Goldie Tinfoil Hat Vaccine TalkTalk Thread

I'm trying to figure out what to personally do about the vaccine. Covid has really made me question a lot of my core beliefs and this vaccine thing is a big part of that. I'm just gonna post some bullets about stuff I think and hopefully some people have some stuff to say:

-I'm big on "we don't know what we don't know." I believe humans are perpetually arrogant about the state of medicine being more advanced than it is. I believe a ton of harm comes  from medical treatment for things that would have taken care of themselves or could have been corrected through non-medical routes. Nassim Taleb on iatrogenics, etc

-Fact: governments of the world have done shady shit to their populations without their consent throughout history.

-I believe questioning things is important and doing things just because others are doing them is lazy and foolish. You should have a goal in mind and you should know why you're doing what you're doing. You should hold view you've thought through, hold no views on things you haven't thought through, and be unafraid to hold views others disagree with. In the context of Covid, I was seeing the vaccine discussed in a 50/50 sort of manner not long ago. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. Now, the hivemind is "Wear a mask and get vaccinated! You're a bad person if you don't. Don't ask questions. Just do it.' When someone says, 'Don't ask questions and do it,' my instincts scream at me to run or do the opposite.

-There seems to be a global attitude shift toward collectivization, acceptance of government oversight, acceptance of increasing government intrusion into private and social life... Musk wants to put chips in our heads so we no longer have to speak. I listen to a lot of Rogan and see his stance on shit as a decent barometer of public opinion. A year ago, he was super fishy on the "join the machines" shit. Now, Brian Greene comes on and he's like, 'Yeah it's happening whatever.' He sold out and who knows who's in his ear.

-I'm not concerned about dying from Covid. I'm 28 y/o and in great health. Health shaming is a thing now and that's funny to me. People act like "heath" is binary - you either are or you aren't.

Exhibit A: Dadbod skinnyfat married with 3 kids dude who works in an office, does Krav Maga twice a week, drinks 10.7 beers a week, eats pizza on the weekends, eats chicken salad for lunch during the week, and gets a massage every other Sunday. He's 35. 6' 185lb 18% BF. Has a benzo script. Catches a cold annually

Exhibit B: Divorced divorce attorney. Takes a black car to work. Eats mostly delivery and at fancy restaurants. Never exercises. Drinks whiskey every night. Sleeps in an armchair. He's on blood pressure meds, statins, an SSRI, and pops way more viagra than you should. Gets sick so bad he has to take antibiotics twice a year. He's 6' 285lb 45% BF

Exhibit C: Married with 2 kids dude who works for himself from home, does weightlifting 5X per week, does HIIT cardio, eats clean 98% of the time, takes a walk outside an hour a day, ice tub daily, sauna 5X per week, can fast for two weeks with no performance dip if he has to, gets good sleep, supplements religiously, and is not on any meds. Does not remember the last time he was sick. 6' 205lb 10% BF.

Exhibits A & C are both "healthy" according to medical standards. But they're not at all the same thing. Their immune systems and their stress tolerance are not at all the same thing. So when people say, 'Even young and healthy people have gotten serious complications from Covid,' do they mean people who actually pursue healthy? Or just young people who aren't fat and that's about all they have going for them?

-Anecdotally, everyone I know who's in half decent shape say they brushed off Covid in a couple days with no after effects. My boy Orlando's 2-year-old caught it and had sniffles for a day and that was it. On all the fitness podcasts I listen to, every single person brushed it off. Now those are actual healthy people - not Western medical textbook "healthy" people.

-This shit doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon like we'd hoped. How long can it possibly take for a single virus to run through a whole population? 

-Unpopular personal beliefs: We have more than enough people. Too many people. Most of them suck. They're stupid and lazy. Too lazy to appreciate and care for the healthy they've been given. Put your emotions aside and explain to me how society would not be better off in the long run if we snip the frayed ends a bit.

