Any front office African Americans in IB?

This is a direct question and please don't respond if you have no valid input. I've read a lot of posts regarding the average talents required to be in IB (Is IB a waste of talent etc.) and I can't figure out why, if average talent is all that's required, there's not more diversity (particularly when it comes to African Americans) in front office IB - analysts, associates, directors? I'm asking specifically about A-As so please also don't respond about other minorities. And let's keep it clean folks. Thx.

 

No racist troll. A-A woman with top MBA trying to get into IB. Was quite put off by the IB Waste of Talent re: over and underachievers/intelligence or lack thereof and decided to post. If the bar is set so low and if anyone of any level of intelligence can get a job in IB then why don't you see more A-A. The entitlement attitude of non-minorities in IB is insulting.

 
Controversial

I've been reading up on the subject recently, so thought I'd chime in:

As of late, representation of African-Americans (and Hispanics) in IB remains at about 1-2%. These percentages are probably a reflection of the pool of talented, qualified blacks in higher education, which is fairly miniscule. Because there isn't much talent that recruiters at banks can pull from they struggle to improve minority numbers. Just think about it; the odds of finding talented black youth, at prestigious, selective target schools, that choose and excel at Econ/Finance/Math/etc. and are interested and familiar with the investment banking recruiting process are slim to none. And, if you consider the fact that Wall Street has always been an "Old Boy's Club" that has for a while now been lead and run by wealthy, white males, it would seem that perhaps there are "barriers to entry", may them be social, economic, or political. At the very least if there are blacks in Wall Street there usually 1st or 2nd generation Africans and/or typically don't reach the higher rungs of the high finance ladder because they choose to venture other options.

Also, the nature of IB is also to blame, it isn't exactly as desirable as some would believe. Sure the exit opps and salary are fabulous, but not many blacks find the trade off of time and leisure that appealing.

One last note: I think you're confused about the topic of "IB being a waste of talent" and I'm assuming you're referring to the thread a few days back. It's not that "average talent is all that's required" or that blacks can't seem to match up with what is required (cause we certainly can), it's that those who excel in IB probably could put there skills to better use; like idk curing cancer or something, instead of slaving away at their desk till odd hours every day/night. But as usual, money is the number #1 motivator, and people will flock to it.

Long Story Short: There isn't much African American talent to go around.

Hope this Help

 
nomesonwallstreet:

I've read a lot of posts regarding the average talents required to be in IB (Is IB a waste of talent etc.) and I can't figure out why, if average talent is all that's required, there's not more diversity (particularly when it comes to African Americans) in front office IB - analysts, associates, directors?

Holy run-on sentence.
"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."
 
nomesonwallstreet:

Right so if it doesn't apply to you and you have something to share then do so.

What. If it doesn't apply to me, I should share something? Well that's a new one.

nomesonwallstreet:

This is a social media board and not a dissertation about race on Wall Street.

Great observation. Do you ever think my comment could be applied from both view points, and not just as an attack on your post? Or were you too excited to throw your first MS at a comment you hadn't fully understood?

nomesonwallstreet:

What's been your experience re: A-A in front office positions in IB or have you just not had any?

I don't work in IB, I work in AM. My firm hires people of all races, but we hire on talent - not skin color.

 

OP is a douche, and I have no idea where BlackCole is getting her statistics.

Affirmative action allows the majority of the elite schools to have a calculated level of diversity (although not in the sense of equal amount of talent) of each race, and programs like SEO will place a couple kids into each of the bulges every year (1-2% implies 1-2 people per incoming BB class). Just a bunch of made up shit.

 

What's with the name calling? Why I gotta be a douche. Read the "Investment Banking = Waste of Time" post. The OP says that he or she (paraphrasing here) is not from top school, earns a great living etc. And then goes on to question whether IB, the industry that I'm trying to break into, is a waste of time for those who choose to be there. Why can't I post a question and have it viewed in the same genuine lens as the "Waste of Time" poster. Is my opinion not valid here? You guys answered my question. Thanks for the dialogue.

 

sigh I swear every thread inquiring about diversity "hires" and programs ends up this way: with a lot of bitter monkeys (on both sides), a question that has yet to be resolved, and a whole lot of monkey shit.

Sav:

OP is a douche, and I have no idea where BlackCole is getting her statistics.

Affirmative action allows the majority of the elite schools to have a calculated level of diversity (although not in the sense of equal amount of talent) of each race, and programs like SEO will place a couple kids into each of the bulges every year (1-2% implies 1-2 people per incoming BB class). Just a bunch of made up shit.

Just to substantiate my claim and shed some light on AAs in Wall Street here are a few articles for your (and anyone's) viewing pleasure--these statistical figures have also been surfacing WSO for a while now and claim that AAs make up about 1-2% (give or take) of BB recruiting classes:

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/wall-street-elusive-dream-black-america… ("Wall Street an elusive dream for black Americans")

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100993918 ("Blacks still find Wall Street foreign territory")

http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2013/09/a_guide_to_a_successful… ("A Guide to a Successful Career on Wall Street for African Americans")

http://www.blackenterprise.com/small-business/african-americans-on-wall… ("African Americans On Wall Street: The Next Generation")

Hope this Helps

 
BlakeCole:

*sigh* I swear every thread inquiring about diversity "hires" and programs ends up this way: with a lot of bitter monkeys (on both sides), a question that has yet to be resolved, and a whole lot of monkey shit.

Sav:

OP is a douche, and I have no idea where BlackCole is getting her statistics.

Affirmative action allows the majority of the elite schools to have a calculated level of diversity (although not in the sense of equal amount of talent) of each race, and programs like SEO will place a couple kids into each of the bulges every year (1-2% implies 1-2 people per incoming BB class). Just a bunch of made up shit.

