'Guaranteed To Break In' - Can I Claim My Money Back?
End result: got my money back.
I paid to join a recruitment firm that 'guarantee' you a job in investment banking (or your chosen industry) if you follow their methods.
I put down a hefty deposit, was told the remaining can be paid once I get a job (similar to WSO package where they take a % of your salary).
I have tried the methods for months now and I'm still unemployed.
I've spoken to the director of the firm and he said if I get a job in another industry he will not charge any more money (I have this in writing). However he will take the remaining fees if I break in.
He refuses to refund the initial deposit I put down in order to join them as they claim they did their best in trying to help me secure a job (but all the documents provided were outdated, I've never had interview practice sessions with them as I've not required this, the networking strategies were no different to whats available on WSO/M&I and my allocated mentor has been ignoring my emails for months).
Should I claim the original money back (given that they have broken several clauses in the contract already e.g. to reply within 3-5 working days) or shall I just leave it (as I'm unlikely to break in now)?
You'll probably have to sue, but if you do, you should be able to get your money back, depending on the details of the contract.
This is what I thought. I researched and found a small claims court procedure (fill out forms, they have a judge, its quite cheap also) but I wasn't sure if my case was strong enough. They can always 'blame me' for not trying hard enough (but I have email referrals, proof of calls made, linkedin messages/connections and dated emails showing the violation on their side as evidence). The other problem is their HQ is in the USA and I'm in the UK.
you should probably give us the name of the firm
Seems pointless to "pay" for networking help. All the information is in front of you. I'm at a non-target and I still have found at least 100 people in BBs from NYC, Chicago to LA and although not all have helped i've gotten a very solid group to help me get interviews. I considered paying for programs before, but then I realized how you are basically paying for training you will recieve on the job. You want to do the basics before hand and have a good working knowledge but no "company" can get you a job. Well unless you consider college a "company" these days.
In my opinion, you have no remedies at law other than what's in the contract (I suspect you can't claim duress or unconscionable either). As far as filing a lawsuit, I surmise you are limited to arbitration as the venue for solving disputes. Lots of people don't realize that these "guarantees" are best efforts commitments.
Guys, don't believe this guy for one second. He's sent me false pms, he's posted numerous times where people have thrown monkey shit at him for his antics, he's a spammer, a troll, get rid of this guy.
he doesn't seem to be trying to scamming us in any way though... @"cujo.cabbie" please give us the name of the firm you paid please
Make sure you read the requirements for small claims court carefully. There is only a limited subset of cases that eligible for adjudication there.
@matayo I PMd you the name as I don't want to name/shame the company until I receive a final word from the director (or the court).
@creamofthecrop - you are 100% correct. I was lured into thinking this company had additional strategies/different strategies to what is out there, I was shown a list of successful clients etc and when I joined I realised it wasn't what was pitched. However I thought if I still give it my best shot maybe I can break in. Now when I ask for client names, proof of the methods working etc then the company dodges my question. When I give counterexamples or show the strategy isn't working for me they claim they are an advisory and I don't have to take their advice (like a lawyer).
@brj I have evidence of the broken contract. The main issue I'm facing is location. They sent me documents from the UK but are not telling me the UK address they sent it from and claiming they only operate from the USA so if I want to submit papers I can send it there (to a PO box). I'm not sure what a UK court can do for me in this case.
This is ridiculous. You should start taking some responsibility for your actions. It's 100% your fault that you didn't break in.
@hhodik - please do not misunderstand this thread. I'm not blaming them for being unable to break in - I am at fault for sure. My point was that I'm unlikely to be able to break in now so joining them was unfruitful. Also, the 'support' provided violated the contract e.g. they replied after months (if even that) when the contact clear says they will reply within 3-5 working days, when I asked for help on improving my networking strategy they didn't provide any support (when they claimed they would), when I asked for ideas/methods they said were 'different to what is out there and work 100%' they didn't come up with anything, they promised technical training that would help me on technical interviews (instead posted me some photocopied documents none of which included questions that are typically asked) and so on. It seems like there is a failure on both sides and I wanted to end the contract amicably but they refuse to refund the money at all (or at least part of the money).
So because you dont see yourself being able to break in you get your money back? If i buy a burrito at chipotle and it doesnt look like im gonna finish it despite trying as hard as i can does that mean i can get my money back too?
Technically, Chipotle did not make a guarantee that you could finish the burrito, so suing them for not being able to finish the burrito would be a lawsuit without merit and I would like to believe that any decent man would find a means of finishing said burrito, but your overall point is on the right track.
can you pm me the name of the company?
I cringed when I read through your post, OP.