-Aging population is a problem for governments. Is Covid a solution? Came out of China. Which has an aging population big time. Are we sure this isn't designed to just trim the fat? Because if I'm not the fat, and I have no room for the fat in my life, I have no concerns.

-Microchip? I don't know. Maybe. Am I crazy to think it's feasible? I don't think so. I think the most infeasible part is global governments being organized enough to run some shit like that. The technology existing is totally possible. Are we in denial there are groups who would do that if they could? People are afraid to sound crazy. That boat's sailed for me so here I am to tell you that I am very concerned about being injected with some shady shit meant to control or keep track of us somehow.

-Virus is mutating. So does getting vaccinated from this version protect us from the mutations? 

-Anyone know how they handled this shit with Polio? Did everyone sign up to get vaccinated? I can't imagine how you'd get the whole population of the whole world to go and get voluntary vaccinations.

-If I'm healthy, and Covid would just wash over me like all the other healthy people, why would I not just catch it and have the antibodies over getting vaccinated?

-What really concerns me is the after-effects rather than dying from the virus itself:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article…

And here are athletes getting very sick, but football players are not at all necessarily healthy overall...

https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/26/myocarditis-m…

-My personal situation: I'm 28 y/o in great health. Wife is 26 y/o in pretty good health. We have a 10 m/o baby who's doing great and will be shooting for another one in about 6 months. My wife is already vaccinated because she's a teacher and is going to need to go back to in-person teaching. The baby should have immunity through breastmilk, but who knows. Like with this whole thing. Who knows.. 

So I suppose I'm trying to decide two things for myself:

-Should I personally get vaccinated? You can still pass Covid if vaccinated. And if my end-goal is to keep my kid from developing any of the scary side-effects from Covid, would it not be better if I have the antibodies rather than vaccine? But how would I get the antibodies without infecting her in the meantime? If she can even be infected because breastmilk immunity.

-What level of extracurricular risk am I willing to take? I recently joined a weightlifting gym, which got me thinking about all this. Because I was fairly isolated before that. Health has a huge social component and it's not healthy for us to be isolated for a long time. And I was missing a little comradery. Covid has no end in sight. So I justified it by saying this will make me a better and healthier person overall which makes me a better father and husband along with everything else which makes for a stronger and healthier family. My wife wants to go back to hot yoga... I mean, can we justify these things? Or should we continue to hunker down? For how long? Is that itself some form of governmental manipulation? Is this the beginning of a new norm of government-imposed lockdowns to offset carbon emissions and who knows what else?

-The info is changing so rapidly. Shady shit about everything always comes out later on down the road. You just know we're gonna look back on this in 10 years saying soooo many mistakes were made. Who's to say getting vaccinated isn't one of those mistakes? At this point, Covid is almost the familiar and vaccination is the unknown.

I'm fizzling out. That's all I got for now.

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Comments (49)

  • Associate 1 in PE - LBOs
Apr 12, 2021 - 1:08pm

I'm not getting it personally. I'm in my mid-20s, fairly good health (got a little chub during all these lockdowns but still decent shape), have no underlying health issues, and I live alone. I've been traveling with some regularity (at least 1-2 round trips to various states around the country every couple months) since airports reopened in Q3/Q4 of last year and have had 0 issues. I see no reason to take an experimental vaccine that's been so utterly politicized for a virus that, given the above, I fall into the 99.99% survival rate for. If I had say diabetes or some other issues or frequently saw my grandmother then it would be a different story.

The argument that everyone should get it so that the people around them are safe is dumb to me, because either the vaccine works and people who get it should no longer have to wear masks or abide by any of these silly social distancing rules that have 0 evidence supporting them, or the vaccines don't work (Fauci saying people who've been pricked still need to wear masks and social distance, wtf?) and we shouldn't have to take them in the first place. For anyone who decides they don't want to take it, that means they're fine with the risk that they might catch the virus (and given it's 99% survival rate for most of the population, I expect a lot of people are fine with taking that risk).