Just to substantiate my claim and shed some light on AAs in Wall Street here are a few articles for your (and anyone's) viewing pleasure--these statistical figures have also been surfacing WSO for a while now and claim that AAs make up about 1-2% (give or take) of BB recruiting classes:

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/wall-street-elusive-dream-black-americans-8C11022224
("Wall Street an elusive dream for black Americans")

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100993918
("Blacks still find Wall Street foreign territory")

http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2013/09/a_guide_to_a_successful_career_on_wall_street_for_african_americans.html
("A Guide to a Successful Career on Wall Street for African Americans")

http://www.blackenterprise.com/small-business/african-americans-on-wall-street-blacks/
("African Americans On Wall Street: The Next Generation")

Hope this Helps

These all cite the same 2.8% statistic, which of all things was used as evidence in a law suit accusing B of A of racial discrimination. Not to mention it is only representative of a small portion of front office finance professionals (retail brokers/FAs, a subset that is particularly homogeneous even by finance standards).

Strictly anecdotal, but I would guess the % of what WSO considers FO positions that are held by African Americans is closer to 5%, if not more. Probably less than the population as a whole, but not 1 or 2 people for every 100.

"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."
 
BlakeCole:

*sigh* I swear every thread inquiring about diversity "hires" and programs ends up this way: with a lot of bitter monkeys (on both sides), a question that has yet to be resolved, and a whole lot of monkey shit.

Sav:

OP is a douche, and I have no idea where BlackCole is getting her statistics.

Affirmative action allows the majority of the elite schools to have a calculated level of diversity (although not in the sense of equal amount of talent) of each race, and programs like SEO will place a couple kids into each of the bulges every year (1-2% implies 1-2 people per incoming BB class). Just a bunch of made up shit.

Just to substantiate my claim and shed some light on AAs in Wall Street here are a few articles for your (and anyone's) viewing pleasure--these statistical figures have also been surfacing WSO for a while now and claim that AAs make up about 1-2% (give or take) of BB recruiting classes:

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/wall-street-elusive-dream-black-americans-8C11022224
("Wall Street an elusive dream for black Americans")

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100993918
("Blacks still find Wall Street foreign territory")

http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2013/09/a_guide_to_a_successful_career_on_wall_street_for_african_americans.html
("A Guide to a Successful Career on Wall Street for African Americans")

http://www.blackenterprise.com/small-business/african-americans-on-wall-street-blacks/
("African Americans On Wall Street: The Next Generation")

Hope this Helps

Oh God, I'm beginning to see why your grades are bad - poor data interpretation and reading comprehension. Just remember:
  1. I have no idea why you bothered linking 4 sources. 4 sources saying the same thing with the same root source does not add any additional validity to your argument.

  2. Let me get this straight - a pre-selected sample of non-IBD positions at one firm somehow has fair implication to the entire industry. By that logic, we should just look at Rothschild, who's male to female ratio was like 13-1 on some years, when the actual proportion is 50/50. Therefore, there is severe gender bias as well? True or not, you can't draw conclusions from bad data. The first thing you learn in statistics is this 1. You need a random sample. 2. Your sample needs to be reflective of the population. These articles have indicated neither!

  3. These are for senior, not analyst positions. The white male bias is much higher against all other demographics in this range.

  4. Also remember, 2.8% cited is almost 100% larger than the average of your range of 1-2%.

You have shitty, shitty statistics. Why the fuck should I listen to you when I can lift my head and look around the office to see how wrong you are?

Also what the fuck, did you really try to suggest that Asians are benefiting from diversity recruiting? Other way around - Asians aren't even on the list of "URMs" at all. Neither should they be...

 

To answer your question directly, yes, there are African Americans in front office roles. You have to look at the number of African Americans in the top 25 or so schools. How many are accounting, finance, and econ majors? I know other majors can be included, but this seems to be the norm. At my school, most African Americans choose marketing or operations type roles as their career path, so they aren't pursuing front office jobs.

I think one of the issues can be related to test scores and avg GPAs. There are several studies showing that on average, African Americans receive much lower scores than Caucasians and Hispanics. So, you claim African Americans should be able to get average jobs easier, despite being below average as a whole. I am not trying to generalize the whole race, and there are certainly programs out their to try to help minorities change those statistics and become more successful.

 
nomesonwallstreet:
What's with the name calling? Why I gotta be a douche.
Let me indulge this so you don't piss off your boss and future colleagues.
nomesonwallstreet:
This is a direct question and please don't respond if you have no valid input.
So the first thing you do is open up by unnecessarily asserting yourself. Responding to the question is implied - it's like if I asked you to help me with a project, and I followed by saying "Please help, but only if you're not a fucking idiot".
nomesonwallstreet:
I've read a lot of posts regarding the average talents required to be in IB (Is IB a waste of talent etc.) and I can't figure out why, if average talent is all that's required
Now I get it, you don't want to derail this thread but you make an awful lot of assumptions. Do you really think investment bankers are of "average" talent? Sure, intellectual ability is lower than the list when compared to other industries, but the average kid won't be able to do the job. And unlike you, I actually think the root cause of the disparity of African Americans is less so due to "talent" issues but more so due to upbringing and work ethic, the latter of which is absolutely essential in IBD. You realize that the sticky implication of your own post is that African Americans are dumber (or at least less talented) than their counterparts from other races, thus resulting in lower representation in other elite industries? In your world, banking must be like the fast food industry, no experience or talent needed right?
nomesonwallstreet:
And let's keep it clean folks.
Maybe you should watch Wolf of Wall Street and you'll see why telling this to a bunch of bankers makes you look like such a fucking tool.
 

Thanks Sav . . . I assume that's short for Savior. I wasn't making any assumptions. As I stated before, I was just echoing the sentiments that many of your compadres have been posting on the boards. What's a tool anyway? Now I'm a douche fucking tool. Is IB a meritocracy? Why I gotta watch Wolf on Wall Street . . . I saw the Smartest Guys in the Fucking Room (or whatever the title) and I watched Barbarians at the Gate - or did I read it?

 

If you are competent and motivated you can work wherever regardless of race. So much bitching in this thread. Tons of minority owned investment firms that would hire every qualified minority who applied.

We should eliminate race based affirmative action and help the real disadvantaged class, the poor.

