I'm very curious about what my odds are about getting into a top 3 business school in a couple years, and what I can do until then to strengthen my odds. I will be starting in a Buyside Equity Research Associate role for a ~$100 bil. fund this summer and was curious what kind of schools the WSO community thinks I would be able to get into. I have a ton of SB's and will be giving them out to anyone with thoughtful/insightful answers.
My stats:
- Buyside Equity Research Associate (starting this summer) , ~$100 bil. long only fund
- Should have CFA in 2 years (firm pays)
- Non-target finance degree from state school (graduating this summer)
- 3.65 GPA
- President and upper leadership roles in fraternities/student organizations
- Won several university-wide awards in undergrad for leadership
- Private Pilot's License (obtained in high school)
- Currently starting non-profit org. for cause I believe in
- Projected GMAT 700+ (taking in May)
My questions:
- What other extra-curriculars should I look toward outside of work? (was thinking toast masters)
- What schools would I currently be a good fit for?
- How else can I strengthen my app.?
- Would transitioning to IB after 2 years, after my CFA help my app.? (would'nt do it for this reason alone, just curious if it would help or hurt since I might do it anyway)
- Flying is expensive and I want to stop if it won't hurt my odds - what do you think?
Thanks everyone for your input! SB's to EVERY helpful answer.
The truth is no one really knows what the probabilities are for any one candidate pool. Your chances are X accepted candidates like you over Y applicants like you (in rough terms), which, broadly speaking are going to be finance kids, with some mix of IB / ER / PE / VC (this mix is another variable). I think your chances are pretty good at m7 if you pass the CFA, perform well at work, and score well on the GMAT, but I think 700 is on the lowish end for a finance background. The non-profit won't add a ton unless it's related to what you want to do after b-school.
Overall, finance is very competitive. I think you need to work on crafting a brand / identity for your profile. Are you "just" a finance guy who passed some or all of the CFA and has good stats? So what? What makes you special? The pilot's license is cool but doesn't really tie in to any obvious goal, so you need to find an edge somewhere. "Regular" candidates without an "edge" or special identity get in, but that's pretty much a crap shoot (more so than the whole thing, which is already a crap shoot).
The identity you present in your app should focus on what you want to do after b-school. Basically, an MBA is supposed to be an accelerant to people already on an upward curve, so what is your curve? I don't see any goals listed above, so that would be the first thing to think seriously about. This has been discussed to death, but it's true -- they don't want well rounded people. They want people who are awesome at one thing with no major weaknesses and who will likely be even more awesome at that one thing after business school as a function of having earned the MBA degree.
For top 3 specifically, your best bet is going to be Wharton, but you'll probably have to sell them on why you need another business degree on top of BBA finance + CFA. Without knowing your goals, it sounds like box checking to me, and they'll probably know that.
You don't need to mention that you stopped flying. That's not even a factor and you can phrase it so it's open ended anyway.
Ravenous, thanks for the response! +1.The non-profit is definitely not related to what I want to do after but the cause is something that I am gung ho about, and believe it does add to my personal 'brand.' However, you raise a great point and I could see how I don't really seem that different from the rest of the finance crowd on paper. I feel that i really need to give this some thought and hopefully will have a better idea a few years down the road. At this point I only know that enjoy working in Finance and could see myself working in a variety of different roles post MBA. Honestly, that's good news about the flying, because although I enjoy it - it is too expensive and time consuming to stay active at this point in my life.
Are there any good examples of people that have built a personal 'brand' that you know of, or any threads/articles that you could point me to?
I don't have any article recommendations, but all of the people I know who went to H / S / W (maybe a dozen) had some kind of angle. One girl was an obvious candidate for the social media program at HBS (there can't be that many applicants, so I guess her odds were much better). Another guy was the youngest engineer in the history of a major engineering firm with an epic GMAT (Stanford). In other words, they stood out on paper as being "different" and fit niches the schools were looking for (best of breed in their categories).
I think what they look for is trajectory -- this person has done X, could get Y from our school (and knows it based on what they write in their essays) in order to pursue Z after school. A successful brand basically answers X and Y and then it's up to you to sell them on Z. You can't really change your past (not that it's bad at all in your case), but fortunately you have 2+ years to figure out a game plan and how to strength that brand going in. You really need to have them read your app and say, yeah, I can see where this person is coming from, and I think their goals are reasonable, and I think our school will help them get there.
I'm convinced that one of the MAJOR problems people run into for b-school is that they forget one rule: the school cares about itself more than its applicants. Think about that for a second. The candidates are focused on getting into a top 3 because it will help them. To be blunt, the schools couldn't care less about any one candidate. They are looking for people that will make the school look good years down the road -- you are basically buying their brand, and they only want to sell to buyers who are going to represent them well. So that means you have to make a case for why you are going to be that person -- you are going to move up the curve well based on X Y and Z. There isn't a formula and the specifics are less relevant than having something that makes sense.
If, for example, your goal is to climb to a more senior role in the finance world, you might say that you are already on track with good experience (backed up by letters), have passed the CFA, and are a natural leader (citing examples from your UG leadership awards, reiterated by letters), but need extra training in management topics (citing specific courses / programs / offerings) at each school (which then explains why you are pursuing another business degree beyond finance). That would be a pretty solid and reasonable approach -- it doesn't necessarily shoot the lights out on the unique factor, but it's believable and you have a demonstrated background already in place. What you want to avoid is an awkward transition or something that doesn't have any substantial actions and achievements backing it up.
