I would really appreciate some thoughts from my fellow monkeys.
Since February, after my fund and I parted ways, I've been working on several non-finance related projects. Those of you who know me in person are aware of what I'm doing. I genuinely am a lot happier now than I was at my previous position. Without going into too much detail, I am currently doing some work at a top 5 university as well as some biz development work for a very successful startup. There is also the possibility of me getting involved in other projects as well.
By labor day weekend or so, I need to make a decision on whether to re-apply to full-time M7 programs OR opt for booth part-time. If I were to go for the latter, I would apply in september, and if accepted, start in december. Obviously, once I do that, full-time is off the table.
I prefer the FT by a wide margin for reasons I have discussed numerous times. However, I have become a lot warmer to the idea of a booth PT after talking to actual students as well as people on adcom. At the same time I have to be realistic about my FT chances. As I said multiple times on various admission threads, I firmly believe that for a white/asian male in finance, it is extremely difficult to get into a M7 full-time program without a brand name company on his resume. In my case I went to great schools but not the right companies. So the second way to get in, I believe, is to do something totally unrelated to finance, that makes you stand out and is congruent with your personal interests, passions, and ambitions. In my case I believe I am doing this right now but am very ambivalent on whether it is enough "juice" to get me into the accepted column after being dinged in 2011.
I have talked to multiple trusted friends on this, including current students at M7 schools and have received wildly varying opinions.
Sorry for the long post. I do need to reach a decision fairly soon, so any honest input from monkeys will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
I've seen all types of backgrounds get in and get rejected. First and foremost, you need, obviously, a stellar GMAT. You then need clear career goals and you need to be clear about how the school and an MBA will help you achieve those goals. Don't do part-time if you need the summer internship to help you make a transition.
I know plenty of people who got in without brand names on their resume. You just need to find a way to stand out. One thing is for sure, there is not a clear answer.
i am not in b school right now and might not ever be. But a lot of my friends are about to go to b school next year so here are my suggestions...
i have seen people who got into MBA business schools ">M7 without a brand name. And in all honesty, this actually happens quite often. You just need a stellar rec and a history of being good at what you do and being able to illustrate what your career goal is after being on the job
dont ever do something for the sake of being at bschool. Only do it if you are passionate about it and eventually it wil lshine through on your resume
if you ever want a FT job by the end of your 2 year bschool, you need to apply for the FT program. I believe this is what you are going for as well
I've seen you post on here a million times about how badly you want to go to an "M7" and can't imagine how great it will be, but I'm not sure if I have ever seen you explain why.
What are your goals? You worked in finance, but from this post, it doesn't seem like you were all that happy there, and I can't imagine that it will be that convincing if your career goals essay was about getting back into finance.
These schools no that basically, everyone wants to go to them because they're great schools. That's obvious, and it's also obvious that (as you have stated many times), they open up a wealth of opportunities that might be harder (or even impossible, even though I don't agree with that) to obtain without that full-time b school experience. The problem is, you have to convince them not just that you want to go there because they're a good school, but because you need them for X, and they need you for that same X. What will you bring to the table? What will you use them for? What will their benefits be from having you? Admissions, while obviously a game to a certain extent (especially for a white/Asian male in finance), is about a mutual benefit. If you can't show them that there will be one, you'll never get in, unless everything else about you pops off the charts.
Without knowing you like some people on this board, it seems like you revere these schools so much that you can't possibly imagine that you could bring something to the table, especially as one of the over-represented populations without a brand name employer. You can, you just have to figure out what.
That was a long winded way of me asking what are your post-MBA goals.
My gut is that since you have found happiness doing other stuff since leaving your fund, maybe you should just go with Booth PT. I know a bunch of people that have done Booth PT and I think it's one of the more integrated PT programs (although they've closed a lot of loop holes like switching into FT and using career services.) I've personally chosen full time and think it's the right choice for me, but I'm hoping to make a total career switch.
Booth PT does allow use of OCR after completing 12 classes and having your company sign a waiver only if you are being sponsored. There are 2 disadvantages though. PT students cannot use OCR to secure summer internships, and they cannot bid points to get interviews they really want. Simply put, if a booth PT students applies through OCR, he has to get an interview based purely on his merits while being compared to the FT folks.