 

And what is your IB/firm doing to help the really disadvantaged? Additionally what are your experiences with A-As in the front office at your firm? I'm slow but I'm trying to draw a parallel between my original post and your post. Finally, I don't understand all the name calling.

 

Interesting to think about. Thinking back to past years, I knew one guy that summered 3 years through diversity programs and didn't end up working in IB full time (or on wall street). There is 1 in my analyst class, I think. Maybe 2. Of all my friends in banking, I know a good amount of asians, a few indians, a few girls, one hispanic guy, and no african americans.

Definitely white boys club. Most of the guys at the top banks are legacies at Ivys, families know one another, and have generations of friends and family working in finance. But, who knows. I'm from the south and I'm sure it's 10x worse here than in NY. The few "diverse" friends I have in banking are all working in new york.

In Texas, even all the girls in banking (the 5 or 6 that exist) are typical southern sorority girls - so no surprise that there are no african americans.

 

Thanks HEBanker. On topic and insightful. Did the guy that summered 3 years through the diversity programs opt out or did he just not get any offers. Interned in REPE and worked FT in investment management RE. Mortgage origination and property acquisition experience but not a lot of operating company analysis. Would like to join a RE coverage group in a MM. The idea of my African American self walking through the door as if I'm not African American is foreign to me - it just is.

 

He didn't get a FT offer, but it was UBS and this was probably at the brunt of their downfall.

If you are at a top MBA, like you said earlier, you are obviously going to get interviews (assuming your gpa is high enough). I don't think people are quite as racist as you seem to think they are, and you probably have as good of a chance as anyone else who isn't ultra privileged and doesn't have connections.

It'll be up to you to blow them away - and I would start with some self confidence. Honestly, if you are concerned enough about your background to post this question, the problem likely stems deeper. You're not going to be able to just "walk through the door" so to speak, but I don't think you are nearly as disadvantaged as you think you are.

I was never the "ideal banker" either, but things tend to work out for you if you are willing to put in the time and effort, and if you believe in yourself. After all, if you don't - why should anyone else?

 

Tons. Besides the black student who go to targets, look up students from HBCU's (Morehouse, Florida A&M etc.) on Linkedin - there's quite a few of them in BBs. I know several of them, and they are all top talent - 3.7/4.0 honors and up.

Furthermore, there are many other non-target URMs who get into through programs such as SEO (although, imho, I don't approve of SEO. To my knowledge, the 11 SEO students I personally know are relatively weak quality candidates -- GPA, no extra curriculars etc).

I'm an AA myself and will be starting FT next fall. I go to a non-target and I didn't go through SEO or any other URM program; got it through plain old networking.

 

This is the quote from IB=Waste of Talent thread that I originally referred to in my post (hope I'm not violating another monkey code):

"Now guys, I graduated from a target-but-not-top university and have an econ undergrad degree (no honors or anything fancy like that). So honestly, I am rather satisfied with the work I do. I mean, given my very limited actual skills and lack of family connections, working at a BB and making 100k right out of school is pretty sweet."

To me there's a difference between the top talent that you're referring to and this person and my position is that there are more high calibre AA candidates out there that would love to be in "Waste of Talent's" shoes.

Congrats on your offer and best wishes for your future success; however, theres a disconnect between tons and 2.8% representation on Wall Street as a whole. More interested in IB in particularly and not the aggregated Wall Street.

BTW - may I ask what type of FT offer you received or is that showing a lack of monkey etiquette?

 
nomesonwallstreet:

This is the quote from IB=Waste of Talent thread that I originally referred to in my post (hope I'm not violating another monkey code):

"Now guys, I graduated from a target-but-not-top university and have an econ undergrad degree (no honors or anything fancy like that). So honestly, I am rather satisfied with the work I do. I mean, given my very limited actual skills and lack of family connections, working at a BB and making 100k right out of school is pretty sweet."

To me there's a difference between the top talent that you're referring to and this person and my position is that there are more high calibre AA candidates out there that would love to be in "Waste of Talent's" shoes.

Congrats on your offer and best wishes for your future success; however, theres a disconnect between tons and 2.8% representation on Wall Street as a whole. More interested in IB in particularly and not the aggregated Wall Street.

BTW - may I ask what type of FT offer you received or is that showing a lack of monkey etiquette?

LOL, no such thing as 'monkey etiquette,' friend. I didn't mean to start an argument with you; just answering your original question.

You're right there is a disconnect between 'Tons' and ~"2.8%," but that it is considerably a TON of people if you individually count the number of them (its literally over 200+ blacks. I've personally talked to 43 of them).

To answer your question, my offer is for a Front Office role in IBD (corporate finance); I'm not sure what group yet, but I'm aiming for TMT. As for all the other blacks I know (not just AAs), when I mentioned WallStreet, I meant they have Front Office roles i.e. IBD or S&T where they range from Analysts to MD's.

 

Clearly, the OP is bitching and labeling banks as racist institutions which discriminate. There are few blacks in banking because few blacks go to universities and even fewer of those blacks have an interest in IB. Banks can't hire what's not there. If you want to pull the race card go ahead, but overcoming perceived adversity is going to be more powerful than whining about how unfair things are (when they're not?).

 

I don't think it's outlandish to assume that some aspects of the banks are at least inclined to racism (whether it be intentional or not) when it in fact does exist. It isn't perceived, it's there. I'm not even sure how OP could benefit from demonizing banks when she's trying to enter them in the first place.

 
BlakeCole:

I don't think it's outlandish to assume that some aspects of the banks are at least inclined to racism (whether it be intentional or not) when it in fact does exist. It isn't perceived, it's there. I'm not even sure how OP could benefit from demonizing banks when she's trying to enter them in the first place.

Some aspects of everything have some discrimination. I doubt those responsible of actually hiring someone would reject an applicant because of his or her race. Seems to me like affirmative action would give an advantage to a black female. As far as work culture goes, there is always discrimination, not necessarily against race. Taller people make more money. More attractive people are seen as more trustworthy. There are traits we cannot control and we will be judged on those traits - it's just part of life. And yeah, I'm not sure how OP could benefit either, which leads me to question the point of this post, other than to assert her opinion.
 

