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2/14/12

One of my frat bros who graduated college 2 years ago is married. He married his high school sweetheart last year, at age 23. I went to his wedding, the girl was pretty hot (she was a solid 8), he told me he was the happiest man on the planet at the moment, etc.

One year later, he is constantly talking about how shitty his life is. He despises marriage now. He told me his wife has 'gold digging instinct'.. saying how his level of income isn't satisfactory for her and she wishes that she married a guy that was rich or had a higher paying job. He also mentions how he gets into so many arguments here and there all the time for really petty reasons. He has no freedom. Now, he's considering divorce.

If being married sucks this much, why the fuck do so many people get married? Also why do people ever marry before age 30? To me, that's really stupid.

Comments (410)

2/14/12

No one changes the day they get married, things just get magnified. Guarantee those traits were there all along. 23 is really young but doesn't sound like a guy like that would have taken a different path even if he had waited.

Not something to just jump into cause you like a person and have a free Saturday. Have to make sure you and this person are on the same page about money, careers, kids, etc. Definitely worth spending a day doing pre-marriage counseling shortly after the engagement.

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2/18/12
Cartwright:

No one changes the day they get married, things just get magnified. Guarantee those traits were there all along. 23 is really young but doesn't sound like a guy like that would have taken a different path even if he had waited.

Not something to just jump into cause you like a person and have a free Saturday. Have to make sure you and this person are on the same page about money, careers, kids, etc. Definitely worth spending a day doing pre-marriage counseling shortly after the engagement.

So true...

2/14/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

If being married sucks this much, why the fuck do so many people get married? Also why do people ever marry before age 30? To me, that's really stupid.

Jesus Christ... maybe because every marriage isn't the same exact scenario as your friend and his bitch wife?

paging Dr. Ed to turn his bad experiences into laws to live bylol

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough.

"There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.

2/19/12
scottj19x89:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

If being married sucks this much, why the fuck do so many people get married? Also why do people ever marry before age 30? To me, that's really stupid.

Jesus Christ... maybe because every marriage isn't the same exact scenario as your friend and his bitch wife?

paging Dr. Ed to turn his bad experiences into laws to live bylol

No. You're wrong. Married before 30 means you weren't thinking clearly. I blame drugs and alcohol.

2/21/12
ScotchMonkey:
scottj19x89:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

If being married sucks this much, why the fuck do so many people get married? Also why do people ever marry before age 30? To me, that's really stupid.

Jesus Christ... maybe because every marriage isn't the same exact scenario as your friend and his bitch wife?

paging Dr. Ed to turn his bad experiences into laws to live bylol

No. You're wrong. Married before 30 means you weren't thinking clearly. I blame drugs and alcohol.

I'm married and under 30. In fact I'm only 25. To each his own, but I couldn't be happier. My wife isn't a gold-digger at all. She never asks me to buy her anything, which is what makes showering her with gifts so much more fun.

-MBP

2/14/12

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh, wait...

Yup.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

2/14/12
Edmundo Braverman:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh, wait...

Yup.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You are such a tool

2/14/12

Getting marries isn't shit. His wife is shit.

He should divorce her now, before he makes real $$$.

2/14/12

Yeah, what kind of bitch says that she wishes she would have married somebody with more money? I thought we were past that whole "women stay home, men make the money" thing?... Oh nm, that's only when the soulsucking $#@$^%# are satisfied with their income, otherwise it's the guy's fault.

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough.

"There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.

2/14/12
scottj19x89:

Yeah, what kind of bitch says that she wishes she would have married somebody with more money?

I'm pretty sure I've said that at some point in all three of my marriages.

BTW...this has the makings of an EPIC thread. Just sayin'.

2/14/12
Edmundo Braverman:
scottj19x89:

Yeah, what kind of bitch says that she wishes she would have married somebody with more money?

I'm pretty sure I've said that at some point in all three of my marriages.

thinking it is one thing, but to actually say that to your significant other? All I'm going to EXPECT from a girl is that she pulls in enough money to keep herself above the poverty line, of course a lot of people are going to wish that their wife/husband made more money, but to say that shit to the point where your husband/wife is thinking about divorce?

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough.

"There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.

2/14/12
scottj19x89:

Yeah, what kind of bitch says that she wishes she would have married somebody with more money? I thought we were past that whole "women stay home, men make the money" thing?... Oh nm, that's only when the soulsucking $#@$^%# are satisfied with their income, otherwise it's the guy's fault.

A lot of women in large cities (note: NYC) are gold diggers to certain extent.

The older men get, the more women evaluate men based on income/ wealth. However, some women cross the line and become huge bitches.

That's why, imo, if you plan on ever marrying at all, it is really important to see if the girl in question is marriage material, or just good for fucking/ brief entertainment.

2/14/12

How much does your buddy make? Also does she come from loaded parents?

2/14/12
bears1208:

How much does your buddy make? Also does she come from loaded parents?

Not sure how much he makes exactly. He works at a small fund. I don't know what he does at that fund. (not sure if he's doing asset management, operations, trading, etc)

However, my guess is he makes at least 55-60k a year.

The girl comes from upper middle class family. Her dad is a dentist. Not rich, but pretty well off.

My frat bro told me that this girl had dated several very rich men before he married her. They dated in high school, but they broke up in college, then got back together after college and got married. When this chick was in college, supposedly she dated some rich guys that come from old money... and she compares other 'rich' men she dated previously to my buddy all the time... making my buddy miserable.

One lesson I learned from my buddy's situation is NEVER marry a girl who had many dating experiences. If the girl fucked a lot of guys and dated a lot of different guys before marriage, chances are she will compare and contrast you to her 'previous lovers'. And, that would suck a lot.

I guess if you are set on marrying someone at some point, it is very important to evaluate if the girl is a marriage material or not. No matter how hot the girl is, if she's not marriage material, never marry that girl.

2/14/12

Sexy_Like_Enrique:
if she's not marriage material, never marry that girl.

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough.

"There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.

2/14/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One lesson I learned from my buddy's situation is NEVER marry a girl who had many dating experiences. If the girl fucked a lot of guys and dated a lot of different guys before marriage, chances are she will compare and contrast you to her 'previous lovers'. And, that would suck a lot.

In the wise, wise words of Jimmy Soul:
If you wanna be happy
For the rest of your life,
Never make a pretty woman your wife,
So from my personal point of view,
Get an ugly girl to marry you.

Of course, since this is extreme, too, you're just better off being realistic and evaluate closer, non?

"When I was young I thought that money was the most important thing in life; now that I am old I know that it is."
- Oscar Wilde
"Seriously, psychology is for those with two x chromosomes."
- RagnarDanneskjold

2/14/12
UncleMilty:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One lesson I learned from my buddy's situation is NEVER marry a girl who had many dating experiences. If the girl fucked a lot of guys and dated a lot of different guys before marriage, chances are she will compare and contrast you to her 'previous lovers'. And, that would suck a lot.

In the wise, wise words of Jimmy Soul:
If you wanna be happy
For the rest of your life,
Never make a pretty woman your wife,
So from my personal point of view,
Get an ugly girl to marry you.

Of course, since this is extreme, too, you're just better off being realistic and evaluate closer, non?

Nah, just get some girl who hasn't experienced life so she can have a quarter life crisis and divorce your ass to be with some college dude or something.

2/15/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One lesson I learned from my buddy's situation is NEVER marry a girl who had many dating experiences. If the girl fucked a lot of guys and dated a lot of different guys before marriage, chances are she will compare and contrast you to her 'previous lovers'. And, that would suck a lot.

Only if you're not rocking her world and making the hundred other guys she's slept with look like lames.

2/15/12
Edmundo Braverman:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One lesson I learned from my buddy's situation is NEVER marry a girl who had many dating experiences. If the girl fucked a lot of guys and dated a lot of different guys before marriage, chances are she will compare and contrast you to her 'previous lovers'. And, that would suck a lot.

Only if you're not rocking her world and making the hundred other guys she's slept with look like lames.

Imagine marrying a girl that had dated 100 men before you, and dated several very rich men who bought her expensive watches, hand bags, and other gifts. Now, you are married to this girl, and this girl is still living in that materialistic fantasy, while you are working your ass off for that 60-70k salary...

Not to mention, if the girl had way too much dating history or fucking before marriage, that implies her inability to settle down with one dude and she keeps searching for something better. This trait can't be ideal for marriage.

You see what I am saying? This is exactly what is happening to my buddy. And, I hope some of us can learn a lesson or two from this.

2/15/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Edmundo Braverman:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One lesson I learned from my buddy's situation is NEVER marry a girl who had many dating experiences. If the girl fucked a lot of guys and dated a lot of different guys before marriage, chances are she will compare and contrast you to her 'previous lovers'. And, that would suck a lot.

Only if you're not rocking her world and making the hundred other guys she's slept with look like lames.

Imagine marrying a girl that had dated 100 men before you, and dated several very rich men who bought her expensive watches, hand bags, and other gifts. Now, you are married to this girl, and this girl is still living in that materialistic fantasy, while you are working your ass off for that 60-70k salary...

