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2/14/12

One of my frat bros who graduated college 2 years ago is married. He married his high school sweetheart last year, at age 23. I went to his wedding, the girl was pretty hot (she was a solid 8), he told me he was the happiest man on the planet at the moment, etc.

One year later, he is constantly talking about how shitty his life is. He despises marriage now. He told me his wife has 'gold digging instinct'.. saying how his level of income isn't satisfactory for her and she wishes that she married a guy that was rich or had a higher paying job. He also mentions how he gets into so many arguments here and there all the time for really petty reasons. He has no freedom. Now, he's considering divorce.

If being married sucks this much, why the fuck do so many people get married? Also why do people ever marry before age 30? To me, that's really stupid.

Comments (342)

Best Response
2/16/12

Yes, it's definitely possible that a woman who comes from an unstable background / set of relationships will gravitate toward a stable guy, regardless of her socioeconomic background. But again -- you see a pair of nice tits, you can't help yourself, you look, and you want some of that action. Same thing with women and money / power / prestige / status.

All of the guys I know married flat or down -- doesn't mean they didn't get good deals, it just wasn't up.

I think the other thing you should consider is that what we are talking about is relative value proposition. And value props can change over time -- if you marry at 30, the average life expectancy today in the US is 78, so call that 50 years until death do you part. A lot can change over that time. I've seen some horrendous divorces where the wife suddenly starts making more money than the husband by a wide margin and then suddenly deems him "unnecessary" whereby she takes the kids, the car and the house. His value proposition eroded, and she decided to trade up (or at least out).

For example, how many high flying bankers got canned in 2008 and then were divorced by their wives?

How many women have gotten fat / unattractive and then been cheated on or divorced or both?

I'm not saying your hypothetical example is impossible. But it's pretty clear to me from a lot of observation and reading that the only marriages that are work are where both partners are enjoying good value on the metrics they seek for value (which are more or less standardized across men and women). To succeed, you should put yourself in the best position to add value. It's much, much harder to do that in your scenario.

There IS an undefinable human quality that gets thrown into the mix, no denying that. People seem to want to assign an 80 / 20 dynamic to it though -- 80% human quality / chemistry / love / whatever, and 20% "reality." I'm saying, at best, you should flip those numbers and it's the opposite: Over time, the reality / biology always comes out, and the 20% takes a back seat. Not a very charming view, but at least you should go in with your eyes open.

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2/14/12

No one changes the day they get married, things just get magnified. Guarantee those traits were there all along. 23 is really young but doesn't sound like a guy like that would have taken a different path even if he had waited.

Not something to just jump into cause you like a person and have a free Saturday. Have to make sure you and this person are on the same page about money, careers, kids, etc. Definitely worth spending a day doing pre-marriage counseling shortly after the engagement.

2/14/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

If being married sucks this much, why the fuck do so many people get married? Also why do people ever marry before age 30? To me, that's really stupid.

Jesus Christ... maybe because every marriage isn't the same exact scenario as your friend and his bitch wife?

*paging Dr. Ed to turn his bad experiences into laws to live by*lol

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough.

"There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.

2/14/12

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh, wait...

Yup.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

2/14/12

Getting marries isn't shit. His wife is shit.

He should divorce her now, before he makes real $$$.

2/14/12

Yeah, what kind of bitch says that she wishes she would have married somebody with more money? I thought we were past that whole "women stay home, men make the money" thing?... Oh nm, that's only when the soulsucking $#@$^%# are satisfied with their income, otherwise it's the guy's fault.

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough.

"There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.

2/14/12

How much does your buddy make? Also does she come from loaded parents?

In reply to wolverine19x89
2/14/12
scottj19x89:

Yeah, what kind of bitch says that she wishes she would have married somebody with more money?

I'm pretty sure I've said that at some point in all three of my marriages.

BTW...this has the makings of an EPIC thread. Just sayin'.

In reply to Edmundo Braverman
2/14/12
Edmundo Braverman:
scottj19x89:

Yeah, what kind of bitch says that she wishes she would have married somebody with more money?

I'm pretty sure I've said that at some point in all three of my marriages.

thinking it is one thing, but to actually say that to your significant other? All I'm going to EXPECT from a girl is that she pulls in enough money to keep herself above the poverty line, of course a lot of people are going to wish that their wife/husband made more money, but to say that shit to the point where your husband/wife is thinking about divorce?

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough.

"There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.

2/14/12

Grabbing popcorn to wait and watch how this thread goes.

Most people do things to add days to their life. I do things to add life to my days.

Browse my blog as a WSO contributing author

2/14/12

The only thing that sucks more than marriage is a divorce. Not the being single part, mind you, (that part kicks ass) its the process of divorce that sucks. Tell him to get out NOW! The less they're married, the less spousal support he will pay. I've gone through divorce and I'm NEVER getting married again.

"If you've never considered the possibility of murder then you've never been divorced!" - Chris Titus

2/14/12

No, your friend just married a whorish bitch.

MM IB -> Corporate Development

2/14/12

Well he went from a frat house to monogamy in a year. What did you expect?

2/14/12

During my senior year of college, 4 of my high school friends each got married. Then, I was like WTF. Now, 3 divorces (soon to be 4) later, LOL.

2/14/12

We've really fucked up marriage in this country (not that other countries don't have it bad as well). People rush into it like three year olds who hear the ice cream truck and then they rip open the wrapper to their overpriced Drumstick and realize it's not exactly what they expected.

Divorce is way too fucking easy. The societies that follow an arranged marriage setup have greater success because people don't expect anything out of it, and thus rarely find themselves wanting divorce. Forced love isn't a horrible proposition, because you'll always be in the best marital position (i.e. love will always grow if you know how to grow it). In this country we expect marriage to be easy, and once it gets hard we don't sit around and fight for it.

Also, just to stir the pot a bit, those who oppose homosexual marriage rights have completely lost their argument that it would ruin the "sanctity of marriage" (Rick Santorum for President!!!11!1!). OP, I wish your friend luck in his marriage, or what he has left of it anyway.

2/14/12

I always say if I ever get married before 30, I might as well give up then and there.

"...Okay you know what? I'll do one!"

2/14/12

This would be posted on Valentine's Day. My first thought when I read the title was, "Paging Dr. Braverman in 3...2...1..."

Metal. Music. Life. www.headofmetal.com

2/14/12

Did you just say frat bros?

In reply to bears1208
2/14/12
bears1208:

How much does your buddy make? Also does she come from loaded parents?

Not sure how much he makes exactly. He works at a small fund. I don't know what he does at that fund. (not sure if he's doing asset management, operations, trading, etc)

However, my guess is he makes at least 55-60k a year.

The girl comes from upper middle class family. Her dad is a dentist. Not rich, but pretty well off.

My frat bro told me that this girl had dated several very rich men before he married her. They dated in high school, but they broke up in college, then got back together after college and got married. When this chick was in college, supposedly she dated some rich guys that come from old money... and she compares other 'rich' men she dated previously to my buddy all the time... making my buddy miserable.

One lesson I learned from my buddy's situation is NEVER marry a girl who had many dating experiences. If the girl fucked a lot of guys and dated a lot of different guys before marriage, chances are she will compare and contrast you to her 'previous lovers'. And, that would suck a lot.

I guess if you are set on marrying someone at some point, it is very important to evaluate if the girl is a marriage material or not. No matter how hot the girl is, if she's not marriage material, never marry that girl.

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
2/14/12

Sexy_Like_Enrique:
if she's not marriage material, never marry that girl.

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough.

"There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.

In reply to Edmundo Braverman
2/14/12
Edmundo Braverman:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh, wait...

Yup.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You are such a tool

In reply to wolverine19x89
2/14/12
scottj19x89:

Yeah, what kind of bitch says that she wishes she would have married somebody with more money? I thought we were past that whole "women stay home, men make the money" thing?... Oh nm, that's only when the soulsucking $#@$^%# are satisfied with their income, otherwise it's the guy's fault.

A lot of women in large cities (note: NYC) are gold diggers to certain extent.

The older men get, the more women evaluate men based on income/ wealth. However, some women cross the line and become huge bitches.

That's why, imo, if you plan on ever marrying at all, it is really important to see if the girl in question is marriage material, or just good for fucking/ brief entertainment.

2/14/12

Is she willing to get fucked in the ass to raise her income?

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

In reply to heister
2/14/12
heister:

Is she willing to get fucked in the ass to raise her income?

probably only if you are rich

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
2/14/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
heister:

Is she willing to get fucked in the ass to raise her income?

probably only if you are rich

I was refering to me paying her money to take my dick in her ass. I dont want to date this bitch.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

In reply to heister
2/14/12
heister:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
heister:

Is she willing to get fucked in the ass to raise her income?

probably only if you are rich

I was refering to me paying her money to take my dick in her ass. I dont want to date this bitch.

This chick is complaining that her husband is making around 60k a year... do you think she will fuck some random guys for 200-300 bucks??

Bitches like this are in for large prize, not small-time supplemental income. Talking about marrying a hot-shot surgeon clearing 500k+ a year, an I-banking VP, or a rich bastard who comes from old money.

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
2/14/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One lesson I learned from my buddy's situation is NEVER marry a girl who had many dating experiences. If the girl fucked a lot of guys and dated a lot of different guys before marriage, chances are she will compare and contrast you to her 'previous lovers'. And, that would suck a lot.

In the wise, wise words of Jimmy Soul:
If you wanna be happy
For the rest of your life,
Never make a pretty woman your wife,
So from my personal point of view,
Get an ugly girl to marry you.

Of course, since this is extreme, too, you're just better off being realistic and evaluate closer, non?

"When I was young I thought that money was the most important thing in life; now that I am old I know that it is."
- Oscar Wilde
"Seriously, psychology is for those with two x chromosomes."
- RagnarDanneskjold

2/14/12
2/14/12

I'm married and my wife is great. I knew her when I was poor and she has been with me the whole way. She doesn't know much about sports but doesn't bitch when I want to watch a game. She can piss me off at times cause she is a woman, but overall I'm stoked that I happened to marry a good one. So I don't think it's marriage itself that's the problem , I think it's who you marry and what it means to you that's the problem.

I was late 20's when I got married, but the premise still stands in my opinion, regardless of the age.

"It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed."

Theodore Roosevelt

In reply to UncleMilty
2/14/12
UncleMilty:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One lesson I learned from my buddy's situation is NEVER marry a girl who had many dating experiences. If the girl fucked a lot of guys and dated a lot of different guys before marriage, chances are she will compare and contrast you to her 'previous lovers'. And, that would suck a lot.

In the wise, wise words of Jimmy Soul:
If you wanna be happy
For the rest of your life,
Never make a pretty woman your wife,
So from my personal point of view,
Get an ugly girl to marry you.

Of course, since this is extreme, too, you're just better off being realistic and evaluate closer, non?

Nah, just get some girl who hasn't experienced life so she can have a quarter life crisis and divorce your ass to be with some college dude or something.

2/14/12

I'm surprised no one asked this yet: what does the wife do for a living?

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
2/15/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One lesson I learned from my buddy's situation is NEVER marry a girl who had many dating experiences. If the girl fucked a lot of guys and dated a lot of different guys before marriage, chances are she will compare and contrast you to her 'previous lovers'. And, that would suck a lot.

Only if you're not rocking her world and making the hundred other guys she's slept with look like lames.

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
2/15/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
heister:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
heister:

Is she willing to get fucked in the ass to raise her income?

probably only if you are rich

I was refering to me paying her money to take my dick in her ass. I dont want to date this bitch.

This chick is complaining that her husband is making around 60k a year... do you think she will fuck some random guys for 200-300 bucks??

Bitches like this are in for large prize, not small-time supplemental income. Talking about marrying a hot-shot surgeon clearing 500k+ a year, an I-banking VP, or a rich bastard who comes from old money.

He's 2 years out of school making 60k? I would be a cunt about it too.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

2/15/12

^ the average income for a grad right out of school is between 30 and 40k. He's doing alright and most people not in IB or consulting will be making, at most, 60-70k at 24. A little bit of perspective goes a long way.

In reply to bears1208
2/15/12
bears1208:

^ the average income for a grad right out of school is between 30 and 40k. He's doing alright and most people not in IB or consulting will be making, at most, 60-70k at 24. A little bit of perspective goes a long way.

But daddy needs new shoes =(

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

In reply to Flake
2/15/12
Flake:
bears1208:

^ the average income for a grad right out of school is between 30 and 40k. He's doing alright and most people not in IB or consulting will be making, at most, 60-70k at 24. A little bit of perspective goes a long way.

But daddy needs new shoes =(

Bitch needs to get a job and buy them herself. Especially if they don't have kids.

In reply to bears1208
2/15/12
bears1208:

^ the average income for a grad right out of school is between 30 and 40k. He's doing alright and most people not in IB or consulting will be making, at most, 60-70k at 24. A little bit of perspective goes a long way.

Also you have to consider COL 60k in the Midwest/South is a lot different then 60k in NYC. Not sure where this guy lives but 60k isn't bad at all in lower COL places.

2/15/12

There are 3 lessons here:
1. Take time to decide if you really want to get married before doing anything stupid
2. If you do want to get married, wait at least 3-5 years after college
3. Don't marry a b%*#@

It sounds like this guy swung and missed on all three of these.

I have been married almost 2 years now and overall, it has been a great experience. Sure she frustrates me sometimes, but I'm a fairly selfish jerk at times so all in she's basically a saint. So far, the good FAR outweigh the bad.

I've actually had a few opportunities to make more $ where I'd have to travel a lot and my wife actually preferred that I not take them (and I didn't). Ultimately, it was my decision, but the money didn't really matter to her.

Real moral of the story - don't marry a b%*#@

2/15/12

Thats a terrible situation...but there are always outliers

XX

In reply to AlsatianCousin
2/15/12
AlsatianCousin:

I'm surprised no one asked this yet: what does the wife do for a living?

She's a journalist. Not sure what kind of journalist she is. (sports journalist?)

In reply to Edmundo Braverman
2/15/12
Edmundo Braverman:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One lesson I learned from my buddy's situation is NEVER marry a girl who had many dating experiences. If the girl fucked a lot of guys and dated a lot of different guys before marriage, chances are she will compare and contrast you to her 'previous lovers'. And, that would suck a lot.

Only if you're not rocking her world and making the hundred other guys she's slept with look like lames.

Imagine marrying a girl that had dated 100 men before you, and dated several very rich men who bought her expensive watches, hand bags, and other gifts. Now, you are married to this girl, and this girl is still living in that materialistic fantasy, while you are working your ass off for that 60-70k salary...

Not to mention, if the girl had way too much dating history or fucking before marriage, that implies her inability to settle down with one dude and she keeps searching for something better. This trait can't be ideal for marriage.

You see what I am saying? This is exactly what is happening to my buddy. And, I hope some of us can learn a lesson or two from this.