I made no such indictment on IBs. I made a comment/observation regarding a thread on this site and tried to rationalize my issues with another board's OP. If I'm labeling anything I'm labeling some folks on this site as the whiners for not recognizing their privilege in being able to work in IB. The dialogue eventually evolved to something helpful. You pulled the race card.

 

Okay, lol. Your posts had a clear insinuation that you felt like you were walking into banks and interviews with a disadvantage. You then mentioned and asked why there were so few AA's in banking. You're right; you never explicitly stated you thought banks were racist, but it was clear that you felt that way. If you've seen the Wolf on Wall Street, this is just like how Jordan tried to bribe the fed officer. There were no explicit statements, but you conveyed your thought, unintentionally or intentionally.

 

Doesn't sound like you read the original post to get to the evolution of the current dialogue but no matter. Nope not walking in at a disadvantage because, like I stated, I've got Top 5 MBA. Didn't have a lot of exposure to IB pre-MBA. Rolling up all of the overgeneralizations/stereotypes about AA deficiencies and comparing those to WSO posters' comments on how "average" and not smart their colleagues are that are in IB (and those posts are all over the place on WSO). Yeah it's a sticky statement as one person stated earlier but I was trying to highlight, once again, that there are plenty of folks that would like to be in IB that aren't - that's it.

 

Jesus Christ! If this thread is at all a reflection of life/people on Wall Street, I can't blame some minorities for being hesitant to break in. The level of butt hurt non-minorities is through the roof...why are you that bothered by diversity recruiting if African Americans only make up 1-2% of incoming classes? Seems like a total waste of time. I'm sure you're not as bothered by those who get in because of frat bros, parents w/ money, friends w/ deep ties to banks, or because they're women, those who network with higher ups like VPs and MDs, those who were best friends w/ those who had distant connection, etc. Are you gonna assume these groups are "qualified" but make sweeping generalizations on minorities based on evidence that is anecdotal at best? At the end of the day talent will rise to the top, and the rest will be left behind. No need whining about it.

OP, if it's any consolation, I don't know many African Americans in WS, but I do know a guy (African, though) who got a FT offer at a BB (think CS/BarCap) in my school (non-target)

all the best

 
AfricanGal:

Jesus Christ! If this thread is at all a reflection of life/people on Wall Street, I can't blame some minorities for being hesitant to break in. The level of butt hurt non-minorities is through the roof...why are you that bothered by diversity recruiting if African Americans only make up 1-2% of incoming classes? Seems like a total waste of time. I'm sure you're not as bothered by those who get in because of frat bros, parents w/ money, friends w/ deep ties to banks, or because they're women, those who network with higher ups like VPs and MDs, those who were best friends w/ those who had distant connection, etc. Are you gonna assume these groups are "qualified" but make sweeping generalizations on minorities based on evidence that is anecdotal at best? At the end of the day talent will rise to the top, and the rest will be left behind. No need whining about it.

OP, if it's any consolation, I don't know many African Americans in WS, but I do know a guy (African, though) who got a FT offer at a BB (think CS/BarCap) in my school (non-target)

all the best

I have no idea where you got the idea that any of us are bothered by diversity recruiting. I honestly promote diversity recruiting because it is needed to free many of the blacks from poverty and make a more successful society. I do not recall anybody making generalizations about AA's like you said. I think people are bothered by diversity recruitment when they should've gotten the job someone else got, but weren't able to because they weren't a URM. Also, about frat-boys and people who get in due to connections - these people are better educated individuals who would get jobs anyways, and in the case that they actually are under-qualified, their coworkers will probably look down on them as less intelligent/reliable. The people here who are butt-hurt are the people reading nomeonwallstreet's idiotic comments.
 
chiclanda:
AfricanGal:

Jesus Christ! If this thread is at all a reflection of life/people on Wall Street, I can't blame some minorities for being hesitant to break in. The level of butt hurt non-minorities is through the roof...why are you that bothered by diversity recruiting if African Americans only make up 1-2% of incoming classes? Seems like a total waste of time. I'm sure you're not as bothered by those who get in because of frat bros, parents w/ money, friends w/ deep ties to banks, or because they're women, those who network with higher ups like VPs and MDs, those who were best friends w/ those who had distant connection, etc. Are you gonna assume these groups are "qualified" but make sweeping generalizations on minorities based on evidence that is anecdotal at best? At the end of the day talent will rise to the top, and the rest will be left behind. No need whining about it.

OP, if it's any consolation, I don't know many African Americans in WS, but I do know a guy (African, though) who got a FT offer at a BB (think CS/BarCap) in my school (non-target)

all the best

I have no idea where you got the idea that any of us are bothered by diversity recruiting. I honestly promote diversity recruiting because it is needed to free many of the blacks from poverty and make a more successful society. I do not recall anybody making generalizations about AA's like you said. I think people are bothered by diversity recruitment when they should've gotten the job someone else got, but weren't able to because they weren't a URM. Also, about frat-boys and people who get in due to connections - these people are better educated individuals who would get jobs anyways, and in the case that they actually are under-qualified, their coworkers will probably look down on them as less intelligent/reliable. The people here who are butt-hurt are the people reading nomeonwallstreet's idiotic comments.

Diversity recruiting is needed to free blacks from poverty? What?

People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for freedom of thought which they seldom use.
 

I've not seen a single monkey make the argument that perhaps an AA who received a FT/SA offer was at least qualified for the position. It appears that people here are making generalization on AAs who get offers by assuming they aren't qualified because AAs on average have lower test scores.

I disagree with frat-boys and others being connected always being qualified. How could you possibly tell? At the end of the day if you are under-qualified but have legit connections at banks you will get in.

 

There are so many posts deserving of MS in here, I'm overwhelmed with excitement! I now know how Santa feels when he leaves coal for children.

Frank Sinatra - "Alcohol may be man's worst enemy, but the bible says love your enemy."
 