If this thing is going to cost you something like $200k, you better use/invest that money instead.
A couple of questions that might guide you, or help us understand better:
A - Can you apply to both Booth PT and other MBA business schools ">M7 FT? Once you get acceptance letter you can make a decision.
B - Do you see yourself being able to build a career by doing your current work and pursuing Booth PT?
A. Yes, you can certainly do that, but as of now, booth FT is my "realistic" top FT choice. HSW is out due to a number of reasons.
B. This is the million dollar question, and I've gotten a lot of different viewpoints on this. I know WSO is very tough on PT programs, but from talking to actual PT students, a decent number managed to use the program's resources to secure full-time jobs afterwards. Of course, it was more difficult and certainly required a bit more hustle. But they managed to pull it off. I think I have a unique resume and some very specific skillsets and experience, that could pay dividends during the interview process for the jobs I want. The question though is, is it worth spending a ton of money for a PT program.
Apart from the life experience which you have mentioned in the past, what do you want to get out of an MBA and what do you want to do after it?
I think Booth PT is a mistake for anyone unless you are committed to staying in Chicago for the medium/long-term and work at a company that a) requires, or highly values, in terms of comp/trajectory an MBA degree, and b) will pay for it. In other words, you should not go to Booth PT for a career switch, and you should not pay for it. I'm guessing PT is not for you.
I think you should apply FT but broaden your school list. There's no reason you should confine it to "M7". You will have a great life and career building experience at any of the top 15-ish schools (and you might not have to pay for all of it). I don't know exactly what your career goals are, but if you don't measure your life's success using NPV then I think it will work out. On the other hand, if you are one of the NPV people, then MBA is probably not for you.
Thanks for this advice.
In terms of career goals, I've always been interested in macroeconomics, political economy, etc. I actually have a masters in political economy from a top 5 ranked program and wrote a thesis on east asia. As such, my long-term goal would be to work as a PM at a macro hedge fund. But in the short-term I am very interested in doing research/product management in fixed income at a big IM shop like BlackRock, PIMCO, dimensional fund, etc. Being on the equities desk, I realized that equities were always lagging what was going on in the fixed income arena, and I realized that I really need to learn this asset class before being able to move onto a macro fund.
Last time I applied, I wrote my b-school essays about doing fundamental equity research, which was totally stupid and not genuine. And I'm sure that adcom was able to tell.
Might wanna cross post on Ask Alex thread, he should have good insight on this.
Use career services for what? What do you want to go to business school for?
Its ok if you don't want to go into detail about HSW, but have you applied?
What about Columbia's MBA FT, or MIT's MFIn? Wouldn't that allow you to interview with PIMCO and such firms (BlackRock?), or do they not recruit there?
Seeing as you are experienced are you considering Booth PT and just applying as an experienced candidate / using your network?
I might end up doing a Masters in Finance this Autumn and relying on my relationships to get a job, but my sector usually hires on a needs basis anyway. I still haven't ruled out applying for HSW 1st round though. Will need to decide in the coming few weeks.
I actually never applied to HBS/Stanford. I applied to wharton last time and got dinged. I don't think wharton is feasible unless something major changes in my profile.
Yes, I'm very interested in columbia MBA FT, but i hear they hate re-applicants. As for MIT MFin, I don't have the math background for it.
Regarding booth PT, I'm pretty confident i can find something good given my work experience if i have access to ocr and take advantage of all the resources. It's obviously a gamble since unlike FT, there isn't any structured process set for PT to help them get a full-time job.
I'm surprised you are considering a MFin since last time we discussed this, you were pretty set on an MBA. What made you change your mind? Is a MFin even helpful for your area of work?
Isn't the application fee $100-200 for Columbia? Worth a shot to give you an option. You have nothing to lose.
Neither an MFin or MBA is intrinsically helpful really, but I need a Masters for the branding and because most people at my level have one, or have a top undergrad. I've missed out on a few great jobs in REPE and IBD / M&A because I don't have one and have a no-name undergrad. The Partners & MDs I know said I should get a Masters. I have received offers at smaller firms then my previous ones, but they fell short of expectations in terms of role / pay.