Not to mention, if the girl had way too much dating history or fucking before marriage, that implies her inability to settle down with one dude and she keeps searching for something better. This trait can't be ideal for marriage.

You see what I am saying? This is exactly what is happening to my buddy. And, I hope some of us can learn a lesson or two from this.

The lesson is...make more than 70k?

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

2/15/12
Flake:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Edmundo Braverman:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One lesson I learned from my buddy's situation is NEVER marry a girl who had many dating experiences. If the girl fucked a lot of guys and dated a lot of different guys before marriage, chances are she will compare and contrast you to her 'previous lovers'. And, that would suck a lot.

Only if you're not rocking her world and making the hundred other guys she's slept with look like lames.

Imagine marrying a girl that had dated 100 men before you, and dated several very rich men who bought her expensive watches, hand bags, and other gifts. Now, you are married to this girl, and this girl is still living in that materialistic fantasy, while you are working your ass off for that 60-70k salary...

Not to mention, if the girl had way too much dating history or fucking before marriage, that implies her inability to settle down with one dude and she keeps searching for something better. This trait can't be ideal for marriage.

You see what I am saying? This is exactly what is happening to my buddy. And, I hope some of us can learn a lesson or two from this.

The lesson is...make more than 70k?

For women like this, even if you make 150-200k a year, it may not be enough.

Women like this are fantasizing about luxurious lifestyle, with a bunch of Channel & Louis Vuitton handbags, Porsche 911, expensive vacations, baller mansion, etc etc etc.

Better to stay the fuck away from women with these 'gold digging instinct'. If I meet a girl like this, and she's hot, I would just fuck her and be done with her. No serious relationship or marriage with a girl like that.

2/15/12
Flake:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Edmundo Braverman:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One lesson I learned from my buddy's situation is NEVER marry a girl who had many dating experiences. If the girl fucked a lot of guys and dated a lot of different guys before marriage, chances are she will compare and contrast you to her 'previous lovers'. And, that would suck a lot.

Only if you're not rocking her world and making the hundred other guys she's slept with look like lames.

Imagine marrying a girl that had dated 100 men before you, and dated several very rich men who bought her expensive watches, hand bags, and other gifts. Now, you are married to this girl, and this girl is still living in that materialistic fantasy, while you are working your ass off for that 60-70k salary...

Not to mention, if the girl had way too much dating history or fucking before marriage, that implies her inability to settle down with one dude and she keeps searching for something better. This trait can't be ideal for marriage.

You see what I am saying? This is exactly what is happening to my buddy. And, I hope some of us can learn a lesson or two from this.

The lesson is...make more than 70k?

BOOM. I wouldn't watch two monkeys fuck for 70 grand a year, and she's right to feel like she could've done better if she's the least bit hot.

2/15/12
Edmundo Braverman:
Flake:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Edmundo Braverman:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One lesson I learned from my buddy's situation is NEVER marry a girl who had many dating experiences. If the girl fucked a lot of guys and dated a lot of different guys before marriage, chances are she will compare and contrast you to her 'previous lovers'. And, that would suck a lot.

Only if you're not rocking her world and making the hundred other guys she's slept with look like lames.

Imagine marrying a girl that had dated 100 men before you, and dated several very rich men who bought her expensive watches, hand bags, and other gifts. Now, you are married to this girl, and this girl is still living in that materialistic fantasy, while you are working your ass off for that 60-70k salary...

Not to mention, if the girl had way too much dating history or fucking before marriage, that implies her inability to settle down with one dude and she keeps searching for something better. This trait can't be ideal for marriage.

You see what I am saying? This is exactly what is happening to my buddy. And, I hope some of us can learn a lesson or two from this.

The lesson is...make more than 70k?

BOOM. I wouldn't watch two monkeys fuck for 70 grand a year, and she's right to feel like she could've done better if she's the least bit hot.

Seriously, Eddie? That's disappointing.

2/14/12

Grabbing popcorn to wait and watch how this thread goes.

Most people do things to add days to their life. I do things to add life to my days.

Browse my blog as a WSO contributing author

2/14/12

The only thing that sucks more than marriage is a divorce. Not the being single part, mind you, (that part kicks ass) its the process of divorce that sucks. Tell him to get out NOW! The less they're married, the less spousal support he will pay. I've gone through divorce and I'm NEVER getting married again.

"If you've never considered the possibility of murder then you've never been divorced!" - Chris Titus

2/14/12

No, your friend just married a whorish bitch.

MM IB -> TMT Corporate Development

2/14/12

Well he went from a frat house to monogamy in a year. What did you expect?

2/14/12

During my senior year of college, 4 of my high school friends each got married. Then, I was like WTF. Now, 3 divorces (soon to be 4) later, LOL.

2/14/12

We've really fucked up marriage in this country (not that other countries don't have it bad as well). People rush into it like three year olds who hear the ice cream truck and then they rip open the wrapper to their overpriced Drumstick and realize it's not exactly what they expected.

Divorce is way too fucking easy. The societies that follow an arranged marriage setup have greater success because people don't expect anything out of it, and thus rarely find themselves wanting divorce. Forced love isn't a horrible proposition, because you'll always be in the best marital position (i.e. love will always grow if you know how to grow it). In this country we expect marriage to be easy, and once it gets hard we don't sit around and fight for it.

Also, just to stir the pot a bit, those who oppose homosexual marriage rights have completely lost their argument that it would ruin the "sanctity of marriage" (Rick Santorum for President!!!11!1!). OP, I wish your friend luck in his marriage, or what he has left of it anyway.

2/14/12

I always say if I ever get married before 30, I might as well give up then and there.

"...Okay you know what? I'll do one!"

2/14/12

This would be posted on Valentine's Day. My first thought when I read the title was, "Paging Dr. Braverman in 3...2...1..."

Metal. Music. Life. www.headofmetal.com

2/14/12

Did you just say frat bros?

2/14/12

Is she willing to get fucked in the ass to raise her income?

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

2/14/12
heister:

Is she willing to get fucked in the ass to raise her income?

probably only if you are rich

2/14/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
heister:

Is she willing to get fucked in the ass to raise her income?

probably only if you are rich

I was refering to me paying her money to take my dick in her ass. I dont want to date this bitch.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

2/14/12
heister:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
heister:

Is she willing to get fucked in the ass to raise her income?

probably only if you are rich

I was refering to me paying her money to take my dick in her ass. I dont want to date this bitch.

This chick is complaining that her husband is making around 60k a year... do you think she will fuck some random guys for 200-300 bucks??

Bitches like this are in for large prize, not small-time supplemental income. Talking about marrying a hot-shot surgeon clearing 500k+ a year, an I-banking VP, or a rich bastard who comes from old money.

2/15/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
heister:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
heister:

Is she willing to get fucked in the ass to raise her income?

probably only if you are rich

I was refering to me paying her money to take my dick in her ass. I dont want to date this bitch.

This chick is complaining that her husband is making around 60k a year... do you think she will fuck some random guys for 200-300 bucks??

Bitches like this are in for large prize, not small-time supplemental income. Talking about marrying a hot-shot surgeon clearing 500k+ a year, an I-banking VP, or a rich bastard who comes from old money.

He's 2 years out of school making 60k? I would be a cunt about it too.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

2/14/12

Age/2+7

2/14/12

I'm married and my wife is great. I knew her when I was poor and she has been with me the whole way. She doesn't know much about sports but doesn't bitch when I want to watch a game. She can piss me off at times cause she is a woman, but overall I'm stoked that I happened to marry a good one. So I don't think it's marriage itself that's the problem , I think it's who you marry and what it means to you that's the problem.

I was late 20's when I got married, but the premise still stands in my opinion, regardless of the age.

"It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed."

Theodore Roosevelt

2/14/12

I'm surprised no one asked this yet: what does the wife do for a living?

2/15/12
AlsatianCousin:

I'm surprised no one asked this yet: what does the wife do for a living?

She's a journalist. Not sure what kind of journalist she is. (sports journalist?)

2/15/12

^ the average income for a grad right out of school is between 30 and 40k. He's doing alright and most people not in IB or consulting will be making, at most, 60-70k at 24. A little bit of perspective goes a long way.

2/15/12
bears1208:

^ the average income for a grad right out of school is between 30 and 40k. He's doing alright and most people not in IB or consulting will be making, at most, 60-70k at 24. A little bit of perspective goes a long way.

But daddy needs new shoes =(

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

2/15/12
Flake:
bears1208:

^ the average income for a grad right out of school is between 30 and 40k. He's doing alright and most people not in IB or consulting will be making, at most, 60-70k at 24. A little bit of perspective goes a long way.

But daddy needs new shoes =(

Bitch needs to get a job and buy them herself. Especially if they don't have kids.

2/15/12
bears1208:

^ the average income for a grad right out of school is between 30 and 40k. He's doing alright and most people not in IB or consulting will be making, at most, 60-70k at 24. A little bit of perspective goes a long way.