As an AA who broke into IB at SA and FT level from a non-target, focus on presenting yourself in the best light for every interview. It is hard in general to break into IB, so focus on being the best candidate you can be for each interview you can land.

 

Honestly haven't even had to take a single math/stat class as pre-med yet, getting all the chem and bio out of the way. Thank god, wasn't that into stat in HS. If you guys wanna get hung up on percentage points, by all means. Doesn't change the big picture one bit.

 
BlakeCole:

Honestly haven't even had to take a single math/stat class as pre-med yet, getting all the chem and bio out of the way. Thank god, wasn't that into stat in HS. If you guys wanna get hung up on percentage points, by all means. Doesn't change the big picture one bit.

God help me if a doctor tells me - I didn't really study stats, but on the big picture you seem pretty good to go. Don't get hung up about the mortality rates of your heart condition, I don't know them or understand them, but I don't think it's too important.
 

How can someone not take any math classes and have a BS major?! wow.

Whatever. With AA and diversity hiring there is no issue. Combine that with minority owned firms and people of color should have zero issue breaking in if they want.

Nursing is predominately female. Doesn't mean there is discrimination. Maybe AA's historically didn't go into finance and that has continued to perpetuate. Just because there is a disparity doesn't mean there is discrimination.

And FYI, if you are going to be stirring the shit on a finance forum you better be prepared for some people to take you to task on shitty stats you tried using to back up your statement with.

 

OP and BlackCole - PLEASE stop with this whining and quit speaking for the entire AA 'race'

Both of you seem to be suffering from a 'Napoleon Complex' of sorts. You are turning this into a 'there was unjustice against Trayvon Martin' type post.

 

No one is speaking for the entire race. Please reference the terms "my opinion" and "my question." If folks would focus on the original question the thread wouldn't have gone to the left (eg referencing Trayvon Martin - wtf does that have to do with what amounts to a bunch of over opinionated ppl posting on a social media website?)

Like I said, I have my answers and I still don't get all of the name calling.

 

Not as many black people are interested. From my experience, most blacks, especially Africans, still don't see finance as that prestigious and opt for premed or some engineering. And 1st/2nd generation Africans do better than slave descendants. All the black ppl I know on Wall Street are Americans whose parents were born in Ghana/Nigeria/other West African nation.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." --Abraham Lincoln
 
Best Response

You asked why there isn't more diversity on the street given that only 'average talent' is required. Here are my thoughts.

One: you have to have a complete package to get hired. Elements of a complete package: connections, grades, prior experience, relevant knowledge (interview prep), education (brand-name schools preferred). Those elements may change in proportion to each other between candidates, but they're all in the mix. Black students typically underperform relative to their white (and Asian) peers in each/every one of those categories.

a: Black students are less likely to come from the privileged background or the social circle that would grant them the family or friendship connections that make 'networking' less of an earnest, brutal hustle to get a foot in the door and more of a "Hi Uncle Jack's golfing buddy, remember me? I'd like a job."

b: They're also less likely to perform well in school. Google and numerous sociological studies will show you statistics, data, and anecdotal quotes that outline a myriad of reasons that point to the same fact: black kids don't do as well in school as peers of other races.

c: They're also less likely to have internships or extracurriculars, and this may be a function of the two things I previously mentioned. If you don't know someone who can help you get an internship, you're less likely to take one. If you don't have someone who will tell you how important it is to get one in the first place, you're less likely to seek one out. If you don't have good grades, you're less likely to get a competitive internship in the first place, even if you are motivated or aware enough to apply.

d: If you come from a chronically under-resourced community, you are less likely to know how to find out what the right things to study for your aspirational career are. On top of that, you're less likely to master them as well as your peers (circling back to the comment on academic performance and grades).

e: Students from under-resourced communities enjoy less educational equity, meaning they are less likely to have access to the same quality of instruction, the same level of safety and stability in their years of primary and secondary education, and the same variety and quality of extracurricular opportunities as their peers from other races.

As a result, they perform more poorly in primary school, leading to limited secondary school options (no merit entrance to elite private or magnet public schools), leading to poorer results in the college application process (whether by rejection from elite schools applied to or a self-selection to apply exclusively to less elite schools).

Summary: Black kids are less likely to have as 'strong' a profile (based on this formula) as kids from better-resourced backgrounds will.

You can argue until you're blue in the face whether this is a function of: an innate limit on the intelligence of the African race, a poorer work ethic among African-Americans descended from slaves who now don't know how to work hard because they're used to being driven by a slavemaster, a result of an institutionalized and systemic format of oppression over the course of history that has placed blacks in a particularly bad way in America, or any other viewpoint. None of that is the point of this reply.

Two: black communities don't think of finance as a remarkably special or prestigious career. For whatever reason, you'll see a lot of smart black kids going to good schools (i.e. the very kids who would most likely be best-positioned to succeed in the banking recruiting process) focusing on law school or med school so they can be a doctor, lawyer, or enter public service.

A lot of the most successful, historically admired, and prominent black figures in our nation's history were lawyers, civil rights activists, politicians, or doctors. The black community puts a lot of prestige on those fields, so naturally, all the smart kids who pursued the academic route rather than the athletic one tend to gravitate in those directions. As a result, some of the candidates who would in all honesty do pretty well in recruiting don't even try their hand at it.

Summary: This self-selection will automatically reduce the number of black kids you see in finance. Fewer kids trying means fewer kids succeeding and breaking in.

Three: diversity programs often wind up attracting and/or serving the wrong kids. There's an entire host of programs like Prep for Prep, MLT, SEO, Inroads, MBA Jumpstart, etc. that strive to 'change the face of the corporate landscape' by funneling more minorities into the elite banks' and consulting firms' recruiting processes. Unfortunately, far too frequently, these programs do one or both of the following:

a: Accepting, training, and propelling the success of minorities who already enjoy privilege. A huge portion of MLT/SEO/Inroads classes each year are black kids from the Ivies and other top-25/35/whatever schools. Kids like that already have an idea of what's going on, so the programs don't really advance the success of minorities as a whole when they are taking the people who are already informed and prepared for the recruiting process and trying to inform and prepare them for the recruiting process.

