Computer Science is useless for BB S&T
There is a lot of wrong information on this board - most likely posted by ignorant high school / undergrad students who clearly don't know jack. One piece of wrong information that keeps popping up is that computer science is massively helpful for sales and trading (S&T) at a BB. Wanna know the truth?
YOU DO NOT NEED ANY CS FOR BB S&T
Unless you specifically want the exotics desk, the only programming language you ever need to know for BB S&T is VBA for Excel, nothing more. And you do not need to know about data structures or algorithms to learn this language - it should be dirt easy. So please don't major in CS just for the sake of BB S&T recruiting. At best it will give you a marginal advantage (and you will use little to none of Java/C++ on the job) and at worst, it will fuck up your GPA.
Unless you want quant (algorithmic) trading, stick to Econ and basic finance, sprinkled with some probability/stats courses. Oh and a high GPA won't hurt either..
Hope this clears up some confusion.
The kids who major in CS just to get into S&T are usually the ones who don't make it. The best S&T guys I've seen are the ones who destroyed CS in college and decide to go back to school to make a career change i.e MSFE or MSF
Exactly, actually the best guys are usually not the ones who planned to be in S&T since they are 4 years old. They are often among the very best in their field and just end up randomly in S&T after talking to someone, getting bored or seeing some idiot braindead classmate making twice their salary in some backwater institution.
I agree.
The people with CS degrees in S &T tend to be top preforming students who didn't have any clue about trading until they started looking for ways to make money with their skills. They are computer/math genesis at heart who love solving complex problems and have found a way to apply their passion/interest to trading.
Is your competitive advantage that your a comp/math genesis who spent the last 15 years pondering problems? If not do not major in CS!
Here is a check: If I gave you 3 forward curves could you quickly blend them in your head and write a quick script to create it? (note: the programing part is easy - its the set up that people can't quickly conceptualize)
I dont think any of the three posters above me understand what the point of the OP's argument is
You mean the dude using the term "genesis" isn't some S&T savant?
Go figure...
I always thought otherwise - that CS was a beneficial background for S&T, especially for the more quantitative products (ex. derivatives)
derivstrading, can you confirm what this guy is saying? Is CS/programming not that useful in BB S&T, such as derivative products?
For derivative OTC trading CS is a big advantage - I think his point is that most S&T jobs are not as technical.
I only have experience with vanilla derivatives, but there is no need for CS on for example a flow equity derivs desk outside of VBA.
As an intern I also had some exposure to the structured credit desk and they had an IT guy and a team of quants to do all the CS stuff.
The areas where CS is important is in the quant desks (as in algo desks, not as in illiquid credit derivs).
Most if not all desks have quants.
But its an ADVANTAGE - esp as an analyst - if you can quickly price a OTC for your boss using a simple script. I am talking a one off non-exchange traded OTC prop trade, where the opportunity has a time constraint. The trader would probability make the trade anyways - but it sure looks good if you can quantify his gut feeling.
Also, someone with a CS background is more likely to be able to communicate with the quant to get the right requirement out of the guy.
Like I said its just ONE advantage one might have - but there are lots of advantages - play on your strengths.
Seriously, people on this board over-exaggerate the amount of math/CS background one needs for BB S&T. Sure a math/CS major are good signals to potential recruiters that you are a smart, competent person but in terms of actually trading on the job, quick mental math and some probability/stats is as good as it gets for about 95% of the desks.
There's a reason why banks spend millions of dollars employing quants to support the trading desks - to do all the fundamental quantitative shit for the traders.
People in S&T do not need to know how to programme. The quants do the programming, and the traders/structurers use the pricers and models, they are not responsible for creating them.
It definitely helps to know how to code. I wouldn't major in CS but I would learn basic programming skills.
As I have mentioned before, coding is the lingua franca of the modern world. It NEVER hurts to know how to code regardless of whatever industry you are joining. Especially one which embraces technology as quickly as trading.
It does help to know how to code, or read code.
That said I always ask this...If your a CS/Eng grad why do you NOT want to trade exotics?
Yes, OP is right in vanilla products or equities. But most rates/exotics even some equity derivative desk today are full of CS style folk.
Computer Science advantageous for S&T? (Originally Posted: 01/01/2007)
I'm a finance major but have space for a minor or a double major in another business field. I like computer programming so I was thinking a CS minor would be good for S&T, do you agree?
My sense is that if you're talking about debt S&T, the quant orientation will be valuable, but moreso where they have robust program trading and quant outfits, which means only the largest shops. I don't see it being all that big a plus for working in S&T for equities. Just MHO.
thanks! what minor can be helpful then?
It is definitely looked for in the more quantitative groups.
like option derivates and such?
like option derivatives and such?
cs is good background for most things i think, especially FI derivs
thanks jimbo
Does this still hold true? Would be interesting to hear someone's perspective who is in the industry in 2019, 8 years after this thread was made.
OP is generally correct...CS is overkill for most BB S&T. Math and Econ would be better underrgrad majors. You should ABSOLUTELY learn to code in Python...but you can learn that for free from youtube...no college classes required.
Couple of follow up questions..
1) Since you are in the business, could you maybe give an example of how a trader or sales person would use Python? Surely the tech team or quants would be developing widgets and tools for the Sales/Traders to use, no? Would be great to hear your feedback
2) I heard from a few people that Front Office isn't allowed by compliance (at BBs) to use Python, but rather utilize the support teams to program something in Python (kind of relates to question 1). Is this true?
3) If I am totally incorrect about 1+2, which I very well might be, to what "extent" would one need to know Python? To develop code from scratch or to be able to read someone's existing code and make a few changes? Are we talking about extensive Python knowledge or understanding basic scripting?
ALSO: would be great to hear the product or type of product you work with for context your experience with coding.
Would love to hear your thoughts, considering you have significant experience in the industry!
Just major in applied math and minor in computing. To be a full Computer Science major will be overkill (which is what the original point of this thread had been). Besides, if you are a computer science major, you can pull down great salaries in jobs outside of finance and generally be better off for it.
What about those of us who already are majoring in Finance, albeit took a few basic scripting classes? I'll be doing an S&T internship this summer and wonder whether or not I'll be at a disadvantage not having experience coding. Looking to join a Fixed Income desk.
I don't imagine most people who start in BB S&T want to necessarily stay in it. If you move to a prop shop or research trading firm it is to your benefit to be adept in quantitative skills (probability, math, some basic-mid CS).
Even moving into PM work or HFs it is still to your benefit. However solely majoring in CS for that purpose is bad. Better to go for Math/Quant Fin/Stats.
Maybe outside the typical sentiment, I think I want to stay in BB S&T as opposed to go to the buy side. I guess that's where I question how useful coding would be (outside of VBA).
The real profitability in trading is on the other side my friend.
I major in Finance with a minor in Math. Math courses: Calc 1-3, Differential Equations, and Proof and Problem Solving. I plan to take Linear Algebra and Probability & Statistics next semester. How are my prospects for S&T at a BB?
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