Women are only people in a technical sense?

Hey,

I just wanted to get a social discussion going. I noticed that men talk a lot of shit about women on these forums- which is sorta a window into the darkness. I can tell that they resent women a lot. They're sort of seen as frivolous distractions, scammers (the whole alimony/child support/gold digging narrative), or unwanted inferiors (older women are seen as either annoying or worthless just because they can't have kids or aren't as desirable anymore.) They're evaluated among different dimensions. Essentially, they're viewed as sexual/reproductive assets that are depreciating. It seems they're only discussed positively when it's about physical stuff. This to me that's kinda messed up. In Europe I've seen different attitudes. I think that extreme capitalist values have caused everyone to be dehumanized to some extent, but for women there's a different dimension to it that has more to do with being reduced to a body. I think men are objectified as machines/productive assets whereas women are objectified as sexual commodities/reproductive assets. Everyone's fucked over but at least the role men have isn't trivialized or seen as tangential to society.

Also, for women who actually wanna be something more than a mom or someone's cumbox, there's not much recognition. I feel like we're viewed with suspicion and seen as intruders who are changing things for the worse by entering the professional spectrum. There's a general hatred in American high finance of things associated with femininity (softness, weakness, empathy, etc.) and attempts to bring those things into the workplace are usually shot down, even when they could make everyone happier. The U.S. has bad labor laws and bad maternity leave protections, so a lot of women are pushed out of the workplace with motherhood. Men can have both but women really can't unless they have a stay at home dad, which is hard to come by (or expensive nannies.)

I feel the climate is telling me I don't deserve to have what men can have just because my body is different, and that's bullshit. There's also a barrage of people saying that women are leeching off men financially or tricking them. That's not true for everyone, and the women who relate a lot to men (because they have to do everything themselves) aren't seen as allies, but instead find themselves lonely and alienated.

I'm pretty introverted and I don't play most of these status-signalling games that women are supposed to play. I haven't dated anyone or slept with anyone for 2 years. I can't remember the last time a man paid for my shit. I only talk to people to network or discuss the few topics I can have long convos about. I'm just sort of minding my own business and trying to get by like the rest of us.

That said, it kinda upsets me to think that people around me probably either see me as invisible (I'm not that pretty), as an enemy (for being on the opposite side of the gender divide), or as an object. There are problems specific to me and specific to women, and I shouldn't have to pretend they're not real just to be seen as an equal. People should care about things that don't affect them, but often these problems are not viewed maturely and compassionately. The reality is bigotry doesn't have to be racial and moral progress doesn't always happen uniformly. I am also black but feel there is a moratorium on beliefs that race can impact the capacity for intelligence or logic. In terms of gender, this is not the case. Pregnancy, periods, vaginas, and estrogen are still seen as things that make you incapable of logic, objectivity, or humanity. It's very soul-crushing to constantly be a third party to conversations that show you how others feel like you're beneath them because of your reproductive system. Again, I feel like the negativity might relate to financial drain. Lots of guys are taking women shopping, supporting them, or paying off their ex-wives. That sucks and I feel for them. That said, only some women are pampered, but all are scorned. I'm not getting laid, I have to pay for all my shit- what's the difference between me and the rest of the miserable fuckers out here? I just sorta wanna blend in and be respected, you know? Not in spite of being a woman, but in abstract. Is there a way to transcend this bullshit?

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Comments (18)

Funniest
Sep 5, 2018

Well, you just made a multi paragraph post rambling on about your feelings without offering any solutions. So........

    • 11
Sep 12, 2018

Yeah, that's true. Usually I'm dead inside, which is why finance was a natural choice. However, every 3 years or so, for a couple of minutes, I give a fuck. Regret it every time.

    • 1
Sep 5, 2018

.

    • 3
Sep 5, 2018

Start dating and having one night stands with guys paying for shit. It will make you feel powerful and in control again.

    • 1
Sep 12, 2018

Look, first, we've already established I was ugly. Why else would I be busting my ass for a check? Second, even if I could theoretically scrounge up some Tinder rando to pay for my food, that's not really what I'm looking for. I just want recognition and respect that's not based on anything sexual or physical

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Sep 12, 2018

Based on what then? Athleticism? Accomplishment? Wit? Humor? I feel like you've got none of those. Maybe you need to look inward first.

heister:

Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad.

    • 1
Sep 12, 2018

Women are great. People are more than work and women have a better sense of that, unless they try to act like a man.

Sep 12, 2018

I'm sorry but maybe it's because you are, as you put it so eloquently put it, a miserable fucker? No one wants to hang out with, let alone date, someone who is negative and whiney..

Might be worth trying to be more positive, take care of yourself (when you say ugly, I'm not sure if you mean fat, poor skin care, or what, but most can be dealt with by yourself) and stop thinking the world is against you. It's likely your personality holding you back, because most women do find guys to date and marry..

