Cannot do another year in IB....my life has already completely faded away and I am in a quite dark place.

Hi, 
Quite a sad/negative post - so nothing for people with a great life in IB at the moment but rather the opposite. Feel like nobody around me understands my situation, but there may be somebody on the forum with great tips and support (do not have anyone to talk to really).
Been working remotely in IB for a BB for 1 year now. Like everyone, I have had good periods, but the last months have been horrible. I can not find any time to see my family, friends, or even my girlfriend who I live with. I work 09 am-04 pm on average, only seeing her sleeping while going to bed, trying to not wake her up. In the morning I have tons of emails so can of course not really spend it with her...not talking about a VP really being an asshole and just making my mornings, days, and nights more difficult. I am not only afraid of losing her as I really love her, but even more of my friends, and foremost myself - working 24/7 and not recognizing who I have become anymore. My mental and physical health has never been like this, I am in quite a dark place and do not know how I ended up here. Went to target with a supportive family with a finance background...so might have been pushing me / inspiring me to choose this track...but it is my responsibility in the end and I have and need, to change something.
I am currently on vacation for three more days and then returning to the office. Already have nightmares about the all-nighters I have done and that I will do, an asshole VP who keeps ccing seniors if I do not respond immediately, and just being a prick. Really not sure where to go in my life at the moment, but I am sure I just want to quit as soon as possible.
Not in IB for the money nor the prestige, just want to obtain good work experience to move on to a corporate or PE - but my anxiety of returning to the office just keeps augmenting and I currently do not know what to do to stop it.
I do not know how some of you guys, in the same situation, survive those working conditions - especially mentally. I would really, deeply, appreciate some advice...tips... on how to keep going for at least half a year. Have heard about the 1.5-2 year line before exiting....just an average guy trying to cross it...

 
Most Helpful

Quit. It's not worth your mental health. 

By quit I don't mean give notice tomorrow - just start applying to jobs for an immediate start and try to be out of banking within the next 2 months. Slow WAY down with your turns/effort and apply to jobs with that time. Corp dev, strategy, startup - you can go a lot of different directions and you'll be extremely competitive for any of them coming from banking. Make a plan and get out

 

In a similar position and probably going to quit at the end of the month to avoid having to move to the office. Just curious though -- what is the 1.5 - 2 year line you mentioned? I feel like the one year mark is all you need to get credit for being in IB, but would love to hear if companies actually consider the extra months in their hiring decision.

 

Not entirely sure which question you're getting at, so I'll answer it the two ways that make sense to me.

When on-cycle recruiting as an analyst (<1 year on the job), expected start date is shortly after 2 years of analyst program. If you receive and accept an offer with an on-cycle start date, the expectation is you complete the remainder of your two years as an analyst. You don't get to quit after completing a year with a job lined up the following year. That almost certainly results in a rescinded offer. There are obviously some exceptions to this, e.g., after 1 year as an analyst you go take on some unique/differentiated opportunity with the intent of only doing it a year before starting your next job. These are extremely uncommon and something like that should be discussed with a future employer before making that kind of jump.

Agree that 1 year of experience is "good enough" to check the box on analyst experience. This is why you see some analysts leave their program early (e.g., 1 year in) for a buy-side role that has the need for an immediate hire and is open to taking a freshly minted 2nd year analyst. These types of opportunities are much harder to pursue if you're not currently working as analyst though. To be blunt - if I was looking at a candidate who did 1 year as an analyst then quit with nothing else going on at the moment, I would likely instantly decide to not move them forward to an interview. Again, there are always exceptions but these are few and far between. 

 

What's your biggest worry? Is it your girlfriend leaving you or the all-nighters that you are expecting? If it's your girlfriend, I wouldn't quit but instead would communicate with her about the reality of my job. Tell her that you only have a year or so left until your work lightens up. Hopefully she will be understanding.

If the horrible work schedule worries you, then maybe listen to the advice above. Search for new jobs before you quit. Maybe one year is enough to get a great PE or corporate gig?

I'm still young and I don't know everything but that's what I would say. Would you guys say that OP is having the typical experience for someone in IB? Is this fairly common or is he just in a bad group? I'm trying to decide myself if this is the right career to go into so I'd love the insight.

 

"just want to obtain good work experience to move on to a corporate or PE"

PE is the exact same.

And I'm yet to see a single person just walk out of IB and straight into "corporate/startup/strategy" etc. which are total  slogs in their own right. You'll get anecdotal evidence from WSO, but it is not the norm.

 

You're right. Bit of a blind spot when seeking info. I used to think PE was great, until I worked on the same floor as some of them, and realised how dorky they were and how much they worked - totally anecdotal. Off on a tangent, but I used to amuse myself by watching them approach girls late at night in the office and get rejected, I'd sit there and laugh to myself. 

