Why I make fun of operations:

what about hedge fund ops - for a lot of funds thats the only way to get in out of undergrad. I may be forced to go that route not because I want to, but because I can't break into IB.

in any operations job at a bank in the US is lacking a high school diploma.

some people just don't care as much about their careeer, and operations is a career where you can work normal hours and make decent money.

i dont work in ops...but

isn't it true that people working in BB Ops have a good shot at a good MBA (maybe not as good as IB analyts)?
maybe ppl do it for that.

if you don't care as much about your career, do something non-finance related. not exactly construction work, but something creative and fun. why deal with finance politics if you aren't doing anything productive?

i dont know, but somewhere i heard Sloan loves Ops people. Could be BS.

working at a bank in opeations is a steady, low risk job. And you make more than working in operations for other industries.

it's the same question as to why stay in investement banking when you could move to a hedge fun and make more? b/c it's less risky.

i started my career in ops...it is defintely dead end, thats why i left after 2 yrs and doing ER now...
I agree with you that some dont even have a hs diploma
(the 40 yr old analysts)... but that does not just apply to ops.... check sales/trading..

btw i must be an outlier.. 1540 sat... columbia...

nyc9982, that's fine. i just don't want people to fall into the misconception that it's any better than working as a paralegal in Dallas. if you are in ops at GS in NY, the fact that you have the GS name on your resume does NOT mean you are working an "exciting wall street job," despite the fact that your relatives in kansas think so.

...i started in ops and now trade prop at a major broker/dealer. I am not recomending it but it is only dead end if you make it dead end. I personally wouldnt trade the 1 year i did in the back-office and the two i did in middle office for any training program because I learned a ton about the mechanics of the products I now trade as opposed to a banker that learns nothing about markets. After those three years i could sit in an interview with experienced guys and really talk intelligently about the products they trade. Because of that I got a job I was totally unqualified for and was able to run with it when i actually showed up on the job. When we interview kids from banking programs it is laughable...no different then an undergrad. They know nothing about markets...maybe they have a view on the Fed or a stock they like but they have no chance of talking about the stuff we trade and they start way behind where I was when I got into the front office on the buyside. Not to mention the fact that I am ten times scrappier then the guys I work with who came from traditional backgrounds (both at my firm and people my age I talk to regularly at other firms). So to conclude, ops isnt good because you have to be more exceptional to do well but for trading I think it is better training then any analyst program..especially more complex FI and credit products.

This original post is so near sighted and juvenile it's making my head spin...

Bondarb... true but seriously, who's going to move from banking to s&t?
Besides, what you should be comparing yourself to is undergrad. You spent 3 years to learn the ropes. Surely the undergrads who are hired, after 3 years, would know as much as you did when you started.

"working at a bank in opeations is a steady, low risk job. And you make more than working in operations for other industries."

The low risk side of this is definitely NOT true. Compliance/Ops jobs are being outsourced to India as we speak. My best friend from college works at M/B/B and he has already advised BofA/JPM on what ops areas to outsource. If anyone works at those banks, you should know that within the next year there will be MAJOR restructuring announcements. I believe Citi already did theirs a few months ago.

And don't knock ops, I interned their sophomore summer and leveraged the experience to land a FT M&A job at a good ibank that has a very large financial parent (tho def not a BB)...my two cents

Is ops at a HF different than at a BB in regard to how it looks on your resume, exposure, exit ops, etc.

I know some funds recruit top notch undergrad, but other than that, ops is really the only way to go straight to the buy side.

Any thoughts?

...i am not in sales and trading i work on the buyside. S&T programs on the sell-side are totally different then trading on the buyside as you spend much of your time as an analyst learning about client relationships and how to sell. Trading may be different as I talk to traders less frequently and when i do the ones who talk to clients are generally more senior. After three years I do think i had a better handle on the products i trade then the people who are on the other side of the phone (ie salespeople who grew up in the front-office). This is not true of the average ops person but i put in tons of work out of the office reading and studying whereas kids in analyst programs assume they are learning all they need to know.

