought process. Upon meeting with the VP and Principal, A1 takes over the conversation (usually speaking over me as I attempt to participate) and says things like "I was thinking [verbatim what I told them] when I put this assumption in" and "I had read [a research report I referenced to A1], so I thought this assumption made sense." When the VP asks why we used a certain growth rate because it seemed too high/low, A1 turns to me and says "Ya, why DID you use that growth rate? That doesn't really make sense". **Punchline here** is taking my original work and research, packaging it as their own, and throwing me under the bus for the questions.
2) Co-worker doing half the work claiming it as their own
Working on a company profile with another associate (A2). We both pull together a few slides, which take approximately the same amount of time. A2 tells me to send them my slides so they can consolidate and we can review together. Instead of sending back the consolidated pack, they send out to the broader team referencing only themselves as the author ("I compiled this", "I read the attached reports", "I completed x calls with industry experts"). **Punchline here** is A2 doing half the work and claiming the whole package as their own.
3) Co-worker shovels work off to me
About every week A3 comes to my cube to chat, coming across as extremely friendly and just wanting to catch up. The conversation is about 1/3 pleasantries and 2/3 A3 trying to keep tabs on what I'm working on and what my capacity is. About 1/3 of the way into the conversation A3 always asks "so what were you up to this weekend", and if the answer is anything other than "I was here in my cube all weekend" A3 responds with "Oh so it sounds like you have some capacity. That's great because I am working on x, y, and z and it'd be great if you could take some if it". After that, A3 always asks what I'm working on and who is on the deal teams. After two instances of telling A3 about only one of my deals and getting staffed up on one of A3's old deals about 15 minutes after A3 left my cube, I've learned to just give a laundry list of every single project I'm working on as to avoid giving A3 the opportunity to use my workload against me. **Punchline here** is A3 transparently keeping tabs on my capacity and deal teams to shovel work off to me (or other associates who I don't reference as being on my deal team).
I'm not sure if I have done a good job articulating each scenario here without going into minute-by-minute recounts of the conversations, but in general I am seeing a lot of credit-grabbing and tab-keeping. This is an entirely new challenge I've never needed to deal with before so I am hoping the WSO community can share some pointers or some of their experience dealing with this type of associate culture.
Please let me know if I can give any more detail to paint a better picture. Not aiming to complain here - I'm genuinely looking for some guidance in navigating my new role.
Thank you all for the help!
This does not sound normal at all, PE is banking 2.0 esp. at a big fund (which yours seems to be) so there is a usually ton of camaraderie between the associates in a "we're all in this together" kind of way. Also most PE firms are 1 associate per deal team so I'm surprised that you have another associate on your team often (even at the megafunds), is the goal that because you are new you are learning from them at first and then they will transition the project to you?
Seems like the firm hired some bad apples you need to protect yourself here - find 1-2 VP or senior associate level hires who can vouch for you and see how they feel about those associates - you'll be surprised, good mid-level professionals can tell if an associate is backstabbing/playing politics pretty easily and it reflects extremely poorly on the associate, not positively.
Just call them out. Next time they take credit, intervene and let them know your contribution. You literally have nothing to lose. The associates have zero power (contrary to what they think).
Ya I see what you're saying. If that really is the game, then calling them out in front of the senior folks won't seem strange at all. If it comes off poorly and someone says something, then it's the perfect opportunity to a) tell them to back off (if the associate approaches me) or b) explain what is going on (if a senior guy approaches me).
Right. We've all been in that scenario. Associates can't really assign you work. If you don't have time then just express that. Next time the dude tells you "looks like you have availability" say, "actually I'm at full capacity and can't take on anything else in the short-term. I'll let you know if anything changes." Next time a dude asks you, during a meeting, "not sure why YOU did that," just respond with, in a very calm way, "well I'm not sure why you're punting this input to me. We sat down on multiple occasions and in detail discussed the inputs and assumptions put into my model. We've also discussed the research that I put together." Then turn to the VP and say "we can look into it and we'll send you a revised version shortly after this meeting."
You can choose how to handle it but again, realize that associates aren't your bosses. Put them in their place so that they don't fuck with you again.
Lmao I would head-kick A1 the little cunt
I dealt with this nonsense during my SA stint and made clear to my analyst class when i went full-time (at another bank) that any cutthroat nonsense would be dealt with mercilessly
We're all little flower girls now operating as a cohesive roman phalanx. Sometimes it's better to address all problems before the plane leaves the runway
Confrontation would generate an underlying awkwardness to the workplace -- I'd reciprocate the gesture and once they get the message they might lower their spears
Btw, Romans did not use phalanxes. They did use the hoplite formation very early in history, then moved the the manipular legionary and eventually the cohort.
Rome is notable for being the power that beat the Macedonian phalanx used by successor kingdoms.