In reply to bears1208
2/15/12
bears1208:

^ the average income for a grad right out of school is between 30 and 40k. He's doing alright and most people not in IB or consulting will be making, at most, 60-70k at 24. A little bit of perspective goes a long way.

Some girls, I guess, fantasize about having a luxurious lifestyle I guess... especially for this chick, since she dated some rich guys before marrying this dude, my guess is she wants a husband that can provide a baller lifestyle.

When I saw her, I could tell she was into vanity and luxury. She was carrying brand name hand bags and one time she asked her husband to buy her a brand new luxury sports car.

For marriage, the lesson for us is clear: stay the FUCK away from damaged/ used-up goods: girls who 'gold-digged' before marriage, or fucked a bunch of guys before marriage. Chances are this type of girl will constantly compare you to her previous lovers and if one of her previous men was richer or better than you in some way, she will let you know about it... which would be fucking miserable

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
2/15/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Edmundo Braverman:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One lesson I learned from my buddy's situation is NEVER marry a girl who had many dating experiences. If the girl fucked a lot of guys and dated a lot of different guys before marriage, chances are she will compare and contrast you to her 'previous lovers'. And, that would suck a lot.

Only if you're not rocking her world and making the hundred other guys she's slept with look like lames.

Imagine marrying a girl that had dated 100 men before you, and dated several very rich men who bought her expensive watches, hand bags, and other gifts. Now, you are married to this girl, and this girl is still living in that materialistic fantasy, while you are working your ass off for that 60-70k salary...

Not to mention, if the girl had way too much dating history or fucking before marriage, that implies her inability to settle down with one dude and she keeps searching for something better. This trait can't be ideal for marriage.

You see what I am saying? This is exactly what is happening to my buddy. And, I hope some of us can learn a lesson or two from this.

The lesson is...make more than 70k?

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

2/15/12

The lesson is DONT FUCKING GET MARRIED

Seriously. I'm going through a divorce right now and the whole process will turn any woman into a beast from hell! On top of that, you get these lawyers whispering in their ear about how they need to go after this, go after that, etc. The fact that there is no such thing as a "good" divorce story should tell you that being in a marriage is a bad idea. It's not in human nature to be married - it's a MASSIVE mistake.

In reply to GentlemanJack
2/15/12
GentlemanJack:

The lesson is DONT FUCKING GET MARRIED

Seriously. I'm going through a divorce right now and the whole process will turn any woman into a beast from hell! On top of that, you get these lawyers whispering in their ear about how they need to go after this, go after that, etc. The fact that there is no such thing as a "good" divorce story should tell you that being in a marriage is a bad idea. It's not in human nature to be married - it's a MASSIVE mistake.

Scary shit. I think there needs to be vesting schedule for wives, like with your 401k and deferred comp.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

In reply to GentlemanJack
2/15/12
GentlemanJack:

The lesson is DONT FUCKING GET MARRIED

Seriously. I'm going through a divorce right now and the whole process will turn any woman into a beast from hell! On top of that, you get these lawyers whispering in their ear about how they need to go after this, go after that, etc. The fact that there is no such thing as a "good" divorce story should tell you that being in a marriage is a bad idea. It's not in human nature to be married - it's a MASSIVE mistake.

If it didn't work out for you, then it won't work out for anybody! amirite?

-_-

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough.

"There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.

In reply to Flake
2/15/12
Flake:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Edmundo Braverman:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One lesson I learned from my buddy's situation is NEVER marry a girl who had many dating experiences. If the girl fucked a lot of guys and dated a lot of different guys before marriage, chances are she will compare and contrast you to her 'previous lovers'. And, that would suck a lot.

Only if you're not rocking her world and making the hundred other guys she's slept with look like lames.

Imagine marrying a girl that had dated 100 men before you, and dated several very rich men who bought her expensive watches, hand bags, and other gifts. Now, you are married to this girl, and this girl is still living in that materialistic fantasy, while you are working your ass off for that 60-70k salary...

Not to mention, if the girl had way too much dating history or fucking before marriage, that implies her inability to settle down with one dude and she keeps searching for something better. This trait can't be ideal for marriage.

You see what I am saying? This is exactly what is happening to my buddy. And, I hope some of us can learn a lesson or two from this.

The lesson is...make more than 70k?

For women like this, even if you make 150-200k a year, it may not be enough.

Women like this are fantasizing about luxurious lifestyle, with a bunch of Channel & Louis Vuitton handbags, Porsche 911, expensive vacations, baller mansion, etc etc etc.

Better to stay the fuck away from women with these 'gold digging instinct'. If I meet a girl like this, and she's hot, I would just fuck her and be done with her. No serious relationship or marriage with a girl like that.

In reply to GentlemanJack
2/15/12
GentlemanJack:

The lesson is DONT FUCKING GET MARRIED

Seriously. I'm going through a divorce right now and the whole process will turn any woman into a beast from hell! On top of that, you get these lawyers whispering in their ear about how they need to go after this, go after that, etc. The fact that there is no such thing as a "good" divorce story should tell you that being in a marriage is a bad idea. It's not in human nature to be married - it's a MASSIVE mistake.

This sounds truly awful, man. I am sure I won't get married at least until I am 35 years old. I might want to settle down by then... with a 22 year old fresh college girl

In reply to wolverine19x89
2/15/12
scottj19x89:
GentlemanJack:

The lesson is DONT FUCKING GET MARRIED

Seriously. I'm going through a divorce right now and the whole process will turn any woman into a beast from hell! On top of that, you get these lawyers whispering in their ear about how they need to go after this, go after that, etc. The fact that there is no such thing as a "good" divorce story should tell you that being in a marriage is a bad idea. It's not in human nature to be married - it's a MASSIVE mistake.

If it didn't work out for you, then it won't work out for anybody! amirite?

-_-

OK, then go ahead and tell me a story of a friendly divorce. As soon as you can tell me one, I'll retract my previous post.

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
2/15/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
GentlemanJack:

The lesson is DONT FUCKING GET MARRIED

Seriously. I'm going through a divorce right now and the whole process will turn any woman into a beast from hell! On top of that, you get these lawyers whispering in their ear about how they need to go after this, go after that, etc. The fact that there is no such thing as a "good" divorce story should tell you that being in a marriage is a bad idea. It's not in human nature to be married - it's a MASSIVE mistake.

This sounds truly awful, man. I am sure I won't get married at least until I am 35 years old. I might want to settle down by then... with a 22 year old fresh college girl

I wouldn't do that man. I would find me an older woman that already has her own house and all her own shit squared away. In this scenario, you *might* have to forgo having kids (as I have) but if you care about your sanity, it's the way to go. The last few women I've dated, and my current one, are older, have their shit together and don't care about how much I make or building assets together. I want the woman that already fleeced her ex-husband, I'm not looking to be the ex-husband who gave it all up. When you put that out of the equation, the relationship is much better.

In reply to Flake
2/15/12
Flake:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Edmundo Braverman:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One lesson I learned from my buddy's situation is NEVER marry a girl who had many dating experiences. If the girl fucked a lot of guys and dated a lot of different guys before marriage, chances are she will compare and contrast you to her 'previous lovers'. And, that would suck a lot.

Only if you're not rocking her world and making the hundred other guys she's slept with look like lames.

Imagine marrying a girl that had dated 100 men before you, and dated several very rich men who bought her expensive watches, hand bags, and other gifts. Now, you are married to this girl, and this girl is still living in that materialistic fantasy, while you are working your ass off for that 60-70k salary...

Not to mention, if the girl had way too much dating history or fucking before marriage, that implies her inability to settle down with one dude and she keeps searching for something better. This trait can't be ideal for marriage.

You see what I am saying? This is exactly what is happening to my buddy. And, I hope some of us can learn a lesson or two from this.

The lesson is...make more than 70k?

BOOM. I wouldn't watch two monkeys fuck for 70 grand a year, and she's right to feel like she could've done better if she's the least bit hot.

In reply to GentlemanJack
2/15/12
GentlemanJack:
scottj19x89:
GentlemanJack:

The lesson is DONT FUCKING GET MARRIED

Seriously. I'm going through a divorce right now and the whole process will turn any woman into a beast from hell! On top of that, you get these lawyers whispering in their ear about how they need to go after this, go after that, etc. The fact that there is no such thing as a "good" divorce story should tell you that being in a marriage is a bad idea. It's not in human nature to be married - it's a MASSIVE mistake.

If it didn't work out for you, then it won't work out for anybody! amirite?

-_-

OK, then go ahead and tell me a story of a friendly divorce. As soon as you can tell me one, I'll retract my previous post.

I was talking more about your stance on marriage in general. And I actually do know a couple that's getting divorced and are working it out outside of court, the girl isn't trying to get anything out of it and the guy isn't either. They're just trying to go back to how it was before they met. Though I'm with you with those god damned lawyers. God I hate them, unless they're defending me. They could know that you're the nicest guy in the world and they'll still try to fuck you out of everything you have if your wife has the loot to pay for it.

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough.

"There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.

2/15/12

Personally, I'm a bit jaded after I saw a train wreck of a divorce. It revolves around my ex-gf's family. Her dad had one of the nicest, and sunniest dispositions I've ever seen - a genuine nice guy. Super successful (Big Law Partner + Family Money, 8 figs NW). He was also one of those dudes that genuinely loved his wife, always surprising her and doing spontaneous shit that you only see in chick flicks. He was a total anomaly - at least among the guys I know.

One day his long-term wife sits down with him and gives him the news. She said that over the past 10 years she cheated on him with 4 or 5 different guys and that she was leaving him to be with her current boy toy. She destroyed the family and totally took him to the cleaners. I mean fucking ROBBED him of close to 50%. She didn't have a divorce lawyer, she had a divorce legal team. No joke. The dude still had plenty to live on - but has never been the same mentally. Last I heard he's still a train wreck (can't leave the house and whatnot). His divorce was over 2 years ago too.

I know some of you others guys might think this is an extreme outlier, but for someone who saw it happen - it was pretty damn frightening.

In reply to RagnarDanneskjold
2/15/12
RagnarDanneskjold:

Personally, I'm a bit jaded after I saw a train wreck of a divorce. It revolves around my ex-gf's family. Her dad had one of the nicest, and sunniest dispositions I've ever seen - a genuine nice guy. Super successful (Big Law Partner + Family Money, 8 figs NW). He was also one of those dudes that genuinely loved his wife, always surprising her and doing spontaneous shit that you only see in chick flicks. He was a total anomaly - at least among the guys I know.

One day his long-term wife sits down with him and gives him the news. She said that over the past 10 years she cheated on him with 4 or 5 different guys and that she was leaving him to be with her current boy toy. She destroyed the family and totally took him to the cleaners. I mean fucking ROBBED him of close to 50%. She didn't have a divorce lawyer, she had a divorce legal team. No joke. The dude still had plenty to live on - but has never been the same mentally. Last I heard he's still a train wreck (can't leave the house and whatnot). His divorce was over 2 years ago too.

I know some of you others guys might think this is an extreme outlier, but for someone who saw it happen - it was pretty damn frightening.

You know what's even scarier? This story is VERY common. I'm guessing that with 8 figure NW she didn't work AND it was a long term marriage. So that entitles her to UPFRONT spousal support payments AND legal fees. So that legal team that you mentioned was probably paid by him. Let that sink in a little - YOU pay for the same legal team that is out to get you. That will cause you to lose sleep many, many nights.

The long term marriage sucks too because now she is entitled to spousal support for the rest of her life or until she is married again. Guess which option she's going to choose?

Divorce is the worst fucking thing in the world. I have no doubt your story is true and it happens all over America on a daily basis.

In reply to GentlemanJack
2/15/12
2/15/12

Geez, someone mentioned grabbing the popcorn, but I'm reaching for a bottle of pills...

Metal. Music. Life. www.headofmetal.com

In reply to Edmundo Braverman
2/15/12
Edmundo Braverman:
Flake:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Edmundo Braverman:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One lesson I learned from my buddy's situation is NEVER marry a girl who had many dating experiences. If the girl fucked a lot of guys and dated a lot of different guys before marriage, chances are she will compare and contrast you to her 'previous lovers'. And, that would suck a lot.

Only if you're not rocking her world and making the hundred other guys she's slept with look like lames.

Imagine marrying a girl that had dated 100 men before you, and dated several very rich men who bought her expensive watches, hand bags, and other gifts. Now, you are married to this girl, and this girl is still living in that materialistic fantasy, while you are working your ass off for that 60-70k salary...

Not to mention, if the girl had way too much dating history or fucking before marriage, that implies her inability to settle down with one dude and she keeps searching for something better. This trait can't be ideal for marriage.

You see what I am saying? This is exactly what is happening to my buddy. And, I hope some of us can learn a lesson or two from this.

The lesson is...make more than 70k?

BOOM. I wouldn't watch two monkeys fuck for 70 grand a year, and she's right to feel like she could've done better if she's the least bit hot.

Seriously, Eddie? That's disappointing.

2/15/12

70 grand a year is respectable, I kinda sorta wish that I could look down on people making it, but at the same time I don't.

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough.

"There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.

2/15/12

I'm surprised he didn't know she was that way beforehand. I hear the ideal age for marriage is for men 30. For women, it's 24. Both of them sound too young for it.

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2/15/12

Am I hopeless for wanting to be married?

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In reply to APAE
2/15/12
A Posse Ad Esse:

Am I hopeless for wanting to be married?

I think you already know the answer to that.

Don't worry, i'm sure i'll end up married to some fat bitch who I don't like who yells at me about the fact that I only make 160k and can't pay for her personal shopper, my stupid kids private school, and a trip to fiji.

In reply to wolverine19x89
2/15/12
scottj19x89:

70 grand a year is respectable, I kinda sorta wish that I could look down on people making it, but at the same time I don't.

Why would you kinda sorta want to be a douche bag?

2/15/12

Just cause, like I said, 70k is a respectable amount of income and if I was making so much that I got to the point where I thought otherwise, I'd be makin some phat cash. Though I hope money would never do that to me.

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough.

"There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.

2/15/12
2/15/12

Find the right girl...mine doesn't want kids (and I don't) and has made my life on the road consulting a hell of a lot easier. I get home, the place is in order, I have food, laundry, and she has her own job, covers her expenses (even though I made a fair bit more). Granted I tend to spend my money on her, 'cause what the hell else is money really for if not to be spent, and it makes her happy (though she never expects it).

Granted even after 3 years there is no ring on that finger 'cause I already have enough expenses, but it's a plan.

2/16/12
2/16/12
In reply to RagnarDanneskjold
2/16/12
RagnarDanneskjold:

Personally, I'm a bit jaded after I saw a train wreck of a divorce. It revolves around my ex-gf's family. Her dad had one of the nicest, and sunniest dispositions I've ever seen - a genuine nice guy. Super successful (Big Law Partner + Family Money, 8 figs NW). He was also one of those dudes that genuinely loved his wife, always surprising her and doing spontaneous shit that you only see in chick flicks. He was a total anomaly - at least among the guys I know.