I work in ops for one simple reason, to gain access to the people in the firm that can make me that rare case and bring me into a better group. Thanks bondarb for making it so the rest of have something to shoot for.

The guy that post this was messaging me about all this. As far as i'm concerned everyone does what they have to do in order to grow as individuals. Not everyone wants to be an I-banker. Whatever route we must take to get where we are going doesnt need to be justified to the elite.

...don't panic...put in a year or two and do a good job, learn everything you can, and then if your firm dosent hire out of ops into the front-office look for other junior trading-type jobs (if you dont want to trade/run money then I am not the right person to ask b/c that's all i ever wanted to do). Jobs are out there if you look around and become a sharp "market-person" who can talk the talk. But what you should really be doing also is enjoying yourself...when i was just out of college and in ops i spent way to much time worrying about my career and not enough time realizing that i was in the most stress-free time of my career. I really wish I had enjoyed working 9-5ish in Manhattan with no after-hours responsibility and just enough money to enjoy the city. So do what you have to do to manage your career but also enjoy the benefits of not getting those jobs you wanted out of college, you'll regret it later if you dont! Also dont be jealous of or worry about people who have better jobs...in fact be happy for them and try to learn from their success. Obviously when I was in ops I knew a ton of people my age who were making alot more money and doing more prestigous things then i was but i tried to never let it bum me out. In fact I would ask them questions about what they did, how they liked it, etc. so I could learn more about the industry. Many of them now ask me advice on how to get to the buyside and i try to help them out. 5 years from now maybe i'll be the one needing help again...

I'm glad this thread came along, because I'm actually sitting on a decision to make shortly regarding ops. I have been trying to break into corp. fin/equity research for quite sometime now, and it hasn't panned out. Went to a non-target, good gpa, just wasn't able to bridge that gap yet. I am interviewing right now for a hedge fund ops position, and I need to decide quickly if its the right move (should i get the offer).

Bondarb makes me feel a little better about it with how he describes his journey through ops, but it seems he was interested in trading. My biggest concern is, since I am interested in corporate finance/research, what skills will I gain through ops that I can transfer to that type of position. I already know the basic answer to this - the answer is none. But can I use a position in HF ops to go back to a top ten MBA? Can I bust my ass, read a million books, get my cfa, do a bunch of charity work, and then transition to research or IB?

I know what I want to do, but obviously have to go the long route in getting there, so I have to ask people who have been through it already. I need to know the real answers to these questions before I make a potentially career changing decision.

Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.

Calvin, first of all ops positions at hedge funds are becoming more and more competative for undergrads to obtain. Believe it or not, a lot of the ops employees(at the fund where I work)come from reputable schools (think of schools like top three lib. arts). These same kids would probably have no problem getting a job in an IBD but they chose otherwise. It is extremely difficult (not impossible) to land a front office job at a fund right out of school because you really haven't proven yourself and know absolutely nothing about the markets. So the next best thing is operation/trade support. This isn't a dead end position on the buy side unless you make it.

I don't quite understand why you are so hell bent on eventually getting an eq. research job at a BB when these jobs already exist on the buyside. If you are a hard worker and intelligent, opportuniites may open up (especially if the fund you are looking at is small). If they don't pan out at that fund, use all of the product knowledge that you've learned and leverage that into another position. Repeat this process until you get into an equity research role somewhere (plenty of HF job opportunities out there considering the ~8,000 funds around).

Btw, I was in the same position as you upon graduating from school. I went with a middle office role at a reputable fund and will most likely leverage it into a position on a desk (Trader Assistant type role). It's my ultimate goal to trade or do research. I will most likely not stop until I get there. I will also most likely never work at a large bank as there is no reason to leave the buyside.

