You make $100K with great WLB/culture - how much $ to change that?
I read on another post that some firms have great WLB & culture, but then those firms also pay less. Of course this is true, but it made me rethink my thoughts on comp.
So I want to propose the this scenario and see what others think:
You make $100K all-in in a mid-career role (let's say mid/late 20's) doing work you enjoy and that's challenging but not overwhelming. Your pay (and title) will consistently scale up to, say, $225K all-in in 10 years and plateau from there with minor bumps in pay from then on. Your work schedule is fully flexible, including hours and WFH; you just have to work an avergae of 40 hours a week and go into the office 4x a year. Your colleagues are collegial: you have a good working rapport with your direct superior, who lets you run with things and isn't micromanaging, everyone is generally respectful and does their part, minimal office politics. You work in a Class B+ office in a tertiary/secondary office with little other employee incentives than breakroom snacks and a 401k.
Now consider this scenario:
You're also mid-career and enjoy your work BUT... you work an average of 70 hours/week, but a minimum of 55 hours, with most of this time spent in a Class A office in a primary (maybe secondary) market. You're in office 9:00am-6pm, 5 days a week - at minimum and often longer. You work from home only when you get back from the office in the evenings or if working in the early mornings. Your boss is uptight and demanding, often checking your work behind you or "digging in" when he finds an issue with anything you've done; he doesn't berate or demean you but he will make a point of telling you to shape up or asking how you could've made such a poor decision. Office politics are ever-present with analysts all the way up to MD's vying for their spot in the hierarchy; there's a heightened feeling of tension most days. Your coworkers keep you at an arms' distance and always remain professional with you, for better or worse.
So - how much today and how much would you need to scale up to in the next 10 years, for you to stay at this job?
You don’t have to make this compromise. There are options in between.
But the job you listed is a $350-$400k cash role as an associate and probably $1.2mm (some portion of this is carry) as a director type role
Are you referring to IB? That would seem high for RE associates right?
Yeah it’s high for RE but certain intense shops will pay that much. My firm is slightly below that level in pay but we don’t grind as hard as the description OP listed
I would say 2x.
So if we are figuring 225k at the more "cushy" job, then I would want ~500k at the "harder" job. I would think about is as almost 2x the work + a premium for the people.
I would also suggest that I wouldn't work there for more than a couple of years and then switch somewhere else using the higher salary as justification for getting paid more.
I think Mr. Cheese probably has the right approach to this question and I agree that 2x would probably be a good tipping point, but man...talk about choosing between two shit options.
Clocking in and working for someone else 10 years from now in both scenarios? Yuck.
Edit: Hah, appreciate the monkey shit. Always funny to see RE people embrace the wage cage.
@CRE don’t worry about the MS I feel what you mean by working for someone else.
Don’t get me wrong I’m super blessed to have a good job in this environment with a company culture that is basically as good as it gets - BUT a part of me still absolutely abhors the fact that everything is set in stone no matter what (hours, pay, etc) and is at the end of the day just a grind for someone else.
Only thing that keeps me going is that I’m still relatively young and have patience/energy to hopefully someday create something of my own and slowly build the lifestyle I dream of
I make 150k all in pretty chill job and good coworkers. Would take a job at a larger fund if I could make 250k+ all in with the expectation of meaningful raises and responsibility going forward. Part of it is wanting faster career growth. Part of it is having to support some other people in my family and the additional money short term would definitely help.
I'm 26 and essentially in the exact situation described in Scenario 1, except I'm in office 3 days per week. Had some longer days last year, when volumes were high, but I'm working maybe 40 hours a week the last few months.
I'd need current comp to be $225-250K to accept the situation outlined in Scenario 2. Especially now that I've got a nearly 1 year old daughter at home. WLB has become far more important to me than it was just a few years ago.
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I am in scenario 1 but with 55 hours per week and good pay. I would need more than 2x, such as 2.5x, for me to be in scenario 2. It’s just so critical for me when deciding to take a new job that I not give up my life to work and have one outside of work.
However, I do already have the finances to support not needing to take a very high paying job at the cost of WLB/culture, so I could see that your multiple could be lower if you’re starting from a lower financial basis in addition to other factors
you make $100k? ':-)
Agreed with the multiple of 2x on this as said above.
As someone who has worked in shitty jobs and cultures and now is on a team and boss I wouldn’t trade the world for, culture is 90% of whether you’ll like a job or not
Left IB (essentially #2 scenario) as an analyst for a corporate job (#1 but a bit more than 100k all-in). People and culture is magnitudes better and includes a very WFH-friendly policy and very hands off direct superior especially right now during the holidays where I'll work at my own pace as long as communicated deadlines are met. Could easily be here longer-term due to culture but can't lie the comp hit and the slower comp progression moving forward is a bit tough to swallow. Comp hit is pretty minimal right now as a junior but obviously becomes more noticeable over several years which is something I've been thinking more about.
Controversial take and probably going to get off topic--work life balance is a false idol. We're designed to work really hard and make great relationships. No one is remembered for their ability to be "balanced" (whatever that actually means at the end of the day). There are plenty of people out there who work very, very hard and are the happiest people you've ever met (I can think of plenty personally). If the real question is, how much additional income would it require to join a new company knowing it has bad culture/leadership (people trying to take other people out, incentive misalignment, poor managers/lack of accountability, paranoia/lack of job security, lack of buy in from seniors/skin in the game, etc), the answer is make me CEO and let's turn the organization around. Anything else is an easy no thank you, life is too short to invest your time into chaotic organizations where you can't deliver a positive impact. Like Warren Buffet said: "Should you find yourself in a chronically leaking boat, energy devoted to changing vessels is likely to be more productive than energy devoted to patching leaks." Also will add that, as we all know, it's not always easy to tell what kind of culture you're walking into, and if you're sane enough to put it at the top of your DD list, you better get to the bottom of it quickly.
Dunno I'm designed to enjoy life
Why do you care how somebody remembers you. Do you live to impress others?
There are plenty of people who love to be beat up during sex. Some people derive pleasure from masochism. If it's not your thing, you shouldn't be doing it to yourself tho.
You can always become a CEO by starting your own business.
That's assuming you have another vessel nearby. Then obviously the choice is simple.
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