I was recently chatting to an MD who spent some time at DB in London, he mentioned something which may be of use to some of you. He said that they tended to avoid hiring Analyst from the UK. Why?: No languages? Nope. Poor education? Nope. Diversity? Nope.
The reasoning was: they have too much of a social life.
Think about it. Pierre flies into London, gets a flat, hits up Hyde Park and Westminster, attends his IBD training program. So far so good. 8 weeks later, Pierre has had a good few booze ups with his IBD class mates during training, saw a long lost friend from his old school once and hasn't left the office before 12 yet. He has spent 80% of his time with his eyes open and awake with is colleagues - they are now his only friends in London.
Harry on the other hand, knows the shit out of London. During training, gets to know his future colleagues, thinks "these guys are alright, bit continental though....", gets out of class, rings his uni mates, house party and a night at Raffles with some chicks is on the cards. Sick. To Analyst class: "okaybyeseeyatomorrow."
6 months down the road, Harry is frustrated, angry and constantly missing out on going to Henley Regatta, or the Hurlingham Polo. Fucking work. Pierre has no one to go with anyway - all his mates are working too, right? - no multiple friendship groups texting him to see if he's about for some LDN fun. No invitation to capitalise upon a group of American chicks on tour that a friend has coordinated. Pierre doesn't like the hours, but is a hell of a lot less frustrated.
Anyway, thought I'd share.
Wow never thought about it.
Uh...okay.
well, not sure what to say? If DB in London are not big on hiring folks from the UK, then who are they hiring? Only expats from other countries? Hard to believe?!
Also, who says that every Pierre out there is unable to find friends and a great social life after a weeks of settling in? In fact, it is very easy to meet people/new friends in London (or any other major city) - unless you are entirely anti-social (in that case why would someone want to hire a personality like that in the first place? IB has strong emphasis on social skills after all).
Sounds like it's more that they prefer nerds over cool people than Non-English over English
Only having a life inside the office makes you not cool at all.
this is bs. Alot of non-english analysts are english educated (atleast uni, with some boarding+uni), so they would have a similar social life available to native english.
its mainly just languages.
I'm sort of hoping this guy was at least partially joking, otherwise it seems he hasn't thought things through particularly.
The whole argument is premised on the idea that UK=London...a lot of the IBD guys I know are from the UK outside London, and not all of them know much more about London or many more people in London than anyone from France/Germany/Italy/Netherlands does. Seems like this argument only really applies to analysts who grew up in/went to uni in London, which, while it probably constitutes a significant proportion of analysts, isn't everyone by any means.
Yeah, banking is completely London-centric, but surely people realise that those from outside London won't necessarily have a different social life available to them in London than anyone from mainland Europe?
People with half a personality will make friends outside of work and find fun things to do. You could shove me in a seat in Tokyo and in 6 months I would be just as miserable and pissed at working all the time and missing shit as a native.
This logic also fails the easiest example, the USA. NYC banks hire American kids all the time and they somehow manage to make it through their two years while missing friends and college buddies. I am sure there are some equally motivated UK kids who want to succeed in finance.
I agree with TNA. Especially for anyone who has actually worked in London - you know how easy it is to make new friends etc.
plus since its London loads of friends from uni, high school and along the way find their way into the city, live here, come over on weekends frequently etc.
The OP's friend missed a point: Pierre's employment opportunities in Paris are a 45k EUR/year cap, probably starting at less than 20 or 30k EUR, fighting for every inch of his career, paying tax and being reviled by everybody in his town, with no real deal flow vs London, and few opportunities to move up socially, in a country that is just a decade or two from bankrupcy, in a city filled with crime and constant strikes and whose famous food is not what it used to be and keeps getting more expensive.
London offers him a step up - if he works hard enough he can be middle-upper class and get out of his country who hates him anyway because he is daring to try and be successful. Not saying the UK is much of an improvement but at least some of the population thinks getting rich is a good thing. Because of this, Pierre will be willing to take a lot more before he quits to join an eco-conscious media non-profit oriented semi-governmental startup in Soho.
When medical interns with 10 years of studies and experience working 80h weeks, or fresh graduated lawyers make 1k EUR a month in a city where a pizza costs 20 EUR, it's hard to call the country first world anymore.
Good point. But remember, this isn't my logic, this isn't my take on the situation, I'm a merely regurgitating the words of the MD.
Doesn't fail. Your US example isn't predicated upon the relative options open to your fellow Analysts. Most of the US kids are in the same boat. London guys aren't. Don't know if you've personally been through this, but missing someone in a different country and missing someone who is standing outside, but you can't go see them is a different feeling. In addition, the latter will expect / initiate more contact, the former wont, you're in different time zones after all....
You don't get it. The point is there is no real, "normal" life outside of the office. You spend all your time in it. Pierre may be perfectly adapt at making friends, he just doesn't have the time to. True. But most kids post uni from a decent UK uni end up in London.You clearly don't know anything about France so stop embarrassing yourself...