Esuric gave probably the best and most level headed/reasonable response you're going to get from anyone regards to how to handle it while taking the high road. And before I go on, this is exactly how you should probably handle this. However, I'll indulge the would be saboteurs and sadistic side by giving you an alternative option in the event that the diplomatic route fails (somewhat tongue in cheek but the below are doable out of great necessity):
A1) Depending on if this would be warranted/feasible based on team structure, if you wanted to be really maniacal, you could ask the VP to talk about the model/assumptions beforehand and get his brief feedback prior to the formal meeting - then make special notes of any negative criticism. Save the negative feedback, then work the negative feedback into your logic/explanation you give to the other associate. Then when he goes off trying to explain it, he will basically be reiterating everything that the VP hated about your original information. The dude won't be able to tattle on you because if he did, he would admit that he was taking the credit/didn't do his own homework, and he will end up looking like a dumbfuck. Or if you don't feel like being that manipulative, just email him a summarized version of what you discussed, then BCC the VP. If he goes on with the charade, he will obviously out himself.
A2) Put incorrect numbers in the presentation slides you send to this person the next time. In the email, say that you think it's close but you want to review one more time before he sends. Concurrently with sending this out, draft an email saying that you found a mistake in the report, but turn off your outlook so that when you send this it gets stuck in your outbox, then cancel the send. If he sends out the report while taking credit, then you can correct the mistakes and resend to the group, and just say that you caught some errors and wanted to make sure everyone had the most up to date info. If he balks or complains to your superiors, you can just say you tried to send him an email but it didn't send, and you have a back-up record of that. Either way, he looks like an asshole at worst or incompetent at best.
A3) Next time this person comes to your cube, and every time going forward, keep track of how much time they spend talking to you. At the end of a month of sample if this doesn't stop, go to your staffer and say that you're worried about A3 because they've spent about x amount of time at your desk and don't know if they have enough to work on. Again, if this douchebag confronts you, you can just feign ignorance and say you wanted to make sure they weren't bored because they had so much free time to come over and chat with you/your team.
Happy holidays!
1) Your experience is atypical and not a function of being in PE (I was at two diff PE funds and never experienced this). I don't think what you described however is an IBD or PE or another finance subsector problem, it's a company specific problem.
2) The good news is all this throwing-under-the-bus shit is usually done by those who are themselves incompetent and thus insecure of their own abilities. Your VPs have most likely spent more time than you in the workforce and they're too sharp/savvy to not easily catch this (even if they seem to be ignoring it on the surface)
3) The even better news is SMARTS ultimately always prevail, and the only thing that matters is the passage of time for others to recognize them in someone eventually. Your VPs/MDs/Partners don't just have your deal's datapoint to evaluate your associate colleagues. People are always having conversations in hallways, meetings, lunch etc and each associate typically gets to work with several different people. So there's multiple ways to make a solid impression or conversely ruin it if you're not up to snuff
4) While the manipulation ideas above were hilarious, I suggest it's better not to invest your energy and time trying to figure all that out and try and play mind games. Never a good use of time. If you're better than them, it ll shine thru in your individual work
5) It sounds like you're all still relatively new here. See what happens in the next 12-18 months as associates naturally get more jaded on the job. This will likely automatically stop.
4)
A Psychologist by training, put brain, sports, behavioral and biophysiological sciences to work with competitive clients to enable them to work at top levels- individually and collectively. I play the role of "Wendy"--the Psychiatrist in Billions who sees dynamics between and within people and offers the Gretzky assist to enable them to hurdle their obstacles. Clients span industries from sports to Capitol Hill, finance to manufacturing. Here is what science tells us--as soon as you put two people in a room, there is a natural defensive response--we release a stronger drip of the natural chemical cocktail that readies us for fight/flight/freeze-in-fright modes. When we 'perceive threat'--and threat like beauty is in the eyes and brain of the beholder--we release a stronger version of this natural cocktail. At deluge strength, this cocktail ramps up our hearts, tightens our backsides and heads. We then call those seeming to threaten us 'pains in the lower backside' or accuse them of giving us headaches. It also leads us to hurl people under buses, to flee and claim credit for others' contributions, to hurl barbed words and daggered looks that could kill. Brain scan technology alerts us that this same cocktail dousing body and brain also shuts down the front part of the brain, the most highly evolved part of the brain that enables higher level thinking and enables us to collaborate, consider ideas that differ from our own, and to entertain and implement strategic change.
And all of this is, oddly, natural. It's a holdover from days when we were furrier and other creatures or plants that looked or smelled novel or different could be a threat- to our lives. So we stomped them out (as we do with novel ideas) and we killed them to ensure the survival of our selves and offspring and ensure out contributions to the gene pool. You are seeing human nature at its most basic--and worst--with people who perceive threat versus contribution in you--and others.
What you can do? Maintain your standards and keep your heart beating (a ramped up heart means a shut down frontal brain) to keep your smarts about you. Constructively comment to people when they have taken credit or done bus hurling. Let them know you saw it and that it's not your way of operating.
