C U J
changed original post since i made a decision and want to remain anonymous. thanks to everyone who helped!
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Do you actually have offers from these firms/shops? Or are you just speculating? I mean... they are all great firms with great reputations. I had a friend in college who worked at Jump, Jump is going to be the smallest of the three firms you mentioned and it has a sort of "start up" feel which is a plus (or a negative) depending on what you are looking for. However, they place a heavy emphasis on programming skills, so unless you have the goods, you can probably cross that one off your list. Citadel has been getting hot again since their slump during the financial crisis. I know someone who is currently working there (incidentally, he is in equity derivatives) and he seems to be happy there. UBS, I can't really comment on, but as a bulge bracket firm I assume you will have relatively more access to a lot of resources and training/mentoring compared to the first two.
Honestly, you probably can't go wrong with any of the choices. If you are in the enviable position of actually having offers from all three, my vote would probably go for Citadel.
Good luck.
c u j
Citadel
Citadel has been known for layoffs too. But, of the three names mentioned, my vote would still go to them...
Any thoughts on Northeast vs. Chicago? If you did undergrad on the east coast, grad school on the east coast, have friends on the east coast, you are going to have to move to a new city, make new friends, and it will be harder at 25 than it was as a grad student.
If you're ok with moving, I think the decision is down to Jump vs. Citadel. They are both great firms. Chicago traders tend to be a bit nicer than the culture on the East Coast.
How patient are you when it comes to earning money? How conservative are you? Are you here on an H1B Visa? How big of a disaster would it be to get laid off?
My thoughts on this:
-Jump is a better way to become a millionaire in two years. -You'll probably learn more at Citadel. I think Citadel has smarter traders (though Jump has brilliant technologists) -Citadel probably is a little more stable than Jump. -In the event you find that you need to leave, smart money has heard of Jump; EVERYONE has heard of Citadel.
c u j
Citadel is a juggernaut in options MM and I know UBS had a great rep in the past, not sure about now. Jump is mostly known for futures and cash HFT. I have no clue if they're good in options or not. They have world-class technology but many HFT firms with great technology have failed in the options business.
If I had to guess, Citadel and UBS would be more stable and Jump would have more upside with higher variance.
What kind of culture do you like? The work environment is going to be very different between these 3 firms.
Citadel, I'd say, regardless of the stories...
As to them not doing too well the past few years, I believe your information is a bit out of date.
Yeah. If you get an offer from SIG let's talk, but otherwise Citadel Securities has been doing pretty well recently.
I haven't heard as much out of Jump. They're a great firm, and they've got great technologists. Both firms have relative strengths but at the very least, Citadel seems to be the safer choice in this decision.
One other factor you may want to consider is the non-compete agreement. Wherever you work in Chicago, you will have to sign a non-compete. IL non-competes are enforceable globally if they agree to pay you a salary during the non-compete period. Citadel is also very obsessive about their IP.
I'll disagree with most of the people here and say that I think you should take Jump over Citadel. As a company, Citadel is more stable, but if you make it into Jump, your job security will be a lot more stable there since they're less of a revolving door and pick their talent very well. Jump compensation, especially if you're young, can be pretty ridiculous given how small the firm is, whereas Citadel still has a slightly corporate/hierachical feel. Jump is killing it in HFT right now (and probably will for a while). Also I'm fairly confident that if you care about company culture at all, Jump > Citadel.
i presume you are talking about the options amm group at jump. keep in mind that if you are joining the options group at jump, the guy running it is ex citadel and might have a few ex citadel and ex sun trading guys. the group is new at jump and is not your conventional jump hft business which people have in mind when they talk about jump. this group was originally from sun trading when they were trying options and they all moved to jump when sun gave up. they have smart people and it seems like they are doing well based on the number of symbols they are trading. however, it is a tough business now and you should try to get a sense of if they are profitable.
money wise, you might make more in the short run at jump but not sure about a "career" etc. a bigger firm might be the place for that.
hi yenvoltrdr. thanks for your comment. i don't have a non compete because this isn't really the tradition in new york. how do you know that the options amm group at jump is an ex citadel guy? it wouldn't be raj kedia by any chance would it? thanks.
yep, he is ex citadel. a group left back in the day to start a vol hedge fund, and I think he then left that group. I wasn't aware of shops in nyc in options amm, besides walleye and Volant and maybe Cutler. are you in a bank or a prop shop?
also, do you have a non compete, I thought citadel would not touch you if you had a non compete or something like that.
Jump > Citadel >>> UBS
Again, Jump's weakness is that it's hard to market. This decision is like Palantir vs. Google. Smart people have heard of Jump; everyone has heard of Citadel.
Both are great firms. Jump offers more up-front; Citadel offers a little more of a floor in a long-term career.
This is money now vs. money later and conservative vs. aggressive risk-taker.
Huh? Jump is not "hard to market". Everyone in quant trading knows who Jump is. Citadel still is a chop shop, and you're out if you can't perform... at both places.
I've met a lot of folks BEFORE they went to Citadel; I don't know anyone who regrets the decision or would call the place a chop shop. I also know people who went to Jump and while most wouldn't call it a chop shop, I know one or two who have called it that. Dude, I studied CS at a Midwestern state school so I know a lot of folks running stuff at both firms. I do think Citadel can be group-specific.
If HFT blows up, Citadel is simply more marketable. OTOH, Jump will pay you more your first year if you do well.
I think the decision between Citadel and Jump is a close one and depends on your risk preferences and time value of money. Although my biases are a but more toward Citadel than Jump relative to Justin, I also think that you're doing better landing at Jump than anywhere on the sell side.
OP, just don't go to UBS out of these three and you'll have made a good decision :)
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