One day his long-term wife sits down with him and gives him the news. She said that over the past 10 years she cheated on him with 4 or 5 different guys and that she was leaving him to be with her current boy toy. She destroyed the family and totally took him to the cleaners. I mean fucking ROBBED him of close to 50%. She didn't have a divorce lawyer, she had a divorce legal team. No joke. The dude still had plenty to live on - but has never been the same mentally. Last I heard he's still a train wreck (can't leave the house and whatnot). His divorce was over 2 years ago too.

I know some of you others guys might think this is an extreme outlier, but for someone who saw it happen - it was pretty damn frightening.

If she confessed to infidelity, how did she get away with getting close to 50% of his assets? Must have been a good legal team ...

I have heard and seen too many scary stories about marriage to ever consider it without getting an ironclad pre-nup. Unfortunately pre-nups aren't enforceable in the UK and hence I will probably never get married. Long term gf knows that, and it causes problems coz she wants to get married eventually and sometimes wonders what the point of the relationship is if I'll never change my mind.

But I refuse to budge. Worked too hard to give someone the cheap option of taking me to the cleaners.

2/16/12

Pre-nups do exist in the UK and there are ways to enforce them. I met with lawyers last month to discuss about it (work related, just in case you wanted to ask). So you might still get married :)

2/16/12
2/16/12

I don't get this.

If I get a divorce, I expect to split stuff down the middle (in fact, because I have kids, I'd be looking to give her more than half being that she's the primary caregiver). Also, she gets the house. I find this incredibly reasonable, I fail to understand how guys get petty and try to hold out on those things.

I also believe in a no-fault divorce - infidelity or otherwise, everyone has a right to be happy. If she's not happy with me she should walk (yeah, and take half).

What I may struggle with is if I'm expected to give her from my future earnings, that would suck balls.

I read something not too long ago about renewable marriage contracts which I think makes a ton of sense. Temporary contracts, either towards procreation or say a limited term (2, 5 years renewable), instead of this legacy "till death do us part" ish which no longer works.

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

2/16/12

Ugh my ex GF had that gold digger instinct too, of course was unwilling to work hard to buy herself nice things or support me at a stressfull job to be able to swing the kind of lifestyle she expected.

Worst part is that I have no idea how she got so used to things being "just-so" because she comes from NOTHING and her mom's house is a shithole I could barely enter without feeling sick. Her dad is a stand up guy and makes his money, but he gets it and doesn't pay for shit for his daughter aside from modest gifts on birthdays and christmas.

The worst part is that I was ever even thinking of tying the knot: "Oh she'll change" "I'll be making more money and things will work out"... that kind of bullshit. My dad opened up my eyes and planted the seed out doubt though, thank god he could see through her shit. Hindsight is 20/20 - she was manipulative and greedy from day 1, I don't know how I missed it.

I'm not saying there aren't good ones out there, I'm saying there are enough bad ones that your chances of making a good match are pretty fucking low. People in general run the gammut from good to bad; I have lots of friends who I would never want to marry if I were a girl (as friends I can call them on their bullshit without starting a fight though, so it works out).

After that relationship, I'm being very cautions. Even for casually dating bitches, I'm sifting them with a fine toothed comb, and the minute they sound like they want shit from me, they get pumped and dumped. And fuck giving them gifts or taking them out to nice meals until I know they can handle it without getting spoiled. At this rate, I'll be lucky if I'm married before 35.. but seriously... as Dr. Braverman said... marraige means never seeing another woman naked. And I love naked women.

In reply to RagnarDanneskjold
2/16/12
RagnarDanneskjold:

Personally, I'm a bit jaded after I saw a train wreck of a divorce. It revolves around my ex-gf's family. Her dad had one of the nicest, and sunniest dispositions I've ever seen - a genuine nice guy. Super successful (Big Law Partner + Family Money, 8 figs NW). He was also one of those dudes that genuinely loved his wife, always surprising her and doing spontaneous shit that you only see in chick flicks. He was a total anomaly - at least among the guys I know.

One day his long-term wife sits down with him and gives him the news. She said that over the past 10 years she cheated on him with 4 or 5 different guys and that she was leaving him to be with her current boy toy. She destroyed the family and totally took him to the cleaners. I mean fucking ROBBED him of close to 50%. She didn't have a divorce lawyer, she had a divorce legal team. No joke. The dude still had plenty to live on - but has never been the same mentally. Last I heard he's still a train wreck (can't leave the house and whatnot). His divorce was over 2 years ago too.

I know some of you others guys might think this is an extreme outlier, but for someone who saw it happen - it was pretty damn frightening.

Is this why you left the ex-gf? You knew she will only inherit half of the 8 figs NW. =P

TraderDaily:

I'm surprised he didn't know she was that way beforehand. I hear the ideal age for marriage is for men 30. For women, it's 24. Both of them sound too young for it.

24!!!! =O

2/16/12

$70k and single= a decent life (outside NYC housing)
$70k and married= might as well be working at papa johns (at least you get tips and can take home a free pizza)

In reply to Anomanderis
2/16/12
Anomanderis:

I don't get this.

If I get a divorce, I expect to split stuff down the middle (in fact, because I have kids, I'd be looking to give her more than half being that she's the primary caregiver). Also, she gets the house. I find this incredibly reasonable, I fail to understand how guys get petty and try to hold out on those things.

I also believe in a no-fault divorce - infidelity or otherwise, everyone has a right to be happy. If she's not happy with me she should walk (yeah, and take half).

What I may struggle with is if I'm expected to give her from my future earnings, that would suck balls.

I read something not too long ago about renewable marriage contracts which I think makes a ton of sense. Temporary contracts, either towards procreation or say a limited term (2, 5 years renewable), instead of this legacy "till death do us part" ish which no longer works.

I know this is going to sound bad any way I say it, but I don't mean it offensively - you are incredibly naive. Allow me to clue you in.

1 - It's not about splitting stuff down the middle, it's about keeping each other in the lifestyle that you create for yourself. What does that mean? If you have a wife that stays at home with the kids, that means that the divorce has to put her in a place where she can live on her own with the kids and still not work. So that means you would have to pay for her to have the same things she had before - the house would only be the beginning. You would have to pay for her cars, clothes, food, household expenses, etc.

2 - There are "short term" and "long term" marriages. It varies by state, but a long term marriage is usually over ten years. That means that if you are in a long term marriage she will get spousal support from you FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE. Keep in mind that this is just spousal support . . . you'll be writing a second check for the child support. In any case, you are responsible for spousal support for at least half the length of the marriage. So let's say you're married for 8 years - you'll be paying spousal support for a minimum of 4 years, no less than that and it may be more. So you can kiss a good part of your future earnings goodbye.

3 - "But she has money!" you'll say. "She doesn't need spousal support!". That doesn't matter. ANY time there is a disparity in income you will pay spousal support. She could make 200K/year and you could make 250K/year and you'll still owe her money. In fact, if the disparity is large enough, you'll pay her that AND her lawyer fees. As I said before in this thread - let that feeling sink in for a bit . . . YOU will pay HER to hire lawyers to come after YOU. And that's on top of fees for your own lawyer. I had a "cheap" divorce - my lawyer fees are going to be in the 8K range and I'm in a non-metro area. In a long term marriage with kids in the picture, most lawyers wouldn't even consider you for anything less than 10K upfront, total fees are variable - in a metro area, no one would consider taking you on for less than 20K upfront.

So you want to know why divorce sucks? Here's how it all unravels: You're at work one day and the secretary tells you that there's a Sheriff to see you. He hands you a stack of papers, known as a 30-day subpoena, that you sign for. A day later, the same Sheriff shows up with notice of hearing that's next week for what's known as temporary spousal support and lawyer fees hearing. So now you have to scramble to retain a lawyer and he wants cash money upfront. You'll also have to make a first appearance fee with the court of about $500. From there you go to the hearing, the wife's lawyer makes her case for no income and no money for fees. The court will ask for your pay stubs and then the judge hands down an order for temporary support and lawyer fees. Now you're responsible for your lawyer, her lawyer AND you have to give her cash-money every month. Don't comply and they will garnish your very next paycheck. Everything in this paragraph goes down in the span of about 10 days and your world is turned upside down and you're in hell for the next 3 years.

Get the picture?

2/16/12

Wow this thread is depressing me...dated my gf for nearly four years and I have doubts about marrying her. She's a great girl and has a good career as an accountant, but her bitchiness raises a red flag for me. She ALWAYS has a problem with something I do, it bugs the hell out of me. We always fight over something small that I did wrong, I don't know if I can deal with it for the rest of my life. Yikes!!!

2/16/12

This thread is incredibly depressing, not because it makes me worry about my prospects of marriage, but because I'm not looking forward to working with people who put a $ number on everything and everyone they associate with. Even in jest, it's a bit off-putting.

Hopefully WSO is just a small, tiny subset of the people who are actually in these industries (as I'm sure it is). Someone tell me I'm right in that line of thinking.

"An intellectual is a man who takes more words than necessary to tell more than he knows."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

Check out my blog!

In reply to DonVon
2/16/12
Vontropnats:

This thread is incredibly depressing, not because it makes me worry about my prospects of marriage, but because I'm not looking forward to working with people who put a $ number on everything and everyone they associate with. Even in jest, it's a bit off-putting.

Hopefully WSO is just a small, tiny subset of the people who are actually in these industries (as I'm sure it is). Someone tell me I'm right in that line of thinking.

You're just young and lacking real world experience. You'll join our line of thinking soon enough :)

In reply to GentlemanJack
2/16/12
GentlemanJack:
Vontropnats:

This thread is incredibly depressing, not because it makes me worry about my prospects of marriage, but because I'm not looking forward to working with people who put a $ number on everything and everyone they associate with. Even in jest, it's a bit off-putting.

Hopefully WSO is just a small, tiny subset of the people who are actually in these industries (as I'm sure it is). Someone tell me I'm right in that line of thinking.

You're just young and lacking real world experience. You'll join our line of thinking soon enough :)

Thanks...I think?

"An intellectual is a man who takes more words than necessary to tell more than he knows."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

Check out my blog!

In reply to DonVon
2/16/12
Vontropnats:
GentlemanJack:
Vontropnats:

This thread is incredibly depressing, not because it makes me worry about my prospects of marriage, but because I'm not looking forward to working with people who put a $ number on everything and everyone they associate with. Even in jest, it's a bit off-putting.

Hopefully WSO is just a small, tiny subset of the people who are actually in these industries (as I'm sure it is). Someone tell me I'm right in that line of thinking.

You're just young and lacking real world experience. You'll join our line of thinking soon enough :)

Thanks...I think?

I think everyone's views change from that post-college period to mid 30s (ish). You start making your way in the world, you start writing more checks to the IRS, you start reading more current events, you start making new (older) friends. I wouldn't expect you to comprehend this now, but give it some time and you'll see. The closest way I can have you understand it is with the old saying "When I was younger I thought money was the most important thing there is. Now that I'm older, I know it is".

2/16/12

Now I've never been married, nor do I plan to be anytime soon, so take this with a grain of salt from someone who hasn't experienced anything firsthand yet.

Why not just find a better girl to date/marry? Well-off/wealthy, attractive, comes from a good family, good upbringing, good values, good education, good job, motivated, doesn't care much about material goods. I almost automatically write off any women who carry lots of expensive handbags or shop with their dad's money (when she is supposed to support herself with a job).

Seriously though, why not find a girl that is smarter and better educated than you are, comes from a better background, or even has a better job? That way maybe you won't feel like you're being ripped off by her because she adds just as much, if not more, to the marriage as you do.

I hear all this talk of "gold-digging" tendencies in wives, but I feel like this is something that is easy to figure out ahead of time. Does she get pissed when you don't buy her shiny things? Does she expect you to take her on lavish vacations? Does she talk about money at all, really? Don't marry or date her. I feel like if a girl has grown up with some money (excluding if her family is obnoxious "new money" living in a McMansion somewhere), then she doesn't really feel the need for conspicuous consumption quite as much and is just happy with someone who is smart, somewhat attractive, and who she gets along with.

I guess maybe this is referred to as "marrying up."

Maybe I'm just being naive - I'm sure Eddie would think so.

Hi, Eric Stratton, rush chairman, damn glad to meet you.

In reply to Otter.
2/16/12
Otter.:

Now I've never been married, nor do I plan to be anytime soon, so take this with a grain of salt from someone who hasn't experienced anything firsthand yet.

Why not just find a better girl to date/marry? Well-off/wealthy, attractive, comes from a good family, good upbringing, good values, good education, good job, motivated, doesn't care much about material goods. I almost automatically write off any women who carry lots of expensive handbags or shop with their dad's money (when she is supposed to support herself with a job).

Seriously though, why not find a girl that is smarter and better educated than you are, comes from a better background, or even has a better job? That way maybe you won't feel like you're being ripped off by her because she adds just as much, if not more, to the marriage as you do.

I hear all this talk of "gold-digging" tendencies in wives, but I feel like this is something that is easy to figure out ahead of time. Does she get pissed when you don't buy her shiny things? Does she expect you to take her on lavish vacations? Does she talk about money at all, really? Don't marry or date her. I feel like if a girl has grown up with some money (excluding if her family is obnoxious "new money" living in a McMansion somewhere), then she doesn't really feel the need for conspicuous consumption quite as much and is just happy with someone who is smart, somewhat attractive, and who she gets along with.

I guess maybe this is referred to as "marrying up."

Maybe I'm just being naive - I'm sure Eddie would think so.

You're on the right track with your thinking. Here's what I would add:

1 - Debt load. How much total debt she has is a pretty good sign of a lot of things

2 - FICO score. Same as above.

3 - Relationship with her dad. Yeah, I know this is psycho-babble BS but I also happen to think it plays a role.

Personally, I'm never getting married again. If by some chance it should happen again, right now I'm still only dating older women that have their shit together. You need to find a woman that has already fleeced an ex-husband - don't be the the ex-husband being fleeced. All my current ladies already have their own houses, their own cars, their own "shiny things" as you put it. That type of woman is going to have a lot more realistic expectations from a marriage.

In reply to GentlemanJack
2/16/12
GentlemanJack:
Anomanderis:

I don't get this.

If I get a divorce, I expect to split stuff down the middle (in fact, because I have kids, I'd be looking to give her more than half being that she's the primary caregiver). Also, she gets the house. I find this incredibly reasonable, I fail to understand how guys get petty and try to hold out on those things.

I also believe in a no-fault divorce - infidelity or otherwise, everyone has a right to be happy. If she's not happy with me she should walk (yeah, and take half).

What I may struggle with is if I'm expected to give her from my future earnings, that would suck balls.