 

Of course you went into IB because of prestige. That’s why you are now thinking about moving into PE - which is just the same as other people here pointed out.

Maybe you’ll realise there is something more important than prestige though - focus on your relationship if that is what makes you happy. Hoping other prospects with similar set-ups pre-IB would think more about this. 

 

Have had a quite strong interest in PE or Corp since a while and considered IB as a bridge, why I ended up here. 

I understand it is difficult to think everyone does it for money or prestige, but it is not that easy...appreciate your comment thought...my relationships are far more important than what my current situation is leaning towards...

 

I would take a moment and think about why you chose the job in the first place and what you hope to get out of it moving forward. For me it was just taking advantage of the learning curve and becoming more confident about my own value in the industry.

Like you, in the first year, I was absolutely miserable, despite being a very solid analyst. The way that I pulled myself out of the funk was to start focusing on what I said in the first paragraph. For example, I started to take more time between turns, lower my response time, and actually think about what I was doing and how it could be applied later in life. The main thing is that I just stopped worrying about being the best analyst for the firm and instead on becoming the best version of me.

Part of this comes with confidence. If you know the group generally values you, and that it would be more difficult to replace you (maybe as a result of the txns you’re on), then stop worrying about being perfect. So what if you end up being middle bucket next year? At least you’re happy and following the goals you set out from the start.

Would suggest that while you’re doing the above, you should start looking for another role. Think long term. You don’t need to be a process monkey to make money and be fulfilled. Think about what you’re good at and what makes you valuable. I left banking following the above and it’s worked out of far.

 

It can be really existentially jarring moving from school and basically your entire life before that as well having 100% time for your social life into a job that consumes everything.  Further, people that haven't or don't do it usually don't understand.  It can take its toll on all of your relationships.  If you're going to work in finance (including PE) your job is going to basically consume your life.  In banking as an Analyst and Associate that happens literally, since you're the one spending all the time putting stuff together.  As you move up you're grinding less but it becomes even more consuming as it becomes increasingly difficult to step back from it.  Even as an MD if you're on a live deal you're on calls like every day, and talking to all kinds of people regularly and thinking through the process.  You can't just up and leave for a two week vacation.

The only way you can really make that work is to have a support system of family and friends that understand.  And to have a partner that also understands.  If it's not for you then you should get out ASAP, because not everyone can be this plugged into their job all the time.  Go somewhere else where you make less money but have more work life balance and you will be infinitely happier if that's the case.

But it also sounds like you're in a horrible group, so you could also try moving to a different bank and seeing if that helps maybe?  If you've got the same problem then you know it's the industry that isn't for you and not just your employer being horrible.

 

Really reflect on what you want to do and if you see a path towards finding more balance at your current role. If you don’t see yourself in banking or if the sacrifices are too great, seriously just quit. Take some time for yourself. Exercise, rebuild your relationships, and then take the time to really consider what you want to do long term. Once you’re in a better place and figure out what it is you want to do, put your full self into the recruiting process. Trying to determine what you want to do and putting your best foot forward in the interview process is pretty difficult when you’re getting destroyed in investment banking and are in a bad place. You would be surprised how little people care that you quit investment banking early, especially given all the recent news flow. 

 

I've seen alot of these posts over the last 18 months and firms are starting to try and slow churn and have better work life balances. I used to be a relatively OK at best analyst, hated my team and 1 VP in particular, had no mentors, and no one pushing back on BS requests from Srs. I left the firm to join a better bank but made it clear that culture and being there long term are important to me. Fast forward a few years and after another move, I'm at a top bank, about to be a VP and always look out for analysts and push back on time consuming, low value add.  

What I'm getting at is that it is possible to make it in IB, even after a total shitty first year. As someone mentioned, you need to have those low maintenance friends who dont care when you are late and GF who sees the long term goal.

Given that, I am myself starting to feel Covid catch up to me, not enjoying the job as much from home but its not the first time. There are highs and low, its like being sick, you take for granted being healthy until feel like shit. Now that you have felt the bottom, you can try and climb out and not take for granted enjoying even the smallest parts of this job. Bonus checks also greatly help..

 

Glad to hear it.  I always look out for my Analysts and try to chip in when possible.  As you move up that can become a bit more difficult since you've got more on your plate, but still it's always good to try to push back on requests.  The main problem with this industry is that there's no incentive for people to not be dicks to people below them.  The people above you determine your bonus and promotion path and everyone knows it.  On top of that, given the amount of work this job requires, it's incredibly incentivizing to just say yes to any request you get from superiors and push as much shit down on the people below you as possible.

