In light that a lot of women found my March 5th post on the "WOMEN IN PE - Easier Recruiting?" thread useful I took someone's offer to start an AMA. I can't link because this is a new account. I will try to check and answer questions as my schedule permits. Currently there's a bit less going on at work so I thought I'd take advantage of it.
You can read the original post in the link above that will give you a lot more background but just to reiterate I'm about a year out of my H/S/W MBA, work on the buyside at a well known investor (let's keep it at that), I'm several years married, almost 30, expecting a child. Happy to talk about MBA recruiting, career options, how to diligence a fund before you sign, private life and dating in general, negotiating as a woman, pregnancy and anything else you are thinking about but are afraid to ask your female colleagues.
Note to mod: please feel free to move it to the forum that is most appropriate.
It really depends on what you're looking to do. Here are some general observations and TBH I'm not sure to what extent covid has changed it.
First-year recruiting for internships for people looking to work on the buyside investing or really any structured path (e.g. banking / consulting / corporate) is really intense. You get a ton of open events, sign-up events through clubs and private requests for meetings through the resume book and if you want to interview, I'd say you must show up and act educated and interested. This is in addition to general networking, interview prep (esp. for consulting and public markets, to some extent PE), clubs, social stuff and academic work. Depending on your goals it can literally consume your life. People who were specific in their priorities (e.g. midsize midwestern PE funds, hedge funds in Hong Kong or consulting firms in US) and truly dedicated were often the ones who ended up with their first/second choice and some options to spare at the end of the recruiting process. I'd also add that the competition for interviews can be pretty intense. For some of the jobs, I'm not exaggerating, like 1/6 of the class had applied to interview, but they only had spots for 5-10 people so you really must work to get the interview in the first place. In many cases I saw, interviews were just a formal process and the firm had met the candidates so many times that the only thing they can do to sway the decision is to screw up in that final hurdle. There are still people who end up getting jobs after the big structured recruiting process, but if I 'd estimate, my guess would be it's less than half and mostly people interested in startups/niche industries that don't come on campus etc.
Second-year recruiting is a lot less structured and there tend to be two waves. One at the beginning of the year where firms seem more opportunistic and basically either fill their programs for the year (consulting, big corporates etc.) and/or pick up the top candidates which for some reason slipped through the cracks (top candidates with changing priorities, ones who previously turned down offers or never applied in first place). The second wave is basically at the end of second semester when jobs that need to be filled within the next 3 months start surfacing. In between there is a lot of whitespace during which people end up doing networked searches and ultimately find their role. This is a surprisingly large number of people. I'd say at least half if not more didn't end up working for their summer employer. I'd say very few (aside from international consultants and some PE) end up working for their pre-MBA employer.
Qualified women and black candidates are highly sought after for the buyside roles especially when it comes to internships. This is perhaps less true for full-time roles where taking a chance on a "non-traditional" hire can turn out to be more costly, but still - I wouldn't underestimate the application advantage to these jobs. I once was copied on an e-mail from HR that I should've never seen that broke down the stats for applicants of a certain job (also open to the outside) I had applied to. It was hundreds of people, like 1% black and maybe 4-6% female. Given that there's a push for say 30% female representation it should give you an idea of the edge that being URM can give you in recruiting.
Recruiting for the creme de la creme firms happens pretty much exclusively through resume books. If you believe you're gonna land an interview at one of the very highly coveted HF or PE MF that seem to recruit at your school regularly on the basis of linkedin searches just by the virtue of being at HSW you're SOL. Most of these jobs were never posted on the online application portal and you either got invited to chat/apply, were introduced by somebody or you heard somebody else was.
This is great. Thank you for sharing your time and perspective.
There have been a couple other threads I have enjoyed seeing and learning from (the "Women Of WSO, When Did You Decide To Have Children And Why, If At All?" comes to mind), but not many.
1) Evaluating a firm for a partner-track role, what are the things you look for that indicate it is or may be somewhere you're comfortable as a woman?
2) What are the best benefits or perks someone could offer that would show the firm's leadership was thoughtful about how to support parents who also work? I say parents rather than just women because it's always irked me that someone would by default assume me to be a less involved parent or someone who does or should work more than my future wife or partner. Paid embryo-banking? Childcare stipend? A protected (firmly, not in name) hour during the day for school drop-off or pick-up? A lactation room?