I read something not too long ago about renewable marriage contracts which I think makes a ton of sense. Temporary contracts, either towards procreation or say a limited term (2, 5 years renewable), instead of this legacy "till death do us part" ish which no longer works.

I know this is going to sound bad any way I say it, but I don't mean it offensively - you are incredibly naive. Allow me to clue you in.

1 - It's not about splitting stuff down the middle, it's about keeping each other in the lifestyle that you create for yourself. What does that mean? If you have a wife that stays at home with the kids, that means that the divorce has to put her in a place where she can live on her own with the kids and still not work. So that means you would have to pay for her to have the same things she had before - the house would only be the beginning. You would have to pay for her cars, clothes, food, household expenses, etc.

2 - There are "short term" and "long term" marriages. It varies by state, but a long term marriage is usually over ten years. That means that if you are in a long term marriage she will get spousal support from you FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE. Keep in mind that this is just spousal support . . . you'll be writing a second check for the child support. In any case, you are responsible for spousal support for at least half the length of the marriage. So let's say you're married for 8 years - you'll be paying spousal support for a minimum of 4 years, no less than that and it may be more. So you can kiss a good part of your future earnings goodbye.

3 - "But she has money!" you'll say. "She doesn't need spousal support!". That doesn't matter. ANY time there is a disparity in income you will pay spousal support. She could make 200K/year and you could make 250K/year and you'll still owe her money. In fact, if the disparity is large enough, you'll pay her that AND her lawyer fees. As I said before in this thread - let that feeling sink in for a bit . . . YOU will pay HER to hire lawyers to come after YOU. And that's on top of fees for your own lawyer. I had a "cheap" divorce - my lawyer fees are going to be in the 8K range and I'm in a non-metro area. In a long term marriage with kids in the picture, most lawyers wouldn't even consider you for anything less than 10K upfront, total fees are variable - in a metro area, no one would consider taking you on for less than 20K upfront.

So you want to know why divorce sucks? Here's how it all unravels: You're at work one day and the secretary tells you that there's a Sheriff to see you. He hands you a stack of papers, known as a 30-day subpoena, that you sign for. A day later, the same Sheriff shows up with notice of hearing that's next week for what's known as temporary spousal support and lawyer fees hearing. So now you have to scramble to retain a lawyer and he wants cash money upfront. You'll also have to make a first appearance fee with the court of about $500. From there you go to the hearing, the wife's lawyer makes her case for no income and no money for fees. The court will ask for your pay stubs and then the judge hands down an order for temporary support and lawyer fees. Now you're responsible for your lawyer, her lawyer AND you have to give her cash-money every month. Don't comply and they will garnish your very next paycheck. Everything in this paragraph goes down in the span of about 10 days and your world is turned upside down and you're in hell for the next 3 years.

Get the picture?

Who maintains the lifestyle you were used to? i.e. getting food made, getting the house cleaned, having sex. If you don't get to keep those things, why should she get to keep all of her luxuries?

-MBP

In reply to GentlemanJack
2/16/12
GentlemanJack:

3 - Relationship with her dad. Yeah, I know this is psycho-babble BS but I also happen to think it plays a role.

This is a great point. I actually seriously consider things like - what's her relationship with her dad, does her family has strong moral values (meaning "are they not fucking crazy"), is her mom sane, does she get along with most/all of my friends, etc.

I have zero interest in ever being with a girl from a broken home. Selfish or heartless, maybe, but this is one of the few rules I do not break. Makes life much simpler.

Hi, Eric Stratton, rush chairman, damn glad to meet you.

In reply to damngringo
2/16/12
damngringo:

Pre-nups do exist in the UK and there are ways to enforce them. I met with lawyers last month to discuss about it (work related, just in case you wanted to ask). So you might still get married :)

Really? Do tell ...

In reply to manbearpig
2/16/12
manbearpig:

Who maintains the lifestyle you were used to? i.e. getting food made, getting the house cleaned, having sex. If you don't get to keep those things, why should she get to keep all of her luxuries?

You are making a very sane & reasonable argument for this. The only problem is that divorces DO NOT involve sanity or reason in any way, shape or form :). Trust me, it's just about the worst thing in the world, I'm NEVER going through that again.

In reply to Otter.
2/16/12
Otter.:

Now I've never been married, nor do I plan to be anytime soon, so take this with a grain of salt from someone who hasn't experienced anything firsthand yet.

Why not just find a better girl to date/marry? Well-off/wealthy, attractive, comes from a good family, good upbringing, good values, good education, good job, motivated, doesn't care much about material goods. I almost automatically write off any women who carry lots of expensive handbags or shop with their dad's money (when she is supposed to support herself with a job).

Seriously though, why not find a girl that is smarter and better educated than you are, comes from a better background, or even has a better job? That way maybe you won't feel like you're being ripped off by her because she adds just as much, if not more, to the marriage as you do.

I hear all this talk of "gold-digging" tendencies in wives, but I feel like this is something that is easy to figure out ahead of time. Does she get pissed when you don't buy her shiny things? Does she expect you to take her on lavish vacations? Does she talk about money at all, really? Don't marry or date her. I feel like if a girl has grown up with some money (excluding if her family is obnoxious "new money" living in a McMansion somewhere), then she doesn't really feel the need for conspicuous consumption quite as much and is just happy with someone who is smart, somewhat attractive, and who she gets along with.

I guess maybe this is referred to as "marrying up."

Maybe I'm just being naive - I'm sure Eddie would think so.

I was trying so hard not to respond to this thread, but I can't help myself. I'm quoting Otter but not picking on him with my response.

This is a rare instance where I'm going to stand up for the women being bashed on this thread. That's a big statement for someone who firmly supports the Men's Rights Movement (look it up if you don't know what that is).

Guys, in practical terms, there is no such thing as gold digging. The biological fact of the matter is that women are wired to prefer men who have high social status and high earnings power. It's true that some women are tacky, soulless bitches, I won't argue with that. It's true that the laws are decidedly anti-male and that women exploit those laws. But you can't fault women for preferring men with money, and for trying to take some of that money. It's like saying that men are shallow because we love women with big tits, small waists, pouty lips, and beautiful skin, and want to reproduce with them (or at least go through the motions). NO SHIT. We're made that way. We can't help it. And neither can women help themselves in pursuing their own interests.

The fact is, that mother nature doesn't trust either men or women to make smart decisions. So we're wired to make EFFECTIVE decisions -- our preferences are automatic. In other words, our biology is not designed to make us HAPPY, but to ensure the SURVIVAL of the species. That's it. And you get a lot of crazy, bat shit behavior coming out of that dynamic, especially when society tries to enforces its rules on top of the underlying biology, but it is what it is. We're here to pass on our genes. Not to say there aren't hundreds of other worthwhile pursuits in life, but that's the bottom line.

What I am saying is that men and women have contrary, naturally opposing strategies for mating. Men want many women with minimum commitment to any of them. Women want one man, the best they can find. And they want maximum material and emotional investment from that man. And in the way that men are insatiable for sex, women are insatiable for those investments -- more cuddle time, more "bonding talks", more long walks on the beach, and yes, more material stuff (there is a method to the madness -- women are not completely insane). This is why women are more sensitive to "emotional cheating" then men are.

You can't fight it, it is what it is. So there's no point trying to throw women under the bus and bash them about it. They can't help it. But you can protect yourself. Getting married is a really, really bad idea for men because the odds and the laws are completely slanted against us. Our judicial system is absolutely unfair in every way when it comes to supporting men getting divorced.

So if you're going to do it, do it with a margin of safety (but better yet don't do it at all). Two ways to do that: First way is to marry a woman who has fewer options than you (sorry boys, that rules out super models!). It's a relative value play, where the woman is more likely to stay with you and be loyal because you are the best she can get. That necessarily means probably doing less well in mate selection than you otherwise could. I'm not going to say marry an ugly chick, but you get the idea. Note that around 70% of divorces are initiated by the woman (don't be that guy).

Second way would be to absolutely knock the cover off the ball and be as successful as possible, thereby expanding your choice of women, and then go in with an iron clad prenup while shielding your assets. It's not the easiest approach, but you will still have leverage if she can't get to your assets and she can't replace you (if you're worth 20 million bucks for example, who else is she going to trade up to? There's always someone better, but functionally, her options are very limited at that point).

The worst strategy is go in with the "hope and change mindset" (WE KNOW THAT SHIT DOES NOT WORK, DON'T DO IT!).

So to Otter's point, you are putting yourself in the absolute worst position you can by trying to marry up as a man. Not only are you likely to be unsuccessful in the pursuit (because the woman will probably balk), but you have a very high chance of being miserable for the rest of your life if you do pull it off. Don't even think about it.

If you doubt any of this, stroll over to your good friend wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergamy

"[Hypergamy] is often used more specifically in reference to a perceived tendency among human cultures for females to seek or be encouraged to pursue male suitors that are higher status than themselves, which often manifests itself as being attracted to men who are comparatively older, wealthier or otherwise more privileged than themselves."

You can deny reality, but only at your own peril. If you look around and observe how things actually work in life, you know this is true.

Last point: I know there is going to be some whiny man-bitch on here talking about how sacrasanct society's laws and expectations are, blah, blah. You know what? If what society wanted for men actually worked FOR MEN, we wouldn't be having this discussion. There's nothing else to say about that.

In reply to GentlemanJack
2/16/12
GentlemanJack:
Anomanderis:

I don't get this.

If I get a divorce, I expect to split stuff down the middle (in fact, because I have kids, I'd be looking to give her more than half being that she's the primary caregiver). Also, she gets the house. I find this incredibly reasonable, I fail to understand how guys get petty and try to hold out on those things.

I also believe in a no-fault divorce - infidelity or otherwise, everyone has a right to be happy. If she's not happy with me she should walk (yeah, and take half).

What I may struggle with is if I'm expected to give her from my future earnings, that would suck balls.

I read something not too long ago about renewable marriage contracts which I think makes a ton of sense. Temporary contracts, either towards procreation or say a limited term (2, 5 years renewable), instead of this legacy "till death do us part" ish which no longer works.

I know this is going to sound bad any way I say it, but I don't mean it offensively - you are incredibly naive. Allow me to clue you in.

1 - It's not about splitting stuff down the middle, it's about keeping each other in the lifestyle that you create for yourself. What does that mean? If you have a wife that stays at home with the kids, that means that the divorce has to put her in a place where she can live on her own with the kids and still not work. So that means you would have to pay for her to have the same things she had before - the house would only be the beginning. You would have to pay for her cars, clothes, food, household expenses, etc.

2 - There are "short term" and "long term" marriages. It varies by state, but a long term marriage is usually over ten years. That means that if you are in a long term marriage she will get spousal support from you FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE. Keep in mind that this is just spousal support . . . you'll be writing a second check for the child support. In any case, you are responsible for spousal support for at least half the length of the marriage. So let's say you're married for 8 years - you'll be paying spousal support for a minimum of 4 years, no less than that and it may be more. So you can kiss a good part of your future earnings goodbye.

3 - "But she has money!" you'll say. "She doesn't need spousal support!". That doesn't matter. ANY time there is a disparity in income you will pay spousal support. She could make 200K/year and you could make 250K/year and you'll still owe her money. In fact, if the disparity is large enough, you'll pay her that AND her lawyer fees. As I said before in this thread - let that feeling sink in for a bit . . . YOU will pay HER to hire lawyers to come after YOU. And that's on top of fees for your own lawyer. I had a "cheap" divorce - my lawyer fees are going to be in the 8K range and I'm in a non-metro area. In a long term marriage with kids in the picture, most lawyers wouldn't even consider you for anything less than 10K upfront, total fees are variable - in a metro area, no one would consider taking you on for less than 20K upfront.

So you want to know why divorce sucks? Here's how it all unravels: You're at work one day and the secretary tells you that there's a Sheriff to see you. He hands you a stack of papers, known as a 30-day subpoena, that you sign for. A day later, the same Sheriff shows up with notice of hearing that's next week for what's known as temporary spousal support and lawyer fees hearing. So now you have to scramble to retain a lawyer and he wants cash money upfront. You'll also have to make a first appearance fee with the court of about $500. From there you go to the hearing, the wife's lawyer makes her case for no income and no money for fees. The court will ask for your pay stubs and then the judge hands down an order for temporary support and lawyer fees. Now you're responsible for your lawyer, her lawyer AND you have to give her cash-money every month. Don't comply and they will garnish your very next paycheck. Everything in this paragraph goes down in the span of about 10 days and your world is turned upside down and you're in hell for the next 3 years.

Get the picture?

Calm down.

I've actually been separated before (and it's still up in the air whether or not we will get divorced, but we're not there yet). What you refer to is a bad situation, and aggressive and destructive divorce. In my scenario it played out rather differently. But let's have a look at your powerful presentation.

1: Works both ways. You pay her, she pays you if she earns more.

2: In the tri-state area, you pay diddly if she worked and you've been married for less than two years. 10 years? You're in your mid-30s, how have you been through a 10 year long marriage?

3:Again - it flies both ways. If she makes 250 and you make 200, she pays you. And if she makes 250 grand anually, NO judge will make you pay her legal fees, unless you're some sort of multi-millonaire.

I didn't even use a lawyer, we used a mediator. But then, we had both had enough (for that period), so it wasn't one of those abrasive, nasty divorces, it was a trial separation.

In conclusion, no, it's not naivety mate, your counter argument was a classic straw man. You created a worst case situation and then proceeded to knock it down. That was in no way an argument against my point.

I have friends from Uni who got divorced. Some of them had even done quite well. None of them got this disastrous treatment that you've highlighted, not even the one who was caught his missus's bestie in their "matrimonial bedroom".

Here in the tri-state area, legal fees are considered during the divorce settlement - as is debt. Unless you're one of those alpha males who insists that his wife not work, it shouldn't get that bad.

Point of wisdom - do you know the professionals that least uses lawyers for their divorces? Yep. Lawyers. They do all they can to make sure that it doesn't go to court.

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

In reply to Anomanderis
2/16/12
Anomanderis:

Calm down.

I've actually been separated before (and it's still up in the air whether or not we will get divorced, but we're not there yet). What you refer to is a bad situation, and aggressive and destructive divorce. In my scenario it played out rather differently. But let's have a look at your powerful presentation.

1: Works both ways. You pay her, she pays you if she earns more.

2: In the tri-state area, you pay diddly if she worked and you've been married for less than two years. 10 years? You're in your mid-30s, how have you been through a 10 year long marriage?

3:Again - it flies both ways. If she makes 250 and you make 200, she pays you. And if she makes 250 grand anually, NO judge will make you pay her legal fees, unless you're some sort of multi-millonaire.

I didn't even use a lawyer, we used a mediator. But then, we had both had enough (for that period), so it wasn't one of those abrasive, nasty divorces, it was a trial separation.

In conclusion, no, it's not naivety mate, your counter argument was a classic straw man. You created a worst case situation and then proceeded to knock it down. That was in no way an argument against my point.

