The No-Vacation Nation
mod (Andy) note: "Blast from the past - Best of Eddie" - This one is originally from May 2011. If there's an old post from Eddie you'd like to see up again shoot me a message.
Did you know that the U.S. is the only industrialized nation in the world where paid vacation is not mandatory? I'll admit, I was kinda surprised by that. But it's true. And it may be costing us productivity, at least according to Take Back Your Time - a U.S. and Canadian initiative to "challenge the epidemic of overwork".
I remember all the hype about the Internet in the late '90s. We would all be telecommuting from home and working in our underwear because the Internet would free us from the office. Productivity tools like Palm Pilots (lol) and eventually BlackBerries would free us up to roam the globe, lay on the beach, and still get our work done.
In fact the exact opposite became reality.
Where we used to be able to go home at the end of the day and pretty much forget about work until the next morning, now we're on-call 24 hours a day. Work has followed us home, and there is no escaping emails, cell phone calls, and texts from bosses and co-workers. And thanks to high-speed connectivity, employers can now expect us to work from home after we've called it a day.
The U.S. is obviously the worst offender when it comes to overworking employees, but several other countries aren't that far behind. The difference is, employers in those countries are required to provide paid time off for their employees - and lots of it, in some cases.
For example, no one would accuse German workers of a lack of productivity. They're recognized as the hardest working people in Europe. But it might surprise you to find out that German workers must be given a minimum of four weeks paid vacation per year. And they have to take it.
The French give their workers six weeks off with pay each year, in addition to a 35-hour work week. Sweden offers workers five weeks paid vacation, and beat the U.S. handily in the World Economic Forums 2010-2011 Rankings. We work longer hours (by far), take fewer and shorter vacations (by far), and we're still not beating them:
However, Americans work more hours per year than workers in most other developed economies. This is why, measured as value added per hour worked, Norway has the highest labour productivity level (US$ 37.99), followed by the United States (US$ 35.63) and France (US$ 35.08).
This lack of vacation takes a toll, too. Men who don't regularly vacation are 30% more likely to experience heart disease. Women are 50% more likely.
Now I ask you: if you had a choice between your current working situation (80+ hour weeks, no vacation, increased risk of heart disease) to earn a pro-rated $35.63 an hour versus $35.08 an hour under the French system where you're given six weeks paid vacation per year, which would you choose and why? And do you think paid vacation should be mandated by law in the U.S.?
Comments
You = socialist. If it were
You = socialist.
If it were efficient to give paid vacation, more employers would offer paid vacation so they can bring in the same quality people with lower overall compensation. But Americans prefer working hard and earning more money.
Also, Germans are lazy. The French are jokes. Sure it may be great for the employees, but forcing employers to lose out on productivity like that kills incentive for entrepreneurship and effective management/leadership.
Correlation causation etc
Correlation causation etc
Schwarzmanegger wrote: You =
You = socialist.
If it were efficient to give paid vacation, more employers would offer paid vacation so they can bring in the same quality people with lower overall compensation. But Americans prefer working hard and earning more money.
Also, Germans are lazy. The French are jokes. Sure it may be great for the employees, but forcing employers to lose out on productivity like that kills incentive for entrepreneurship and effective management/leadership.
Tell me if you feel the same way a couple years after you graduate high school.
I'm very much a free markets
I'm very much a free markets guy, but I agree with you, Edmundo.
Imagine employees had a choice between some vacation and no vacation. Most people would take no vacation at all, because doing otherwise would jeopardize their career.
Why do we do so? Competition. We get ourselves into unfavorable Nash equilibria with our coworkers because we all covet the same limited spots. The government helps us find a Pareto-efficient solution by *forcing* us to take time off.
It's a good thing - broadly.
What's the tradeoff, here? On the one hand, paid holidays increase the general well-being of the population. On the other hand, it restricts the freedom of those among us who want to work more, to make more. Eddie, I'm sure you've heard of "Travailler plus pour gagner plus".
Is there a real optimum? I doubt it. I just know I'm happy to have 20 days off (in London). Apologies to you guys if you'd like to work more :-)
@Schwarzmanegger : Could you
@Schwarzmanegger : Could you explain how you link a comparison between labor productivity and vacation time with socialism ?
Btw, you can work a shitload of hours, but if you are not productive, its completely useless. Also, one needs vacations to relax, otherwise there is a high risk of burning out in the long-run.
Why the heck would you want to work, earn money and not be able to spend it ? If you dont take any vacations and forbid yourself enjoy your life, then working your ass off is useless.
Where is blackfinancier to
Where is blackfinancier to call out a troll when you need him??
Anyone that shouts socialist as a response on WSO is obviously a troll, and the Germans are lazy comment had me laphing owt lowd
Not to mention the vacation benefit is for the majority of the country that does not pull home +100k and has no interest in entrepreneurship etc...