Also you have to consider COL 60k in the Midwest/South is a lot different then 60k in NYC. Not sure where this guy lives but 60k isn't bad at all in lower COL places.

2/15/12
bears1208:

^ the average income for a grad right out of school is between 30 and 40k. He's doing alright and most people not in IB or consulting will be making, at most, 60-70k at 24. A little bit of perspective goes a long way.

Some girls, I guess, fantasize about having a luxurious lifestyle I guess... especially for this chick, since she dated some rich guys before marrying this dude, my guess is she wants a husband that can provide a baller lifestyle.

When I saw her, I could tell she was into vanity and luxury. She was carrying brand name hand bags and one time she asked her husband to buy her a brand new luxury sports car.

For marriage, the lesson for us is clear: stay the FUCK away from damaged/ used-up goods: girls who 'gold-digged' before marriage, or fucked a bunch of guys before marriage. Chances are this type of girl will constantly compare you to her previous lovers and if one of her previous men was richer or better than you in some way, she will let you know about it... which would be fucking miserable

2/15/12

There are 3 lessons here:
1. Take time to decide if you really want to get married before doing anything stupid
2. If you do want to get married, wait at least 3-5 years after college
3. Don't marry a b%*#@

It sounds like this guy swung and missed on all three of these.

I have been married almost 2 years now and overall, it has been a great experience. Sure she frustrates me sometimes, but I'm a fairly selfish jerk at times so all in she's basically a saint. So far, the good FAR outweigh the bad.

I've actually had a few opportunities to make more $ where I'd have to travel a lot and my wife actually preferred that I not take them (and I didn't). Ultimately, it was my decision, but the money didn't really matter to her.

Real moral of the story - don't marry a b%*#@

12/14/12

accountingbyday:
There are 3 lessons here:
1. Take time to decide if you really want to get married before doing anything stupid
2. If you do want to get married, wait at least 3-5 years after college
3. Don't marry a b%*#@

It sounds like this guy swung and missed on all three of these.

I have been married almost 2 years now and overall, it has been a great experience. Sure she frustrates me sometimes, but I'm a fairly selfish jerk at times so all in she's basically a saint. So far, the good FAR outweigh the bad.

I've actually had a few opportunities to make more $ where I'd have to travel a lot and my wife actually preferred that I not take them (and I didn't). Ultimately, it was my decision, but the money didn't really matter to her.

Real moral of the story - don't marry a b%*#@

I've been married a year now and am quite happy. We have no kids, and my wife actually likes working (lawyer), and will always work, even if she just does part-time when we finally have kids.
Also, another moral to this story is the pre-nup kids!! If you have any type of assets above $200k or a trust fund that you can't touch yet, make sure to protect all that. You don't need some b*tch crying to a judge that she should receive half the trust distributions or the money you earned before her because she would have had access to the money if you were still together.
1. Make sure you know you want to be married to this woman.
2. As few people ever think that divorce will happen to them, make sure you're protected on the downside.

2/15/12

Thats a terrible situation...but there are always outliers

XX

12/14/12

Just tell us what happened to you

Equities are for chumps.

12/14/12

bitter much?

12/14/12

That's a reallyyyyyyyyy good story, tell me another!

Frank Sinatra - "Alcohol may be man's worst enemy, but the bible says love your enemy."

12/14/12

@yeahright Sure - It's called the ugly barnacle. Once there was an ugly barnacle. He was so ugly that everyone died. The end.

Calm down.

12/14/12

the girl is loaded and you want to legally steal half of it ?
It happens the other way around in real life. Women take from men. Women are the "that's my money you are holding in your wallet" -type.

"I like money (as do most females) but love is...great :)"-student
Is the Bull Chasing a Bear

12/14/12

Cool story bro...

All the world's indeed a stage, And we are merely players, Performers and portrayers, Each another's audience, Outside the gilded cage
- Limelight (1981)

12/14/12

If you ain't no punk holla' we want pre-nup

I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player. Or nothing.

See my Blog & AMA

12/14/12

Word! Oh the irony if the royalties from that song ends up in the pockets of Kardashian...

It's hip to be square!

12/14/12

haha good point...I hadn't even thought of that...

I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player. Or nothing.

See my Blog & AMA

12/14/12

I wish Kanye all the best (and I ain't sayin' she a gold digger - with her baby Louis Vuitton under her underarm) but the guy makes millions from that song and now he has a kid with Kim Kardashian! 18 years, 18 years, she got one of your kids, got you for 18 years... Level of irony: beyond epic!

It's hip to be square!

12/14/12

#word

sanogee

12/14/12

Red Barchetta:

Cool story brah...

12/14/12

Are you making a question or a statement? I have a hard time figuring out the purpose...

It's hip to be square!

12/14/12

ChiSquare:

Are you making a question or a statement? I have a hard time figuring out the purpose...

good point

I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player. Or nothing.

See my Blog & AMA

12/14/12

Haha lol. Nothing happened. I actually wanted to post a pretty nice essay I found on the interwebz, but since I'm a newbie here I cannot do so.

12/14/12

ChiSquare:

Are you making a question or a statement? I have a hard time figuring out the purpose...

Both. But I am open to valid arguments. So why should you get married as a man. I seriously don't understand.

12/14/12

Have children, found a family, etc?

I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player. Or nothing.

See my Blog & AMA

12/14/12

So your children won't be called bastards.

12/14/12

I wasn't planning on getting kids. Ever. I mean I do fancy the idea of spreading my genes, but if I see the daily misery of couples that got kids... mehh not so much. Furthermore I think this is a pretty hard time to raise your kids decently. And if you can't do that, you'd better not make them in the first place imho.

12/14/12

Matrick:

Have children, found a family, etc?

It's not required to be married to have kids right? I know there are some tax benefits associated with being married, but it would not weigh up to the female-oriented divorce system I guess.

12/14/12

Nice we all just got trolled - well done.

No one would seriously frame marriage, which is SUCH a sacred institution, purely in terms of tax benefits/ROI.

Calm down.

12/14/12

Scandal:

Nice we all just got trolled - well done.

No one would seriously frame marriage, which is SUCH a sacred institution, purely in terms of tax benefits/ROI.

Wtf. I'm not trolling. And I'm agnostic so the notion of marriage being a sacred institution seems ridiculous to me. In all seriousness: why marry?

12/14/12

Scandal:

Nice we all just got trolled - well done.

No one would seriously frame marriage, which is SUCH a sacred institution, purely in terms of tax benefits/ROI.

Except for like every game blog. And they make pretty valid arguments.

"Mr. Perkins poses an extreme risk to the market when drunk."

12/14/12

MathTheMatrix:

Scandal:

Nice we all just got trolled - well done.

No one would seriously frame marriage, which is SUCH a sacred institution, purely in terms of tax benefits/ROI.

Wtf. I'm not trolling. And I'm agnostic so the notion of marriage being a sacred institution seems ridiculous to me. In all seriousness: why marry?

I think you understand why people marry. Maybe it's not for you. Fine. I don't think it's for me either. But do you really not see why marriage exists?

"Mr. Perkins poses an extreme risk to the market when drunk."

12/14/12

I doubt OP is trolling because people seem to say this stuff a lot on WSO. But something that I'm legitimately wondering is how someone can explain to a girl that they could be together forever but not get married? To me personally that just screams that you don't trust the person enough...because if you did you would get married, because you wouldn't get divorced. Or at the very least you'd sign a good prenup.

If you dive headfirst into a marriage with no prenup and you're looking to be marginally more successful than the average Joe from high school, yeah maybe you're making a mistake. But I don't understand how someone can rationalize being in a very long-term relationship and not getting married with the right precautions.

Unless this is about staying away from long-term relationships?

Am I missing something here?

12/14/12

MathTheMatrix:

Scandal:

Nice we all just got trolled - well done.

No one would seriously frame marriage, which is SUCH a sacred institution, purely in terms of tax benefits/ROI.

Wtf. I'm not trolling. And I'm agnostic so the notion of marriage being a sacred institution seems ridiculous to me. In all seriousness: why marry?

Um... love?

12/14/12

Thurnis Haley:

MathTheMatrix:
Scandal:

Nice we all just got trolled - well done.

No one would seriously frame marriage, which is SUCH a sacred institution, purely in terms of tax benefits/ROI.

Wtf. I'm not trolling. And I'm agnostic so the notion of marriage being a sacred institution seems ridiculous to me. In all seriousness: why marry?

Um... love?

Here is your love contract, sir and madam. You may now love one another officially in the eyes of the law, of the Church, and Aquaman. Have a splendid life.

"Mr. Perkins poses an extreme risk to the market when drunk."

12/14/12

Scorpion:

I doubt OP is trolling because people seem to say this stuff a lot on WSO. But something that I'm legitimately wondering is how someone can explain to a girl that they could be together forever but not get married? To me personally that just screams that you don't trust the person enough...because if you did you would get married, because you wouldn't get divorced. Or at the very least you'd sign a good prenup.