If you take 100 kids (numbers made up) who were already planning and studying to apply, you haven't increased the number or (arguably) the quality of the minority applicant pool. On the other hand, were you to go out and take 100 kids who weren't necessary planning or prepared to apply, guided and prepared them to apply, and supported them in their application, you just doubled the number of prepared applicants and thus dramatically increased the number of candidates that may successfully make their way into the industry.

b: Failing to properly train the people they accept. Some of the candidates coming out of these programs really don't know what on earth is going on. They got through the screening process by writing decent essays about their interest in finance, successfully got through the screening interviews without letting on how much of a mouth-breathing retard they are, got into the program, got placed at an investment bank, and failed to get the full-time offer because of how much of a clown they were.

I know someone from a state school who got into one of these programs, got GS IBD for his summer, and failed to return. He was lucky to wind up at another BB for full-time. I know another who got into a scholarship program at one of the most prominent BBs. He literally got cash towards his next school year, that's how competitive this program was. He also failed to return, and as far as I know, he isn't in the industry at all.

I'm not one to say those persons didn't deserve to be in their respective programs, but it's clear they didn't make use of the resources and advantages they were offered (whatever they may have been), and ultimately they harmed both the organization's reputation and the perception of minorities in the industry as a whole through their individual failure and inadequacy.

Summary: diversity programs don't always do the best job of screening for qualified applicants or screening for applicants that actually need the help, resources, and advantages the program offers. As a result, the legitimacy of these programs is hampered, and the reputation of minorities in the industry suffers (as made manifest by the general attitude of so many people posting in this thread [and countless others] already).

Four: innate human behavior works against minorities in a number of ways when it comes to hiring. Resonance is key. People hire who they like, who looks like themselves, who reminds them of something they are comfortable and familiar with. For most minorities, this means that the person in a position to hire them is biologically wired to not want to hire them. It's an unspoken but powerful influence.

A white guy from North Jersey who attended Yale before getting his MBA at Wharton is not going to see much of himself in a black kid in a subpar suit who grew up in Detroit, got a merit scholarship to UMich, is carrying a 3.4 at Ross, and isn't in a fraternity, no matter how on point that kid's line or how crisp his waves may be. On the other hand, the kid from another county in North Jersey who caddied at that guy's country club as a teenager and now attends Wharton undergrad has all kinds of thing in common with the banker: shared locale, social stratum, fellow Whartonite, mutual common acquaintances, etc. The MBA doesn't know why, but he just feels more strongly convinced the second guy can do the job better than the first, even if their GPA is the same. It's science; we're drawn to those similar to ourselves.

Side note: Now, note that earlier I switched from speaking exclusively about black students and began speaking about students from under-resourced communities. Not every student from an unprivileged background is black. There are Hispanic, Asian, and white students suffering from educational inequity as well. They aren't helped by affirmative action or diversity recruiting initiatives. If anything, they're penalized for their ethnicity. While the black kid (rich or poor, underprivileged or privileged) skates into a good school or good job on the laurels of affirmative action, the kid who grew up next door (be it in a rich neighborhood with manicured lawns or a violent neighborhood of dilapidated rowhomes) gets no leg up because he isn't an under-represented minority.

Comments unrelated to your original question: You shouldn't be so preoccupied with wondering why things are the way they are and simply focus on what lies ahead of you.

a: Worry less about what others think. Be humble, be hardworking, and win people over. That means that in your networking and interviews, you need to prove you are likable and capable. It's that simple. Someone who successfully and convincingly portrays that will get hired: white, black, yellow, brown, purple, or orange.

b: Prepare yourself. Study hard, be informed and knowledgeable, and crush interviews. Focus less on preemptively pointing fingers elsewhere and make sure you do everything within your control to make sure you maximize any opportunity put in front of you.

c: Be smart. This may sound contradictory, but once you get in (if you do), be aware of the things that will affect you. It sucks, but make sure you're smiling, pleasant, cheerful, and articulate. Someone may be biased against you without even really knowing it. It can truly be culturally ingrained into them, no matter how loudly they claim they aren't bigoted or judgmental. Make sure you are aware of the way perceptions can harm you as a black woman, and work actively to prevent anything from blowing up on you.

In closing: You can do anything you set your mind to. I did. I broke into one of the leading banks in the industry, earlier than most, and succeeded better than most ... even though I didn't look like anyone else there. This isn't to blow my own horn, this is simply to indicate what's possible if you're a worker. Be a worker. Put your head down and work. Be smart, but just work.

I am permanently behind on PMs, it's not personal.
 

Come on man.

There are Egyptian-Americans, Persian-Americans, Indians, Africans, Koreans, etc MDs anywhere. I mean who cares if you're in the minority? Just rock at your job, be classy, get people to like you, and add real value and you'll get a job in IB regardless of who and what you are.

I know a guy at CS who is black in Real Estate IB and is a top analyst. Being black means nothing, stop pretending like it does in either preventing you from being successful or giving you an advantage. I know another dude who is no longer in IB but is black and got hired at Goldman Sachs IB a few years ago. I'm the only non-white guy in the entire IB division at my bank so what?

I feel black people in America always think of "blacks" and "white" while everyone else (hispanics, asians, arabs) whatever are too busy trying to make it to waste their time on imagined discrimination when there is not any. This probably holds back African-Americans. Real Africans from Africa I feel also share that new immigrant work ethic and are more successful than African-Americans sometimes.

 

In this thread here....shows a lot of the reasons why the world is the way it is. Banks aren't more racist or less racist than any other companies...they do the same things to try to bring on diversity. The difference is banks require a certain level of requirements that black people (get out of here with this African American, nonsense unless you are talking about FOB or 1st generation, 3-4 generations in have they even been to Africa?) commonly don't have considering that a significantly less number of black people attend college and those who do don't attend the institutions or major in the things necessary to getting hired. So stop spewing the "banks are racist" bullshit, I'm tired of reading it. Happy New Years Eve, btw.