One thing that has really interested me is the preponderance of woke folks trying to push for a race-based distribution platform to prioritize POC communities that have been harder hit by the virus, which could be due to higher rates of obesity and other co-morbidity factors rather than RaCiSm but we'll leave that alone for now. That comes in tow with these communities having among the highest vaccination hesitancy rates, which given the historical reality of programs like the Tuskegee Syphilis Study I can somewhat understand. Who can blame minority communities for feeling weird about all the neon-white liberals who 6 months ago were screaming about how the vaccines wouldn't be safe because they were started under Drumpf suddenly changing their tune. Now it's plastered over every major network that, not only are these highly experimental vaccines supported by 0 longitudinal studies safe, we're going to insist the minority communities be the first to get them (outside of the initial front-line workers/high-risk/elderly being prioritized), and some areas are going as far as to implement vaccine passports (literally papers please if you want the privilege of leaving your own home/locale). It's enough to make anyone feel a little on edge.

Apr 12, 2021 - 2:04pm

My wife has worked in predominantly black communities for 5 years and they are super anti vax. They won't take it if you give it to them.

heister:

Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad.

https://arthuxtable.com/
  • Associate 1 in PE - LBOs
Apr 12, 2021 - 2:13pm

GoldenCinderblock

My wife has worked in predominantly black communities for 5 years and they are super anti vax. They won't take it if you give it to them.

I mean given the history of the US government using them as vaccine guinea pigs, and the continued use of countries in Africa for more or less the same, can you really blame them? I would be even more hesitant than I already am if I were in their shoes. The past year has done nothing to build and everything to weaken my trust in the Federal government, and the vaccine passports thing made me feel even more uncomfortable.

Apr 12, 2021 - 1:33pm

U raised a lot of interesting points. While i dont have a wife or kid(s) I understand ur dilemma. Im in college and since i dont have to worry about infecting anyone in a high risk category ive been able to go out and live my life normally-go to parties, eat with friends, hit the gym etc. Ive gotten the rona twice-once during fall sem when i was asymptomatic and again the first week of spring sem when I had fatigue for a day, a cough for a few days, and very little smell but that was it. 

Its crazy that theyre prob requiring people to get the vaccine for certain things, like the virus cant mutate and render the current vaccine obsolete. Idk y they cant just base decisions off hospitalization numbers or similar numbers still. For music festivals, theyre probably going to require some proof of vaccine and I can see many other events taking a similar approach in the future. If a good amount of people already have the vaccine, i have antibodies (and am apart of the lowest risk group), rates r low, why should i be required to get the vaccine? Colleges such as Cornell are requiring students to get vaccinated before theyre allowed to return to campus next fall as well

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Apr 12, 2021 - 2:06pm

What's the deal with antibodies? How do you catch Covid twice if antibodies are a thing?

heister:

Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad.

https://arthuxtable.com/
Apr 12, 2021 - 2:09pm

Antibodies last 3 months although now studies are saying they last 6 to 8 months. Who really knows. It is possible that the first one was a false positive or something since I didnt have symptoms, but all my buddies tested positive too and had symptoms. Shit makes no sense which kind of epitomizes the entire last year

Apr 12, 2021 - 1:35pm

You mention a few worrying social trends, but the most worrying of all IMO is people who have no idea what they are talking about (such as yourself) thinking that whatever thoughts they have are valid and should be shared. 

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Apr 12, 2021 - 2:08pm

PeterMBA2018

You mention a few worrying social trends, but the most worrying of all IMO is people who have no idea what they are talking about (such as yourself) thinking that whatever thoughts they have are valid and should be shared.

Sincerely, fuck you dude. He has valid concerns as would anyone reasonable with respect to taking an experimental treatment. Are you a Doctor? Betting not, so I guess you shouldn't be expressing your meaningless opinion either. In fact, no one should be allowed to share opinions except the experts. The same experts who have gotten almost everything wrong the first, second, and third time they've implemented some policy which they then have to quietly back-track on or adjust a month later once the news cycle picks up something different.