I didn't end up applying to MBAs last session partly for personal reasons (wasn't sure I could commit for two years in the US) and because was in the process for potential roles that fell through. I applied final round to one of the Masters in Finance and am in the process now. Should find out in the next few weeks as I have just interviewed. I suppose INSEAD is also an option for me, but need to check their dates for the January intake, in any case I won't hear from them before having to commit to the Finance Masters so will probably stick with that.
I'd say give yourself some options by applying to Columbia FT as well as Booth PT (up to you whether to consider other programmes). If had applied to MBAs as I was thinking of I would have had more choices now.
do an uber early ED application at columbia and if that doesnt hit then you can decide whether or not to try for booth part time or full time would be my advice
i think your other late term plan was what didnt sound genuine ;P lol
just to inject a dose of skepticism - the essays seem to matter only so far as they define you into a role in the FT class - the adcom also knows that people lie about their interests in their essays and look for internal consistency.
I think a better path is not to define yourself as interested in finance when applying to a top MBA business schools ">M7 school since the competition for these slots is more structured (i.e. big name schools / employers etc.) when compared to general management / marketing and instead express interest in entrepreneurship etc.
This is a very good point and something I thought about. To be honest, I really don't want to go back to trading but am still very much interested in a long-term career in finance. Given the work I'm doing now, I could feasibly make an argument that I want to totally switch gears, but I just don't think it would be a convincing story since I left finance so recently.
use different stories / interests for different schools. It actually would be interesting to do an experiment where you only vary the essays of a candidate with multiple applications to the same school (same stats) to figure out how adcom is making decisions.
I'm definitely gonna retake the gmat if i re-apply FT. My last booth FT essays were actually quite bad; i was so crunched for time, and even when i submitted them i knew that they were off the mark. Would kickass essays have gotten me in? Probably not. But with my new post-finance work, hopefully a higher gmat, who knows what will happen.
Hi Brady,
I just finished up B-school and have many friends who either graduated from or are still enrolled in MBA business schools ">M7 schools. I think generally speaking you are correct. For a non-minority in finance, it is hard to get into an MBA business schools ">M7 without name brands on your resume. I don't think it's impossible though. Strong essays, recommendations, and a high GMAT and it's possible, especially if you're changing careers and the change is logical.
Let me ask this question - suppose you decided in your essays that you didn't want to pursue finance. What would you write about and how strong would those essays be? I do think that kickass essays would make a difference.
Also, you can probably chalk up some dings to the fact that you wrote about doing fundamental equity research. There just aren't too many equity research jobs out there for MBA students. Schools want to be sure they can place people when they're making admissions decisions and that's a hard one to place.
That's just my .02.
Thanks for the input. The essays will actually be tough this time around since i have to explain my departure from trading, why i don't want to go back to it, and how my recent experience fits with my past and future plans. To be honest, i'm open to several routes post-MBA. I'm however about 100% confident that i don't want to do banking, consulting, corporate strategy, marketing, F500 finance. That's actually the vast majority of post-mba jobs, however. Lol.
Some of the corporate strategy/general management and marketing jobs are very cool. I went into B-school with the idea that I was going to back to finance, but I also didn't want banking either. I tried to break into either sports or gaming and I spent my internship in Las Vegas creating new sports bets for people to wager on. My boss there was an HBS alum and it was something I'd have never considered before b-school. I also took a final round interview with Chevron for their leadership development program since this was a way to ultimately get a leadership role in their trading business. I ended up going back to market making, but the point is that there are probably a lot more jobs out there than you think.
Funny you mention that. I see people who put equity research as a career goal get rejected all the time. Sure, there are exceptions but those people are probably applying to NYU or Columbia, but I can't say for sure.
Brady, you only have one opportunity to do FT and multiple shots left at the admit process at many of these schools.
I would apply FT this year, then PT in a year or two.
You need a job, a 750 GMAT, and a good story to get into Booth.
Stick with your current startup.
