As the old saying goes: hindsight is 20/20. After being in college for 3 years, it's clear to me what I should've done from the beginning. But have I realized it too late? Am I going to become forever unemployed because of that?
My peers who get into IBD live as if their lives were mapped out before college. I have not done that, and now I suppose I'm paying the price for it.
What I should've done:
1. Start off with intended career in IBD
I attend a prestigious midwestern school (Northwestern/WashU/Chicago/Michigan/Rice/UIUC-I won't say which one). I started college intending to go into science/engineering, only to realize after freshman year it wasn't suitable for me. I pretty much wasted all of freshman year and now can't graduate on time because of all the other classes I need to take to fulfill the business major requirements.
I know the average college student changes majors twice before graduating, but people in IBD aren't average people. I haven't met a single investment banker who switched majors; they're master of the universe to an extent; they can't afford to make mistakes. I have never gotten a formal internship from a recruiting company because I think they (especially banks) see switching majors as a huge red flag, showing lack of commitment.
The other thing is that the difficult science courses I took freshman year tanked my GPA to about 3.0. I have since managed to bring back up to over 3.5 (My GPA is 3.8 if you don't consider the irrelevant courses I took freshman year), but when I'm competing with Ivy Leaguers who all have 4.0s, do I even stand a chance?
2. Choose a different major
I've read articles that employers, especially banks, hate business majors because the regard the curriculum as too easy and prefer liberal arts majors, who have supposedly shown stronger math and reading skills. I do question the validity of these stories, but if they are true, then I should've done a liberal arts major in Economics or Math, and coupled that with Finance; if I did that I probably would be graduating on time too.
3. Be ahead of the learning curve
There's definitely a learning curve in professional skills, especially in interviewing. I can't explain in detail, but as time went on, I became more comfortable networking, contacting recruiters, and structuring my interview responses. But I often as if I caught on to this too late.
I once thought I my school, given its reputation, would teach me all this, but I was wrong. After wasting time realizing I had to learn this all on my own, I can't imagine how many opportunities I had missed because I was so behind the learning curve.
4. Join the investment club
This is literally IBD 101. If I had joined this sooner, I would be more knowledgeable by now.
5. Joined a fraternity (social or professional)
People in fraternities ALWAYS get the best jobs. I stayed away from this scene because I thought these people liked partying too much or were too obnoxious. But it they get jobs, then it's clear they're doing it right. If I had to put up with constantly drinking and blacking out every week and risk getting caught by the police, it's fine so long as I get a job.
So that was my rant. Again, all of this is what I HAVE done now, but wonder if it's too late. Besides that, I intended to help anyone who reads this and still in the early days of college. Don't make the mistakes I did. If it's too late for me, I can at least prevent it from happening to others.
thanks i kinda regret the whole fraternity thing too don't really like the people, but it seems like they land good jobs
are you a college senior? are you majoring in business?
if you don't get in, you could always consider the MBA route
Dude. Breathe.
First of all, people in IBD aren't infallible, and they don't come out of the womb knowing that this is what they want to do. I went into college thinking I was going to double major in Spanish and economics, and didn't even know what investment banking was.
Second, you have a good GPA from a good school. Not to mention because you are taking a fifth year, it means you have an extra summer to get an internship (after your fourth year) to position you for a full time offer when you graduate. Nobody is saying you have a "lack of commitment" for switching majors. It happens all the time. Just have a good story ready to go about what sparked your interest in finance, and how that is has grown through the present. (See the mergers & inquisitions youtube video about answering the "about me" question).
Third, you can get into banking with any major. One of my good buddies was a bio major (and didn't have all that great of a GPA) and managed to get an offer with a very reputable bank. Everyone has a different story, just know why you want to be there and make sure the recruiter/HR/interview/people you network with understand as well.