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee WSO is not your personal search function.
 

No one said anything about banks being racist. More interesting in your post - Americans of African descent are no longer African-American but are now just black? I'm learning all kinds of things on this thread. Happy New Year to you too!

 

If you think first generation African Americans are the same as people who are 3-4 generation African Americans (blacks) thats fine..I'll just let you know you should explore more America. You'll see some interesting things...

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee WSO is not your personal search function.
 

Also, too add onto the points APAE mentioned (awesome post btw, incredibly accurate) I don't know many blacks in finance but I think quite a few of them aren't even that interested in the industry. On the other hand, I know a shit ton of blacks in Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and Columbia Law Schools. I think most blacks are interested in finding avenues to remedy social injustices that they feel are important and the usually do that through law, public and civil service, etc. If not they typically gravitate towards vocational occupations like engineering and medicine because they're far safer.

 

Remedying social injustices sounds like we're still in the 1960's. Time to wake up and get the weight up and become active participants in the financial industry and financial markets. Note - do not read anything into the statement "get the weight up" as a negative to the professions and occupations that you cite as examples (lol! I've been sensitized to being monkey shitted all over this thread!)

 

IB probably won't work out for you, but you'll definitely fit in at MSNBC. Why don't you check them out?

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." --Abraham Lincoln
 
nomesonwallstreet:

Is that an insulting internal cool kid IB acronym?

More like the annoying TV station that sees everything through the lens of race. And occasionally gender.

Happy New Year, btw

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." --Abraham Lincoln
 
nomesonwallstreet:

No one said anything about banks being racist. More interesting in your post - Americans of African descent are no longer African-American but are now just black? I'm learning all kinds of things on this thread. Happy New Year to you too!

You don't need to directly say anything to insinuate it. By the way, I'm pretty sure the "black" statement was to highly how picky certain populations get in terms of PC labels. What, should I call my white neighbour a German-American to respect his 7-generations-ago roots? Why do Indians usually call themselves that instead of Indian-American? Or should we stick to South-Asian-American? tl;dr - Occam's Razor. I'm calling African-Americans "blacks" like everyone calls my Scandinavian-American friends "white". Sorry if it offends.
nomesonwallstreet:

Lol! Savior - your reply is non responsive to the original post - stay focused. Hate? Who introduced that to the thread? Sounds like logic and reading comprehension aren't required for a job in IB given your response.

Replies don't have to be responsive to the original post. It's a forum, not a Q&A. Posters are allowed to respond to other posters or bring up peripherally relevant ideas if it contributes to the topic at hand. Dude, have you even been on the Internet before?
nomesonwallstreet:

This is more of a reactionary inquiry since there seems to be an overarching attitude on a lot of forums and posts on this site that IB "only" requires average intelligence, no top schools, so on and so forth.

... wait what? You're taking people's statements way out of context. No, IB is not the most difficult position in the world, and in all honesty a state school kid can be intelligently qualified to work in it. Doesn't mean that IB isn't difficult to break into (i.e. top schools are not a requirement but they certainly help). Just because a few people of average intelligence + non-target managed to break in does not mean that the entire industry is full of similar types. Nor does it mean that achieving that "baseline" should grant you entry (which you heavily imply in your OP and subsequent posts).

This has to be a troll. I refuse to believe that a top 5 MBA-educated black woman has the time to personally reply to every post on this thread - regardless of whether they were addressed to her or not - and 1) justify her ignorance, 2) police how "on topic" we are, and 3) use atrocious English. How the fuck did you manage to pass your case studies? Shouldn't you be taking this time to, I don't know, job search or something?

Currently: future neurologist, current psychotherapist Previously: investor relations (top consulting firm), M&A consulting (Big 4), M&A banking (MM)
 

Seems like folks get upset and emotional over the smallest of issues - lol. I've been told how I should properly self identify myself and that I'm utterly stupid over a post. Since I started the thread and I'm attempting to get some perspectives then why can't I ask folks to stay on topic. It's not out of line to reply to posts to encourage or discourage the direction of the dialogue. Looking at your post you don't appear to be a master at English either but that's cool - I wouldn't dare challenge your accomplishments/achievements over some blog. Get a grip!

 

My point is that it is perfectly fine to encourage responses to your OP. It is, however, poor Internet forum etiquette to police others by telling them to "get in line or shut up."

No, I have not worked with any blacks in the front office. It's worth mentioning, of course, that..: 1) Internship #1 was done virtually for a mid-market bank in Connecticut 2) Internship #2 was for a Jew-founded mid-market bank in Boston 3) Internship #3 was for a boutique bank with 4 people I have worked with blacks in FO for management consulting, though.

Currently: future neurologist, current psychotherapist Previously: investor relations (top consulting firm), M&A consulting (Big 4), M&A banking (MM)
 
 ok, so let me get this.. foreigners of color come into this country and succeed despite all odds, but yet african americans are still singing about being discriminated against? Cry me a river.. The reason why there arent more AA people in <span class="keyword_link"><a href="//www.wallstreetoasis.com/finance-dictionary/what-is-the-front-office-fo">front office</a></span> finance positions is because they are either unqualified or not interested. There are a couple of well educated african americans who would fit the bill but for the most part, they focus on public service and careers where they feel they can make a difference in the african american community. Sure, wall street might have a good old boys club but if you are intelligent and great at what you do, you will be offered a chance to prove yourself regardless of race. After all, a company would be dumb to lose talent that could potentially bring them money. I am tired of the excuses, the song is getting old. A huge amount of the AA community aspires to be in rap or sports, if they put the same amount of effort in finance, i am sure they would make a headway. Imagine if every 5'7, 160lb caucasian complained about not making linebacker in the NFL due to discrimination? African americans need to lose that sense of entitlement. You were wronged years ago, stop laying down and expecting people to console you years later. Everyone has their ladder to climb, if anything african americans should be more motivated to prove people wrong about their situation instead of waiting for hand-me-down's. People claim america is discriminatory but i think a lot of people need to visit other countries then you'll appreciate how good we have it in the states. Its for this very reason most africans would rather not be identified as african americans.
 