I have friends from Uni who got divorced. Some of them had even done quite well. None of them got this disastrous treatment that you've highlighted, not even the one who was caught his missus's bestie in their "matrimonial bedroom".

Here in the tri-state area, legal fees are considered during the divorce settlement - as is debt. Unless you're one of those alpha males who insists that his wife not work, it shouldn't get that bad.

Point of wisdom - do you know the professionals that least uses lawyers for their divorces? Yep. Lawyers. They do all they can to make sure that it doesn't go to court.

Once again, you are being naive. Even in a divorce that does not go to court you would still need to hire a lawyer. You can only use a mediator if it's a short term marriage with no real property (ie a home). Of course, you can mediate in that scenario - it's a couple of kids with no assets.

You're way off on #1 - it's not about payments or 50/50 its about lifestyle. The court takes that into consideration and basically tries to make her whole, irregardless of who pays it or how she got there (ie you).

There is no way you're right on #2 - that would assume that the marriage did not co-mingle funds in any way - ie you lived within the means of your salary and she lived within the means of her salary and yet you both lived in the same home. No judge would grant that.

#3 is clearly wrong (yet again, you're 0-3 kiddo). If its a large divorce with kids, she will seek lawyer fees and probably get them. Also these fees can be requested at any time. She may not go for it initially, but she can always make the request in the future.

You try to demonstrate experience but fail miserably since you haven't been divorced. A separation is not a divorce kiddo. The "fun stuff" hasn't begun for you yet. Again, you're incredibly naive if you think there's anything friendly or fair about it.

In reply to GentlemanJack
2/16/12
GentlemanJack:
Anomanderis:

Calm down.

I've actually been separated before (and it's still up in the air whether or not we will get divorced, but we're not there yet). What you refer to is a bad situation, and aggressive and destructive divorce. In my scenario it played out rather differently. But let's have a look at your powerful presentation.

1: Works both ways. You pay her, she pays you if she earns more.

2: In the tri-state area, you pay diddly if she worked and you've been married for less than two years. 10 years? You're in your mid-30s, how have you been through a 10 year long marriage?

3:Again - it flies both ways. If she makes 250 and you make 200, she pays you. And if she makes 250 grand anually, NO judge will make you pay her legal fees, unless you're some sort of multi-millonaire.

I didn't even use a lawyer, we used a mediator. But then, we had both had enough (for that period), so it wasn't one of those abrasive, nasty divorces, it was a trial separation.

In conclusion, no, it's not naivety mate, your counter argument was a classic straw man. You created a worst case situation and then proceeded to knock it down. That was in no way an argument against my point.

I have friends from Uni who got divorced. Some of them had even done quite well. None of them got this disastrous treatment that you've highlighted, not even the one who was caught his missus's bestie in their "matrimonial bedroom".

Here in the tri-state area, legal fees are considered during the divorce settlement - as is debt. Unless you're one of those alpha males who insists that his wife not work, it shouldn't get that bad.

Point of wisdom - do you know the professionals that least uses lawyers for their divorces? Yep. Lawyers. They do all they can to make sure that it doesn't go to court.

Once again, you are being naive. Even in a divorce that does not go to court you would still need to hire a lawyer. You can only use a mediator if it's a short term marriage with no real property (ie a home). Of course, you can mediate in that scenario - it's a couple of kids with no assets.

You're way off on #1 - it's not about payments or 50/50 its about lifestyle. The court takes that into consideration and basically tries to make her whole, irregardless of who pays it or how she got there (ie you).

There is no way you're right on #2 - that would assume that the marriage did not co-mingle funds in any way - ie you lived within the means of your salary and she lived within the means of her salary and yet you both lived in the same home. No judge would grant that.

#3 is clearly wrong (yet again, you're 0-3 kiddo). If its a large divorce with kids, she will seek lawyer fees and probably get them. Also these fees can be requested at any time. She may not go for it initially, but she can always make the request in the future.

You try to demonstrate experience but fail miserably since you haven't been divorced. A separation is not a divorce kiddo. The "fun stuff" hasn't begun for you yet. Again, you're incredibly naive if you think there's anything friendly or fair about it.

MY DIVORCE WAS COOLER THAN YOUR DIVORCE!!!!!!!! Neener

-MBP

In reply to manbearpig
2/16/12
manbearpig:

MY DIVORCE WAS COOLER THAN YOUR DIVORCE!!!!!!!! Neener

He actually hasn't been divorced yet. And yeah, there's nothing cool about it - for some reason the kid just doesn't seem to understand that.

2/16/12

if i got served with divorce papers at work i would go scorched earth on that ass
fuck that shit

In reply to Ravenous
2/16/12
Ravenous:

So to Otter's point, you are putting yourself in the absolute worst position you can by trying to marry up as a man. Not only are you likely to be unsuccessful in the pursuit (because the woman will probably balk), but you have a very high chance of being miserable for the rest of your life if you do pull it off. Don't even think about it.

If you doubt any of this, stroll over to your good friend wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergamy

"[Hypergamy] is often used more specifically in reference to a perceived tendency among human cultures for females to seek or be encouraged to pursue male suitors that are higher status than themselves, which often manifests itself as being attracted to men who are comparatively older, wealthier or otherwise more privileged than themselves."

Appreciate the reply, but I am curious about this point. Why would you be miserable if you pull it off?

Also, to clarify, I don't mean "marry up" in terms of a 5'4" obese pimply fat kid marrying a super model. Of course I want to be with an attractive girl (who doesn't) but I don't care so much about someone's cup size or whether or not they look like they belong in Victoria's Secret.

I guess what I mean is - marry a girl that comes from a background where she has not had to spend much time worrying about money. That way, she will not obsess over wanting shiny things if shiny things are not that big of a deal to her. If all the jewelery she wears is passed down from her great-grandmother, then you don't need to buy her stuff from TIffany's all the time. Bam, problem solved.

Hi, Eric Stratton, rush chairman, damn glad to meet you.

In reply to GentlemanJack
2/16/12
GentlemanJack:
Anomanderis:

Calm down.

I've actually been separated before (and it's still up in the air whether or not we will get divorced, but we're not there yet). What you refer to is a bad situation, and aggressive and destructive divorce. In my scenario it played out rather differently. But let's have a look at your powerful presentation.

1: Works both ways. You pay her, she pays you if she earns more.

2: In the tri-state area, you pay diddly if she worked and you've been married for less than two years. 10 years? You're in your mid-30s, how have you been through a 10 year long marriage?

3:Again - it flies both ways. If she makes 250 and you make 200, she pays you. And if she makes 250 grand anually, NO judge will make you pay her legal fees, unless you're some sort of multi-millonaire.

I didn't even use a lawyer, we used a mediator. But then, we had both had enough (for that period), so it wasn't one of those abrasive, nasty divorces, it was a trial separation.

In conclusion, no, it's not naivety mate, your counter argument was a classic straw man. You created a worst case situation and then proceeded to knock it down. That was in no way an argument against my point.

I have friends from Uni who got divorced. Some of them had even done quite well. None of them got this disastrous treatment that you've highlighted, not even the one who was caught his missus's bestie in their "matrimonial bedroom".

Here in the tri-state area, legal fees are considered during the divorce settlement - as is debt. Unless you're one of those alpha males who insists that his wife not work, it shouldn't get that bad.

Point of wisdom - do you know the professionals that least uses lawyers for their divorces? Yep. Lawyers. They do all they can to make sure that it doesn't go to court.

Once again, you are being naive. Even in a divorce that does not go to court you would still need to hire a lawyer. You can only use a mediator if it's a short term marriage with no real property (ie a home). Of course, you can mediate in that scenario - it's a couple of kids with no assets.

You're way off on #1 - it's not about payments or 50/50 its about lifestyle. The court takes that into consideration and basically tries to make her whole, irregardless of who pays it or how she got there (ie you).

There is no way you're right on #2 - that would assume that the marriage did not co-mingle funds in any way - ie you lived within the means of your salary and she lived within the means of her salary and yet you both lived in the same home. No judge would grant that.

#3 is clearly wrong (yet again, you're 0-3 kiddo). If its a large divorce with kids, she will seek lawyer fees and probably get them. Also these fees can be requested at any time. She may not go for it initially, but she can always make the request in the future.

You try to demonstrate experience but fail miserably since you haven't been divorced. A separation is not a divorce kiddo. The "fun stuff" hasn't begun for you yet. Again, you're incredibly naive if you think there's anything friendly or fair about it.

Funniest thing is that you keep calling me kiddo. At best we're the same age. (0-1 kiddo)

Point 1: Maintaining lifestyle only comes into play if you're by far wealthier than she is. If you both earn around the same, then she can maintain her lifestyle herself. (0-2 kiddo)

Point 2: - what on earth does this have to do with co-mingling finances? It's just 2 years. Everyone goes their way, not enough time has been invested in the marriage for either party to lose out significantly.

Point 3: Please refer to my point 1

So you've experienced a bitter and painful divorce. Well, good for you. I haven't. I don't need to go through it personally to experience it.

I fail to see what makes you an expert in divorces because you went through ONE.

Some divorces are horrible. Some are not quite as bad. Almost all are painful, but a good number of them are worked out in good faith.

C'mon, there's more than one way to shoe a horse.

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

In reply to GentlemanJack
2/16/12
GentlemanJack:
manbearpig:

MY DIVORCE WAS COOLER THAN YOUR DIVORCE!!!!!!!! Neener

He actually hasn't been divorced yet. And yeah, there's nothing cool about it - for some reason the kid just doesn't seem to understand that.

He's been divorced once. Apparently this makes him an expert. He's in his mid 30s and so am I. Apparently this makes me a kid.

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

In reply to Anomanderis
2/16/12
Anomanderis:
GentlemanJack:
Anomanderis:

Calm down.

I've actually been separated before (and it's still up in the air whether or not we will get divorced, but we're not there yet). What you refer to is a bad situation, and aggressive and destructive divorce. In my scenario it played out rather differently. But let's have a look at your powerful presentation.

1: Works both ways. You pay her, she pays you if she earns more.

2: In the tri-state area, you pay diddly if she worked and you've been married for less than two years. 10 years? You're in your mid-30s, how have you been through a 10 year long marriage?

3:Again - it flies both ways. If she makes 250 and you make 200, she pays you. And if she makes 250 grand anually, NO judge will make you pay her legal fees, unless you're some sort of multi-millonaire.

I didn't even use a lawyer, we used a mediator. But then, we had both had enough (for that period), so it wasn't one of those abrasive, nasty divorces, it was a trial separation.

In conclusion, no, it's not naivety mate, your counter argument was a classic straw man. You created a worst case situation and then proceeded to knock it down. That was in no way an argument against my point.

I have friends from Uni who got divorced. Some of them had even done quite well. None of them got this disastrous treatment that you've highlighted, not even the one who was caught his missus's bestie in their "matrimonial bedroom".

Here in the tri-state area, legal fees are considered during the divorce settlement - as is debt. Unless you're one of those alpha males who insists that his wife not work, it shouldn't get that bad.

Point of wisdom - do you know the professionals that least uses lawyers for their divorces? Yep. Lawyers. They do all they can to make sure that it doesn't go to court.

Once again, you are being naive. Even in a divorce that does not go to court you would still need to hire a lawyer. You can only use a mediator if it's a short term marriage with no real property (ie a home). Of course, you can mediate in that scenario - it's a couple of kids with no assets.

You're way off on #1 - it's not about payments or 50/50 its about lifestyle. The court takes that into consideration and basically tries to make her whole, irregardless of who pays it or how she got there (ie you).

There is no way you're right on #2 - that would assume that the marriage did not co-mingle funds in any way - ie you lived within the means of your salary and she lived within the means of her salary and yet you both lived in the same home. No judge would grant that.

#3 is clearly wrong (yet again, you're 0-3 kiddo). If its a large divorce with kids, she will seek lawyer fees and probably get them. Also these fees can be requested at any time. She may not go for it initially, but she can always make the request in the future.

You try to demonstrate experience but fail miserably since you haven't been divorced. A separation is not a divorce kiddo. The "fun stuff" hasn't begun for you yet. Again, you're incredibly naive if you think there's anything friendly or fair about it.

Funniest thing is that you keep calling me kiddo. At best we're the same age. (0-1 kiddo)

Point 1: Maintaining lifestyle only comes into play if you're by far wealthier than she is. If you both earn around the same, then she can maintain her lifestyle herself. (0-2 kiddo)

Point 2: - what on earth does this have to do with co-mingling finances? It's just 2 years. Everyone goes their way, not enough time has been invested in the marriage for either party to lose out significantly.

Point 3: Please refer to my point 1

So you've experienced a bitter and painful divorce. Well, good for you. I haven't. I don't need to go through it personally to experience it.

I fail to see what makes you an expert in divorces because you went through ONE.

Some divorces are horrible. Some are not quite as bad. Almost all are painful, but a good number of them are worked out in good faith.

C'mon, there's more than one way to shoe a horse.

You know what, kiddo, you go ahead and believe whatever you want. I used to be in your fantasy land too. But you'll learn one day. Your hardest lesson will come from #1 above - you keep on wanting to interject this feeling of 50/50 when a divorce has nothing to do with that.

So go ahead and believe in whatever you want. If you want to believe in Santa Claus, lollipops and rainbows, who am I to spoil a kid's dream?

In reply to whatwhatwhat
2/16/12
whatwhatwhat:

if i got served with divorce papers at work i would go scorched earth on that ass
fuck that shit

Well that's pretty much exactly how it goes down. You have to be served with the papers and it can't be by her. So the Sheriff offers a service where they show up at your work.

In reply to GentlemanJack
2/16/12
GentlemanJack:
Anomanderis:
GentlemanJack:
Anomanderis:

Calm down.

I've actually been separated before (and it's still up in the air whether or not we will get divorced, but we're not there yet). What you refer to is a bad situation, and aggressive and destructive divorce. In my scenario it played out rather differently. But let's have a look at your powerful presentation.

1: Works both ways. You pay her, she pays you if she earns more.

2: In the tri-state area, you pay diddly if she worked and you've been married for less than two years. 10 years? You're in your mid-30s, how have you been through a 10 year long marriage?

3:Again - it flies both ways. If she makes 250 and you make 200, she pays you. And if she makes 250 grand anually, NO judge will make you pay her legal fees, unless you're some sort of multi-millonaire.

I didn't even use a lawyer, we used a mediator. But then, we had both had enough (for that period), so it wasn't one of those abrasive, nasty divorces, it was a trial separation.

In conclusion, no, it's not naivety mate, your counter argument was a classic straw man. You created a worst case situation and then proceeded to knock it down. That was in no way an argument against my point.

I have friends from Uni who got divorced. Some of them had even done quite well. None of them got this disastrous treatment that you've highlighted, not even the one who was caught his missus's bestie in their "matrimonial bedroom".