My advice would be to work hard, learn as much as you can about all products, and keep you eyes on your goals. In all honesty, it seems you are second guessing your decission because of the buzz you hear. Sometimes (mostly all of the time) the best opportunities come from not following the crowd. Had Warren Buffett followed all the buzz, I doubt he'd be where he is today.

Hope this helps...

I have an offer from a BB ops division. My only concern at this point is how much the salary progresses with time. I know it doesn't compare even remotely to banking or s/t, but I want to know roughly how much you would make as a third year analyst and what kind of salary increase you get when you are promoted to associate and later to vp. Does anybody have any information about this?

Thanks in advance,

Cachiman

One time I got the "you've got to put the time back in for the time we spent on you" during an ops interview as a reason why I should spend two years doing ops crap while waiting to possibly move to a higher position.. wow.

But anyways.. ops at a hedgefund is actually hard to get. Ops at an investment bank is really just ops, compliance, and cleaning up the mess of the front office. As a last resort, take it. But somebody here suggested moving down the competitive ladder and trying to get into a boutique instead for a front office position. Also try offices in non-core city areas that need analysts more. First try any place you know somebody. Any advantage you can get is really helpful.

I'm posting in this old thread b/c I have an offer in IB Ops in NYC, as well as an offer as a Research Assistant for a well-known HF in Greenwich. It's not equity research or anything - just a general research position, wherein I'm obtaining economic/financial data for traders and other groups and packaging it for them. Is this "lower down" on the ladder than ops? Or is it higher (in your opinion)? Additionally, would it be a wiser decision b/c it's in an HF (with bonuses and all)?

ditto. Ive had access to alot of ppl from my BB across the firm. If you are very close to graduating and dont have an IBD job and thats where you want to be, your better off going into Ops and networking and meeting ppl who are where you want to be than working as a Marketing Associate(read: driving a redbull van around college campuses).

But I do see the perspective of the Orig Poster, if I was a first yr analyst that gets shit on all day, Id prob come on a message board and try to shit on the back office and make myself feel better about going home every night smelling like MD fecal matter... hang in there buddy, and rinse with vinegar.

FYI... I search the firm directory for people who have listed back office roles in their history because I feel they can relate more and are more willing to help... and Ive come across ALOT of ppl who started in ops and are now working front office roles.

I dont think thats a dilema. eff ops. Take the HF.

Why even compare ops and i-banking? Apples and Oranges people... The hours are good, no stress, nice life. Become an entrepreneur? Wtf? I think I won't even bother commenting on that.
Somebody mentioned how w/ ops they knew more than a salesman, and thus could become a trader more easily. Great. So what? I'll be doing sales because that's what I want to do; if I wanted to become a trader I would have become one and would have gone into trading right away... Same goes for the argument about M&A guys knowing nothing about markets; so who gives a f...? They will just go get an MBA or go to a PE firm or something. If you go into M&A you obviously didn't plan on going into markets... Unless you made a terrible mistake.
Different people follow different career paths, no job is better than another. What might be good for you might be not interesting for someone else.
The job the guy had in office space? Well I did something like that when i was in college and I had a blast. I just like selling better.
I couldn't do M&A for the life of me, but different people can do different things. One of my high school buddy is a clerk at some internet coffee, he smokes weed all day and is in love with life.

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Remember, you will always be a salesman, no matter how fancy your title is.
- My ex girlfriend

if i take a job in IB Ops, and i screwed forever? or .. what.. my other option is HF research assistant

would take the HF research assistant position

Your reaction is so childish and arrogant... typical of the overconfident analyst. Keep in mind that a lot of ppl don't go to Ivey school, aren't as "smart read xls proficient" and still like the idea of working for a big bank.
Further, lots of ppl are just happy with a 8-5 job that has no pressure and pay OK (better than most companies in NYC).
Finally what would your bank do if nobody wanted this "low level" job? Answer: your MD would order you to stay 4 more hours per day to do it, you would do it like an obedient analyst and would love every second of it ha ha ha :-) (segregation of duty aside)

Jokes aside, respect the little people... you need them cause you surely don't want to do what they do and can't operate without them.