3) Do you have any kind of formal or informal peer networking or support group of women in the industry? I recently learned about Synergist Network.
I appreciate your generosity here.
Good questions!
1) You know this is very tough to say, because so few people actually make it from VP/Senior Associate to partner because of the pyramid structure of investment firms. I'm also at the bottom of the proverbial ladder so take what I say with a grain of salt. With that said I had to make a decision and I actually decided to pull the plug from my summer employer, where I did not feel comfortable as a woman despite everything they told me of how supportive they were.
For me it was a process of ruling out negative factors mostly. In most cases, there were just tons of red flags, which told me that this is not the right place and most of the time these things are pretty damn out in the open. Look at the website, how much of their investment staff are women? I know it's a chicken and an egg problem, but if a a 10+ person investment staff fund doesn't have a single woman it's likely a symptom of a bigger problem - probably there's something inherently wrong with culture and/or recruiting process. Then take the interactions at a face value and you'll often see senior men being openly misogynistic after a few drinks or women who you would not want to be like in your forties/fifties. Would I want to be around them 12+ hours a day? Would they even respect me and my opinion? Hearing how some of these men spoke about their wives told you everything you needed to know. You ask people about their hobbies, do they even have any? What about families? Also, women talk and especially in business school you hear a lot of horrifying stories about certain funds and their cultures. Beyond that you could try to get the hands on mat leave policy etc. and see how much leave people actually take. To be fair, in most cases you don't even get to that stage.
In the case of my summer employer, these things did not come out during recruiting and my key contact person is just a fantastic guy that made me assume that everybody must be like that :). When I actually spent the summer, I had multiple very senior men openly trying to discuss my private life and theirs (in a NOT good way) rather than my investment views or whatever the intended topic of the discussion was. It was clear to me that I wouldn't be taken seriously at a professional capacity. The women that I saw working for the fund were either single or had house-spouses and always looked on the edge of a nervous breakdown. I was on the edge of a nervous breakdown that summer too and I felt warned enough after those few months.
In another fund, I passed rounds and rounds of highly technical interviews to get a job on the investment side, and in the end I spoke with some hotshot ex-banker dude who does fundraising for them and he asked me if I'd like to be his protege salesperson. I am almost certain that this wouldn't have been the case if I was a guy or frankly a highly unattractive woman.
2) This will probably vary from person to person, but the most obvious is a generous leave policy that doesn't impair your comp (incl. bonus) or career progression and senior people actually take it too. Others I can immediately think of are childcare credit that is actually significant, discounts on domestic services (e.g. weekly cleaners) or anything else that saves time. Flex work hours are probably also pretty important and my own manager is actually pretty good with taking time out in the day (and being vocal about it) for his kids. I thankfully didn't need to take advantage of any fertility-related services, but I've heard they're generally already pretty well covered by insurance. This will be a bit controversial perhaps, but I think what would really help retain employees and especially women would be the "permission" to have children earlier in life. I feel especially in the US there is this premise that you ought to have kids in this odd window between not too junior and not too senior. I think the best time to have kids from a business standpoint is actually while employees are junior, because it's easier and cheaper to replace an analyst/associate than replacing a director. Anyways, my 2c.
3) My female friends in business school have been very helpful and we stay in touch, although there are not that many women in investing and they're often the lone ranger type of personalities. Also there are women at my workplace. I don't seek out formal mentorship, but there are quite a few women (both junior and senior to me) I catch up with frequently and I think they are all super impressive. The alumni groups and also the women's group at work sometimes put up interesting events that I attend but I am not very actively involved with either.
Thanks! Most women take between 4-6 months and the first four are fully paid. I think there's an option to take longer, but that's unpaid. Some people do that. Granted, I have not been here for too long, but my read is that you'd probably be judged if you didn't take the first four.
I believe paternity leave is 8 weeks, but I'm not too sure. You can also take longer, but it's unpaid. I haven't witnessed anyone taking it so far, but I don't know of anyone who is expecting on the male side. On a side note, I'm basically forcing my husband's hand to take his. He works for a different fund and they recently updated their policy to reflect the current standard and he's having cold feet at being among the first men to do it. He's maybe two grades above me or so, and I keep telling him that he's gotta take it for the team and start normalizing it. He's on board!