^ truth.

You think blacks have it bad here in the states? We have a black President for Christ sake. Do you think stuff like that will ever happen in France or Europe?

African-Americans wield tremendous political power here in the US and they have nothing near that kind of recognition or status in Europe (and anywhere else apart from all black nations like Haiti and Africa)

 

Again off topic from the original post. Where have you seen anything re: blacks having it bad in the US? Political power means nothing compared to financial power which you don't get without active participation in the financial sector. No one is crying a river. Obi2012 - what are you talking about? Are you serious re: IB being a complete meritocracy? I agree re: AAs being conditioned to believe that the only way to achieve wealth is through entertainment or dope dealing and yes we do need to make significant strides going forward in climbing that FO IB ladder. Make no mistake I surely am not waiting for anyone's hand me down!

Re: who has "right and title" to be called african-american I really don't give a shit. I am african-american and I claim it without hesitation, reservation and unapoligetically. Call yourself (or don't call yourself) whatever you like.

 

These are sample quotes from other threads on this website that are interesting to say the least. I do understand that these opinions represent a sample of the industry; however, like I said previously - if we accepted the negative stereotypes and over generalizations (emphasis added) that are associated with AAs (that I personally do not believe are true) then why aren't there more in IB? chicaandtoughness I understand and appreciate your perspective as previously posted but I'm posting these quotes anyway because this isn't a troll post.

"I had an associate who transferred from our head office. She got >1 hour in late every morning, out by 6 most days, no intellectual curiosity or desire to do work, but plenty of assurance that the head office way of doing things was best."

"I'm an experienced analyst, and while I agree that this kind of stuff is run of the mill for banking, it still really sucks. Maybe your situation is a bit different, but I've worked with multiple associates in my group who do no work, leave early (6-7), upsell expectations with the VP/MD"

"I generally feel that the associate role is pretty useless in banking. I'm not sure how it works across the street, but my group has a really strong analyst class and a really weak associate class, due mainly to the fact that there's an entrenched culture of associates doing no work which is passed on every year to the new guys."

"I graduated from a target-but-not-top university and have an econ undergrad degree (no honors or anything fancy like that). So honestly, I am rather satisfied with the work I do. I mean, given my very limited actual skills and lack of family connections"

"I'm sorry, but the idea that investment banks hire the "best and brightest" of America's college talent is a bunch of bullshit that HR tells the new analyst classes every year to flatter their egos. Stop drinking the Kool Aid."

"not to be a dick but 99% of ppl in ibd are not that smart."

 

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm sure that this list is full of accomplished folks; however, think about those 75 in context.

Everyone here has shown how ultra intelligent they are so you can extrapolate some estimates. GS 2014 Analyst class size is 332. Let's say that an identical number of offers were made across the top 10 IBs meaning for 3,320 total new analyst hires for 2014. Using Academic Year '09-'10 (first google query) numbers for Academic Year '13-'14 appx .2% of all BS degree recipients go into IB. This same academic year 10.3% of bachelors degrees were earned by blacks. Since IBs hire across all majors I'll apply that .2% statistic to black bachelors degree recipients then there "should" be appx 341 blacks per incoming top 10 IB class (keeping all things constant including level of interest, grades, etc). Now let's discount that number by 75% for poor academic performance and lack of interest etc. leaving 85 blacks going into IB. Assuming a fallout rate of 95% roughly 4 blacks should climb the ranks annually.

Now let's say that blacks started participating in corporate america in real numbers in 1975. Spread those 75 blacks highlighted across 39 years of corporate participation that leaves blacks with 2 top level representatives on Wall Street per year (this 75 is arbitrary - it could have very well been 100 but I'm going to stick with 75). The likelihood that blacks will make up those 2 top level Wall Street reps is highly unlikely now that tech and other opportunities are more prevalent and lucrative so there will a pull from the pool of 82 leaving less than 2% of the incoming class being black.

Now the question is are there really 82 blacks going into the Analysts ranks in 2014? I'm going to step out on a limb and say probably not. I'm also going to assume that the numbers at the post-MBA level are probably similar or worse.

And for douchy good measure, non-hispanic whites make up 69% of the US population while blacks make up 14% so if we were to go purely by population representation there "should" be 2,290 whites and 465 which would be the mindblower of the millennium.

Wait for it . . . wait for it . . .

 

i dont know the numbers nor do i care but i think its worth noting that dealers like bear sterns and Goldman Sachs were started by jews in the first half of the 1900s because "white shoe" banks like lehman, Merrill, brown brothers, etc expressly refused to hire any jewish people and in many cases didnt even want to do business with jewish companies. There was no affirmative action program...quite the opposite. Draw your own conclusions but that is fact.

 
Bondarb:

i dont know the numbers nor do i care but i think its worth noting that dealers like bear sterns and Goldman Sachs were started by jews in the first half of the 1900s because "white shoe" banks like lehman, Merrill, brown brothers, etc expressly refused to hire any jewish people and in many cases didnt even want to do business with jewish companies. There was no affirmative action program...quite the opposite. Draw your own conclusions but that is fact.

Generally true, except Lehman was started by two Jewish brothers in Alabama who were trading cotton. It was a heavily Jewish firm.
 

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Sed blanditiis quos sunt aut. Illo aspernatur vel voluptate soluta ab odit a. Blanditiis mollitia qui ducimus occaecati.

 

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Eum illo non voluptatibus. Nobis officia repellendus saepe saepe quis ratione quo.

I am permanently behind on PMs, it's not personal.
 

Suscipit quia autem a consequatur. Consequatur ut quia non dolore laborum voluptas quos ut. Quidem et voluptas commodi facilis. Illum voluptatem at exercitationem illo rerum.

Qui sed et debitis mollitia quia libero voluptatibus. Non ipsum tempore qui repudiandae consequatur earum. Ea accusantium et et omnis vel ullam corporis.

 

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