So Corpfinance you're saying that an analyst could do in four hours what the back office guy needs from 8-5 to do?

I'm sorry, being an analyst in any division of a bank is not much more exciting than being a paralegal. Only being a paralegal isn't an obligatory step to becoming a lawyer. Only you take more shit from your bosses. And a monkey could do your job.

Operations is as important a part of the bank as the front office client-facing golden retrievers. If you need a reminder, we have the airlines to remind us.

This is why I'm going to law school.....that way, I'm only semireplaceable. You can't hire Joe Shmoe off the street to write up a merger agreement, or write a legal memo for that matter.

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-

Banking analysts have such an inflated sense of self-worth (and I say this as one myself). 90% of the work is menial crap, and the 10% modeling and valuation skills could be learned by a smart finance major alongside another job easily with the right software and/or books.

I worked in ops for one summer and absolutely hated every second of it. All I did was data entry for three months. Although, I did get to see how much everybody had in their P.A. and it inspired me even more to become a banker

the same job in 4h... what I am saying is that I don't think analysts are so much above the back-office that they can make fun of them... they do what they're asked to do... and on a per hour basis probably make less than back-office folks.
No matter where you stand, arrogance is not helping in any way.
That's it... but what do I know, I never was an analyst :-))

I know in the previous posts ppl mentioned that HF Ops is something that is quite a viable option coming out of undergrad b/c if you work at it hard enough that can eventually translate into a trading assistant role on a desk somewhere on the buyside

Does that also apply to a middle office/trade support role at a prestigious and large asset management firm? (I'm talking like Blackrock, Fidelity, PIMCO, etc.)
Would you guys say that such a position would be more challenging and prestigious than Ops at a BB?

it will be as before. Transfer should much more difficult now

is compliance considered operations and therefore a deadend as well?

I doubt the transfer would be "more difficult" now.

To answer the question re: asset management. I'm sure the reason hedge fund ops is better simply b/c most funds are relatively small. You can make more of an impact. Not so at a huge AM like Blackrock etc. I'm sure the likelihood of transferring is similar to that of IB ops. Possible, but exceptions and not the rule. Further, if you try hard enough, you can make something else altogether happen. I know a guy who did Asset Management Ops at a BB and is now involved in structuring at a Big 4. Different path, but is definitely a front-office from back-office switch.

Cheers.

I have to choose b/w a HF (operations)(TORONTO) and big 4 Corporate finance (UAE). I wanted to stay in North america after studying here, but at this point big 4 CF seems like a better option even though its outside NA. Long term I don't plan to go into trading, but maybe a research analyst.
After having the interview at HF, they told me that starting in OPS is a good way to see what an analyst, trader, quants do and decide if you will actually like it, and if front office opportunities exist, I can advance to becoming an analyst in a year or so.

on the other hand, big 4 CF in UAE is a graduate program where I will be mostly assisting in modeling the typical M&A things.

need to decide soon

thanks

1 word.... DUBAI, nuff said.

"Oh - the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion?"

I had an opps class. I don't know how many of you saw Gremlins 2, but the prof sounded exactly like the smart gremlin. He kind of looked like him as well. That class was like an anemia for my brain.

UAE: Tax-Free so right off the bat, 60k in UAE is like making 90k in US #2, theres ALOT of perks which do not exist in the US. Ex... I have a cousin who after graduating moved to the UAE to work in Finance... he has 0% interest financing on his car, the bank helped him secure a winning bid for a really sought after property (which flies off the mkt) and his firm got him VERY attractive financing for this as well. In addition to that, theres just a lifestyle you cant really live in the US unless your making a ton of money (maid, chauffeur, etc...)

trade support....is ops