Then...Assess whether these norms are rewarded as behaviors that ensure success in your culture. If this culture is one where operating out of perceived threat and competition versus collaboration is the norm, you might want to start shopping for a culture where such mindsets and behaviors are not standard fare or rewarded. Good news is--those that choose to operate with frontal brains engaged will gain short-term wins and stay in it for the long run. It's the key to peak performance in sports, business, politics, and life!
People are trying to test your boundaries, so you need to be direct and set them.
For #1, good advice has been given, it basically boils down to not letting this guy walk all over you. You don't need to talk over him, just wait until he's done and then you should be able to talk more in detail to answer whatever questions the seniors have if it's something that you did.
For #2, I'd bring it up to him and next time we work on something together... guess who's not sending out the email to the team?
The third is actually pretty easy - simply deny and the key is this: DO NOT JUSTIFY. The simplest response is just "Sorry too busy to talk." If he says it'd be great if you took on some of his work, just say "Sorry, can't. Gotta get back to work, let's catch up later" then don't. You can also just call him out on his shit - "Stop keeping tabs on me and my work. If you're overstaffed, go talk to the staffer."
The main thing is that if you don't stick up for yourself, no one will. So don't be a doormat.
Was in a smiliar situation a 4 years ago. I have a consulting background (MBB) 2 years before going to a firm that was terrible. From target UG (H,Y,Columbia), top tier masters economics.
Little background. Left consulting due to travel and wanted to do a part time MBA told the PE shop I was going to that I was already accepted and committed to doing my MBA and that it was weekends. They said it would not be a problem since it was a weekend program. There were numerous red flags prior to joining and joining
#1 - prior to my first day I asked about work attire as consulting is normally business casual. During my interviews everyone was in slacks and a button down. I was told prior to my first day numerous times attire was business casual and I showed up my first day and got a lecture from two idiot associates about how we all need to be in suits and ties. I let them know that a VP and a MD told me business casual after that I was labeled as a back talker with a bad attitude.
#2 - first day one of those associates goes off at lunch about how he put in his two weeks and how much the firm sucks. Huge red flag but this same associate made my life miserable for 6 months
#3 - I had class my third weekend at the firm. I sent numerous emails stating I had class those weekends. I am in class and during my lunch break I have 20 missed calls from my office from both associates asking where I was. They even went to apartment to look for me. Huge red flag! Keep in mind we had no actual work to do that weekend these associates liked to pretend that they did work at the office on weeks aka "grinding" as they put it. In reality they goofed off and watched sports.
At this point I started passively looking for a new job.
#4 - my first day one of our large investors sons whose right out of a bottom 300 school is there showing up for his first day. The guy was one of the dumbest people I have met. Nobody knew he was coming. Huge red flag.
#5 - fast forward to my 3 month mark and the partner who hired me pulls me into his office and berates me about how I am a problem child at this firm and that some associate said I messed up on "xy&z" and some VP I never talked to said I messed up on a bunch of models and that I had a bad attitude.
I had never spoken to this VP at all. I state my case and he said I better watch my back because he has his sites on me and he will fire me the first chance he gets.
At this point I call the recruiter who got me this job and tell him what's going on. He said "dang not another one. You are the 4th guy I've placed at this firm that has this happen" at this post i start actively interviewing
#6 - the final red flag the same partner who called me into his office starts harassing me and calling me at night after 10 pm telling me I better be running models all night and earning my keep or he will fire me.
Giant red flag at this point I completely check out. The two associates who I had problems with where clearly politicking against men behind my back but to my face they were incredibly nice. I realized this fast.
#7 - After 6 months i landed an offer through OCR through my MBA program and put in my two weeks. Didn't really care and do not put this firm on my resume.
Had an exit interview and it was weird. All the problems of the firm that were omnipresent before I joined were blamed on me and I was told the firm will run so much smoother without me. I left immediately after that and didn't even stay the whole two weeks.
#8 what's happened to those coworkers?
One of the associates who was a complete prick got fired a year later went to another firm and got fired after 6 months for being a total douche. He's currently at another firm we are in a JV with and about to get fired again. He recently called and asked me if I would refer him to my firm since we are hiring.
The VP who said I had a bad attitude left went to another firm and got fired after a few months.
The partner who was a complete douche emailed me a dozen times after I left and I never responded. Mainly asking for favors. I ran into him once and didn't give him the time of day but he suggested we grab coffee and catch up. After that I got a bunch of texts and never responded. Not really interested in having coffee with a complete POS.
#9 - where am I now?
I'm at a mega fund and a VP now. Completed my MBA and CFA. I look at those 6 months of hell of constant harassment and individuals with low morales as a stepping stone. Eventually they will leave and go to a new firm and get what they have coming to them. My advice is move on and do not take their phone calls or emails. It's too small of an industry to be a prick because I get asked all the time what I think of their firm by LPs.