If you dive headfirst into a marriage with no prenup and you're looking to be marginally more successful than the average Joe from high school, yeah maybe you're making a mistake. But I don't understand how someone can rationalize being in a very long-term relationship and not getting married with the right precautions.

Unless this is about staying away from long-term relationships?

Am I missing something here?

I'm not sure if providing personal experiences will improve the discussion, but here I go: I'm in a relationship for 7 years now. I never wanted to be in a relationship, I just happened to really love this girl, and this unfortunately is the only way I can be with her. Typically like most girls she has always dreamed of a fairy tale wedding. And honestly I can see why. But I did ensure her that we would never get married. Because of aforementioned reasons. I do not see what the extra value of such a scary contract would be. We could throw a party anyway right? Furthermore I do not want to risk that the marriage would take away the good things about our being together (studies show women grow fat after marriage, they suddenly grow cold on you and ask for divorce, taking your money with them, etc.). Of course I'm generalizing a bit here, but that is just to show my concerns. What's wrong with happy couples that are not married?

12/14/12

MathTheMatrix:

Scorpion:

I doubt OP is trolling because people seem to say this stuff a lot on WSO. But something that I'm legitimately wondering is how someone can explain to a girl that they could be together forever but not get married? To me personally that just screams that you don't trust the person enough...because if you did you would get married, because you wouldn't get divorced. Or at the very least you'd sign a good prenup.

If you dive headfirst into a marriage with no prenup and you're looking to be marginally more successful than the average Joe from high school, yeah maybe you're making a mistake. But I don't understand how someone can rationalize being in a very long-term relationship and not getting married with the right precautions.

Unless this is about staying away from long-term relationships?

Am I missing something here?

I'm not sure if providing personal experiences will improve the discussion, but here I go: I'm in a relationship for 7 years now. I never wanted to be in a relationship, I just happened to really love this girl, and this unfortunately is the only way I can be with her. Typically like most girls she has always dreamed of a fairy tale wedding. And honestly I can see why. But I did ensure her that we would never get married. Because of aforementioned reasons. I do not see what the extra value of such a scary contract would be. We could throw a party anyway right? Furthermore I do not want to risk that the marriage would take away the good things about our being together (studies show women grow fat after marriage, they suddenly grow cold on you and ask for divorce, taking your money with them, etc.). Of course I'm generalizing a bit here, but that is just to show my concerns. What's wrong with happy couples that are not married?

So you explicitly told her? How's that working out? I'm too young to be dealing with marriage talks, but I don't know whether I'd string her along and let her try to convince me or just tell her that it's not gonna happen.

"Mr. Perkins poses an extreme risk to the market when drunk."

12/14/12

How it's working out? Well, she says she still wants to marry, but it obviously won't happen if it's not with me. She does accept my rational arguments though. And honestly it is utter BS that not marrying would imply a lesser love or something like that. Au contraire, what has love to do with a contract?

12/14/12

MathTheMatrix:

How it's working out? Well, she says she still wants to marry, but it obviously won't happen if it's not with me. She does accept my rational arguments though. And honestly it is utter BS that not marrying would imply a lesser love or something like that. Au contraire, what has love to do with a contract?

Right, I agree.
How do you see your relationship having told her vs. saying you're open to it some day but not now and having her try to win your affection with greater vigor?

"Mr. Perkins poses an extreme risk to the market when drunk."

12/14/12

Love is 2 minutes of squelching noises.

12/14/12

What about marriage do you claim tends to change people? I think it's an interesting point to make that one could keep the relationship stronger by NOT getting married, but I'm skeptical of the underlying reasons there. You made valid points about how partners can change after marriage, but assuming your girlfriend does not change, doesn't that mean 1. She's always secretly hoping for marriage, or 2. She wouldn't have changed after marriage anyway? If that's the case, it seems the rational steps are to get married or to break off the relationship (unless you're cool with stringing them along). Or is there another reason I'm missing?

Judging by your username, your Euler profile pic, and your posts, you are a pretty rational guy. I just want to know how you address these issues because I am also a pretty apathetically rational guy and it's stuff I seriously wonder about too (I'm not one of those screw-as-many-girls-as-possible dudes, find it kind of boring tbh).

12/14/12

You make some good points, Neo. The matrix is all around us, but is it real? Your girlfriend looks like a piece of meat from the outside, but we all know she's just a system created by the Oracle. Nothing is real.

12/14/12

MathTheMatrix:

How it's working out? Well, she says she still wants to marry, but it obviously won't happen if it's not with me. She does accept my rational arguments though. And honestly it is utter BS that not marrying would imply a lesser love or something like that. Au contraire, what has love to do with a contract?

You seem pretty convinced she's agreeing with you rather than hoping she'll change your mind. And what happens once she realizes it won't happen? You think you're so amazing that she'll compromise her own goals in life? Your personal feelings about marriage aren't any more valid than hers. Maybe you should find someone that also doesn't want marriage. You may have no choice once she dumps you.

12/14/12

Leaving someone just because he doesn't want to marry you is pretty pathetic and stupid. What is more important in life: being with someone you love, or being married to someone even if he's not your favorite choice. I really estimate her to be smarter than that.

Furthermore I think that with decisions like these, in case of disagreement you should live by the rule: when in doubt, don't. If one wants kids and the other doesn't, then don't make kids. It's ridiculous. Same for marriage, imho.

12/14/12

Mach 10:

So your children won't be called bastards.

Jon Snow still bitter?

12/14/12

Thurnis Haley:

MathTheMatrix:

How it's working out? Well, she says she still wants to marry, but it obviously won't happen if it's not with me. She does accept my rational arguments though. And honestly it is utter BS that not marrying would imply a lesser love or something like that. Au contraire, what has love to do with a contract?

You seem pretty convinced she's agreeing with you rather than hoping she'll change your mind. And what happens once she realizes it won't happen? You think you're so amazing that she'll compromise her own goals in life? Your personal feelings about marriage aren't any more valid than hers. Maybe you should find someone that also doesn't want marriage. You may have no choice once she dumps you.

Why is it his burden to find someone else given the chance that her feelers will be hurt after she fails to convert him after he tells her his intentions?

"Mr. Perkins poses an extreme risk to the market when drunk."

12/14/12

In the end its pretty simple. She wants to get married. You don't. Is your disdain for marriage greater than her desire for it? If you're so set against being married then get used to the idea that you're probably going to grow old alone. Most women want to get married. They've been dreaming about it their whole lives. So if keeping this ideal of anti-marriage in your head going is worth losing this girl, or any girl really, then go for it. Have fun. Or don't.

12/14/12

Scorpion:

What about marriage do you claim tends to change people? I think it's an interesting point to make that one could keep the relationship stronger by NOT getting married, but I'm skeptical of the underlying reasons there. You made valid points about how partners can change after marriage, but assuming your girlfriend does not change, doesn't that mean 1. She's always secretly hoping for marriage, or 2. She wouldn't have changed after marriage anyway? If that's the case, it seems the rational steps are to get married or to break off the relationship (unless you're cool with stringing them along). Or is there another reason I'm missing?

Judging by your username, your Euler profile pic, and your posts, you are a pretty rational guy. I just want to know how you address these issues because I am also a pretty apathetically rational guy and it's stuff I seriously wonder about too (I'm not one of those screw-as-many-girls-as-possible dudes, find it kind of boring tbh).

Marriage does change people. Heck even a relationship changes people. Maybe it's hard to admit, but most people tend to slack a little when they're in a relationship, which is almost perfectly natural. You can't be on your best behavior all the time after a year, which is okay, because it leads to a more honest display of who you are.

I love my girlfriend, I do not love my relationship.

A relationship has some serious advantages over being single, among other things it can provide love, caring, support, tranquility of mind etc. etc. But at the same time the urgency to be at top of your game, physically for example decreases a bit (something which empirical studies show explicitly for women).

As for the hoping... I am hoping to have a foursome with 4 pretty models. I do not think my girlfriend will approve, but that sure doesn't make me want to leave her immediately.

12/14/12

rjroberts1:

In the end its pretty simple. She wants to get married. You don't. Is your disdain for marriage greater than her desire for it? If you're so set against being married then get used to the idea that you're probably going to grow old alone. Most women want to get married. They've been dreaming about it their whole lives. So if keeping this ideal of anti-marriage in your head going is worth losing this girl, or any girl really, then go for it. Have fun. Or don't.

Many of the traditional reasons why a man gets married are a myth.

"I won't die alone"
Wrong. The simple fact is that one spouse WILL die alone. Visit the hospital and go to the terminally ill or cardiac departments. Few people have the time to sit with an ill relative all day and all night. Yes, you may get visitors, but they aren't having the same thoughts as you are. You're contemplating your mortality, while they're wondering what food the hospital cafeteria offers. In the end, even with a loving and supportive family, most of us will leave this world alone, unless you both die simultaneously in an accident of some kind. Your spouse may die fifteen years before you, or you may be in the hospital for your last year. Ultimately, we all die alone. Married or not.

