I'm torn between investment banking and software development.. I prefer the latter for the moment, as I'm not a big fan of Excel, but the exit opps are pretty damn good for an ibanking analyst.
Anyway, I'm wondering what your experiences have been with developers at hedge funds (or other top-tier areas of finance). What grades, experience and educational background are required and what are working hours, salary and culture like? Is entering the industry as an undergrad with a similar salary to that of an ibanker unheard of? Oh and lastly, I'm guessing C++ and Matlab are the most commonly used languages, right?
It'd be great to hear from an actual developer, but any info at all will do
Thanks a lot
Seriously? Do you really prefer the latter? Think about it for a week and then re-post your thoughts...
C++/Matlab are standard for support roles at quantitative HFs.
why does trolling have to find its way into every online community ever created..
what makes you so sure that in a week he'd prefer ibd?
respect/ $/ less politics
less politics in IBD vs software? I have no experience, but find that surprising.
You're going to get flamed by a lot of people who haven't even stepped foot into the IB world.
If you want to get a little insight on HF Software Careers, PM me.
rothy, you should try to keep it public, I'm also interested in HF software jobs ha
i hung out with a developer at one of the top props in chicago. He loved it, but he admitted that if he could do it over again he would have chosen a bay area job instead of being somewhat of a second class citizen in trading.
sorry for the double post. protectedclass, that's a good point. it's another factor that's a bit worrying
To the OP:
Are you talking about MO\BO type coding roles or more FO oriented dev work? I'd guess most places with one have the other...
I think that the non-risk coding roles are better than other non-risk roles. FO coding is something that can vary pretty widely, so it's very hard to discuss in general. I can write code (and do sometimes), but it isn't my primary value add.
C++, Matlab and Python are all relatively common from what I've seen and heard.
I really don't know the difference between both.. What's front-office coding exactly?
This forum has probably got millions of posts on FO vs. BO\MO, but to briefly recap: FO jobs generate revenue, and take risk, directly. Everyone else is support in some sense.
When I analyze potential investments, it is sometimes difficult if not impossible to develop a satisfactory model in excel. I will work with whatever tool is most appropriate for the job, which sometimes means writing code. I am certainly not a software developer, sorry if I was misleading before.
I don't know much about this, but HFT and other black box trading systems also make coding a fairly central, and I would imagine FO, job responsibility.
By comparison, those in support coding roles are not doing securities or market analysis directly, though they sometimes develop software tools to aid FO people. Instead, they are typically focused on risk management, data processing, software tool trading tool development or operations. Support roles are not as presitigious and are typically not paid on the same scale as FO employees (they are cost centers, not profit centers). This is what people mean when they say that developers are sort of second class citizens in finance.
I'd be curious to hear how others in roles somewhat similar to mine view coding and how much of it they end up doing if they'd care to share. It's not exactly part of my "typical" day, but neither is it atypical.
PM if you want (some) more details.
Not sure, but when I think of HFT, I think of HF service providers. Portfolio, Risk Management, Order Management, Execution Management products for HFs.
I think there is definitely a high demand for these types of products now since A) Investors demand more transparency to their investments B) Increased HF regulation/due dilligence from FoF and C) The emergence of cloud computing.
If you want to know the honest truth, HFs are starting to eliminate their in house programmers/OPs guys and opting to go with a neutral third party provider to manage their PNL, risk, and portfolio management. As a result, there are a lot of small and upcoming third party hedgefund software developers who are sprouting up all over the place.
I know that a lot of third party vendors exist providing solutions to common hedge fund ops needs like those you mention and I agree completely that a lot of stuff that is currently done in house at many shops would likely be more efficient if it were done by a third party. However, I'm personally a little skeptical that mid size to larger places (say $1-2+ billion AUM or so? maybe $5+? $10+?) will end up outsourcing all of that stuff, simply because past a certain size it's not a big resource drain to pay ops full time and you might start worrying about vendor stability and\or want more customized & higher quality stuff than they offer. You could also want someone to yell at on site (or at least employed by your firm if they're in India) if your PnL or positions get fucked up.
However, and I know less than I would like here, I would distinguish OMS systems and Barra type risk analytics from what I mean by HFT. There are plenty of execution algorithms of varying degrees of sophistication, but genuine black box trading seems likely to be a pretty different game. I also feel like almost everyone I've ever met from some big firms (ex. Citadel) was at least pretty good at coding. So I find it mildly hard to believe all programming will be outsourced in the future...just my perspective tho.
Custom Software for Hedge Funds (Originally Posted: 03/29/2012)
Hi guys,
I have a question about an interesting topic...
We're a team of developers/quants with experience on Wall Street (ranging from 7 to 30 years of exp.). I am the only one who really wants to make a leap forward and become independent and get clients based ON PROJECT not stupid 8-10 hours/day work at their office.
Now, please understand: I don't mind to be at clients office from time to time to work closer on a project... BUT I really do NOT understand why they prefer to hire you as an independent contractor paying you on hourly/daily basis than you paying FOR ACTUAL WORK. ?!
Please understand in software business it is hard to estimate how much time a project exactly takes to accomplish! So if I am a contractor who gets paid for TIME SPENT at a hedge fund's office every day I will be doing my job slower than if I AM PAID FOR an actual project delivered. In other words: client does NOT care how much time we program as long as I am in preset time-frame. etc. We basically estimate the cost of project, set deadline and start working! Benefits of this approach: 1. Better quality - because i WANT another project from the client 2. Quicker turnaround - because I NEED my money quicker 3. More effective solutions, dollars/time ect.
SO my questions is: WHY it is so hard to find a project? We currently have a contract with a HF in Luxembourg (Europe) but we're a Manhattan based company. We need local clients.
I am interested in hearing your opinions.
Best regards, T
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