Here in the tri-state area, legal fees are considered during the divorce settlement - as is debt. Unless you're one of those alpha males who insists that his wife not work, it shouldn't get that bad.

Point of wisdom - do you know the professionals that least uses lawyers for their divorces? Yep. Lawyers. They do all they can to make sure that it doesn't go to court.

Once again, you are being naive. Even in a divorce that does not go to court you would still need to hire a lawyer. You can only use a mediator if it's a short term marriage with no real property (ie a home). Of course, you can mediate in that scenario - it's a couple of kids with no assets.

You're way off on #1 - it's not about payments or 50/50 its about lifestyle. The court takes that into consideration and basically tries to make her whole, irregardless of who pays it or how she got there (ie you).

There is no way you're right on #2 - that would assume that the marriage did not co-mingle funds in any way - ie you lived within the means of your salary and she lived within the means of her salary and yet you both lived in the same home. No judge would grant that.

#3 is clearly wrong (yet again, you're 0-3 kiddo). If its a large divorce with kids, she will seek lawyer fees and probably get them. Also these fees can be requested at any time. She may not go for it initially, but she can always make the request in the future.

You try to demonstrate experience but fail miserably since you haven't been divorced. A separation is not a divorce kiddo. The "fun stuff" hasn't begun for you yet. Again, you're incredibly naive if you think there's anything friendly or fair about it.

Funniest thing is that you keep calling me kiddo. At best we're the same age. (0-1 kiddo)

Point 1: Maintaining lifestyle only comes into play if you're by far wealthier than she is. If you both earn around the same, then she can maintain her lifestyle herself. (0-2 kiddo)

Point 2: - what on earth does this have to do with co-mingling finances? It's just 2 years. Everyone goes their way, not enough time has been invested in the marriage for either party to lose out significantly.

Point 3: Please refer to my point 1

So you've experienced a bitter and painful divorce. Well, good for you. I haven't. I don't need to go through it personally to experience it.

I fail to see what makes you an expert in divorces because you went through ONE.

Some divorces are horrible. Some are not quite as bad. Almost all are painful, but a good number of them are worked out in good faith.

C'mon, there's more than one way to shoe a horse.

You know what, kiddo, you go ahead and believe whatever you want. I used to be in your fantasy land too. But you'll learn one day. Your hardest lesson will come from #1 above - you keep on wanting to interject this feeling of 50/50 when a divorce has nothing to do with that.

So go ahead and believe in whatever you want. If you want to believe in Santa Claus, lollipops and rainbows, who am I to spoil a kid's dream?

I understand. You're totally correct, my apologies.

For the rest of WSO, please be informed, the elder has spoken. There is no reasonable divorce, you cannot get a divorce for less than a few million dollars, and the wife will get everything, leaving you to pay her for the rest of your life.

In short, your life ends at divorce, and lollipops or rainbows (or both) don't exist. It's true. The old man of WSO has experienced it.

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

In reply to Anomanderis
2/16/12
Anomanderis:

I understand. You're totally correct, my apologies.

Good boy.

There's hope for you yet, kiddo.

In reply to GentlemanJack
2/16/12
GentlemanJack:
Anomanderis:

I understand. You're totally correct, my apologies.

Good boy.

There's hope for you yet, kiddo.

Heh. You unfortunately are doomed I'm afraid. And you're mistaken. Kiddo.

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

2/16/12

I've never before seen divorce as the ruler in a dick measuring contest. lol

-MBP

2/16/12

Raise your hand if you've seen people running from those trying to serve them with divorce papers

*raises hand*

2/16/12

One of the guys I work with got served at work a few years ago.

To elucidate a bit more on my story...I can assure you that it's not exaggerated. The guy was old money and an M&A BigLaw Partner so he was easily clearing low 7-figs + family cash (prob. most of his wealth), he was married over 20 years and his wife didn't do anything except play tennis as far I could tell. Didn't even run the household (nanny, cleaning people, never cooked). No pre-nup.

And yes for those wondering...his daughter dumped me. :(

In reply to GentlemanJack
2/16/12
GentlemanJack:
Otter.:

Now I've never been married, nor do I plan to be anytime soon, so take this with a grain of salt from someone who hasn't experienced anything firsthand yet.

Why not just find a better girl to date/marry? Well-off/wealthy, attractive, comes from a good family, good upbringing, good values, good education, good job, motivated, doesn't care much about material goods. I almost automatically write off any women who carry lots of expensive handbags or shop with their dad's money (when she is supposed to support herself with a job).

Seriously though, why not find a girl that is smarter and better educated than you are, comes from a better background, or even has a better job? That way maybe you won't feel like you're being ripped off by her because she adds just as much, if not more, to the marriage as you do.

I hear all this talk of "gold-digging" tendencies in wives, but I feel like this is something that is easy to figure out ahead of time. Does she get pissed when you don't buy her shiny things? Does she expect you to take her on lavish vacations? Does she talk about money at all, really? Don't marry or date her. I feel like if a girl has grown up with some money (excluding if her family is obnoxious "new money" living in a McMansion somewhere), then she doesn't really feel the need for conspicuous consumption quite as much and is just happy with someone who is smart, somewhat attractive, and who she gets along with.

I guess maybe this is referred to as "marrying up."

Maybe I'm just being naive - I'm sure Eddie would think so.

You're on the right track with your thinking. Here's what I would add:

1 - Debt load. How much total debt she has is a pretty good sign of a lot of things

2 - FICO score. Same as above.

3 - Relationship with her dad. Yeah, I know this is psycho-babble BS but I also happen to think it plays a role.

Personally, I'm never getting married again. If by some chance it should happen again, right now I'm still only dating older women that have their shit together. You need to find a woman that has already fleeced an ex-husband - don't be the the ex-husband being fleeced. All my current ladies already have their own houses, their own cars, their own "shiny things" as you put it. That type of woman is going to have a lot more realistic expectations from a marriage.

Haha, 'hey honey, I would like to get married but I'm going to need a credit report and a bank statement.'

Business opportunity; Carfax for women.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

In reply to happypantsmcgee
2/16/12
happypantsmcgee:

Haha, 'hey honey, I would like to get married but I'm going to need a credit report and a bank statement.'

Business opportunity; Carfax for women.

Nah, you can get everything you need from any PI. I put all my dates through it now and they don't even have to know.

In reply to happypantsmcgee
2/16/12
happypantsmcgee:
GentlemanJack:
Otter.:

Now I've never been married, nor do I plan to be anytime soon, so take this with a grain of salt from someone who hasn't experienced anything firsthand yet.

Why not just find a better girl to date/marry? Well-off/wealthy, attractive, comes from a good family, good upbringing, good values, good education, good job, motivated, doesn't care much about material goods. I almost automatically write off any women who carry lots of expensive handbags or shop with their dad's money (when she is supposed to support herself with a job).

Seriously though, why not find a girl that is smarter and better educated than you are, comes from a better background, or even has a better job? That way maybe you won't feel like you're being ripped off by her because she adds just as much, if not more, to the marriage as you do.

I hear all this talk of "gold-digging" tendencies in wives, but I feel like this is something that is easy to figure out ahead of time. Does she get pissed when you don't buy her shiny things? Does she expect you to take her on lavish vacations? Does she talk about money at all, really? Don't marry or date her. I feel like if a girl has grown up with some money (excluding if her family is obnoxious "new money" living in a McMansion somewhere), then she doesn't really feel the need for conspicuous consumption quite as much and is just happy with someone who is smart, somewhat attractive, and who she gets along with.

I guess maybe this is referred to as "marrying up."

Maybe I'm just being naive - I'm sure Eddie would think so.

You're on the right track with your thinking. Here's what I would add:

1 - Debt load. How much total debt she has is a pretty good sign of a lot of things

2 - FICO score. Same as above.

3 - Relationship with her dad. Yeah, I know this is psycho-babble BS but I also happen to think it plays a role.

Personally, I'm never getting married again. If by some chance it should happen again, right now I'm still only dating older women that have their shit together. You need to find a woman that has already fleeced an ex-husband - don't be the the ex-husband being fleeced. All my current ladies already have their own houses, their own cars, their own "shiny things" as you put it. That type of woman is going to have a lot more realistic expectations from a marriage.

Haha, 'hey honey, I would like to get married but I'm going to need a credit report and a bank statement.'

Business opportunity; Carfax for women.

Hahaha. They already have a service that let's you run quick basic background checks on other people - it's targeted to the dating community. Forget the name.

In reply to RagnarDanneskjold
2/16/12
RagnarDanneskjold:
happypantsmcgee:
GentlemanJack:
Otter.:

Now I've never been married, nor do I plan to be anytime soon, so take this with a grain of salt from someone who hasn't experienced anything firsthand yet.

Why not just find a better girl to date/marry? Well-off/wealthy, attractive, comes from a good family, good upbringing, good values, good education, good job, motivated, doesn't care much about material goods. I almost automatically write off any women who carry lots of expensive handbags or shop with their dad's money (when she is supposed to support herself with a job).

Seriously though, why not find a girl that is smarter and better educated than you are, comes from a better background, or even has a better job? That way maybe you won't feel like you're being ripped off by her because she adds just as much, if not more, to the marriage as you do.

I hear all this talk of "gold-digging" tendencies in wives, but I feel like this is something that is easy to figure out ahead of time. Does she get pissed when you don't buy her shiny things? Does she expect you to take her on lavish vacations? Does she talk about money at all, really? Don't marry or date her. I feel like if a girl has grown up with some money (excluding if her family is obnoxious "new money" living in a McMansion somewhere), then she doesn't really feel the need for conspicuous consumption quite as much and is just happy with someone who is smart, somewhat attractive, and who she gets along with.

I guess maybe this is referred to as "marrying up."

Maybe I'm just being naive - I'm sure Eddie would think so.

You're on the right track with your thinking. Here's what I would add:

1 - Debt load. How much total debt she has is a pretty good sign of a lot of things

2 - FICO score. Same as above.

3 - Relationship with her dad. Yeah, I know this is psycho-babble BS but I also happen to think it plays a role.

Personally, I'm never getting married again. If by some chance it should happen again, right now I'm still only dating older women that have their shit together. You need to find a woman that has already fleeced an ex-husband - don't be the the ex-husband being fleeced. All my current ladies already have their own houses, their own cars, their own "shiny things" as you put it. That type of woman is going to have a lot more realistic expectations from a marriage.

Haha, 'hey honey, I would like to get married but I'm going to need a credit report and a bank statement.'

Business opportunity; Carfax for women.

Hahaha. They already have a service that let's you run quick basic background checks on other people - it's targeted to the dating community. Forget the name.

facebook?

-MBP

In reply to RagnarDanneskjold
2/16/12
RagnarDanneskjold:

Hahaha. They already have a service that let's you run quick basic background checks on other people - it's targeted to the dating community. Forget the name.

I'm sure that's the case. You can get everything you need from the databases that PIs have access to. Just pick any PI from the phone book and for a few bucks and a couple hours later you will have everything you need.

In reply to Otter.
2/16/12
Otter.:

Why not just find a better girl to date/marry? Well-off/wealthy, attractive, comes from a good family, good upbringing, good values, good education, good job, motivated, doesn't care much about material goods.

I credit the success of my third marriage to this very thing almost exclusively. I abhor dependence in a woman (in anyone, really), so marrying a woman with her own money and assets and a good heart and great head on her shoulders changed my life. They're rare, but they are out there.

2/16/12
In reply to Otter.
2/16/12
Otter.:
Ravenous:

So to Otter's point, you are putting yourself in the absolute worst position you can by trying to marry up as a man. Not only are you likely to be unsuccessful in the pursuit (because the woman will probably balk), but you have a very high chance of being miserable for the rest of your life if you do pull it off. Don't even think about it.

If you doubt any of this, stroll over to your good friend wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergamy

"[Hypergamy] is often used more specifically in reference to a perceived tendency among human cultures for females to seek or be encouraged to pursue male suitors that are higher status than themselves, which often manifests itself as being attracted to men who are comparatively older, wealthier or otherwise more privileged than themselves."

Appreciate the reply, but I am curious about this point. Why would you be miserable if you pull it off?

Also, to clarify, I don't mean "marry up" in terms of a 5'4" obese pimply fat kid marrying a super model. Of course I want to be with an attractive girl (who doesn't) but I don't care so much about someone's cup size or whether or not they look like they belong in Victoria's Secret.

I guess what I mean is - marry a girl that comes from a background where she has not had to spend much time worrying about money. That way, she will not obsess over wanting shiny things if shiny things are not that big of a deal to her. If all the jewelery she wears is passed down from her great-grandmother, then you don't need to buy her stuff from TIffany's all the time. Bam, problem solved.

Yeah, I know what you meant. Marrying up in a situation that is not obviously a joke to a neutral 3rd party observer.

It's not problem solved. Women want to move up from where they currently are. If she comes from an old money family, she will want to marry into another old money family of equal or higher status, marry a celebrity, etc.. It's extremely rare for a woman to be able to marry down. I'm not saying it's impossible, but you're violating the laws of nature with that kind of arrangement.

If you're really curious about trying to do this, you should read the book, "What Women Want, What Men Want." It has nothing to do with the bullshit cultural stuff like Men Are From Mars (or whatever -- I haven't read that book). In one part of the book, they survey med students at an elite medical school. The women are pissed because they worked their asses off to get into an elite med school and realize that they have effectively priced themselves out of the market -- there are few men in society of higher status than they are (because they measure status and attractiveness in men as earnings power), and they don't want to compromise by marrying down, because they feel they "won't be able to respect their husband" if they do that. These women want to date / marry the male med students, who, as they all say, are virtually guaranteed to earn a lot and hold prestigious positions in society. But the male med students are not interested, because the women are beastly (which, as the book hints at, is probably almost a prereq for women getting into an elite medical school -- attractive women would simply find a mate and not go to all of that trouble). So the men chase nurses, undergrads, any other women that are physically attractive, and the female med students bitch and moan about it (pretty hilarious actually).

So along those lines, I would be very surprised if you could bag a hot, charming woman from a wealthy family unless you brought as least as much to the table. The odds are very low. I'm sure in the history of time what you are talking about has happened before, but it's rare and unlikely to work outside of the movies.

I think you WOULD be miserable if you pulled it off to the extent that your wife carped all the time about how you couldn't provide enough to maintain the standards she was used to or that she began to resent you over time. Moving up the curve in society is very easy to do psychologically, but going in reverse is almost impossible without substantial emotional trauma. If you marry a woman who has never learned the value of the dollar and then make her learn that, it's not going to end well for you (I'm not talking about forcing poverty on her either -- just anything that is an obvious step down from whatever she is used to).

Attractive, emotionally stable women from the lower middle class make the best wives. By definition, almost anything is a step up, and they're much more likely to be content. If you're worried about appearances and they are a little rough around the edges, send them to charm school.