I will second what pr0ficient said with the following addendum. On my visits to Chicago I spoke with admissions committee members who clarified the long/short term goal question. Both responded similarly saying something along the lines of:
"It is extremely important for applicants to have very clear goals in EITHER the short term or the long term or both. That is, if an applicant has a very clear long term goal and expresses that they are looking at persuing several potential paths to that goal, as long as those are all reasonable and make sense, the adcomm looks favorably on that. Similarly, if an applicant knows something very specific they want to do in the short term (say 3-5 years) but is more ambivilant about their long term goals, that is also okay."
A lot of people have made really good points. I agree strongly with what Booth said - you need to have well defined goals for either the short or the long term, with reasonable, potential paths/outcomes for the one that you don't define.
Equally as important, as someone else mentioned, is that this needs to tie into your profile and work experience. Personally, and I'm far from an Adcom member, it sounds a little strange to see that you were in finance, then left finance to do some business development stuff for a startup/some work with a university, and then are applying to school to go back into finance. I feel like you'd be better served by playing up your new roles, showing how they've opened your eyes, and emphasizing a desire to get into a career more related to those, and business school will help you do that because of X, Y and Z.
Also agree with Boothorbust about trying out an early ED application to Columbia and see what happens. That would most likely leave your other options open. Tuck early action decisions are also in December so that might work.
I think you guys are kinda over-thinking the whole goals in the essays-->employment thing. They realize that once you get to school, all these goals are kind of thrown out the window (as well they should be). In the goals section, I would make sure it adds to, and is congruent with, your story and if it can also be somewhat differentiated, great. If not, then just don't be too drastic.
This is an art, not a science--focus on telling a compelling story. Essays are precious space where I would spend incremental time painting a picture of yourself as someone with truly different and interesting experiences, and how those along with an MBA will add value to yourself and your classmates.
Brady, how promising is the startup? If things get cooking there, why waste your time w b school?
The startup has already done quite well and is scaling very nicely. The #1 reason why a lot of startups fail is poor scalability (ie., growing too quickly, spending too much in the early stages even before the business model has been proven to be effective, etc.). But this company has avoided that trap, and in my opinion, it delivers a valuable service to a very wide market.
Having said that, the 2 co-founders have done the bulk of the work, and it's not clear how much longer I will be needed. The next few months will be interesting because we are planning to expand quite aggressively. I think by september I will have a better idea of where I stand.
Brady's startup is very solid in terms of idea and execution, in this programmer's opinion. If you live in NYC, you will probably be using it in five years. And Brady has a sort of ground-floor opportunity in it.
In my opinion, ground-floor experiences at successful start-ups make the best business school essays. I actually think it meshes really well with a finance background, and I think that if you play it right, you won't necessarily be lumped in with the white/Asian finance crowd, but instead the "Got bored of finance so started my own thing (or helped someone start their own thing) crowd", that turns a lot more heads on Adcoms. Oh, and for employability sake, I also worked in finance for awhile and can do that pretty well, in case I don't think of the next Facebook or Groupon.
Tell you're story right and I see no reason why you wouldn't get in. What's your college/GPA/GMAT breakdown?
Also, have you considered talking to a consultant? I think I've seen you ask questions before, but for someone like you who has some disjointed experiences (all quality), is reaching the end of their application window, and really wants to get in, it might help to have a specific person that knows CBS or Kellogg or wherever else that can work with you on what to emphasize. I know some on here don't like AC's, but they can help, especially when you're not sure of the story you want to tell.
Not ground-floor experience since the startup was founded a few years ago. I'm one of the first hires since the 2 co-founders have done everything themselves thus far.
I went to great schools, but my numbers are below median (within the 80% range but nothing great) mostly due to a disaster last semester of college, in which my grades dropped precipitously. So a higher GMAT is imperative to make up for that debacle.
I'm actually more open to talking to a consultant because as opposed to previous years, I'm technically no longer a "finance guy." My situation is very unique and difficult, so I might need some guidance on how to present myself in the essays. Still skeptical about the value-add of a consultant, but I might try out some free consultations to get a feel for what they say.
Let me add that ground-floor experiences at unsuccessful start-ups make awesome essays too, so assuming it's a legit start-up that raised some money (IP certainly made it sound that way), you should have a good qual there.