"I won't grow old alone"
Not necessarily. A marriage can self-destruct at any time. Your partner may initiate divorce at age 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65 or 70. Many married people end up in the same position (alone) as if they had never married at all. Now they enter their twilight years broke, as a result of being stripped of half or more of their life's assets, losing half their retirement and pension funds, and being assessed alimony payments. Experiencing financial devastation from one divorce often may preclude a man from ever marrying again. This is a common observation of many middle-aged Western Women. Q: "Where are all the men?". A: "He is broke from the divorce settlement, alimony and child support payments." Thus these women don't find him marriable, and he grows old alone and poor.

Men are led to believe that not marrying implies only one destiny; that of a solitary monk in a cave, a shunned loner. However, life is not so black and white. Not marrying does not mean you cannot continue to date or have meaningful relationships throughout your life. There are plenty of single people in all age brackets. A bad marriage can be the loneliest of institutions, because most of your emotional outlet and companionship is concentrated into one person who gives back nothing in emotion, affection or support. Young men in their 20's and 30's should be more aware of the alternatives that exist in life. They should be aware that marriage is a choice, and is not the only path life has to offer. An informed decision is less likely to be one that is later regretted.

(from dontmarry ^dot^ wordpress ^dot^ com)

12/14/12

You sound like you're about 19.

12/14/12

prospie:

You sound like you're about 19.

Thanks :) eloquent reply btw.

12/14/12

You would never bet half your net worth on a single trade at work, why do it elsewhere?

12/14/12

prospie:

You sound like you're about 19.

I was thinking the same thing until the 7 year relationship comment. Now i'm thinking 22 max.

12/14/12

lower taxes my friend!

12/14/12

Beny23:

lower taxes my friend!

May as well marry some Brazilian chick if you just want lower taxes. Greencard for her and you can fuck whoever you want; including her.

"Mr. Perkins poses an extreme risk to the market when drunk."

12/14/12

MathTheMatrix:

Leaving someone just because he doesn't want to marry you is pretty pathetic and stupid. What is more important in life: being with someone you love, or being married to someone even if he's not your favorite choice. I really estimate her to be smarter than that.

Furthermore I think that with decisions like these, in case of disagreement you should live by the rule: when in doubt, don't. If one wants kids and the other doesn't, then don't make kids. It's ridiculous. Same for marriage, imho.

You're sounding really silly about this. It's pathetic and stupid to recognize that someone doesn't have the same long term goals as you? So I take it you don't really care about the long term here. Fine. But it seems obvious that she DOES. I'm not even criticizing you for not wanting to get married. That's a personal choice (plus I'm not sure I ever want to get married either). I'm just gathering from the limited information you have posted that both of you believe you will change eachothers values. You may change your mind about marriage, but my experience with women is that they absolutely never budge on that issue. When you are in your early to mid 30s your value will still be increasing, while her value will be decreasing. And she WILL realize that. If she really wants a family she'll see her time is running out. And as far as your last paragraph, so if there's a disagreement in your relationship you want the default choice to be whatever YOU want? You sound like a keeper. I'm done with this. You have the maturity of a 16 year old.

12/14/12

Completely agree with this comment and sentiment. Very infantile perspective.

12/14/12

I love all of the marriage hate on here, when you consider that most of the people on here have a vastly higher view of themselves than what anyone else does. The level of narcissism on this forum makes me smile.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

12/14/12

Thurnis Haley:
And as far as your last paragraph, so if there's a disagreement in your relationship you want the default choice to be whatever YOU want? You sound like a keeper. I'm done with this. You have the maturity of a 16 year old.

Read again please. I state that when one wants no children while the other does want children: they should not get kids. There is perfect symmetry: whether I am the one who wants to have kids or it is her: if there is a disagreement please do not have kids. It's unethical and stupid to make kids when you don't want to have them. It is disappointing to want to have kids and not have them.
12/14/12

Thurnis Haley:
You're sounding really silly about this. It's pathetic and stupid to recognize that someone doesn't have the same long term goals as you? So I take it you don't really care about the long term here. Fine. But it seems obvious that she DOES.

No, having different long term goals is ok. I said it is pathetic to leave the so-called ' love of your life' just based on the fact that he does not want to marry and then marry someone else, almost just for the sake of marrying.

12/14/12

I don't understand marriage and really see the point. If you wanna be with someone then thats cool, but there is no point in getting legally married and signing contracts and all that bullshit. I wouldn't mind living with someone but I'm never getting married.

12/14/12

MathTheMatrix:

Why on earth would you get married? Unless the girl is loaded and you want to legally steal half of it.... I notice that there is a lot of societal pressure to get married, but honestly it has a negative expected value.

There are good relationships and bad ones. The disadvantage of a marriage in case of a bad relationship is obvious while the advantage in case of a good relationship is highly dubious.

People that measure marriage in "expected value" terms probably will never get it.

I hate victims who respect their executioners

12/14/12

Why not look at it from an expected value point ? I mean, that's how girls look at it. Marriage is an economic pact.

"I like money (as do most females) but love is...great :)"-student
Is the Bull Chasing a Bear

12/14/12

SirTradesaLot:

Red Barchetta:

Cool story brah...

Get busy living

12/14/12

BlackHat:

MathTheMatrix:

Why on earth would you get married? Unless the girl is loaded and you want to legally steal half of it.... I notice that there is a lot of societal pressure to get married, but honestly it has a negative expected value.

There are good relationships and bad ones. The disadvantage of a marriage in case of a bad relationship is obvious while the advantage in case of a good relationship is highly dubious.

People that measure marriage in "expected value" terms probably will never get it.

Given the relatively high divorce rate around the world, I'd expect a lot of people at least try...

I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player. Or nothing.

See my Blog & AMA

12/14/12

Marriage, kids etc are all EMOTIONAL decisions, and are very rarely- if ever- logical in the way that you're analyzing them.

12/14/12

Looks at OP's post count.

Successful troll post is successful.

12/14/12

@ChiSquare

Wow, I know somebody paying child support for one of his kids...his baby mother's car and home are bigger than his!

Calm down.

12/14/12

ChiSquare:

I wish Kanye all the best (and I ain't sayin' she a gold digger - with her baby Louis Vuitton under her underarm) but the guy makes millions from that song and now he has a kid with Kim Kardashian! 18 years, 18 years, she got one of your kids, got you for 18 years... Level of irony: beyond epic!

How is it ironic? Song's about golddiggers. I think Kim's doing okay.

And why is every active thread about marriage and depression?

"Mr. Perkins poses an extreme risk to the market when drunk."

12/14/12

ChiSquare:

I wish Kanye all the best (and I ain't sayin' she a gold digger - with her baby Louis Vuitton under her underarm) but the guy makes millions from that song and now he has a kid with Kim Kardashian! 18 years, 18 years, she got one of your kids, got you for 18 years... Level of irony: beyond epic!

Pretty sure she doesn't need Kanye's money

12/14/12

Bobb:

ChiSquare:

I wish Kanye all the best (and I ain't sayin' she a gold digger - with her baby Louis Vuitton under her underarm) but the guy makes millions from that song and now he has a kid with Kim Kardashian! 18 years, 18 years, she got one of your kids, got you for 18 years... Level of irony: beyond epic!

Pretty sure she doesn't need Kanye's money

She probably doesn't. She probably isn't a gold digger either - don't know much about her except that she is pretty, her dad got O.J. off, and she had a really short marriage to an NBA player. I just really like the joke so I reached a bit...

It's hip to be square!

12/14/12

As far as Gold diggers go, he upgrade from Amber Rose to Kim. Not a bad move in terms of that.

I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player. Or nothing.

See my Blog & AMA

12/14/12

OP sounds like he's never had a girlfriend. It's easy to spew out principles on the internet, but when the girl you love wants to get married it's hard to say no to her. Simple as that.

12/14/12

For all the naysayers regarding marriage...research has overwhelmingly shown that a "loving" relationship in a marriage provides a sh*tload of beneficial factors, such as lower chances of heart attacks and even cancer. And even when one may experience such a health scare, married patients survived and recovered substantially faster than unmarrieds, cohabitors, and widowers. So your overall health and life outcome depends on a good marriage (and not just a good shackup with a hot bod).

Marriage provides a safe, supportive, healthy environment for children and their life outcomes in education, career and future marital prospects by a wide margin compared to kids raised in a single family home. Marriage enables and forces one to grow the hell up! Life seems to be saying: "It's not all about you, a**hole!" It focuses not on oneself but the other, and futur family of kids and community, as well as learning the hardest lesson in life: getting along with the in laws.

As for me, marriage is with the person who will still chase after me, hobbling along with the cane when I'm gray haired and wrinkled as I try to outrun him in the motorized wheelchair. Who will you be able to discuss where to purchase the family plot? Oh, I'm sure it's that blond, buxom model all you guys want and will be JUST the person to have such a talk.