2/16/12

It would be rather interesting to use that line on a bird though:

"Hey babe, you look like an emotionally stable woman from the lower middle class, could I have your number?"

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

2/16/12

The sanctity of marriage is gone. Over with. If it was treated as a true life-long commitment as it used to be, we'd vet our partners more thoroughly or try to work through the problems. As things are now, the societal sting of a divorce is not enough to incentivize working through it or taking a vow seriously. I'm not even making a religious argument here; it's just easier to call it quits than it is to break up with Verizon. I just don't undertand why people don't wait, wait, wait. Sometimes ugly character flaws appear after 2 years. Commitment with intention to marry after long vetting period unless crazy warts appear should be the M.O.

In reply to Ravenous
2/16/12
Ravenous:

It's not problem solved. Women want to move up from where they currently are. If she comes from an old money family, she will want to marry into another old money family of equal or higher status, marry a celebrity, etc.. It's extremely rare for a woman to be able to marry down. I'm not saying it's impossible, but you're violating the laws of nature with that kind of arrangement.

But don't you think you can both be "marrying up" in different ways? Here's a hyperbolic example: So she is old money and belongs to nice country clubs that you want to join and hangs out with people you want to be friends with, but half the "old money" guys she's dated are alcoholics who can't hold onto a reasonable job. So, in that situation, you are smart, well-educated, ambitious, have a good or "prestigious" job, and in that sense she is "marrying up." And you get to go to her fancy parties at the country club and 'summer' at her place on Fisher's Island or whatever. In that sense you are "marrying up."

I will concede that you are citing actual studies and I am just making up theoretical examples, but I'm still think this whole idea of a guy "marrying up" in some cases is definitely possible and happens.

Anecdotally, have you never seen a guy do this? I can think of a few of examples where I see guys marrying women that might be considered above their "level" or whatever you want to call it. They just bring different, complementary things to the marriage.

Hi, Eric Stratton, rush chairman, damn glad to meet you.

2/16/12

I think you make some good points, and I now see where you're coming from. I agree with the relative value proposition idea.

I don't think of bankers as exactly the paragon of marital stability, nor as typical family men, but I agree that money is a major cause for things like divorce in many cases.

I guess my initial point was - if you marry a girl who lives a low-maintenance lifestyle and has low-maintenance tendencies before marriage, it might be fair to assume that she'll continue those during the marriage. But, if she's high-maintenance to begin with, don't be surprised once you're married and she starts complaining that you don't make enough money to support the lifestyle she wants.

Hi, Eric Stratton, rush chairman, damn glad to meet you.

2/16/12

Being married to the *right* person (WHO), at the *right* time (WHEN), and for the *right* reasons (WHY) is the key. If just one of these things is off, it's more than likely to end badly. Easy to say of course haha, but hard to live by.

I wouldn't write off marriage completely, but the best thing to do is to wait. Few if any men in this world looking back on their lives would say "I wish I got married sooner."

Again, not everyone should wait. Some are ready in their early 20s. But I'd say more often than not, wait.

A good marriage often is about both sides willing to compromise their own individual things in order to make it work for *both* - from the bigger issues down to the everyday stuff. Simply put, the younger you are, the less willing you are to compromise (and I would even venture to say that this is even more true for younger women than men). In a way, a lot of men may even feel that marriage itself is already a big compromise for them hahahaha (but a compromise they're more than happy to make if it's for the right woman and at the right time).

Guys in their early 20s tend to not really know what to even expect with marriage (other than a hazy idea of it) - they're not really sure what they're willing to compromise just yet. Or they feel the decision is being made for them by others, which they will play along with, until you're married and then the "wait a minute! This isn't what I signed up for..."

Women in their early 20s (or "less mature" regardless of age) tend to have idealistic or unrealistic expectations about marriage. Regardless of culture, a lot of girls grow up fantasizing about what their wedding will be like (again not all but it's very common), and they carry this fantasy of a storybook wedding into what married life will actually be like. In her mind, she has envisioned X, Y and Z - even down to the decorations for the dream house she wants, fantasies of a storybook family life, her schedule for child rearing, etc. This dooms the relationship since the reality will never match up to what she has envisioned in her mind.

As both get older, we become less idealistic. Most of you guys will have a better idea of who you are -- what you are willing to put up with and what you're not willing to put up with. The women may still have that fantasy, but it's been tempered with reality - they are more willing to compromise to make it work, rather than trying to get the man to live up to whatever fantasy she has in her mind for what married life should be like.

Wait. You'll be glad you did.

2/16/12
2/16/12

Yeah, I'm sick of some girls thinking that life's like the Notebook and is nonstop romance or whatever's in that movie... They watch all of those crap romance movies and apparently are too dumb to realize that it's not what real life is like.

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough.

"There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.

2/16/12

fuck golddiggers. the second my future wife starts bitching about me not making enough money I'll divorce her.

why the fuck do you guys here care so much about money? idk about you guys but I worship rockstars more than hedge fund managers. wtf am I even doing on this forum?

2/16/12

This thread has scared the crap out of me. My quasi-single life is starting to look way better lol

2/17/12

The spousal relative value proposition is spot on imo. I've seen it first hand how it works, and with others, doesn't work (divorce)

Basically, you always have to give them a reason to stay around (money) unless they are very loyal which is rare

2/17/12

How hard is it to park a chunk of your assets overseas in trusts, swiss/cayman accounts, foreign bank accounts so that it is either hidden and/or untouchable in the event of a divorce?

2/17/12

This is a great thread, should be put on the front page. Marriage is just not a good trade any way you look at it for a male. Meanwhile, asymmetric payoff for the wife. Do you really want to be on the wrong side of THAT trade?

In reply to JeffSkilling
2/17/12
JeffSkilling:

How hard is it to park a chunk of your assets overseas in trusts, swiss/cayman accounts, foreign bank accounts so that it is either hidden and/or untouchable in the event of a divorce?

Hard bordering on impossible. Forensic accountants will find that shit, and it's not widely known, but you won't find a country you'd be comfortable parking assets in who wouldn't turn your assets over at the hint of an American court order any more. You can thank the Patriot Act for that. Every country that used to offer a modicum of financial privacy now kowtows to the US government for fear of being labeled a "rogue" state. See: Belize.

2/17/12

Marriage in America is broken because the age of female lawyers, bankers, consultants and any other well-paid occupation (outside medicine) that is achievable through education has fundamentally annulled women's most basic, evolutionary need for men: to provide and protect. Watch out for girls who have grown up wanting careers: what they want, outside of a career, is short-term flings with dark, savage, dominant men who are too stupid to actually challenge or control them outside the bedroom, which is the only area this kind of woman lets loose in. They will steadily rack up their partner count and may only consider marriage once their looks have faded. And when that time comes, they - this new breed of career-oriented American liberal arts woman - will also no longer be able to satisfy the basic evolutuonary need of men: great sex, and never feeling the threat that our children aren't ours.

In reply to Edmundo Braverman
2/17/12
Edmundo Braverman:
JeffSkilling:

How hard is it to park a chunk of your assets overseas in trusts, swiss/cayman accounts, foreign bank accounts so that it is either hidden and/or untouchable in the event of a divorce?

Hard bordering on impossible. Forensic accountants will find that shit, and it's not widely known, but you won't find a country you'd be comfortable parking assets in who wouldn't turn your assets over at the hint of an American court order any more. You can thank the Patriot Act for that. Every country that used to offer a modicum of financial privacy now kowtows to the US government for fear of being labeled a "rogue" state. See: Belize.

I prefer to follow the guidance of George Bluth when trying to conceal assets: "there's always money in the banana stand." Even the best forensic accountants wouldn't be able to find that.

Hi, Eric Stratton, rush chairman, damn glad to meet you.

In reply to Edmundo Braverman
2/17/12
Edmundo Braverman:
JeffSkilling:

How hard is it to park a chunk of your assets overseas in trusts, swiss/cayman accounts, foreign bank accounts so that it is either hidden and/or untouchable in the event of a divorce?

Hard bordering on impossible. Forensic accountants will find that shit, and it's not widely known, but you won't find a country you'd be comfortable parking assets in who wouldn't turn your assets over at the hint of an American court order any more. You can thank the Patriot Act for that. Every country that used to offer a modicum of financial privacy now kowtows to the US government for fear of being labeled a "rogue" state. See: Belize.

Come to Canada and get your canadian citizenship (takes 3 to 5 years). You'll only have to be in Canada 6 months a year. Once you have it, you can drop the US citizenship (i.e. won't have to pay taxes on your income generated anywhere on the planet) and you'll be able to place your money offshore whenever you want with no problem.

2/17/12

This is a fantastic thread, one everyone should be forced to read. I'm in my late 20s and have been in 3 long term relationships now over the past 10 years; 2 years, 2.5 years, and the last one almost 4 years. The first 2 I thought at the time that we'd get married, and man looking at these girls now, I count my blessings I'm not married to these women. You look back at yourself and want to kick your own ass.

This last one is just wrapping up now, and had I been married 2 years ago (I'm almost positive she would have said yes had I asked), would now be ending in a messy divorce. I was the one pushing to take things slow, not move in together, lets see where our lives head, etc... Best move I've ever made.

In reply to Edmundo Braverman
2/17/12
Edmundo Braverman:
JeffSkilling:

How hard is it to park a chunk of your assets overseas in trusts, swiss/cayman accounts, foreign bank accounts so that it is either hidden and/or untouchable in the event of a divorce?

Hard bordering on impossible. Forensic accountants will find that shit, and it's not widely known, but you won't find a country you'd be comfortable parking assets in who wouldn't turn your assets over at the hint of an American court order any more. You can thank the Patriot Act for that. Every country that used to offer a modicum of financial privacy now kowtows to the US government for fear of being labeled a "rogue" state. See: Belize.

Yeah, but does it work if you're a dual citizen? I'm both American and Sri Lankan/ Bhutanese, and wonder if SL/ Bhutan will stand firm, or bend over.

Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over to your property and break your windows.

In reply to manbearpig
2/17/12
manbearpig:

I've never before seen divorce as the ruler in a dick measuring contest. lol

This is WSO- anything can be a dick-measuring contest.

In reply to Otter.
2/17/12
Otter.:
Edmundo Braverman:
JeffSkilling:

How hard is it to park a chunk of your assets overseas in trusts, swiss/cayman accounts, foreign bank accounts so that it is either hidden and/or untouchable in the event of a divorce?

Hard bordering on impossible. Forensic accountants will find that shit, and it's not widely known, but you won't find a country you'd be comfortable parking assets in who wouldn't turn your assets over at the hint of an American court order any more. You can thank the Patriot Act for that. Every country that used to offer a modicum of financial privacy now kowtows to the US government for fear of being labeled a "rogue" state. See: Belize.

I prefer to follow the guidance of George Bluth when trying to conceal assets: "there's always money in the banana stand." Even the best forensic accountants wouldn't be able to find that.

I remember that! That was hilarious. "No, no, you don't get it. There's money in the banana stand . . ."

In reply to Abdel
2/17/12
Abdel:
Edmundo Braverman:
JeffSkilling:

How hard is it to park a chunk of your assets overseas in trusts, swiss/cayman accounts, foreign bank accounts so that it is either hidden and/or untouchable in the event of a divorce?

Hard bordering on impossible. Forensic accountants will find that shit, and it's not widely known, but you won't find a country you'd be comfortable parking assets in who wouldn't turn your assets over at the hint of an American court order any more. You can thank the Patriot Act for that. Every country that used to offer a modicum of financial privacy now kowtows to the US government for fear of being labeled a "rogue" state. See: Belize.

Come to Canada and get your canadian citizenship (takes 3 to 5 years). You'll only have to be in Canada 6 months a year. Once you have it, you can drop the US citizenship (i.e. won't have to pay taxes on your income generated anywhere on the planet) and you'll be able to place your money offshore whenever you want with no problem.

...if you drop your US citizenship, how do you plan on being able to work in this country...? Get a visa? lol

2/17/12

There is something about women who like designer shit...i guess its more exciting to bang them

In reply to blackopsmonkey
2/17/12
blackopsmonkey:
Abdel:
Edmundo Braverman:
JeffSkilling:

How hard is it to park a chunk of your assets overseas in trusts, swiss/cayman accounts, foreign bank accounts so that it is either hidden and/or untouchable in the event of a divorce?

Hard bordering on impossible. Forensic accountants will find that shit, and it's not widely known, but you won't find a country you'd be comfortable parking assets in who wouldn't turn your assets over at the hint of an American court order any more. You can thank the Patriot Act for that. Every country that used to offer a modicum of financial privacy now kowtows to the US government for fear of being labeled a "rogue" state. See: Belize.

Come to Canada and get your canadian citizenship (takes 3 to 5 years). You'll only have to be in Canada 6 months a year. Once you have it, you can drop the US citizenship (i.e. won't have to pay taxes on your income generated anywhere on the planet) and you'll be able to place your money offshore whenever you want with no problem.

...if you drop your US citizenship, how do you plan on being able to work in this country...? Get a visa? lol

If you want to put part of your wealth offshore, it's either you get a visa to work in the US while your assets are safe overseas. Or no visa but the US Gov will come for you.

''A growing number of Americans living overseas are renouncing U.S. citizenship. The reason? Mounting tax and reporting obligations, lawyers say.''
http://blogs.wsj.com/hong-kong/2011/03/10/red-whit...

2/17/12

Added to my bookmarks lest I forget. Good insight from GentlemanJack and Eddie as always.

Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over to your property and break your windows.

In reply to blackopsmonkey
2/17/12
blackopsmonkey:

...if you drop your US citizenship, how do you plan on being able to work in this country...? Get a visa? lol

I can actually see the Canada plan working. I worked for IBM and was assigned to a long term contract in Canada. There are agencies that will help you get a temporary work permit for Canada under NAFTA rules for like $300. You have to answer some questions and it helps if you're a college graduate and you really can't have any criminal things in your past. If you get the right agency to create the papers and write the right things and have them coach you on how to answer (I won't reveal all those items here) you can get a work permit on the spot. I remember that I flew in on a Sunday night at 10PM to god-forsaken Winnipeg and after a measly 15 minutes with an immigration agent, I was given a nice, shiny permit that let me stay & work in Canada for a whole year - and I could leave & re-enter the country freely. I could buy a home, open a bank account, basically do anything I wanted. This was the first step to becoming a citizen in Canada and I hear the resulting steps are easy too, just take some time.

So, those same agencies will then help you get a permit to work in the US in the same way, just reverse. It is NAFTA after all, so the same rules that you used to get a permit for Canada will work in reverse for a permit in the US.

2/17/12

Yeah, for some reason I don't see a Visa in your future if you renounce citizenship to avoid taxes. FYI, even when you renounce you are still liable for a certain amount of taxes.

So much easier to have your state residence in Del, have an LLC and minimize tax expenses and just withdraw physical cash and hide it.