    • 1
Sep 12, 2018

Why is this so fucking long. What makes you think I'm going to read all that shit? TLDR

Sep 12, 2018

I know having a big difference that isolates you from whatever group you want to join can be hard. I've met a lot of successful women who have found a way to deal with these insecurities, and in my mind overcome them. Unfortunately, I can't relate. While there's a chance someone here will answer, we all know this site is pretty male dominated.

My advice is to search HBR (who write plenty on this) or approach someone in industry who has overcome it.

    • 1
Most Helpful
Sep 12, 2018

I have read the original post several times, been debating whether this is a trolling expedition or if this is a legit request for insight, suggestions, etc... but here goes ...

"Is there a way to transcend this bullshit?"

Yes, there is. Stopping shitting on yourself for starters, stop thinking that the bullshit "out there" is all that there is and stop thinking that it's all aimed at you. What you allow or don't allow to effect you, especially when it's something that you see or feel as negative seems to be the main vein I keep coming back to as I read your OP.

"I noticed that men talk a lot of shit about women on these forums- which is sorta a window into the darkness. I can tell that they resent women a lot."

So based on what you read here or elsewhere, you're going to take that as the gospel and the only gospel? What about all the men that don't resent women, who actually see them as fellow humans, equals, partners or contributing members of relationships, businesses and communities?

"Also, for women who actually wanna be something more than a mom or someone's cumbox, there's not much recognition."

Sure, there is non-cumbox recognition. There are women making strides in countless sectors and industries every single day. More women are running for elected office, becoming CEOs or entrepreneurs and trailblazing in any number of ways in business and in the creative fields. But if you only want to feed yourself negative sound bites, there is plenty of that too.

In Alcoholics' Anonymous, there is something called the Serenity Prayer...

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

You don't have to believe in a high power for this to aid you - the key is basically learning to get out of your own way and remember that you can't control much of what happens to you BUT you can control how you react to it.

You could probably work also on shifting your mindset and not taking things as personal slights. I'm not suggesting that you're paranoid nor am I suggesting that things are simple for women in business, but perhaps you're over-thinking things and taking people's interactions with you [or their lackthereof] as something malicious or mean-spirited on their part. Yes, there are plenty mean-spirited and malicious types in this world... you are doing yourself no favors by letting them get to you.

Also decide if all you want is to simply complain and vent, which is fine and cool, but you're not going to get any true epiphanies here or anywhere else if you are wanting the reward [whatever you define that to be for you] but not the struggle, if you are looking solely for the end-result and not inclined to doing the work/the process for whatever/whoever it is you want in your life. On your WSO profile you list yourself as an intern, so you are certainly young enough to put in whatever work and is necessary, whether that's to find the right line of work that suits you best or the right guy.

"I feel the climate is telling me I don't deserve to have what men can have just because my body is different, and that's bullshit."

I concur 100% - looks, how you carry yourself and general appearance are only the surface. There are plenty of men and women who aren't stunningly gorgeous that are getting attention and action. However, personality and outlook go a loooooong way in regards to getting people to want to be around you for more than a few minutes.

I often listen to Armand DiMele's "The Positive Mind" - he passed away but his podcasts are still available online and his radio show still exists with different hosts. He was an amazingly upbeat person and an insightful psychotherapist who really stressed breaking out of negative habits and outlooks and processing past traumas/negativity. He himself had an interesting life, he worked on Wall St as a securities specialist before deciding to study psychology and was also a self-taught jazz drummer. I can't recommend his podcasts enough - especially his episodes on introversion/extroversion, anger issues, male/female sexuality, millennials, shyness/social anxiety and many more. http://www.thepositivemind.com/
"That said, it kinda upsets me to think that people around me probably either see me as invisible (I'm not that pretty), as an enemy (for being on the opposite side of the gender divide), or as an object."

Between this comment and your "I'm pretty introverted" comment... you may have answered something that you're not willing to ask.

People can't change how they feel about you or how they treat you unless YOU give them a reason to. Improve your outlook, try to put a more positive spin on what you do, say and think... I daresay the results could not very likely be any worse than what you already claim to feel or experience.

    • 8
Sep 12, 2018

Women are hot

What concert costs 45 cents? 50 Cent feat. Nickelback.

Sep 12, 2018

@InfoDominatrix couldn't have said it better.

OP I'm also going to give you some tough love. Sure it's a male dominated space and sure it'll be easier for a frat bro who knows all the stats of every quarterback to make it. But not every guy in finance is a #metoo case.

Plus, finance is one of those fields where if you can show them the money it doesn't matter what gender you are - heck the CIO of Soros Fund Management is a boss lady and ran multiple organizations even before Soros. If you're a rainmaker, who cares what you are. Yes, men will get promoted easier and faster because there's more of them in senior management, but we're talking about an uneven playing field here, not summit a mountain.

Don't shoot yourself in the foot before you even start running. Don't ever fall into the pit of blaming it on gender because trust me, I've fallen in that pit before and it does you no favors and is just plainly distracting. Keep your eye on the money. Focus on action.

So sack up and go make it rain sister. Bust some balls for me.