12/14/12

He is right there is no solid argument for a man, especially when you are making a lot of money, to marry. It is even stupid to do so. But this changes if you have children, then you should marry because in the case that your girlfriend would leave you there a legal disadvantages for you to see your kids in comparison to a married man.

Don't say this in a banking interview:

Which superhero would you be and why? I want to be like Robin Hood, stealing from the rich and giving to the poor - me.

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2/15/12

The lesson is DONT FUCKING GET MARRIED

Seriously. I'm going through a divorce right now and the whole process will turn any woman into a beast from hell! On top of that, you get these lawyers whispering in their ear about how they need to go after this, go after that, etc. The fact that there is no such thing as a "good" divorce story should tell you that being in a marriage is a bad idea. It's not in human nature to be married - it's a MASSIVE mistake.

2/15/12
GentlemanJack:

The lesson is DONT FUCKING GET MARRIED

Seriously. I'm going through a divorce right now and the whole process will turn any woman into a beast from hell! On top of that, you get these lawyers whispering in their ear about how they need to go after this, go after that, etc. The fact that there is no such thing as a "good" divorce story should tell you that being in a marriage is a bad idea. It's not in human nature to be married - it's a MASSIVE mistake.

Scary shit. I think there needs to be vesting schedule for wives, like with your 401k and deferred comp.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

2/15/12
GentlemanJack:

The lesson is DONT FUCKING GET MARRIED

Seriously. I'm going through a divorce right now and the whole process will turn any woman into a beast from hell! On top of that, you get these lawyers whispering in their ear about how they need to go after this, go after that, etc. The fact that there is no such thing as a "good" divorce story should tell you that being in a marriage is a bad idea. It's not in human nature to be married - it's a MASSIVE mistake.

If it didn't work out for you, then it won't work out for anybody! amirite?

-_-

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough.

"There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.

2/15/12
scottj19x89:
GentlemanJack:

The lesson is DONT FUCKING GET MARRIED

Seriously. I'm going through a divorce right now and the whole process will turn any woman into a beast from hell! On top of that, you get these lawyers whispering in their ear about how they need to go after this, go after that, etc. The fact that there is no such thing as a "good" divorce story should tell you that being in a marriage is a bad idea. It's not in human nature to be married - it's a MASSIVE mistake.

If it didn't work out for you, then it won't work out for anybody! amirite?

-_-

OK, then go ahead and tell me a story of a friendly divorce. As soon as you can tell me one, I'll retract my previous post.

2/15/12
GentlemanJack:
scottj19x89:
GentlemanJack:

The lesson is DONT FUCKING GET MARRIED

Seriously. I'm going through a divorce right now and the whole process will turn any woman into a beast from hell! On top of that, you get these lawyers whispering in their ear about how they need to go after this, go after that, etc. The fact that there is no such thing as a "good" divorce story should tell you that being in a marriage is a bad idea. It's not in human nature to be married - it's a MASSIVE mistake.

If it didn't work out for you, then it won't work out for anybody! amirite?

-_-

OK, then go ahead and tell me a story of a friendly divorce. As soon as you can tell me one, I'll retract my previous post.

I was talking more about your stance on marriage in general. And I actually do know a couple that's getting divorced and are working it out outside of court, the girl isn't trying to get anything out of it and the guy isn't either. They're just trying to go back to how it was before they met. Though I'm with you with those god damned lawyers. God I hate them, unless they're defending me. They could know that you're the nicest guy in the world and they'll still try to fuck you out of everything you have if your wife has the loot to pay for it.

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough.

"There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.

2/15/12
GentlemanJack:

The lesson is DONT FUCKING GET MARRIED

Seriously. I'm going through a divorce right now and the whole process will turn any woman into a beast from hell! On top of that, you get these lawyers whispering in their ear about how they need to go after this, go after that, etc. The fact that there is no such thing as a "good" divorce story should tell you that being in a marriage is a bad idea. It's not in human nature to be married - it's a MASSIVE mistake.

This sounds truly awful, man. I am sure I won't get married at least until I am 35 years old. I might want to settle down by then... with a 22 year old fresh college girl

2/15/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
GentlemanJack:

The lesson is DONT FUCKING GET MARRIED

Seriously. I'm going through a divorce right now and the whole process will turn any woman into a beast from hell! On top of that, you get these lawyers whispering in their ear about how they need to go after this, go after that, etc. The fact that there is no such thing as a "good" divorce story should tell you that being in a marriage is a bad idea. It's not in human nature to be married - it's a MASSIVE mistake.

This sounds truly awful, man. I am sure I won't get married at least until I am 35 years old. I might want to settle down by then... with a 22 year old fresh college girl

I wouldn't do that man. I would find me an older woman that already has her own house and all her own shit squared away. In this scenario, you might have to forgo having kids (as I have) but if you care about your sanity, it's the way to go. The last few women I've dated, and my current one, are older, have their shit together and don't care about how much I make or building assets together. I want the woman that already fleeced her ex-husband, I'm not looking to be the ex-husband who gave it all up. When you put that out of the equation, the relationship is much better.

2/15/12

Personally, I'm a bit jaded after I saw a train wreck of a divorce. It revolves around my ex-gf's family. Her dad had one of the nicest, and sunniest dispositions I've ever seen - a genuine nice guy. Super successful (Big Law Partner + Family Money, 8 figs NW). He was also one of those dudes that genuinely loved his wife, always surprising her and doing spontaneous shit that you only see in chick flicks. He was a total anomaly - at least among the guys I know.

One day his long-term wife sits down with him and gives him the news. She said that over the past 10 years she cheated on him with 4 or 5 different guys and that she was leaving him to be with her current boy toy. She destroyed the family and totally took him to the cleaners. I mean fucking ROBBED him of close to 50%. She didn't have a divorce lawyer, she had a divorce legal team. No joke. The dude still had plenty to live on - but has never been the same mentally. Last I heard he's still a train wreck (can't leave the house and whatnot). His divorce was over 2 years ago too.

I know some of you others guys might think this is an extreme outlier, but for someone who saw it happen - it was pretty damn frightening.

2/15/12
RagnarDanneskjold:

Personally, I'm a bit jaded after I saw a train wreck of a divorce. It revolves around my ex-gf's family. Her dad had one of the nicest, and sunniest dispositions I've ever seen - a genuine nice guy. Super successful (Big Law Partner + Family Money, 8 figs NW). He was also one of those dudes that genuinely loved his wife, always surprising her and doing spontaneous shit that you only see in chick flicks. He was a total anomaly - at least among the guys I know.

One day his long-term wife sits down with him and gives him the news. She said that over the past 10 years she cheated on him with 4 or 5 different guys and that she was leaving him to be with her current boy toy. She destroyed the family and totally took him to the cleaners. I mean fucking ROBBED him of close to 50%. She didn't have a divorce lawyer, she had a divorce legal team. No joke. The dude still had plenty to live on - but has never been the same mentally. Last I heard he's still a train wreck (can't leave the house and whatnot). His divorce was over 2 years ago too.

I know some of you others guys might think this is an extreme outlier, but for someone who saw it happen - it was pretty damn frightening.

You know what's even scarier? This story is VERY common. I'm guessing that with 8 figure NW she didn't work AND it was a long term marriage. So that entitles her to UPFRONT spousal support payments AND legal fees. So that legal team that you mentioned was probably paid by him. Let that sink in a little - YOU pay for the same legal team that is out to get you. That will cause you to lose sleep many, many nights.

The long term marriage sucks too because now she is entitled to spousal support for the rest of her life or until she is married again. Guess which option she's going to choose?

Divorce is the worst fucking thing in the world. I have no doubt your story is true and it happens all over America on a daily basis.

2/15/12

.

2/16/12
RagnarDanneskjold:

Personally, I'm a bit jaded after I saw a train wreck of a divorce. It revolves around my ex-gf's family. Her dad had one of the nicest, and sunniest dispositions I've ever seen - a genuine nice guy. Super successful (Big Law Partner + Family Money, 8 figs NW). He was also one of those dudes that genuinely loved his wife, always surprising her and doing spontaneous shit that you only see in chick flicks. He was a total anomaly - at least among the guys I know.

One day his long-term wife sits down with him and gives him the news. She said that over the past 10 years she cheated on him with 4 or 5 different guys and that she was leaving him to be with her current boy toy. She destroyed the family and totally took him to the cleaners. I mean fucking ROBBED him of close to 50%. She didn't have a divorce lawyer, she had a divorce legal team. No joke. The dude still had plenty to live on - but has never been the same mentally. Last I heard he's still a train wreck (can't leave the house and whatnot). His divorce was over 2 years ago too.

I know some of you others guys might think this is an extreme outlier, but for someone who saw it happen - it was pretty damn frightening.

If she confessed to infidelity, how did she get away with getting close to 50% of his assets? Must have been a good legal team ...

I have heard and seen too many scary stories about marriage to ever consider it without getting an ironclad pre-nup. Unfortunately pre-nups aren't enforceable in the UK and hence I will probably never get married. Long term gf knows that, and it causes problems coz she wants to get married eventually and sometimes wonders what the point of the relationship is if I'll never change my mind.