FYI the base salary for an analyst in IBD in Paris is c.€65k (vs. £45k in London)...
He clearly isn't only talking about base salaries...
Does it really matter IBD base salary is euros 65k? You are probably on your 10th internship at that point when you make it to 65k. Our swiss Friend description of France is extremely accurate, it's really depressing and sad.
Just two point: "The food is not what it used to be", that's bull. The food is still excellent, you just need to know where to get it, ie: not in August in the Latin Quarter. Sure there are good restaurants in London that compare to Paris, but the rest of England has shit food, and waitrose is shi.t compared to any low end French super market.
And the deal flow is dead is slightly inaccurate, there are deals going through in France, just to the banks that are on the right side of the government! Remember there is still money to plunder from the people (well very little, but still...) Lazard thank you very much...
Now on the positive side, France has the best eduction system for banking, and has complete programs that train people to become middle office at University as well as quants... No wonder London is full of French people, as there are no jobs in Paris, and the quality of the people is brilliant (same goes for Germans, but we are talking about the French here...)
moral of the story---english are piss heads
Why would an investment bank think 'oh this guy has a social life so let's not hire him' - shouldn't they be thinking 'this guy will make us money and do a damn good job so let’s hire him?'
I think it’s also a cultural thing. I have worked with Europeans and they are (generally) 'nicer' and willing to do more work without complaining. People from the UK tend to be brought up with an 'entitled lazy' attitude I think. However, a lot of people who get into IBD are from Oxbridge which tend to be full of British private school kids so unless we have real stats which break down analyst classes we cannot draw any conclusions.
Although - I'd like to think this is why I struggle to get into IBD despite having a 'strong profile'. lol
Wow you're naive. MDs want their Analysts to crank, not to sit there resenting them for the pitch they've just staffed them on which made them missed out on the outside world.
OP if this is true then why doesn't the 'nerdy Asian kid with no social life who does calculus for fun' (no racism or generalisations intended) get hired into IBD? Also - why then are most of the MD's and VP's at investment banks English/British?
Personally I think it’s a language issue. If you can hire 'the same' guy who knows an extra language - all else equal - you will hire him. You can teach someone financial modeling or accounting but it’s much tougher to teach someone a language in a short space of time. Therefore the language skill is valued more.
Err...they do. I've met quite a few.
That's a broad, and inaccurate generalization, but explained by the fact that people of MD age want to raise a family in their home country. And one could argue, the sales and charm portion of an MD's job lends itself more to the Brits than, for example, the Germans.
When I saw the class breakdown they are typically 1-2 per 100 though (and usually super overqualified). Good point about MD's - this is what I was trying to say in my previous post but I think it came out wrong. Thanks for clarifying.
Oreo thanks for the laugh :) never thought about it this way, but definitely going to share that view with my my mates know. Read it out loud in the office, the desk assistant was absolutely outraged :)
Really like this take on it though. And so so so true as well; I remember in my grad class that's exactly what happened, the London guys would go: "alright ciao guys am off partying with my real friends!"
This is great! I do not live in the UK so I should have a good chance to get in DB
now you mention it, everyone i know at DB London isn't from the UK
I see the logic, but this can be applied to any nationality and any location where someone has a group of friends not in the same time-intensive industry.
I blow off networking events with analysts or leave early pretty often to hang out with friends outside of the industry. Reason being, I work long hours (with all those co-workers) and so when I have free time I prefer to hang out with people I choose to hang out with, not ones that (nice as they are) were simply hired by the same company I was.
I am much the same way and I work in PE. Sometimes you need a break.
true
This seems pretty accurate. I did an internship at a BB and out of the 60-odd interns, 3 were English. I was the ONLY native-born English guy out of 60 people. The vast majority were European with 2 or 3 other language skills.
One of the HR girls I know at a European BB in London told me more or less the same. It's just ridiculous (and I'm from continental Europe btw).
I don't see why everyone is freaking out about this. This is just something he heard. Whether or not it holds any legitimacy is irrelevant- it's just something to think about.
Again you guys are missing the point most Europeans at bbs are uk educated so the mds argument is retarded (no wonder, if he would be smart he wouldn't be in banking)
Nope they are not.
Yeah not true...over 50% of my SA class in London are non-UK educated, as are most of those that I know people on. A fair few French, Dutch, German educated.
So true. The only difference is that I don't miss out on all of social events. Sure, sometimes I have to suck it up and work late and weekends/holidays, but generally don't work more than 60 hours.
Interesting...I wonder to what extent the same dynamic is also at play in the U.S. For example, other things being equal, a NYC based firm might prefer to hire a transplant who hardly knew anyone here over someone who is from the Tri-state area/went to school in the City.
I don't think it's the fact that they have an existing social circle.
It is just less common for UK (local) students to pursue a masters level course or have fluency in multiple EMEA languages. Even though some non-indigenous UK students may have fluency in APAC languages (Hindi, Marathi, Cantonese, Mandarin, Japanese) this is not so relevant as say, French, Arabic, German or Russian in a London-based IBD team.
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