S&T is shit - IB is king
Few years ago I had to choose between S&T and Banking. I picked Banking: thanks god. S&T has no future, wtf is happening there? Every year many people in S&T are being fired, and banks don't hire as much as before. S&T was good before 2008, now it sucks. Trading algorithms are replacing traders a bit more every year (even if most traders won't admit it). Traders are going to disappear, if you want to make money in S&T you have to be the genius coding the algorithm: good luck.
Lmao. It seems like daily a new thread comes up of someone bashing S&T. S&T people don't even think about IB.
Are you that unhappy with your job? Can't imagine how working 100 hour weeks formatting logos would make you unhappy.
Dude - I feel a lot of frustration in your comment. In IB you align logos for 3 years. Then you're an associate and you do more. Then you become a VP and it is even more interesting. However, in S&T, you do exactly the same thing during your entire career (from day 1 to retirement, only the exposure/risks change a bit). It must be so boring, so boring.
Some of the people that use this site are truly strange indeed.
a bifurcation has developed within S&T....yes, there are the algos and the quants who build them....then you have the other people...
-sales is still a human relationship building business that won't be automated
-manual trading for large size trades that are too big for an algo to handle
These are the superstars in S&T, where the big money is made....but only a small % of people are capable of doing these roles well...hence, "superstar"
IB is good for the average person...you don't need to be a rockstar alpha to do well in IB.
You MUST be a rockstar alpha to do well in S&T
However, if you are a rockstar, the S&T is the better place to be...better pay...better hours...better quality of life
if you are mediocre, then yes, goto IB.
Thanks for this. Really depends on if you see yourself as the mode or the outlier
Absolutely agree. I'm a good example: a little shit who landed a FT offer at a Top BB (still don't know wtf happened)
How do you know if you will be a superstar though? I would imagine the skillset is so different that you would not want to lateral into S&T or start there unless you KNEW youd be great
Hamlet, Act I, Scene 3
This above all- to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day. Thou canst not then be false to any man.
What desks / niche markets have the best future in the next 5-10 years?
S&T is not just sales and trading, quite a few desks are IB-like and are not being automated away - thinking specifically of the likes of ABS and direct lending desks
former equity sales guy turned IB analyst. I feel like i got the last helicopter out of Vietnam. Anyone who says it isn't that bad hasn't seen the bloodbath unfolding since 2015. The pandemic and associated volatility saved a lot of desks this year from utter calamity, but that only sets up harder comps to lap next year. If you're thinking anywhere outside the very top BB's - GS / MS / JPM, stay very very far away.
How was the transition? Are you still at the same bank? And also was the product you were selling liquid cash or a complex one? Thanks for this!
How hard was the move basically
you started off in the wrong business....if you were in FICC you would have had a drastically different experience
I don't disagree with you there at all. I personally found equities more interesting and was much more excited about reading research about companies i liked. Had no idea the bottom was falling out of the business
I Agree - But why since 2015? More since 2008 imo
Yes since 2008 for sure, but the wheels really came off after 2015 from what I saw. Just my experience, but:
2015 was the last year before buyside clients began implementing Mifid II compliant policies for unbundling trading and research commission. The old world was that buyside hedge funds and long-onlys paid sellside brokers with their client's money - you're a PM at Wellington and business was booming and you didn't care how much you paid your buddy at Morgan Stanley because it wasn't your money, and by the way if you pay him what he wants, he'll take you to the Super Bowl and golfing at Pebble Beach. Enter Mifid II - Now suddenly the Wellington's of the world were having to tell their investor clients exactly how much of their money they were spending on sellside research - millions of dollars, all the while they were underperforming passive ETFs. It's a hard sell telling CALPERS you should manage their money and also they should give you millions of dollars to spend on sellside research - if you're so smart Mr. Wellington PM, why do you need to pay so much for a sellside guy's opinion? Can't you pick the best stocks on your own? It's a catch 22, and the smaller research shops have no leverage - what are you going to do, not let Wellington read your research? They still pay you $5mm per year, they're your 3rd biggest client - but they used to pay you $10mm per year. And now every one of your clients is doing the same thing.
Then on the trading side, cash commission spreads have come down significantly as electronic trading has made trading much cheaper and more efficient. In both cases, less money in the door for sellside brokers.
Bro you worked in equity sales, I would barely call that S&T lmao you guys just set up meetings for the buy side for your research analysts
You mean to say that working in Sales is barely Sales & Trading? My mistake bud
I mean I really wish I did S&T tbh. My friends in it love their job (they're in like FX, FI, and commodities) and make basically what I do +/-$10k. Plus they go home at like 5/6pm and they can actually relax and not have to constantly worry about being on call. I know the industry is shrinking a bit but if you're good at it, it is a good career imo
For me, the hours are the best thing about it.
Do I want to stay long term? No. Do I plan to stay long term? no. But the pay is really good for a POS like myself and I'm never in past 6:30pm so doesn't hurt to do it for a couple of years and then pivot to MBA or whatever else I decide to do.
I wanna move from m&a at a bb to s&t. IB sucks. Deal processes suck.
Am I a complete idiot for considering? What desks would be best?
Just want to get yucky with the boys and work hard play hard during trading hours (not till 2am like in IB).
I have a good number of friends and they would gladly switch with you. I think the biggest question is how valuable is optionality and work life balance
You get paid pretty well ( 110k An1 135k-170k An2, As0 base starts off 125k for my bb)
Hours are 6am to 6pm give or take +/- hour early or later depending on the product and usually no weekends
if you want to stay in markets that’s great .... room to grow inside the firm to MD and exits to hedge funds (maybe) , IR and start ups
For some of my friends they want the optionality to move over to PE or stay in banking but do it from a tier 2 city where their dollar goes a lot farther than NY, Chicago or London
If you don’t like those cities good luck finding a markets a seat somewhere else. Also, remember if headcount is slowly decreasing that means when your flame out as a sales person or blow up your book as a trader there are only so many seats open at another bank that houses that particular product. Just because you get fired from trading rates at one BB doesn’t mean you can automatically jump ship to another BB
Thanks for the response. What's the best desk for a former ma guy?
Strange, $130k is average for a BB A1 from what I've heard.
You got $110k as a first-year analyst?
"S&T people get fired everyday"
Ah, I had no idea that banking analysts never get laid off!
Oh wait, you guys hate your jobs so much that you leave before you stay long enough to even get laid off LMAO
Lol stop pitting the two against eachother bro. Says more about you than anything. Two different departments all together. Live and let be
The best MD's in Banking think like Traders. The best MD's in Trading think like bankers.
I've been applying to every S&T or ER role that pops up. I'm a non-target so tbh I'm just aiming for the sky but I'd love to do S&T. We'll see how this pans out.
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