But I refuse to budge. Worked too hard to give someone the cheap option of taking me to the cleaners.

2/16/12
RagnarDanneskjold:

Personally, I'm a bit jaded after I saw a train wreck of a divorce. It revolves around my ex-gf's family. Her dad had one of the nicest, and sunniest dispositions I've ever seen - a genuine nice guy. Super successful (Big Law Partner + Family Money, 8 figs NW). He was also one of those dudes that genuinely loved his wife, always surprising her and doing spontaneous shit that you only see in chick flicks. He was a total anomaly - at least among the guys I know.

One day his long-term wife sits down with him and gives him the news. She said that over the past 10 years she cheated on him with 4 or 5 different guys and that she was leaving him to be with her current boy toy. She destroyed the family and totally took him to the cleaners. I mean fucking ROBBED him of close to 50%. She didn't have a divorce lawyer, she had a divorce legal team. No joke. The dude still had plenty to live on - but has never been the same mentally. Last I heard he's still a train wreck (can't leave the house and whatnot). His divorce was over 2 years ago too.

I know some of you others guys might think this is an extreme outlier, but for someone who saw it happen - it was pretty damn frightening.

Is this why you left the ex-gf? You knew she will only inherit half of the 8 figs NW. =P

TraderDaily:

I'm surprised he didn't know she was that way beforehand. I hear the ideal age for marriage is for men 30. For women, it's 24. Both of them sound too young for it.

24!!!! =O

2/15/12

Geez, someone mentioned grabbing the popcorn, but I'm reaching for a bottle of pills...

Metal. Music. Life. www.headofmetal.com

2/15/12

70 grand a year is respectable, I kinda sorta wish that I could look down on people making it, but at the same time I don't.

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough.

"There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.

2/15/12
scottj19x89:

70 grand a year is respectable, I kinda sorta wish that I could look down on people making it, but at the same time I don't.

Why would you kinda sorta want to be a douche bag?

2/15/12

I'm surprised he didn't know she was that way beforehand. I hear the ideal age for marriage is for men 30. For women, it's 24. Both of them sound too young for it.

2/15/12

Am I hopeless for wanting to be married?

Most people do things to add days to their life. I do things to add life to my days.

Browse my blog as a WSO contributing author

2/15/12
A Posse Ad Esse:

Am I hopeless for wanting to be married?

I think you already know the answer to that.

Don't worry, i'm sure i'll end up married to some fat bitch who I don't like who yells at me about the fact that I only make 160k and can't pay for her personal shopper, my stupid kids private school, and a trip to fiji.

2/15/12

Just cause, like I said, 70k is a respectable amount of income and if I was making so much that I got to the point where I thought otherwise, I'd be makin some phat cash. Though I hope money would never do that to me.

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough.

"There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.

2/15/12

2/15/12

Find the right girl...mine doesn't want kids (and I don't) and has made my life on the road consulting a hell of a lot easier. I get home, the place is in order, I have food, laundry, and she has her own job, covers her expenses (even though I made a fair bit more). Granted I tend to spend my money on her, 'cause what the hell else is money really for if not to be spent, and it makes her happy (though she never expects it).

Granted even after 3 years there is no ring on that finger 'cause I already have enough expenses, but it's a plan.

2/16/12

I was joking, guys.

Sarcasm fail on my part.

2/16/12

Thanks for clarifying, Eddie. Shoulda known.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo-YVqV0v4Q

2/16/12

Pre-nups do exist in the UK and there are ways to enforce them. I met with lawyers last month to discuss about it (work related, just in case you wanted to ask). So you might still get married :)

2/16/12
damngringo:

Pre-nups do exist in the UK and there are ways to enforce them. I met with lawyers last month to discuss about it (work related, just in case you wanted to ask). So you might still get married :)

Really? Do tell ...

2/16/12

I don't get this.

If I get a divorce, I expect to split stuff down the middle (in fact, because I have kids, I'd be looking to give her more than half being that she's the primary caregiver). Also, she gets the house. I find this incredibly reasonable, I fail to understand how guys get petty and try to hold out on those things.

I also believe in a no-fault divorce - infidelity or otherwise, everyone has a right to be happy. If she's not happy with me she should walk (yeah, and take half).

What I may struggle with is if I'm expected to give her from my future earnings, that would suck balls.

I read something not too long ago about renewable marriage contracts which I think makes a ton of sense. Temporary contracts, either towards procreation or say a limited term (2, 5 years renewable), instead of this legacy "till death do us part" ish which no longer works.

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

2/16/12
Anomanderis:

I don't get this.

If I get a divorce, I expect to split stuff down the middle (in fact, because I have kids, I'd be looking to give her more than half being that she's the primary caregiver). Also, she gets the house. I find this incredibly reasonable, I fail to understand how guys get petty and try to hold out on those things.

I also believe in a no-fault divorce - infidelity or otherwise, everyone has a right to be happy. If she's not happy with me she should walk (yeah, and take half).

What I may struggle with is if I'm expected to give her from my future earnings, that would suck balls.

I read something not too long ago about renewable marriage contracts which I think makes a ton of sense. Temporary contracts, either towards procreation or say a limited term (2, 5 years renewable), instead of this legacy "till death do us part" ish which no longer works.

I know this is going to sound bad any way I say it, but I don't mean it offensively - you are incredibly naive. Allow me to clue you in.

1 - It's not about splitting stuff down the middle, it's about keeping each other in the lifestyle that you create for yourself. What does that mean? If you have a wife that stays at home with the kids, that means that the divorce has to put her in a place where she can live on her own with the kids and still not work. So that means you would have to pay for her to have the same things she had before - the house would only be the beginning. You would have to pay for her cars, clothes, food, household expenses, etc.

2 - There are "short term" and "long term" marriages. It varies by state, but a long term marriage is usually over ten years. That means that if you are in a long term marriage she will get spousal support from you FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE. Keep in mind that this is just spousal support . . . you'll be writing a second check for the child support. In any case, you are responsible for spousal support for at least half the length of the marriage. So let's say you're married for 8 years - you'll be paying spousal support for a minimum of 4 years, no less than that and it may be more. So you can kiss a good part of your future earnings goodbye.

3 - "But she has money!" you'll say. "She doesn't need spousal support!". That doesn't matter. ANY time there is a disparity in income you will pay spousal support. She could make 200K/year and you could make 250K/year and you'll still owe her money. In fact, if the disparity is large enough, you'll pay her that AND her lawyer fees. As I said before in this thread - let that feeling sink in for a bit . . . YOU will pay HER to hire lawyers to come after YOU. And that's on top of fees for your own lawyer. I had a "cheap" divorce - my lawyer fees are going to be in the 8K range and I'm in a non-metro area. In a long term marriage with kids in the picture, most lawyers wouldn't even consider you for anything less than 10K upfront, total fees are variable - in a metro area, no one would consider taking you on for less than 20K upfront.

So you want to know why divorce sucks? Here's how it all unravels: You're at work one day and the secretary tells you that there's a Sheriff to see you. He hands you a stack of papers, known as a 30-day subpoena, that you sign for. A day later, the same Sheriff shows up with notice of hearing that's next week for what's known as temporary spousal support and lawyer fees hearing. So now you have to scramble to retain a lawyer and he wants cash money upfront. You'll also have to make a first appearance fee with the court of about $500. From there you go to the hearing, the wife's lawyer makes her case for no income and no money for fees. The court will ask for your pay stubs and then the judge hands down an order for temporary support and lawyer fees. Now you're responsible for your lawyer, her lawyer AND you have to give her cash-money every month. Don't comply and they will garnish your very next paycheck. Everything in this paragraph goes down in the span of about 10 days and your world is turned upside down and you're in hell for the next 3 years.

Get the picture?

2/16/12
GentlemanJack:
Anomanderis:

I don't get this.

If I get a divorce, I expect to split stuff down the middle (in fact, because I have kids, I'd be looking to give her more than half being that she's the primary caregiver). Also, she gets the house. I find this incredibly reasonable, I fail to understand how guys get petty and try to hold out on those things.

I also believe in a no-fault divorce - infidelity or otherwise, everyone has a right to be happy. If she's not happy with me she should walk (yeah, and take half).

What I may struggle with is if I'm expected to give her from my future earnings, that would suck balls.

I read something not too long ago about renewable marriage contracts which I think makes a ton of sense. Temporary contracts, either towards procreation or say a limited term (2, 5 years renewable), instead of this legacy "till death do us part" ish which no longer works.

I know this is going to sound bad any way I say it, but I don't mean it offensively - you are incredibly naive. Allow me to clue you in.

1 - It's not about splitting stuff down the middle, it's about keeping each other in the lifestyle that you create for yourself. What does that mean? If you have a wife that stays at home with the kids, that means that the divorce has to put her in a place where she can live on her own with the kids and still not work. So that means you would have to pay for her to have the same things she had before - the house would only be the beginning. You would have to pay for her cars, clothes, food, household expenses, etc.