You = socialist.
If it were efficient to give paid vacation, more employers would offer paid vacation so they can bring in the same quality people with lower overall compensation. But Americans prefer working hard and earning more money.
Also, Germans are lazy. The French are jokes. Sure it may be great for the employees, but forcing employers to lose out on productivity like that kills incentive for entrepreneurship and effective management/leadership.
If the glove don't fit, you must acquit!
Western Europeans NEED more
Western Europeans NEED more vacation. The birth rates are below replacement levels. Their populations are aging. America is a young society with fresh legs. We work because we can.
More vacation time is a form of compensation. European companies generally offer lower wages.
When you mandate compensation levels you have set an artificial floor on the cost of labor. Add in high taxes, labor unions, insane regulations on the hiring/firing of employees and Europe arguably has the highest labor costs on the planet. This is why Europe traditionally has higher unemployment than America.
Compensation requirements are biased towards those who HAVE A JOB. But they do nothing for those who are unemployed.
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“The American father is never seen in London. He passes his life entirely in Wall Street and communicates with his family once a month by means of a telegram in cipher.” - Oscar Wilde
Ok, but since vacations allow
Ok, but since vacations allow workers to be more productive, most employers already offer paid time off. Employees also often demand it. There is a free-market solution to this, Eddie. We don't need to get the government involved in mandating minimum vacation times.
Work hard, play hard.
I don' t think this is really
I don' t think this is really a free markets issue. Someone for that theory would say well if workers work more and they are willing then it doesn't make sense for the company to waste money on paying them more. It would be uneconomical. However, economics breaks down when it comes to employment satisfaction. If i had to work 100 hours I would, but everyone knows that my productivity would not stay the same (tired, bored, unfocused, stressed). Just look at SAS Institute, best employer for the longest time and one of the most successful firms. They don't believe in socialism, but they treat their employees great.
American culture has so many things mixed up with free market and working hard for success motos that things like employee accommodations have been forgotten. Mind you these would actually be beneficial for both employees and employers. I'm not sure the behavior is changeable in a short period of time, but some readjust must be made eventually. Anyone knows that success requires hard work, determination and so on, but smart work should not be ignored.
Do what you want not what you can!
Haven't taken more than 5
Haven't taken more than 5 consecutive days off in 4 years; never taken more than 2 weeks off in any given year. Have lost more vacation than I've taken.
My opinion, if you can manage your job well enough to take time away without losing productivity then by all means have at it. However I think you'll find those who regularly use all of their days are likely to be less driven, less productive, and salaried with no work:performance compensation.
My brother lives in Melbourne, AUS, and speaks regularly about their work/life balance... He also complains about his hourly staffs 38.5 hour full time work week, and the ridiculous number of holidays including the month they take off for Xmas.
America didn't become the largest economy in the world by adopting pansy vacation and work schedules. It worked and saved for retirement.
Vacation has become the new
Vacation has become the new "face-time" at a lot of places. Have 3-5 weeks of PTO? Take only one to show everyone how much you mean business! I think that is the mentality that a lot of people have, so government mandated vacations make some sense to me. To me its not different then the ass hole that’s stays until everyone has left the office, then leaves 5 minutes later to project the appearance that he's always at work. I'd like to say all bosses and compensation meetings notice weasel moves like this, but the fact of the the matter is they do not. Take two people that are otherwise equal in performance and if they are straddling a tier in rating, the more hours guy is going to win out. I have been in these meetings and watched others do this exact calculus. Shit, I'll even engage in this kind of critiquing as well.
The vast majority of my 9-5 work day is filled with sitting on calls or in meetings, 50% of which are not productive. Then I have to do real work for another 4 hours or so. If we had mandatory working hours or mandatory vacations, I think it would force people to be more efficient with their time. The point Eddie is trying to make is that these Western European countries are for the most part equally, if not more productive, in absolute terms. So clearly they are doing a much better job on an hourly basis than we are. At this point I honestly believe the difference between a 40-hour week and a 80-hour week is comprised of waiting around, unnecessary meetings and realizing you are on version 16 of a document that was perfectly good at version 4. If you don't agree with this and actually WORK FULL TIME in a real job, I'd actually be interested to know how you fill those 80-hours with value-added productivity.
On a side note, I feel like it wasn't always the case where I was having a conversation with only about 8 dudes on this forum actually working for a living. Seems like its nothing but trolls, posers and the obnoxious college juniors have been replaced with college freshmen and high school kids.
Much of this conversation
Much of this conversation seems to presume a static world.
Your job isn't guaranteed. Your company will not always be solvent. Your country's competitive position will change.
Is Europe or America in a better position for the next 50 years?