Fourth: Interviewing is a skill. Just like anything else it requires practice. It is not a particularly hard thing to master. I'd recommend getting a technical guide and fit guide (like the WSO ones) and look through those. Understand the fundamentals of accounting and finance and be able to pass the Tokyo test. As for on the job: every intern and first year analyst is as fucking clueless as the next. Everyone is starting from near 0 experience and has to learn everything from how to technically do their job, to how to interact with clients and senior team members, and how to put up with the stress of working 100+ hours per week. This is not shit you will learn in school, nor will anyone with whom you are working.
Fifth: Investment club or not, you can still get a job. I wasn't in mine. Most of what you do is not applicable to a job in banking (it would be more applicable to say AM or something). Again, as long as you have other things that show you are interested in finance you will be fine.
Six: Your view of fraternities is pretty fucked up. I had 9 of my 19 pledge brothers graduate phi beta kappa, 8 will have doctorates within the next 4 years (JD/MD/PhD) and another 5 work in banking and will be getting MBAs, we raised hundreds of thousands of dollars for charities over a few years, and we still raged 4 nights a week. That aside, when it comes to jobs, your fraternity is just another network for your to tap into. You need to network like hell, but you should be fine. Use your alumni database, coldcall, and just get your foot in the door.
And seriously, breathe.
great advice, Silver Banana for you!
Yeah, relax. You're overreacting significantly.
To illustrate: I started as a science major, and messed around too much freshman year- first semester GPA was below 3.0. Next semester was around a 3.8, so I pulled it up pretty quickly- that being said, freshman year GPA was only around 3.3. I switched to a finance major, and even had to transfer to a different school because of financial reasons- not only that, but I was an international student in the US and I had to transfer to a school back home. I have not been involved in the finance club, and only joined the investment club at the start of my junior year. No relevant internships until the start of my junior year. No fraternity involvement, and no significant networking. Didn't pick up a technical guide to questions/interview guides till right before interviews. Shit, because I like the US I came back on a student exchange for all of my junior year, and briefly went home during the US summer for recruiting. End result- I'm heading into my SA in IB at a top global bank. IB is at least as competitive in my home country as it is in the US (based on my knowledge and what I've heard from other interns, around 0.4-0.5% of people who apply for SA IB spots get them).
Moral of the story is you don't have to fit the cookie-cutter profile you described above to end up in IB. Find another way to tell your story/get looked at.
Thanks for all your comments. I haven't gotten any offers yet and the tension is really building up in my head.
As far as the MBA route goes, I still need to find some work experience before even thinking about an MBA. Although IBD is my top choice, I think it'd be stupid if I focus ONLY on IBD and limiting my career path. An alum I spoke with told me ANY kind of financial experience is valuable for IBD; he didn't intern at a bank but ended up going to Sagent after graduating. For instance, I'm also interested in internships in at government agencies pertaining to finance. Of course, I can't tell banks that at interviews.
I'll admit that despite being behind the learning curve for a while, I have gotten better. I've been reading the Vault guide extensively and really got familiar with the common technical questions and how to structure behavioral questions. My last interview was at Barclays and I got the technicals right; granted, they were very easy technicals, but it's still an improvement considering a year ago, I always blank out on even the simplest technical questions.
Since I am behind, I have done my best to differentiate myself, but it doesn't seem to be working as well as I thought.
-My friend is opening a new investment business and I'm helping him out with that -I started a new club on campus that's quickly growing -I was involved in a non-profit organization for over a year and made a huge impact on public policy changes -I got the opportunity to work an Honors Thesis -Really cranked up the networking and coldcalling. I think I'm close to securing a part-time investment banking internship in January (Well the MD said to call him back in 2 months, so I'm not 100% sure). -Got a chance to help out an MD for another bank during this winter break on M&A advisory -Attended an externship at Capital One, if that's anything special (It was invitational and all expense paid)
I would agree with bank-on-this. I changed my major three times before settling in finance, did not learn about IB until my first internship into Junior Year, never joined a fraternity, and so on. Learned about IB from a wide variety of sources and hustled to get to where I am today. Calm down and map what steps you can take to land a good role after school (Does not have to be IB, but moreso a job you fill will be the a good step into developing your post-graduate career).