I honestly really enjoyed dating and saw it as a game that you can master. I've found that most men are pretty simple creatures and they frankly have zero interest whether you went to an Ivy league school, how much you make or who you know in the industry. Are you cute and fun to be around, do you take care of yourself, do you make him feel attractive and put a smile on his face? It's a totally different domain with a totally different skillset and one that is in many ways more interesting than the professional world. While I was in a few serious relationships before I met my husband, the times that I just spent in between dating a bunch of different people were always my favorite. Romantic relationships teach you a lot about yourself and people in general, if you're open-minded and pay attention and learn from your experiences.
I met my husband in my early-mid twenties a few years before business school and he's a bit older than me. At the time I was not doing investing professionally but had an otherwise very interesting and demanding job. When we met he earned a multiple of what I did, but now it's more like a percentage difference. Let's just say I contribute significantly to our joint household income. In a few years, I'll probably outearn him because I'm arguably in a more lucrative market niche and probably from a pure credentials view in the long run it looks like he will have "married up". You could call him a growth investor I suppose ;)
From a philosophical standpoint, I don't really care how much my husband makes as long as together we make enough and I feel like the lifestyle is working for both of us. I don't think he's the type to stay at home, but if at some point he raised his hand, I don't think I'd mind. I know women who fall on both sides of the spectrum of this debate and salivate over their new date's resume, and others who are pretty happy to date architects, corporate types or teachers. That is to say, don't jump to early conclusions and if you find someone more credentialed than you attractive make a move. You miss 100% of shots you don't take!
Thanks for doing this OP.
Do you have an single female friends? Anywhere in the age range between 19 - 45 would be ideal. Thanks in advance!
Yeah I don't think most women know how to take a joke.
IME the people for whom mentorship really helps with their career progression are the cases where somebody takes them under their wing as an apprentice. I've been in a professional setup like it a long time ago, but it's not always easy to replicate in my experience. Typically you'd work for them directly as an employee and they'd be very invested in your career success. The best way I've seen someone do this is by basically following a fast-rising manager around as they change areas of focus or even funds. Think, Pete Peterson & Steve Schwarzman. Often that initial manager assignment is sheer luck, but I think you could possibly try to engineer it. My impression is that there's always some factor that makes you just so much better and more trustworthy than anyone else they get to work with and you have little control over your competition, especially if you choose to go to a big org.
To be honest, I am personally not very good with generating or maximizing that setup. I've been in a setup like this once, with someone who was already C-level, but I got there by the sheerest and most unbelievable dumb luck. While I really enjoyed it and learnt a lot, I was ultimately looking to exit the said industry pretty much shortly thereafter to move into investing, again through a good dose of luck.
I’m way better at utilizing networks than I am at schmoozing with the right people, but it’s more just finding and leveraging the right (human) resources not mentorship. Most of the things you learn that way is tactics that you can use to accomplish a specific goal or maximize the likelihood of a certain outcome. I'd also add that while I might seek advice from someone in a certain domain where they’re accomplished, I won't necessarily think highly of them as authority figures beyond that domain. There are a lot of people that have helped me at certain times, that I respect but wouldn't necessarily be friends with. Hope that makes sense.
I think the best career advice that I've gotten has almost always been observed, rather than given to me because people talk whatever makes them feel good, but what do they really do and what were the things that drove their success? There are a couple of things I've learnt that have stayed with me and helped me get the "macro" pieces right.
Choose your manager, not your job. Make sure he likes you, you at least respect him and perhaps often overlooked, but that also his/her manager likes him/her too. Working for someone not well-liked can stall your career even if they're otherwise great and talented.
Choose geography, industry, niche, people you work with, and only then job - go where you see the most compelling opportunity set given your present and projected future needs. Be honest about your needs to yourself and it will put you on a path towards personal fulfillment - so many people are not and are still trying to impress their parents, friends and strangers.
If you're looking for stability go to a place that offers it - jurisdictions with a good labor law, benefits, healthcare etc., stable employer and then choose the best people you can work with.
If you're looking for growth and career success, go to an industry/niche/fund that's growing fast. Rising tide lifts all boats. Going to a fast-growing fund and sticking it out till the end is literally the most common way I've seen people rise to the top.