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“The American father is never seen in London. He passes his life entirely in Wall Street and communicates with his family once a month by means of a telegram in cipher.” - Oscar Wilde
I think a lot of people are
I think a lot of people are looking at this from the wrong perspective - that of thinking about this in terms of white collar high performing jobs where you are rewarded handsomely for your hard work and talent. Basically every professional job gets two weeks vacation at least and that figure typically grows with time. All my friends in banking, pe, corp dev, law, etc. take vacations. Maybe not 3 week trips around south america but vacation is taking.
The real losers here are the ones that are doing unskilled labor jobs making minimum wageish rates and barely able to support their families. They are working 12 hour days 6 days a week and there is literally no light at the end of the tunnel. These are the type of people that regulations are meant to protect.
I think people would gladly earn 11/12 of their annual wage to be given a month vacation. The problem is it's not an option. At the unskilled labor level companies would not be losing productivity by their employees taking vacation it would just be a matter of having the proper human resource management to execute the scheduling. As by definition unskilled labor is easily replaceable.
ke18sb wrote: I think a lot
I think a lot of people are looking at this from the wrong perspective - that of thinking about this in terms of white collar high performing jobs where you are rewarded handsomely for your hard work and talent. Basically every professional job gets two weeks vacation at least and that figure typically grows with time. All my friends in banking, pe, corp dev, law, etc. take vacations. Maybe not 3 week trips around south america but vacation is taking.
The real losers here are the ones that are doing unskilled labor jobs making minimum wageish rates and barely able to support their families. They are working 12 hour days 6 days a week and there is literally no light at the end of the tunnel. These are the type of people that regulations are meant to protect.
I think people would gladly earn 11/12 of their annual wage to be given a month vacation. The problem is it's not an option. At the unskilled labor level companies would not be losing productivity by their employees taking vacation it would just be a matter of having the proper human resource management to execute the scheduling. As by definition unskilled labor is easily replaceable.
Those low skilled workers aren't salaried. They are hourly employees. They don't take vacation because they don't get paid if they don't work.
Companies that heavily rely on unskilled labor often have the thinnest margins. If you suddenly mandate paid vacation for hourly employees, you will see increased unemployment among low skilled workers as you have just incentivized the employer to automate/outsource.
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“The American father is never seen in London. He passes his life entirely in Wall Street and communicates with his family once a month by means of a telegram in cipher.” - Oscar Wilde
I agree with veritas, there
I agree with veritas, there are always tradeoffs. If there is more paid vacation time that's fine, but then there also has to be a cut in salary, benefits, etc. somewhere else.
A lot of us aren't pointing out the obvious: that if the government gets involved in legislating paid vacation time, ALL workers from 20-55, will be forced to take that time off. These demographics have different priorities as far as work/life balance; younger employees are more willing to work longer hours anyway, while older people are getting ready to slow down. It's foolish to think one size can fit all in this case.
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What I'm hearing some people
I think the point that Eddie
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I have mixed feelings about
Schwarzmanegger wrote: You =
The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee
WSO is not your personal search function.
As a quick follow-on, I want
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good discussion, folks. lots
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“The American father is never seen in London. He passes his life entirely in Wall Street and communicates with his family once a month by means of a telegram in cipher.” - Oscar Wilde
Interesting.
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Wait....so are there any
"One should recognize reality even when one doesn't like it, indeed, especially when one doesn't like it." - Charlie Munger
cplpayne wrote: Wait....so
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“The American father is never seen in London. He passes his life entirely in Wall Street and communicates with his family once a month by means of a telegram in cipher.” - Oscar Wilde
@Veritas: I agree with your
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You actually even see it at
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We might note that recent
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“The American father is never seen in London. He passes his life entirely in Wall Street and communicates with his family once a month by means of a telegram in cipher.” - Oscar Wilde
I guess I'm arguing that we'd
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@Veritas Having been in both
@TheKing I remember when the
I'm a little surprised
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Very interesting topic. I
ragnar danneskjöld
A couple of posters mentioned
West Coast rainmaker wrote: A
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“The American father is never seen in London. He passes his life entirely in Wall Street and communicates with his family once a month by means of a telegram in cipher.” - Oscar Wilde
Yeah, because the govt.
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Lol @ thinking you need work
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Quote: I am not sure the
I completely forgot about
You beat me to it,
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“The American father is never seen in London. He passes his life entirely in Wall Street and communicates with his family once a month by means of a telegram in cipher.” - Oscar Wilde
I don't think any new rules
YOU JUST GOT TROLLED
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Edmundo Braverman
Schwarzmanegger
YOU JUST GOT TROLLED
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Edmundo Braverman
UFOinsider
Don't feed the troll guys.
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YOU JUST GOT TROLLED
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Without referencing other
Work hard, play hard.
I don't know about you guys,
I get 4 weeks paid vacation.