If that's the case, how did you land that internship at all? Banks won't just recruit anyone "trying it out," they want people who are strongly committed to banking from the very beginning. The fact you "did not learn about IB until your first internship" really raises some questions.
Unless of course, you're saying you felt committed BEFORE applying to and then brushed up your IBD knowledge before applying. In which case, disregard what I just said.
I just find it frustrating in that for the longest time, I thought it was okay to be uncertain whether you really want to go into IBD; I thought an internship is supposed to answer that questions. But now, I know that even as an intern (the lowest of the low), you can't just be testing the waters; you have to show strong commitment.
Another thing I will say is that too many people on this website, especially college students (and admittedly, at one point even me) have this IB or nothing mentality, and seem to look down at almost any other career path and think that IB is the only path to career happiness- it's funny, because you also see so many people here actually IN IB analyst roles who complain about it and say they hate it. Keep in mind that if you don't get IB, it's not the end of the world. There are other things that you could do that you may even enjoy much more.
I applied for the internship through my application on my school's OCR portal and interviewed on-site (the role was for class credit, so that was a plus). On that job, a mentor asked me what I wanted to do in Finance and I looked into different professions before I came across IB. With my mentor's advice and my own research, I concluded that IB was a path I believe the best use of my skill set and worked towards getting into the industry.
You can be uncertain about IBD (plenty of people who get in the industry are uncertain about being in the field themselves), but this uncertainty cannot be seen in an interview. The time commitment it requires is too great to take a chance on someone you can see leaving after a few months (This is the though).
As an FYI, it took me two years from when I first expressed interest in IB to land an SA IB role and three years to land a FT IB role (interestingly enough, off-cycle).
You got to keep pushing forward with networking and being on top of interview skills. Good Luck!!!
Also, I'm not hating on fraternity guys at all. They're good people for sure. I just didn't like the whole fraternity party setting. But I still regret not joining one because overall, I really misinterpreted what fraternities are for: building strong brotherhoods, not crazy partying (though that still happens frequently).
And one more thing- while something like corporate finance/corporate banking etc might be the most relevant kind of internship before getting an IB internship/job, and while working at a government agency may not be the best path because the role would have almost nothing to do with IB (I imagine), I think you're wrong if you're saying banks would look down at/dislike financial regulatory work (if that's really what you meant and I didn't misread anything).
No I definitely agree with you about those who use this website. I guess this is just a phase I (and probably many others) am going through. After all, this site is called Wall Street Oasis, so it only makes sense.
And I didn't say banks look down on financial regulatory or any kind of work. In fact, I completely agree with you because, after talking to that alum, I know that ANY finance-related work experience is useful in IBD. That's why I choose NOT to limit myself to IBD, although it is my first choice.
Also, it's funny you mentioned that in your second comment, because I'm not sure if ANY kind of non-IB experience, even finance related, has anything to do with IB. Most people do PWM before IBD, but I'd imagine not even that is completely relevant. One of my friends even told me I'm at a disadvantage because he said my experiences (accounting and commercial banking) don't show an interest in IBD. Is he right though? I realize commercial banking is much different but it still taught me how financial institutions work. And had it not been for my accounting experience, I never would've answered those technical questions right at Barclays.
You may be at a disadvantage when it comes to competing with other Ivy league kids with IB experience (but hey, who isn't?) but if there really is a disadvantage, it isn't significant and is easily surmountable- if you have a solid resume/application overall, and you can tell your story for why IB- this might be the most important part, and should be easy to do with an accounting and commercial banking background- you should have a shot at IB, sure. My background was purely ER-related before I got my junior year SA IB offer.
You may be at a disadvantage when it comes to competing with other Ivy league kids with IB experience (but hey, who isn't?) but if there really is a disadvantage, it isn't significant and is easily surmountable- if you have a solid resume/application overall, and you can tell your story for why IB- this might be the most important part, and should be easy to do with an accounting and commercial banking background- you should have a shot at IB, sure. My background was purely ER-related before I got my junior year SA IB offer.
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