Edit 2 - Get your tinfoil hats ready everyone. Please, someone tell me that CNN and 60 Minutes are just spreading fake news:

CNN Health reports: CDC and FDA recommend US pause use of Johnson & Johnson's Covid-19 vaccine over blood clot concerns

Daily Mail reporting on a discussion the Pentagon had with 60 Minutes: Pentagon scientists reveal a microchip that senses COVID-19 in your body BEFORE you show symptoms and a filter that extracts the virus from blood

  • Officials who spoke to the 60 Minutes team said the Pentagon isn't looking to track your every move.

    A more detailed explanation was not given. 

Edit: posted later in this comment string but figured it's a fun list to highlight since this is a tinfoil hat thread anyway. All the following are 100% real and provide a few good reasons for not completely trusting the government in everything that they do/claim:

Apr 12, 2021 - 2:23pm

"Valid concerns" lol. No, these concerns are not valid, that's my point. But you are too lazy and too dumb to understand that. OP thinks there could be micropchips in the vaccine. 
 

OP doesn't even understand how vaccines work RE: *when* side effects would take place (hint: it's not months and months later). 
 

OP doesn't even understand that work began on these vaccines in 2003 when the first sars outbreak occurred, not a few months ago.

These are just two basic facts that an informed individual would be aware of before commenting. 
 

I'm sorry I'm not going to be gentle with some social freeloader who has accepted dozens of medical treatments throughout his life then suddenly thinks he has some secret knowledge about vaccines that haven't come to light yet despite 100m Americans receiving one. 
 

Lol @ you white knighting for some entitled moron because you think his nonsensical opinion should be heard. Dear god what a weak person you are. 

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Apr 12, 2021 - 2:22pm

when you dismiss one's points with the identification of another point in attempts to refute the argument, you fail. points must be refuted on their merits, not with red herrings. just because you think something is more concerning than what Goldie's concerned about does not remove the fact that Goldie has concerns nor does it make his concerns invalid.

is it not possible that both things exist: people are uneducated about things and then sharing with others, AND that there are other worrying social trends?

it is troubling that people are opining on things about which they do not have experience/data, however is that not the purpose of inquiry? to learn? 

TLDR - if you think someone has no idea what they're talking about, show that, don't just say it

Apr 12, 2021 - 2:35pm

He thinks a microchip being implanted in the vaccine is "feasible". He also thinks, without any irony, that there are too many stupid people in the world. 
 

Sick lecture on discourse tho bro, glad you took the time to type that out. 

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Apr 12, 2021 - 2:15pm

taleb is very pro-vaccine, though he's not been clear on if he prefers one to another. traditionally vaccines were just dead/inactivated virus, which makes the body antifragile. he is distrustful of new inventions which have not been around long enough to be tested and tinkered with for generations (he's vehemently against GMOs).

also, if all you read is NNT's twitter, you're missing 90% of his value. his books are way better and he's way less of a dick. plus there's no open comment section on the books so you don't have to scroll past trolls

Apr 12, 2021 - 2:44pm

Where'd you see him be overtly pro-vax? The last tweet I saw from him was some cryptic shit about how vaccination risk scales linearly and virus risk scales exponentially. That's from the societal standpoint -  but what about from the individual standpoint? When him and Musk offered niuanced views on the topic, they were like, 'Disclaimer: And btw for the record I'm pro-vax' which I read as 'I don't really wanna catch a ton of heat right now"

heister:

Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad.

https://arthuxtable.com/
Most Helpful
Apr 12, 2021 - 2:11pm

you should not be afraid of dying from covid, you should however weigh the pros and cons of potentially getting a bad case of covid and the potential for a novel disease to do things to your body you'd rather not have. I have a few friends who are in similarly good shape as me and both got covid, both recovered fine but had a pretty bad case of the flu, which is no picnic.

on the mRNA vaccines, RCTs are the single best way we can test safety and efficacy, but as you point out, we have no idea what iatrogenics could result from a new technology, even though it's been worked on for a while. we won't know this until this virus technology has been around for 50, maybe 100 years. we've been using inactivated virus for a while, mRNA sounds promising, but it's still new and I'm skeptical of everything.