Can I ask why you won't be needed if they're planning to expand quite rapidly? Sounds to me like you've got an awesome opportunity to maybe complete your original task there, but then leverage your experience, knowledge, and quality work to get into a different role and ride the wave of a fast growing start-up.
Don't want to go into too much details, but i'm currently working on a part-time basis for an immediate need they have. We haven't discussed anything beyond my contract expiration. It's possible that they might ask me to stay on longer to do more work for them, but it's too soon to bring it up.
I agree with the other posters that this could potentially make an interesting story. But I'm not so sure I want to do startups in the long-term; I still am strongly interested in finance. More importantly though, it will be very difficult to do a "mea-culpa" essay where I basically say that my previous 7 years of work was somehow a mistake and that I was never meant for trading but recently discovered this new "passion" for other areas. Don't think adcom will buy this.
Can't you build on the trading/finance angle but augment it with a bit of entrepreneurship / business? i.e. talk about what area of finance you want to develop differently. I remember you mentioning something about developing a line of business (i don't know if it was a new strategy or product) at your previous firm.
I'm not the best to give advice on this due to my limited experience with the application process, but I'm focusing on the international aspect of my career, even though it's in real estate investments (a decimated industry). Maybe its not so much that you should try not to be a finance guy, but what kind of finance guy you want to be? Just a cookie cutter trader or someone more interesting?
Also, go for Columbia FT ED, I'm considering it so we might end up being classmates! ... that is if I can bring myself to do the applications.
Don't think i'll have time for columbia ED since i'm swamped this summer and also need to re-take my gmat. columbia is a HUGE gmat whore.
Was just about to say what Relinquis said. You don't have to go with the complete 180 degree approach. Maybe just a slight change in directions, where finance is still your thing, but tie the entrepreneurship in with it.
I'm planning to play this card with consulting, which might be a little easier (or it might not be...), but I do think there's a way to wrap the two together to make a really solid story that leads to some great sounding goals.
I don't know your exact gmat score, but with the work exp. you have, I'm assuming that it will be weighted much more heavily than your undergrad. Is it above 50% for M7's? I know you're a white male, so that 50% is different, but if you're in the 710-720 range then it sounds like it'd be fine.
You're not writing a mea culpa about trading. The essays can focus on the skills you've learned from trading and how they can be applied to your new career in X. Trading is a young man's game and it's hard to sustain that as a long term career and I think most B-schools know that. The key is about framing the essay in a positive light that you realize trading was a great opportunity but not a life-long career, and you can leverage your skills that you've honed through your experiences thus far toward your new career in whatever it is that you choose to write about.
Yeah, this is exactly right. I guess I could make a pretty good argument detailing the changes happening in trading and why it's no longer a good fit for me, given my background and interests. At the same time, I developed some specific knowledge and skillsets that can be applied to other areas of finance.
It's totally feasible that if I go to b-school I could change my mind entirely. I'm not ruling out the possibility of me going into consulting or something different altogether. But thinking about that is putting the cart before the horse. My first priority is do whatever it takes to maximize my chances at admissions since this really is my last shot.
I never understand how doing well on high school geometry puzzles would trump trading / investing experience for a business school focused on finance... I guess you just have to play the game.
If you have your references, it might be worth a shot. You never know.
It's all part of the game. It is what it is. I think the main reason schools care is because a higher gmat median plays a role in rankings, thereby enhancing the school's perceived selectivity and prestige.
I'm gonna have to get fresh recs. My previous bosses won't write me another one. For one thing, they are terrible at writing b-school recs. I tried to get more involved in the process, but they said to not worry about it. Not gonna make the same mistake this time.
Do you see any value to an MBA outside of the M7? I don't know your profile, but would a significant scholarship to a school ranked 8-20 be something you'd consider? Given that this is probably your last good shot at going full time, it may make sense to broaden your search. Also, because each school is different, applying to all of the MBA business schools ">M7 may not make sense from a fit perspective.
And I agree that your GMAT will be of more value to a school than your trading pnl; Business Week/USNews/FT only cares about the former, so it matters.