If you're at a phase of your life where you're looking to maximize your net worth, move to a place with high incomes and most importantly low taxes. At one place I worked the people in HK earned twice the net salary than people in London. If you're pulling 7+ figs, it's a massive difference and your costs typically don't grow nearly as fast as net salary in low tax jurisdictions.. If maximizing net worth was my objective I knew where I'd want to work.
Life is a very iterative process and little happens overnight. Some things you'll work very hard for and will be multi-year or perhaps decade-long projects until you get the pieces right, others will fall into your lap seemingly out of nowhere. The former prepares you for taking advantage of the latter so you can't really skip the work, but you can absolutely minimize it by not going the extra mile on things that no longer matter and focusing most of your energy on achieving your personal objectives.
Also contrary to what people say, you absolutely have to manage the appearances and care greatly about them. Investing business is about judgment and you have to *project* good judgment in every aspect of your life. I've seen people not promoted or even fired because they demonstrated poor judgment in some non-work-related domain of their life.
Managing personal relationships is always harder than managing a single career, especially with two career-minded people. At least half of the time we've been in a long-distance relationship and it's very tough, because the point of a relationship is, well, to be together. I very much tailored my business school experience to sustain my relationship. We'd see each other every other weekend and then all of the holidays. You could say it cut into my b-school experience, but frankly, I have no regrets because I see that time as an investment into the most important relationship I have with another person in my life.
Because of our long-distance period, we've really prioritized living together above all else. We've both turned down attractive job offers that would require us to move to a place where the other person's career would likely take a hit. Ultimately, our current situation is a joint sacrifice that we've agreed to be for the next few years that combine a few of our individual and joint goals, but likely won't be long-term optimal. We negotiated to arrive at this setup for over a year and then it took another year to execute.
I'm not going to lie, sometimes it gets very hard and I know from friends' anecdotes marriage is no easy arrangement for most people. With that said, it gets better over time as you learn to negotiate better with each other and learn about each other's needs and dreams. We've also worked with personal and couple's therapists to help address some problems that we've had, but unlike most people I see it as a positive sign - both of us are committed to addressing our problems rather than sweep them under the rug.
We are definitely going to hire full-time help for the baby from early on to reduce stress in our relationship and given our unpredictable hours, we will also have a full-time+ nanny for when both of us are back to work. My husband will take a significant time off to help and even be the primary caregiver for some time before I go back to work. He wants to be an involved dad (his wasn't) and I think it's really important that if/when I need to travel he can assume the primary responsibility for the child. I am extremely lucky, because he wants to be a parent and I think will make a fantastic dad.
As for the H/S/W question, I think I just fell into a bunch of buckets of what they were looking for/missing in the class they were forming and I hit the medians on most of the stats they report. I also had a pretty interesting story, but I know people of superior intelligence and accompishment with more interesting stories who never applied. To be absolutely honest with you, most of the people at these schools are not some divine creatures, but maybe above average successful young professionals. There are some but still very few truly interesting/impressive persons with unbelievable life stories in those schools. The majority are still people in finance, consulting, and corporates who followed the rules maybe marginally better than the rest of the applicants from their demographic pools.
Almost certainly more than you ;)
It has been difficult, but not impossible. It's very important that you trust each other and speak openly about your feelings and experiences. Figure out activities you can do with each other (grabbing lunch, gym time) and if possible and appropriate also move in together. Spending time together and conversation are the two currencies of a relationship. You'll be tied up with work so you have to figure out how to maxmise the amount and quality of the time you spend with each other.
My advice is to try to get more than a handful of interactions. Speak with ex-employees, especially women and if possible figure out how to meet the team in a less formal setting. Stalk the team members on social media, do they have families? What does their spouse do? What does the google search turn up? See if you can find videos of speeches, panels etc. from conferences. How do they come across? It's no different than properly diligencing a company - you just really want to understand the types of personalities involved and how they think. Pay more attention to track record than their words. Most of the time people tell you exactly who they are if you pay attention. Trust your instincts - if something comes across as weird, creepy or just doesn't sit right, consider yourself warned. Sometimes you only have bad options - then go with the least bad one and start building an exit plan from day 1 or if possible keep looking/create more opportunities for yourself.