that said, there's risk everywhere, you must take some risk - the risk you get covid and have a bad case/spread it to others, or you take a vaccine which could potentially have consequences to your health. you have to weigh where there could potentially be greater downside. Taleb would say the greater downside is with covid, as the aggregate deaths from covid would be higher than one person getting a bad side effect from the vaccine. vaccine side effects aren't multiplicative, covid is.

you'll also have to weigh the potential lifestyle intrusions against your fears. this is what got it for me. I'm unwilling to never travel again, and even if I wear a tinfoil hat and a mask while flying, at least I'm having a better vacation than my hyper conspiracy friends who spend weekends on reddit

for the reasons outlined above, I took the JNJ vaccine (I was given a choice). it's inactivated virus which speaks to taleb's antifragility concept and my distrust of new technologies. I believe that I'm more likely to get bad long term effects from covid (a novel virus) than from an inactivated virus vaccine, and the potential downsides of feeling crappy for a day (which I didn't, I was fine, zero symptoms) pale in comparison to potential downsides of covid. worst case scenario, I just boosted my immune system when it didn't need it. 

and on your exhibits, I'm, more like C with more sauna, less height, weight and fat. my friends who got covid are more like C than like A. many of them don't have as low BF as I do, but all have visible abs and exercise a lot more than A.

finally, lest I didn't make this clear, I have no idea if mRNA vaccines are the future and I'm being a luddite or if they'll be scrapped for ineffectiveness or worse in a few years. my fears are hopefully completely unfounded, but the way I approach risk, I'm way less likely to try something new, just the way I am. whether or not it's logical, I'm happy to be proven wrong, but as with most things, only time will tell. I sincerely hope someone tags me in this thread when I announce my retirement and points out my skepticism was unfounded

Apr 12, 2021 - 2:49pm

I love what you wrote about the new vs old tech in vaccines. I didn't know the different brands were made using different tech. So the JNJ one is made in a tried & true fashion? That's the 70% effective one? That's a middle ground I could live with, I think.

Like you, I'm sick and tired of this being a serious intrusion on my lifestyle and wellbeing. I'm just not willing to keep worrying about this for 5 years. It's time I either stopped caring or got vaccinated or something. I'm not gonna walk around worried I'm gonna infect my kid every day. This isn't serving me or my family in any way.

heister:

Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad.

https://arthuxtable.com/
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Apr 12, 2021 - 2:51pm

I'm almost positive that the JnJ vaccine does not include the inactivated virus for you the fight off and get immunity to (the "oldschool" method of vaccine). 

The delivery of JnJ is different than mRNA, but it still operates in somewhat of the same way, it entices your body to produce proteins to gain immunity to CoVid. 

https://www.conehealth.com/services/infectious-disease/johnson--johnson…

None of the currently available vaccines give you inactivated virus to fight off and gain immunity.

Apr 12, 2021 - 2:51pm

thanks for your comments, not being in healthcare I had a feeling I used wrong terminology, thanks for correcting me. I was told that JNJ is a disabled virus (adenovirus I think?) and so while it's not the same as polio, it's still older tech.

that said, kinda a moot point, already got my shot so whatever. to each his own brother.

also, serious question for all - if you get a vaccine and don't post a selfie, are you really vaccinated? /kidding

Apr 12, 2021 - 2:36pm

Hundreds of millions of Covid vaccine shots have been given. There have been some negative reactions, some serious. The physical reactions to the vaccines are not out of the ordinary relative to other vaccines. I'm not in a huge Covid risk category, but I'm willing to risk the unlikely negative reactions to the vaccine to avoid a potential long-term fight with Covid, which is also low in likelihood but worse in consequences than the vaccine. 

It's a simple math problem.

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Apr 12, 2021 - 2:49pm

You sure they don't all get early onset Alzheimer's in 8 years?

heister:

Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad.

https://arthuxtable.com/
Apr 12, 2021 - 2:51pm

m8

How do you know the long-term impact of the vaccine? 