This is something I thought about extensively. Given my career goals, opportunity cost of loans, etc., I don't think anything outside of the MBA business schools ">M7 would be worth it for me. This is not stemming from some sense of arrogance or entitlement; obviously a ton of pepole at the other schools get great jobs coming out. And I certainly don't think I'm too good to go to one of those schools. But in my case I've talked to a lot of students/alums from these programs, and they all told me that given what i am interested in, coming to their school would not make too much sense. One stern student I met at a conference said, "if you wanted banking or consulting, stern is fine. but given what you want, i'm not quite so sure it will be worth it."
Unlike law or med school, where you HAVE to go somewhere if you want to practice that field, the decision to go to b-school is quite personal and specific. This is a personal decision I made after doing a lot of research, talking to people, and thinking. For me, it will either be MBA business schools ">M7 full-time or booth part-time. And I'm at peace with that.
I can respect that. I felt very similarly myself when I first starting applying to B-schools years ago. My profile was a bit weird - very crappy GPA applied math major from a top 20 university with name brands in finance and a 780 GMAT. I didn't know where I'd get in, applied to 7 schools in the top 25, had interviews with Kellogg and Booth, didn't get into either, and ultimately had to make a choice b/t two schools ranked b/t 15-20, both with substantial scholarships. In my case, things couldn't have worked out better, and I felt that while I probably had to network harder to get some opportunities, that virtually every career choice was on the table.
If you don't go to an MBA business schools ">M7, what's the alternative? Booth PT is great but difficult for career changers. I think the alternative is at least top 15, which is still better nothing. I've met many PMs at the top companies that got in from top 15 schools. The thing about research is that many companies require a pitch as part of the application process. If you know what you are doing, and the company senses that in your pitch, you will have just as good of a chance as anyone else. Plus, you never know if a school outside an MBA business schools ">M7 will give you a nice scholarship. It's worth a shot.
Put me in the camp of saying that Booth PT is not as good an alternative as top 10-15 FT MBA. One of the most valuable skills I got out of school was focusing, practicing and honing my interviewing, especially during the internship process.
I think you have two very conflicting mindsets. You're obsessed with MBA business schools ">M7, and that's perfectly fine (to a certain point). You also recognize that this is probably your last shot at applying to a FT program, which makes sense as well. However, it's June, you're obsessed with getting into a top school and you know it's your last shot, yet you haven't retaken the GMAT yet so you wont be able to apply early to certain places, thus hurting your chances of getting in?
Forgive me for being harsh, but that's just crappy prioritization. Maybe I'm just surprised because you strike me as the type of person that's so driven to get into a top b school that I figured you would have taken the GMAT five times by now to eek out every point you can get, but this just doesn't add up. Everyone is busy. ESPECIALLY the class you are lumped into - white/Asian males in finance. Yet, as you have pointed out, they all managed to get 740's on their GMAT, and I'm sure most of them found time to study.
You're a smart dude. Take the GMAT in one month (you've already taken it before, it shouldn't take longer than this). Then apply everywhere. Just my $.02.
Your points are well taken. After my last ding, I decided to no longer re-apply to full-time programs, but in the past few weeks I've had second thoughts due to my new situation along with other factors. So that's why I have not taken it yet.
Brady, i think MBA business schools ">M7 is a bit "narrrow". You gotta consider at least 8.
I mean: HBS, Stanford, Wharton, Booth, MIT, Kellog, Columbia and Tuck are all great for Asset Management and finance in general. So you have at least 8 schools that would be a good fit.
Now 8 is a lot, so I would apply to HBS (you cant NOT apply), Wharton, Booth, MIT, Columbia and Tuck. Try to apply R1.
I think Stanford and Kellog are not worth your effort. Stanford is just "a gamble" and Kellog is not very well suited for you goals.
In R2, I would try Stern, Yale and Duke. I know they might not be great for your goals BUT you will still have a wonderful life experience. And from what I noticed in your many posts, you still want an "MBA life experience". All this places are still great, you will travel a lot and make great friends/connections. I just applied to 4 top 5 schools. However, if I hadnt been accepted to any, I would have expanded the school list next year. PT MBA will only provide you with a brand in your CV but you wont have a full "bschool experience".
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