Seriously. Take this as a lesson learned the hard way. Spend more time on this site instead.
This is sad on so many levels.
Yup I agree.
What can this "recruitment" firm provide you that is not available for free on this site, similar sites, or through your network?
I joined them prior to knowing about WSO etc. They 'promised' strategies to help you secure interviews (and preparation for interviews/ACs etc) to ensure you are successful in landing a job within your chosen industry. Only after I joined I realised they offered nothing different to the 'free' information available on WSO/M&I etc but still tried for my best using the methods they provided. I have not broken in, they cannot provide any reason why/other strategies to help me break in, so I don't see why a refund is not in order.
In your initial post you state that they guarantee a job and now you are saying they promised to try. Get it straight which you think it is.
If you believe that is is a guarantee of a job, you lose the case because you are confusing a guarantee to TRY with a guarantee to SUCCEED. While their wording could lead someone to believe that they will get you a job in IB, their true message is that they will TRY to get you into IB. There are simply too many outside variables for a reasonable mind (standard for most legal matters) to actually expect a firm to guarantee a job. Let's say by a miracle, they are able to get you an offer from GS tomorrow but as you begin the background check process, GS does not like something in your history and they rescind your offer. You couldn't sue the firm because something in your past held up an offer.
If you want to argue breach of contract in terms of guarantee to try, you have a better chance of winning but I still think you lose. For you to win, you would have to prove that they didn't help at all but I think being in contact with the director is evidence that they extending their hand to help you. The firm and the court is going to ask you to prove exactly how they didn't try, which would require you to prove that you reasonably know how they should do their job and they failed to do. If you state that, they would ask that if you know how it works then why did you hire them or claim that you know this now as a result of the assistance they gave, or a combination of both arguments. Ultimately, you are backed in a corner and getting out is going to be much harder than giving up and learning your lesson.
Also, you mentioned earlier that they are in the US and you are in the UK, unless it is explicitly stated in the contract, lawsuits involving the firm would need filed in the jurisdiction of business office/founding/incorporation/etc. (US). However a company can opt out of this if it is explicitly stated in the contract or they agree now to deal with this issue in the UK. My bet is that they will want to make this troublesome and want this to be tried in US courts.
LMAOOOO Thanks for the Friday funnies!
Prostitutes guarantee you a good time but if you can't nut are you gonna sue them...?
@brooj14 - yes this is why I posted up - should I leave it or pursue it. Seems like I just lost a tonne of money :(
Just to clarify - I agree the 'guarantee' part is ambiguous. What I was intending on getting a refund over was using the following:
They claim this in the contract: “Training and Networking Services” means the provision of written or verbal advice to the Client on any of the following: interview skills, networking with professionals, career development, changing jobs, self-marketing, assessment and research I've never had any interview skills sessions, when I ask about career development I don't get any replies, self-marketing/networking I follow their advice and haven't been successful anywhere and when I go back to them to ask how I can improve they ignore me.
They claim this too: Firm acknowledges that the Client considers a full-time, permanent job which pays an annual salary of less than £40,000 be unsatisfactory. I'm on £0.00 at the moment.
They claim: [Mentor will] always replies to emails promptly, usually within one business day (accordingly an email sent on Friday at 15:00 would not be replied to until Monday at 15:00). I've been waiting for months, despite following up, and have not received any reply (including from the Director).
They claim there are only these 3 methods for breaking in. 1. Online applications - I do these, get them checked over by people at banks/my careers service but am rejected pre-interview. 2. Recruitment agencies - again I am referred but get nowhere. 3. Networking/referrals - I have been referred for several IB positions but never actually received an interview. When I'm explaining this to them they just say they have nothing else to offer. If these don't work then what else am I supposed to try (if they also have no idea what else to try)?
1) The key word in your first point is ANY of the following. They do not have to provide you will all of those services, just at least one, which they did. 2) You forgot a key part of contract law, which is date. If it read "By 6/13/14, if client has not obtained a full time job with at least 40k comp, then we have failed", you could potentially argue this point, but since there is not a date, the court is going to base it on a reasonable time, and now you are arguing to the judge what a reasonable time for them to complete their task and get you a job is (hint: there is no reasonable time, too many variables). 3) Now you have to define promptly, maybe they didn't reply because there was no useful information they could provide in regards to your inquiry. Also, remember usually is not the same as always. Spoiler Alert: the same three ways they work to get you into IB is basically how everyone in the world gets in a job, so you paid for useless advice. Also you end by saying "If these don't work, then what else am I supposed to try?" Guess what, that is exactly the same thing the firm is going to say.