You don't, so your "simple" math problem is missing critical data.

How do you know the long-term impact of any vaccine? New flu vaccines are created each year for new strains of the flu. The reality is, all of us are chalked full of all kinds of vaccinations and yet we mostly live long lives.

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  • Analyst 1 in S&T - Equities
Apr 12, 2021 - 2:49pm

Ugh! You are denying science and should be jailed immediately! Mods - please delete this post as it is spreading misinformation and report this person to the proper authorities. 

Apr 12, 2021 - 2:51pm

I personally will be getting it because I think the risk/benefit from getting the vaccine wildly outweighs the risk from getting COVID. Young, healthy people definitely do get really sick and have long term consequences from it. Not at the same rate as at-risk patients or older people, but there is definitely a chance and I just don't want to take that. I think having the Janssen vaccine as an option is good for people who do not trust mRNA vaccines. It is the traditional way we have made vaccines with an inactivated virus, and can be viewed as more in line with what we are used to, at the cost of a little efficacy. For the PFE and MRNA vaccines, I am generally not too concerned about their technology. Yes, it is new. But it has gone through very large trials with a lot of success, and the only way this could really hurt me is if there is something completely unforeseen in them that hits down the road. For something unknown to just "pop up" years later as a side effect has happened historically with a few drugs, but it is very uncommon. It is usually pretty reasonable to predict worse case scenario long-term side effects based on the actual components of the treatment. Obviously not possible to be 100% accurate, but they can get close. mRNA eventually breaks down and is basically cellular trash, so I'm curious if anything can really come from this. Maybe, but probably not, so worth it to me. I'll take the +20% efficacy.

My overall mindset regarding the mRNA and vaccine topic as a whole is that I'm not a scientist, and scientists do know more about this than I do, and probably most of you. This is factual. I think this is one of those times where I'm never going to know enough to make an actual, genuinely informed decision (the decision of someone not in the scientific community to take or not take the vaccine does not qualify as informed in my opinion--we just don't know as much as them), so I just got to go with whoever I trust more. All of the experts saying it is safe and worth it, or a few smart science people who are against it. I don't care what people outside this community think because they are not educated to the appropriate level on this topic to inform my decision and are not involved in the development of therapeutic treatments. At the end of the day, I am going with the numbers and siding with the "yes" team.

I disagree with your comments about letting part of the population die off (you may find it utilitarian, but I find it cruel) and microchips (I think this one is pretty far out there, but if you're right, fuck will I be eating my words lol). But I do think everyone is entitled to an opinion and glad you shared yours and started this discussion. It was interesting to read.

Dayman?
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  • VP in IB - Cov
Apr 12, 2021 - 2:52pm

Anyone who ever binge drinks or dabbles in stimulants has bigger things to worry about than the health- and safety-related unknowns with vaccines

Apr 12, 2021 - 2:52pm

I'm a fairly paranoid type and here are some ideas I think our political class is perfectly able to come up with, I'm not saying this is actually what's going on, but wild conclusions:

- an attempt to permanently alter mass behaviour in our societies, reducing things like for instance air travel to ''fight climate change''

- the already mentioned ''trimming'' of the elderly to ''save the pension system''

- a mass sterlization program through vaccines to reduce human population, also to ''fight climate change''

Obviously hearing things like Covid chips makes me sleep bad at night. There is a serious, serious issue in seeing the business community mass lobbying for Covid passports and then things like this coming up.

''The freer the market, the freer the people''? My ass. What truly frightens me is the cowardice of the population, me included. There's very little, mostly disorganized, resistance to this crap.

Never discuss with idiots, first they drag you at their level, then they beat you with experience.

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Apr 12, 2021 - 2:52pm

Yeah man... this shit is weird. I think I'd rather take my chances with Covid at this point

heister:

Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad.

https://arthuxtable.com/
Apr 12, 2021 - 2:52pm

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Only two sources I trust, Glenn Beck and singing woodland creatures.
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