[quote=Ravenous[/quote] Awesome answer, thank you -- If the finance thing doesn't work out, definitely consider a career in admissions consulting. Yes, I think you nailed my main problem: I stand out from my peers in a predictable way that all other candidates do as well. Is that "needs further leadership experience" actually an angle that would be legitimate? Because, if so, that is actually true and fits my story perfectly.
See how this angle sounds... I was a chronic underachiever in high school, decided I wasn't living up to my potential, and decided I would accomplish a long time goal of mine; learning to fly. I enjoyed the achievement and went on to leadership positions in college and was recognized for it with X and Y. Now after working in the industry, I feel that I have the finance skill, and would like to gain the management skill that your institution offers to help me excel.
The purpose of my non-profit is about teaching leadership, professional, and interviewing skills to high school students that are not achieving their full potential. This is something I could have used at the time and would like to give back what I felt I lacked. The way we will do this is by helping kids "find a spark" that gets them going, just as flying did so for me.
...Is that kind of what you think I should try for? None of it is bullshit either, just didn't really think the "further my leadership" was an angle that wouldn't be seen as too vague.
I think the problem with these apps is that they are very short and necessitate a focus. That makes sense because they don't have time to read 20 pages from each candidate. But it means you can't tell your entire life story. You have to focus on very specific topics and themes.
In your case, you could talk about wanting additional management training since you didn't focus on that in UG and now have experience in the corporate world with demonstrated leadership and want to move up. Your letters could focus on how you would be a good manager someday with the right training, wich specific anecdotes to back that up.
Another angle might be to aim at (for the purpose of your applications or maybe actually aim at) something that combines your pilot experience with your finance experience. Maybe aircraft leasing or the airline industry. That may or may not make sense for you, so only do it if its true.
I think if you start talking about being an underachiever + non-profit + pilot + finance, you are going to run out of space and they aren't going to know what to focus on. You want it to be crisp.
+1 again. So maybe drop the pilot thing altogether from my story? I definitely don't want to get into leasing or the aircraft industry, and the first story you listed is actually true -- I do want greater management experience and don't think ER will provide that to me. I think the pilot thing just clutters the main idea that I should be focusing on, good call. So underachiever + non-profit + finance might be the story? Do you think joining the finance board of a non-profit would actually help this or would it not really add much value? Thanks in advance.
I don't see how the non-profit stuff ties in unless you have some big leadership role to further underscore your potential as a future leader (if only you had more management training). You can mention the pilot thing as an interesting hobby in the activities section of the application, but I wouldn't talk about it in the essays.
If I were you, I would look at the essay topics that are current for this year. They probably are not going to change much in the next couple of years. Maybe put together a draft of what you think your essays might look like one weekend. If you have a good story / reason for wanting to go back to school, the essays should pretty much write themselves. If you are struggling, that means you are missing something, and that's what you should focus on in the next couple of years.
So in sum, I would say finance guy with good leadership + high GMAT (you have to kill it) + good finance experience who wants to be a senior financier in some capacity down the road (you choose) and needs more management training to get there -- then have your letters back all of that up.
Ok, that makes me happy, I honestly didn't want to work on any non-profits but my own anyway. Perfect, I like the angle -- thanks for helping me nail that down. I'll check out the essays, see where I'm lacking and try to add as much as I can. Since I need some help coming up with a specific, marketable, angle do you think down the road an admissions consultant would be worth the money?
I've never used a consultant so I can't really speak for or against that. You have a ton of time though, so I would try to track down any alums from your school that went to top 3 programs and see what they think if they're willing to talk to you. My guess is they should have a pretty good idea based on seeing a range of accepted students.
My school is being ranked for the first time this year by U.S. News so, as you can imagine, our successful Alumni base is incredibly small, and of those successes, most didn't go to b-school. If I were to be accepted into any of those programs, I may be the first or second. We are consistently ranked by Playboy as a top party school, but unfortunately, that doesn't carry much weight. But I definitely think that that is a good idea, I'll take that into consideration over the next few years since I do have so much time to find these people hiding under rocks if they do exist.
Ravenous wanted to add I just got a 730 (48 Q, 42 V) on my GMAT, will this be sufficient in your opinion?
Well done, +SB
Ravenous, I've heard that if you're on the PM track on the buyside it's difficult to convince top MBAs that you really need the degree. Also, if your firm is paying for you to go to school does that put you at a disadvantage since you're just going to end up back at that firm and on the same track as before? I just feel like they can read through the bullshit. Thoughts?
It depends what you mean on the PM track. If you're already making a million dollars a year running your own book, then obviously that's going to be a tough sell. If you're a senior analyst that arguably one day could be a PM, then that should be fine. It also is heavily reliant on why you are applying -- if you just want to study finance, then maybe not. If you're changing careers and have a compelling reason, then sure.
I don't know much about firm sponsorship but I could see it going either way. Contrary to what you wrote, that's about the largest endorsement any firm could give their employee -- they're willing to pay and rehire that person back. I would think schools would see that as no bullshit compared to a lot of the recs I'm sure they read. And the candidate may need the MBA to progress to senior management (not the same track), in which case the schools probably love it (every school wants to have their grad become the next uber CEO / highly successful person).
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