And if you are balling to the point you need this crap, just go to a third world country, not involved with terrorism and buy a passport or get a solid fake one. Use that to open a bank account somewhere and be done with it.

In reply to Abdel
2/17/12
Abdel:
blackopsmonkey:
Abdel:
Edmundo Braverman:
JeffSkilling:

How hard is it to park a chunk of your assets overseas in trusts, swiss/cayman accounts, foreign bank accounts so that it is either hidden and/or untouchable in the event of a divorce?

Hard bordering on impossible. Forensic accountants will find that shit, and it's not widely known, but you won't find a country you'd be comfortable parking assets in who wouldn't turn your assets over at the hint of an American court order any more. You can thank the Patriot Act for that. Every country that used to offer a modicum of financial privacy now kowtows to the US government for fear of being labeled a "rogue" state. See: Belize.

Come to Canada and get your canadian citizenship (takes 3 to 5 years). You'll only have to be in Canada 6 months a year. Once you have it, you can drop the US citizenship (i.e. won't have to pay taxes on your income generated anywhere on the planet) and you'll be able to place your money offshore whenever you want with no problem.

...if you drop your US citizenship, how do you plan on being able to work in this country...? Get a visa? lol

If you want to put part of your wealth offshore, it's either you get a visa to work in the US while your assets are safe overseas. Or no visa but the US Gov will come for you.

''A growing number of Americans living overseas are renouncing U.S. citizenship. The reason? Mounting tax and reporting obligations, lawyers say.''
http://blogs.wsj.com/hong-kong/2011/03/10/red-whit...

Canada pays higher taxes, surely?

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

In reply to Anomanderis
2/17/12
Anomanderis:
Abdel:
blackopsmonkey:
Abdel:
Edmundo Braverman:
JeffSkilling:

How hard is it to park a chunk of your assets overseas in trusts, swiss/cayman accounts, foreign bank accounts so that it is either hidden and/or untouchable in the event of a divorce?

Hard bordering on impossible. Forensic accountants will find that shit, and it's not widely known, but you won't find a country you'd be comfortable parking assets in who wouldn't turn your assets over at the hint of an American court order any more. You can thank the Patriot Act for that. Every country that used to offer a modicum of financial privacy now kowtows to the US government for fear of being labeled a "rogue" state. See: Belize.

Come to Canada and get your canadian citizenship (takes 3 to 5 years). You'll only have to be in Canada 6 months a year. Once you have it, you can drop the US citizenship (i.e. won't have to pay taxes on your income generated anywhere on the planet) and you'll be able to place your money offshore whenever you want with no problem.

...if you drop your US citizenship, how do you plan on being able to work in this country...? Get a visa? lol

If you want to put part of your wealth offshore, it's either you get a visa to work in the US while your assets are safe overseas. Or no visa but the US Gov will come for you.

''A growing number of Americans living overseas are renouncing U.S. citizenship. The reason? Mounting tax and reporting obligations, lawyers say.''
http://blogs.wsj.com/hong-kong/2011/03/10/red-whit...

Canada pays higher taxes, surely?

We're talking about people who have (or are in the process of having) considerable wealth placed offshore and don't want the US gov to get it.

2/17/12

I dont wanna grow up, I wanna be a toys R us kid. Thats basically what this guy is saying. Either that or his wife is as shitty as he makes her out to be.

"...all truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

- Schopenhauer

In reply to TNA
2/17/12
ANT:

Yeah, for some reason I don't see a Visa in your future if you renounce citizenship to avoid taxes. FYI, even when you renounce you are still liable for a certain amount of taxes.

So much easier to have your state residence in Del, have an LLC and minimize tax expenses and just withdraw physical cash and hide it.

And if you are balling to the point you need this crap, just go to a third world country, not involved with terrorism and buy a passport or get a solid fake one. Use that to open a bank account somewhere and be done with it.

Under current law, if you renounce US citizenship you pay 35% of your global asset value on your way out the door. They got tired of trying to chase people down after renunciation, so now they just won't let you leave unless you cough up 35% of your global assets.

The problem with a second passport is that you are still legally required to report your assets to the US government, which creates a paper trail that even a Downs Syndrome divorce attorney would pick up in five minutes.

Whether the country has anything to do with terrorism has nothing to do with it whatsoever. The IRS has made it clear that any country that doesn't play ball is going to be considered a rogue state by the US government and join the ranks of North Korea. Why do you think Switzerland, after literally centuries of the most vaunted and hallowed banking tradition, rolled over and wet on themselves and gave up their American clients to the IRS?

Hiding cash is only practical to the extent that it's portable. You might not have known this, but $100 bills have enough trace metal woven into the linen that $10,000 worth of c-notes on your person is enough to set off an airport metal detector. It's the drug dealer dilemma - what do I do with all this cash?

2/17/12

Invest in art. You can roll up it in a tube and hide it anywhere. If its the right piece it will appreciate at a decent rate and be easy to liquidate.

Wherever I see people doing something the way it's always been done, the way it's 'supposed' to be done, following the same old trends, well, that's just a big red flag to me to go look somewhere else. - Mark Cuban

2/17/12

diamonds son. become a rapper and start up an entourage of bitches to smuggle your diamonds for you. perfect cover.

In reply to whatwhatwhat
2/17/12
whatwhatwhat:

diamonds son. become a rapper and start up an entourage of bitches to smuggle your diamonds for you. perfect cover.

I got an investment-grade black pearl out of Tahiti this way once.

2/17/12
2/17/12

there wasn't anything in there about what her income is, but if she wants nice things she should work for it herself. that's just my mentality and i'm a woman.

2/17/12

Um, I'm sorry but the a-hole just completely left her not even allowing her to pay the bills... that's a dick move and I'm a man. I didn't watch the very last of it, but I'm pretty sure she's mostly bummed out that she's being screwed over, rather than not being able to get things.

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough.

"There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.

2/17/12

How do you test to see if your gf/wife is innately loyal? It occurs to be that if she is, you're basically golden... Obviously, if the girl stuck with you through a really rough patch, you can be pretty confident that she's loyal, but if you're currently successful, wealthy, and have solid future prospects, what can you do to "test" her?

In reply to blackopsmonkey
2/18/12
blackopsmonkey:

How do you test to see if your gf/wife is innately loyal? It occurs to be that if she is, you're basically golden... Obviously, if the girl stuck with you through a really rough patch, you can be pretty confident that she's loyal, but if you're currently successful, wealthy, and have solid future prospects, what can you do to "test" her?

This is hard to do, I'd think. Otherwise, people wouldn't go through so much divorce. Getting to know a girl's nature, what kind of person she is, her core values, ethics, and how she lived her life so far should be considered.

In my opinion, it's important to do background check on the girl and look at her past: past behaviors and lifestyle serve to predict her future behavior.

In reply to blackopsmonkey
2/18/12
blackopsmonkey:

How do you test to see if your gf/wife is innately loyal? It occurs to be that if she is, you're basically golden... Obviously, if the girl stuck with you through a really rough patch, you can be pretty confident that she's loyal, but if you're currently successful, wealthy, and have solid future prospects, what can you do to "test" her?

This is hard to do, I'd think. Otherwise, people wouldn't go through so much divorce. Getting to know a girl's nature, what kind of person she is, her core values, ethics, and how she lived her life so far should be considered.

In my opinion, it's important to do background check on the girl and look at her past: past behaviors and lifestyle serve to predict her future behavior and lifestyle.

In reply to Ravenous
2/18/12
Ravenous:
Otter.:

Now I've never been married, nor do I plan to be anytime soon, so take this with a grain of salt from someone who hasn't experienced anything firsthand yet.

Why not just find a better girl to date/marry? Well-off/wealthy, attractive, comes from a good family, good upbringing, good values, good education, good job, motivated, doesn't care much about material goods. I almost automatically write off any women who carry lots of expensive handbags or shop with their dad's money (when she is supposed to support herself with a job).

Seriously though, why not find a girl that is smarter and better educated than you are, comes from a better background, or even has a better job? That way maybe you won't feel like you're being ripped off by her because she adds just as much, if not more, to the marriage as you do.

I hear all this talk of "gold-digging" tendencies in wives, but I feel like this is something that is easy to figure out ahead of time. Does she get pissed when you don't buy her shiny things? Does she expect you to take her on lavish vacations? Does she talk about money at all, really? Don't marry or date her. I feel like if a girl has grown up with some money (excluding if her family is obnoxious "new money" living in a McMansion somewhere), then she doesn't really feel the need for conspicuous consumption quite as much and is just happy with someone who is smart, somewhat attractive, and who she gets along with.

I guess maybe this is referred to as "marrying up."

Maybe I'm just being naive - I'm sure Eddie would think so.

I was trying so hard not to respond to this thread, but I can't help myself. I'm quoting Otter but not picking on him with my response.

This is a rare instance where I'm going to stand up for the women being bashed on this thread. That's a big statement for someone who firmly supports the Men's Rights Movement (look it up if you don't know what that is).

Guys, in practical terms, there is no such thing as gold digging. The biological fact of the matter is that women are wired to prefer men who have high social status and high earnings power. It's true that some women are tacky, soulless bitches, I won't argue with that. It's true that the laws are decidedly anti-male and that women exploit those laws. But you can't fault women for preferring men with money, and for trying to take some of that money. It's like saying that men are shallow because we love women with big tits, small waists, pouty lips, and beautiful skin, and want to reproduce with them (or at least go through the motions). NO SHIT. We're made that way. We can't help it. And neither can women help themselves in pursuing their own interests.

The fact is, that mother nature doesn't trust either men or women to make smart decisions. So we're wired to make EFFECTIVE decisions -- our preferences are automatic. In other words, our biology is not designed to make us HAPPY, but to ensure the SURVIVAL of the species. That's it. And you get a lot of crazy, bat shit behavior coming out of that dynamic, especially when society tries to enforces its rules on top of the underlying biology, but it is what it is. We're here to pass on our genes. Not to say there aren't hundreds of other worthwhile pursuits in life, but that's the bottom line.

What I am saying is that men and women have contrary, naturally opposing strategies for mating. Men want many women with minimum commitment to any of them. Women want one man, the best they can find. And they want maximum material and emotional investment from that man. And in the way that men are insatiable for sex, women are insatiable for those investments -- more cuddle time, more "bonding talks", more long walks on the beach, and yes, more material stuff (there is a method to the madness -- women are not completely insane). This is why women are more sensitive to "emotional cheating" then men are.

You can't fight it, it is what it is. So there's no point trying to throw women under the bus and bash them about it. They can't help it. But you can protect yourself. Getting married is a really, really bad idea for men because the odds and the laws are completely slanted against us. Our judicial system is absolutely unfair in every way when it comes to supporting men getting divorced.

So if you're going to do it, do it with a margin of safety (but better yet don't do it at all). Two ways to do that: First way is to marry a woman who has fewer options than you (sorry boys, that rules out super models!). It's a relative value play, where the woman is more likely to stay with you and be loyal because you are the best she can get. That necessarily means probably doing less well in mate selection than you otherwise could. I'm not going to say marry an ugly chick, but you get the idea. Note that around 70% of divorces are initiated by the woman (don't be that guy).

Second way would be to absolutely knock the cover off the ball and be as successful as possible, thereby expanding your choice of women, and then go in with an iron clad prenup while shielding your assets. It's not the easiest approach, but you will still have leverage if she can't get to your assets and she can't replace you (if you're worth 20 million bucks for example, who else is she going to trade up to? There's always someone better, but functionally, her options are very limited at that point).

The worst strategy is go in with the "hope and change mindset" (WE KNOW THAT SHIT DOES NOT WORK, DON'T DO IT!).

So to Otter's point, you are putting yourself in the absolute worst position you can by trying to marry up as a man. Not only are you likely to be unsuccessful in the pursuit (because the woman will probably balk), but you have a very high chance of being miserable for the rest of your life if you do pull it off. Don't even think about it.

If you doubt any of this, stroll over to your good friend wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergamy

"[Hypergamy] is often used more specifically in reference to a perceived tendency among human cultures for females to seek or be encouraged to pursue male suitors that are higher status than themselves, which often manifests itself as being attracted to men who are comparatively older, wealthier or otherwise more privileged than themselves."

You can deny reality, but only at your own peril. If you look around and observe how things actually work in life, you know this is true.

Last point: I know there is going to be some whiny man-bitch on here talking about how sacrasanct society's laws and expectations are, blah, blah. You know what? If what society wanted for men actually worked FOR MEN, we wouldn't be having this discussion. There's nothing else to say about that.

This is what I don't get, and I suspect many other guys won't agree with this viewpoint at all.

You argue how women are pre-destined to desire men of higher status and monetary success. I would say that this is a traditional viewpoint, but no longer applicable in our modern society. I'd agree that a man who is successful is more attractive, but does that mean that women should EXPECT her husband to be at certain level of success or wealth?

We're living in 21th century, not 19th century. In the past, most women were not given access to the same level of opportunities or education as men. Hell, most universities back then didn't even admit women. As a result, it was natural of women to look for men who could provide financially and who they could depend on.

Now, women are, actually, almost FORCED to attend schools and get same amount of education, training, etc as any man out there. What that means is that women have virtually same level of income potential and opportunities in terms of career, as any other man. Let's face it - half the population at any college is comprised of women. Last time I checked, no employer says "we only hire men, not women". Many women CEO's, women doctors, women bankers, etc out there in today's society. The point is, women should no longer EXPECT to depend on men regarding income, financial support, etc.

So, I don't think it is entirely fair that a woman NATURALLY expects a man to earn much more than she does and provide all the materialistic and monetary benefits in a marriage. If a bitch wants to buy a Louis Vuitton handbag and Cartier watch, let that bitch go out there and work to buy those. Don't moan and bitch about how your husband is 'only' making 60-70k a year, working his ass off and say you wish you'd married a guy that was rich.

2/18/12

Sexy_like_Enrique,

Re-read (or read it, if you skipped it) my post on page 3. A lot of what Ravenous says is true.

2/18/12

Wow dudes, this is one of the most depressing threads I've ever read.

I'm starting to think that arranged mariages are really a good thing.
Find a women that is willing to build a family and be supportive, and do everything to keep her, just make sure that there isn't some big "No-No", and love will actually grow over the long term.

Far better than all those passion love-stories that end up in tears once the sucargoated bubble bursts.

2/18/12
lolgpa:

Wow dudes, this is one of the most depressing threads I've ever read.

I'm starting to think that arranged mariages are really a good thing.
Find a women that is willing to build a family and be supportive, and do everything to keep her, just make sure that there isn't some big "No-No", and love will actually grow over the long term.

Far better than all those passion love-stories that end up in tears once the sucargoated bubble bursts.

Yeah, but don't get a mail-order bride from Russia or something. She will leave you as soon as she gets a green-card. You have to have *something* in common with her, for you to have a healthy marriage.

Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over to your property and break your windows.