BB ECM vs. MM IBD
I'm trying to decide between a couple full-time analyst offers I have, and I'm not sure which would be the best choice. It's between an ECM position at a BB (DB, UBS, Citi) or IBD position at a MM (Duff & Phelps, Stifel).
Both jobs are in NYC and both groups seemed like a good fit. I'm overall more interested in IBD, but still interested in ECM as well.
Does the branding and deal flow that come from a BB (even a lower-tier one) outweigh the more adaptable skills learned in IBD?
Thanks for your advice.
You'd be really stupid to take ECM over an actual MM IB group.
This is a no brainer. MM IBD and don't look back.
Duff&Phelps and Stifel are worlds apart.
Agreed. More detail on the MM IB offer would be helpful.
The MM position would be a generalist position, and I would work on M&A, transaction opinions, and possibly some restructuring.
This.
Agree. I don't know WTF these guys are talking about.... you'd be stupid to take Duff & Phelps ANYTHING over front office BB anything.
It also depends what your longer-term goals are. Atleast in BB ECM you're marketable within IBD to move to another group (which is sort of a political mine field) and will certainly be marketable to lateral to another firm (possibly into another group).
At D&F, you're sort of dead in the water. You can lateral to other tier 4-ish roles.
I don't know much about Stifel... I know they're big in research. Don't know much about banking, haven't really seen them on many transactions. I'd probably still lean towards the BB ECM position. But again, I'm not as well informed about the firm.
Stifel is very strong in several fairly narrow industry verticals, where they complete a solid number of transactions. It's a good name in middle market IB.
But there are some brain-dead kids ignoring this and of all things, glorifying Stifel, a dying brand with questionable dealflow and exits.
What is ECM? Equity Capital Markets I assume, but couldn't that refer to IBD, ER, or S&T?
Who the fuck gave you a star?
your mom
Thanks for your help.
At my firm ER, IBD, and S&T are all part of ECM.
ECM is the most miserable group at those banks you mentioned. Avoid at all cost.
On the whole then, would the experience and exit opps from either of the MM's be good? I know they wouldn't be the same from a BB, but would I be able to go top-10 MBA or respectable PE/HF?
Probably Duff & Phelps since Stifel NYC is full (offers accepted)
Stifel would be a great offer. If its D&P it would be a tough decision for me, honestly.
Guess I'm the minority, but I'd take ECM and move to a coverage group for my third year if it's D&P. Stifel would be a tougher decision.
If D&P I would take the Citi/DB ECM offers and, as was said above, try to move into coverage for a 3rd year (or ideally earlier). Would avoid UBS ECM over all the other options (bad group, bad culture, and switching into UBS coverage isn't a blessing). If it is Stifel I would take that 1st. So
I'm in agreement with this.
Love how UBS is trashed in every single thread. Not a big fan of the bank itself, but I personally know some folks at UBS ECM - they like what they are doing and are good at it.
These kinds of ungrounded and horribly subjective comments should really be discouraged on WSO. And just FYI, UBS is at 7th in the ECM league table, and guess what, Citi/DB is 5th/6th - huge margin!)
Back to the OP, Stifel > ECM > D&P.
UBS is making a concerted effort to shrink their IBD. That's the difference in all of this.
I guess I'm going to be the lone wolf here, but I'd take ECM in a heartbeat even over Stifel, and definitely over D&P. I agree, Stifel will definitely give you more relevant experience for PE, and it might have marginally better exits, but I've honestly seen a huge disparity between the talent at each.
The kids going into BB ECM were definitely of much higher quality than the kids going to Stifel from my year. Plus, while internal mobility can be really hard in the first year or two, the mobility becomes MUCH easier once consider moving up in the firm. Secondly, the grad school exits (and thus transition) will be a MILLION times better coming from any of those banks.
I'd really only consider MM firms a tier above (Jefferies, HLHZ, Wells) over an ECM position at a BB.
Huge disparity between MM and BB? You are delusional and this statement makes you look really, really stupid.
You also deal with less bullshit at MM firms.
Quick question, is your mother also your sister?
there is some seriously bad advice being dished out here as if it's common sense.
BB ECM is a legit job and mobility into coverage after a year or two is very realistic - it happens frequently (though not the norm). ECM is a lot more similar to IBD than most of us would like to admit and BB brand value will materially change a resume.
i would take Citi/DB ECM over both stifel and duff and phelps in a heartbeat. this is a no-brainer for me.
Quick question - have you ever worked in ECM?
This. If you are willing to spend an extra year or two, shouldn't be an issue getting into a coverage group. Stifel has been on a bit of a buying spree though, and if that translates into dealflow, you could have an interesting experience with good exposure to M&A.
You said this is a BB in NY? Are you sure all three fall under 'ECM'?
You all wish you had Flake's job.
Before you guys get your panties in a bunch, I spent a summer at MM firm considered much better than Stifel. The bonuses were quite healthy, and exit opps for the top analysts were ok and thankfully there were also significant associate promotions. The group definitely put in more hours (though less facetime) than the ECM group at my current bank. Unfortunately, the exits from MM can be high cyclical year to year, especially if you're not in the top bucket, and a M7 grad school did not happen for anyone within several preceding analyst classes.
I think you guys all have an extraordinarily distorted perception of PE recruiting and Stifel's presence in it. By and large, Stifel only recruited the bottom bucket candidates (even intentionally not interviewing stronger resumes). IMO, neither Miller Buckfire nor Stifel carry nearly the same brand name they did a decade ago. I can't imagine Stifel placing a very large portion of their class into PE (I skimmed through Linkedin and also had a hard time verifying such exits).
So yes, I admit that the modeling experience in ECM is major poop, that's also frankly the case in some of the coverage groups at many of the BB's. Still, there are niche exit opportunties, and a good shot to transition into grad school as a backup. But instead of obsessing with exits (which seems to be a pervasive sentiment on WSO), bear in mind that there is a tremendous movement to retain talent at most of the big banks nowadays. As a result, there's also be more flexibility to move around (especially at the third year/associate level), and doing ECM at a bulge, at least you'll have a nice life, be surrounded by a pool of good talent, and have a name to carry you elsewhere.
A humorous way to sidestep the question.A nice life? ECM kids at my bank work like slaves. You are seriously trying to justify your poor decision of leaving MM shop (where you probably didn't get an offer?) to a shitty product group at a BB?
Coverage, whether be BB or MM at least you have the OPPORTUNITY to model, to run the deal where as in ECM you NEVER have this opportunity, and that is the difference.
Transition after your second year? You do realize this is not as easy as you make it out to be? You first have to get a third year offer and this is dependent upon many factors. When banks layoff, guess who are the first to go? Product groups and guess which ones are the least useful for the bank? ECM.
Do not try and instill your poor judgement and perception upon others. And stop drinking the ECM koolaid, it's poison.
But it's an option that's becoming increasingly easier.
You're a fucking idiot. When the markets took a shit, M&A died, with the product groups carrying. Sure, most of that was in Lev Fin, but the fact that you bundle "product groups" as the first to go just goes to show how little you know.This thread is gold.
I know! I'm learning so much. I can't wait to transition to ECM so I can transition to IBD and then exit to PE.
The funny thing is all you do is attack other people's credentials instead of addressing what they have to say.
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