Okay, from this post it paints the picture that they did everything that they advertised. I think that for these "services" that guarantee jobs in IB or other competitive industry what you're really paying for is their referrals with people they know in the industry/recruitment agencies. I'm sure what is likely the case is that they use the same contacts over and over again, so while you're technically getting back-door access, at the same time you have to compete with the other people who bought their services. If this agency forwards resumes to the same handful of bankers, then the odds of them picking your resume out of the pack is unlikely, especially if you're not that competitive of a candidate (which sounds like is your case, no offense). It is also pretty unlikely that they really push your name with their contacts any harder than forwarding your information.
It sucks that you wasted your money, but I don't think you have a case here.
You got hustled, chalk it up to the game and move on. Don't be so gullible next time. This surely isn't the best use of your time.
How much did you pay?
@brooj14 - I guess I should just keep a printout of them saying they won't take more money if I end up in another industry and find my own way now? Looks like I've lost that deposit for good.
@stryfe
They have never given me any contacts to network with. Their 'new networking strategy' was to search LinkedIn for my own contacts. When I sent the email template they made up I received 0 replies. When I used my own template I received a tonne more replies several of which resulted in referrals.
They have never referred me over to any of their contacts either. When I asked for a list of current clients that I could contact they dodged the question. I've asked several times and they keep dodging the question. Perhaps they don't actually have anyone?
When I ask for them to call me/or I call them they ignore me again and give a generic email reply instead (typically keep sending me the 1/2/3 bullet points above).
So in essence all they have been doing is generically emailing me (ie giving 'advice' which till date has proved useless) but play no active role in helping or answering any of my questions (including why I'm not getting through, how to improve etc).
Why do you feel I'm not a competitive candidate? I graduated from a target with good grades and have relevant IBD experience. For arguments sake suppose I am not competitive - when I ask them how can I improve or should I target something else - they just say they don't know or something else generic.
You're not a competitive candidate because you're the type of person who thinks that paying some BS recruitment agency to get you a job was actually a viable strategy...like cmon, even when I was a desperate, clueless 20-year old college junior I knew those things were too good to be true (at best) or scams (at worse).
Do you not get interviews, or do you get interviews and flunk them? I have a hard time believing the former if you truly did graduate from a target with good grades.
@mrb87
I admit I made a mistake joining them but given I made the mistake I thought I may as well utilise them as best as I can and try to break in. It's not happened so I was hoping to get some refund but it seems this wont be the case and I've just got to accept it. I deserve the MS I am getting - it was a stupid decision - but other then to follow what they say and try breaking in what was I supposed to do after all their 'clients' vanished?
I didn't join them and expect to sit back and get a job. I was led to believe they would provide much more guidance and support (training, who to contact etc) than they actually did provide.
Surprisingly it's the former. If I was flopping interviews or getting offers and failing background checks then that is clearly a fault on my side. The fact that my network, the recruitment agency and my careers service do not know what went wrong leaves me confused on next steps on terms of breaking in. Rather then waste another year unemployed I thought its better to get some sort of job and in the meantime try to break in using any free time.
I don't see how the recruitment agency will benefit me in any way now (everything they have told me I have found on WSO etc) so I don't see the need for the contract to go on any further. I posted on here for ideas for the best resolution - and the best solution seems to be just leaving it alone. Am I wrong?
Have a friend in law school of better yet a practicing lawyer look over the doc.
My 2 cents: paying a lot for this kind of service is 99% of the time a rip-off. It's like the modelling agencies that ask you to pay to get you work. Or the acting agencies that ask for your money to get you film roles. Hmmm...you don't pay for work...you get paid to work.
Would have been cheaper to go with the breaking in guide (www.theibanker.com/guides) or more fun sleeping with a senior banker's wife...if she asks for more you insist she gets the hubby to get you a gig :)
I guess I haven't tried everything after all haha. Thank you for the link.
Leaving aside the merits of this case, you should never, ever pay a recruiter/headhunter. They get paid by employers, not employees. Anyone who tries to tell you different is b.s. and you're going to get ripped off. Any retained or even true & honest contingent recruiter would never try to get money from an employee. Their client is the company. That's why they try to collect as many resumes as possible: so when they receive an assignment, they have a massive database of prospects to choose from.
You can pay a resume writing company but that's going to be a few hundred at most and sometimes in layoff/termination packages you may get a third party career counselor or coach but they're never going to say they'll get you a job, they just give you advice on cleaning up your resume, tips on networking and how to get in, interview coaching, etc. And your former employer will pay for that.
Good points Dingdon08.
Agree, a resume editing company makes sense.
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