One solution is to mandate in reviews that everyone has to include people beneath them, but the problem with that is, again, that the people above you determine your bonus / promotion path, so people aren't incentivized to be honest when reviewing people above them.

I'm not really sure what the solution is, but it's always pretty easy to just be a good coworker and not a dick.

 

My current and last bank both had 360 degree reviews and I think its very helpful. I have also seen some analysts speak up Sr bankers about issues, time waste tasks, etc and that will hurt the person's career / rankings. 

I have also seen Sr bankers impressed when saying something like "do we really need to show an outsizes M&A case as its full of our made up assumptions" and just have a callout instead. Sr bankers usually say "I don't feel strongly about it". At the Sr. Asso level, they should not be a straight order talker and instead have creative, efficient ways to do things.

 

Obviously Target -> IB signals that you are smart & competent and will be able to do well anywhere. Corp Dev, Strat, LMM PE (if it's less sweaty) may all have the answers you are seeking. 

I urge you not to overlook tech either as you can transition into Corp Strat team at an F500 and then lateral into one of these roles: Product Management (50-70 hour weeks, make 85% of what a SWE can make, comp ceiling is about 1 mil for group heads but many IB VP equivalents make 350-700k at FAANG). 

Staying anon because this forum will crap on me but as someone who has been at MS/GS FO I kind of dream about going into PM or PMM (Product Marketing). PMM has even fewer hours (rarely exceeds 55) & although I would cap out at 600k it seems like really interesting work.

Sorry about the tangent, my point is you are smart enough to do whatever you want. There are lower stress jobs that are debatably more interesting and potentially fun that you can make alot of money in that are not IB

 

Product marketing pulling in $600k...? Not that I know of. If $300k of that is $1.2m in stock over a 4 year vesting period maybe (if you happen to work at a unicorn, and get in early, and actually get liquid - none of the above let alone all three easy to do), but otherwise I've only ever seen that kind of salary & bonus in enterprise sales or super senior engineers at a FAANG.

 

Hey man, I worked in tech prior to MBA and going to IB. You never cap out if you are good. There's just less space at the top of the totem pole because IB is very much an "Apprenticeship" business where MD's can consist of like 1 in 6 investment bankers, whereas Directors in big tech are like 1/40 ish or fewer. 

Curious as to your numbers about 350-700k for IB VP going to big tech. Is this for strategy roles? What role do you typically come in at, after coming from IB VP? Trying to suss these things out if I ever decide to return to tech. Thanks mate 

 

No. People apply for the analyst position because they want to have the experience that gives you really good career optionality. And it also gives you money and prestige if you're at BB. More than 90% of the analysts of BB and EB leave investment banking after 4 years. So it's wrong to assume that they stay in banking because of the money.

 

You said you're not in it for the prestige or money.  You've done a full year. Quit and move to something with a better work life balance.  You're overcomplicating this way too much.  You'll be fine when you find a good fit.

 

I see these kinds of posts a lot on this site. I think a lot of people here have a hard time of saying no. I completely understand that this can feel difficult to do, especially when you're still on the first year of the job. But if you are truly looking to just stay here for 2 years, you should take a completely different viewpoint/strategy for surviving the two years.

I can only summarize it as "not giving a fuck". By this I don't mean slack off and turn in poor quality of work, but instead to not take certain aspects of the job personally and to not let them stress you and affect your personal life. For example, your asshole VP that CC's the MD when you don't immediately respond, approach it with the mindset of "who cares". What is the worst that can happen? I strongly recommend not replying to new asks after 1/2AM. Additionally, in the mornings, don't immediately respond to emails and start working on the asks. Take your time to get into the day. The key here is to push back on obvious BS. As someone who did 3yrs of junior banking and now works constantly with bankers, I can promise you that the majority of work is BS. You "slowing down" the timetable is really not affecting anything; the majority of the time banking is all fake deadlines.

Don't be afraid of complaining if things get really bad. Banking is having a tough time recruiting junior talent; now more than ever senior team members will be receptive to accommodating you. So take advantage of it. Don't be afraid to also speak directly with the VP; just point-blank, in an email, ask them to stop CC'ing the MD just because you don't respond immediately. Make it clear that you are stretched thin and are trying to accommodate and make everyone happy to the best of your abilities.

In general, to be happy in this industry, you can't let work issues bleed into personal stress. You have to keep them separate. This might sound harsh, but if you are not able to do this, do not do PE. PE is significantly more stressful than banking; it is imperative that you are able to keep your work and personal life separate.

DM me if you want more specific tips; there are a lot of tricks I used to do in banking to lower my workload while still producing quality work. Good luck!

 

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