2 - There are "short term" and "long term" marriages. It varies by state, but a long term marriage is usually over ten years. That means that if you are in a long term marriage she will get spousal support from you FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE. Keep in mind that this is just spousal support . . . you'll be writing a second check for the child support. In any case, you are responsible for spousal support for at least half the length of the marriage. So let's say you're married for 8 years - you'll be paying spousal support for a minimum of 4 years, no less than that and it may be more. So you can kiss a good part of your future earnings goodbye.

3 - "But she has money!" you'll say. "She doesn't need spousal support!". That doesn't matter. ANY time there is a disparity in income you will pay spousal support. She could make 200K/year and you could make 250K/year and you'll still owe her money. In fact, if the disparity is large enough, you'll pay her that AND her lawyer fees. As I said before in this thread - let that feeling sink in for a bit . . . YOU will pay HER to hire lawyers to come after YOU. And that's on top of fees for your own lawyer. I had a "cheap" divorce - my lawyer fees are going to be in the 8K range and I'm in a non-metro area. In a long term marriage with kids in the picture, most lawyers wouldn't even consider you for anything less than 10K upfront, total fees are variable - in a metro area, no one would consider taking you on for less than 20K upfront.

So you want to know why divorce sucks? Here's how it all unravels: You're at work one day and the secretary tells you that there's a Sheriff to see you. He hands you a stack of papers, known as a 30-day subpoena, that you sign for. A day later, the same Sheriff shows up with notice of hearing that's next week for what's known as temporary spousal support and lawyer fees hearing. So now you have to scramble to retain a lawyer and he wants cash money upfront. You'll also have to make a first appearance fee with the court of about $500. From there you go to the hearing, the wife's lawyer makes her case for no income and no money for fees. The court will ask for your pay stubs and then the judge hands down an order for temporary support and lawyer fees. Now you're responsible for your lawyer, her lawyer AND you have to give her cash-money every month. Don't comply and they will garnish your very next paycheck. Everything in this paragraph goes down in the span of about 10 days and your world is turned upside down and you're in hell for the next 3 years.

Get the picture?

Who maintains the lifestyle you were used to? i.e. getting food made, getting the house cleaned, having sex. If you don't get to keep those things, why should she get to keep all of her luxuries?

-MBP

2/16/12
manbearpig:

Who maintains the lifestyle you were used to? i.e. getting food made, getting the house cleaned, having sex. If you don't get to keep those things, why should she get to keep all of her luxuries?

You are making a very sane & reasonable argument for this. The only problem is that divorces DO NOT involve sanity or reason in any way, shape or form :). Trust me, it's just about the worst thing in the world, I'm NEVER going through that again.

2/16/12
GentlemanJack:
Anomanderis:

I don't get this.

If I get a divorce, I expect to split stuff down the middle (in fact, because I have kids, I'd be looking to give her more than half being that she's the primary caregiver). Also, she gets the house. I find this incredibly reasonable, I fail to understand how guys get petty and try to hold out on those things.

I also believe in a no-fault divorce - infidelity or otherwise, everyone has a right to be happy. If she's not happy with me she should walk (yeah, and take half).

What I may struggle with is if I'm expected to give her from my future earnings, that would suck balls.

I read something not too long ago about renewable marriage contracts which I think makes a ton of sense. Temporary contracts, either towards procreation or say a limited term (2, 5 years renewable), instead of this legacy "till death do us part" ish which no longer works.

I know this is going to sound bad any way I say it, but I don't mean it offensively - you are incredibly naive. Allow me to clue you in.

1 - It's not about splitting stuff down the middle, it's about keeping each other in the lifestyle that you create for yourself. What does that mean? If you have a wife that stays at home with the kids, that means that the divorce has to put her in a place where she can live on her own with the kids and still not work. So that means you would have to pay for her to have the same things she had before - the house would only be the beginning. You would have to pay for her cars, clothes, food, household expenses, etc.

2 - There are "short term" and "long term" marriages. It varies by state, but a long term marriage is usually over ten years. That means that if you are in a long term marriage she will get spousal support from you FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE. Keep in mind that this is just spousal support . . . you'll be writing a second check for the child support. In any case, you are responsible for spousal support for at least half the length of the marriage. So let's say you're married for 8 years - you'll be paying spousal support for a minimum of 4 years, no less than that and it may be more. So you can kiss a good part of your future earnings goodbye.

3 - "But she has money!" you'll say. "She doesn't need spousal support!". That doesn't matter. ANY time there is a disparity in income you will pay spousal support. She could make 200K/year and you could make 250K/year and you'll still owe her money. In fact, if the disparity is large enough, you'll pay her that AND her lawyer fees. As I said before in this thread - let that feeling sink in for a bit . . . YOU will pay HER to hire lawyers to come after YOU. And that's on top of fees for your own lawyer. I had a "cheap" divorce - my lawyer fees are going to be in the 8K range and I'm in a non-metro area. In a long term marriage with kids in the picture, most lawyers wouldn't even consider you for anything less than 10K upfront, total fees are variable - in a metro area, no one would consider taking you on for less than 20K upfront.

So you want to know why divorce sucks? Here's how it all unravels: You're at work one day and the secretary tells you that there's a Sheriff to see you. He hands you a stack of papers, known as a 30-day subpoena, that you sign for. A day later, the same Sheriff shows up with notice of hearing that's next week for what's known as temporary spousal support and lawyer fees hearing. So now you have to scramble to retain a lawyer and he wants cash money upfront. You'll also have to make a first appearance fee with the court of about $500. From there you go to the hearing, the wife's lawyer makes her case for no income and no money for fees. The court will ask for your pay stubs and then the judge hands down an order for temporary support and lawyer fees. Now you're responsible for your lawyer, her lawyer AND you have to give her cash-money every month. Don't comply and they will garnish your very next paycheck. Everything in this paragraph goes down in the span of about 10 days and your world is turned upside down and you're in hell for the next 3 years.

Get the picture?

Calm down.

I've actually been separated before (and it's still up in the air whether or not we will get divorced, but we're not there yet). What you refer to is a bad situation, and aggressive and destructive divorce. In my scenario it played out rather differently. But let's have a look at your powerful presentation.

1: Works both ways. You pay her, she pays you if she earns more.

2: In the tri-state area, you pay diddly if she worked and you've been married for less than two years. 10 years? You're in your mid-30s, how have you been through a 10 year long marriage?

3:Again - it flies both ways. If she makes 250 and you make 200, she pays you. And if she makes 250 grand anually, NO judge will make you pay her legal fees, unless you're some sort of multi-millonaire.

I didn't even use a lawyer, we used a mediator. But then, we had both had enough (for that period), so it wasn't one of those abrasive, nasty divorces, it was a trial separation.

In conclusion, no, it's not naivety mate, your counter argument was a classic straw man. You created a worst case situation and then proceeded to knock it down. That was in no way an argument against my point.

I have friends from Uni who got divorced. Some of them had even done quite well. None of them got this disastrous treatment that you've highlighted, not even the one who was caught his missus's bestie in their "matrimonial bedroom".

Here in the tri-state area, legal fees are considered during the divorce settlement - as is debt. Unless you're one of those alpha males who insists that his wife not work, it shouldn't get that bad.

Point of wisdom - do you know the professionals that least uses lawyers for their divorces? Yep. Lawyers. They do all they can to make sure that it doesn't go to court.

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

2/16/12
Anomanderis:

Calm down.

I've actually been separated before (and it's still up in the air whether or not we will get divorced, but we're not there yet). What you refer to is a bad situation, and aggressive and destructive divorce. In my scenario it played out rather differently. But let's have a look at your powerful presentation.

1: Works both ways. You pay her, she pays you if she earns more.

2: In the tri-state area, you pay diddly if she worked and you've been married for less than two years. 10 years? You're in your mid-30s, how have you been through a 10 year long marriage?

3:Again - it flies both ways. If she makes 250 and you make 200, she pays you. And if she makes 250 grand anually, NO judge will make you pay her legal fees, unless you're some sort of multi-millonaire.

I didn't even use a lawyer, we used a mediator. But then, we had both had enough (for that period), so it wasn't one of those abrasive, nasty divorces, it was a trial separation.

In conclusion, no, it's not naivety mate, your counter argument was a classic straw man. You created a worst case situation and then proceeded to knock it down. That was in no way an argument against my point.

I have friends from Uni who got divorced. Some of them had even done quite well. None of them got this disastrous treatment that you've highlighted, not even the one who was caught his missus's bestie in their "matrimonial bedroom".

Here in the tri-state area, legal fees are considered during the divorce settlement - as is debt. Unless you're one of those alpha males who insists that his wife not work, it shouldn't get that bad.

Point of wisdom - do you know the professionals that least uses lawyers for their divorces? Yep. Lawyers. They do all they can to make sure that it doesn't go to court.

Once again, you are being naive. Even in a divorce that does not go to court you would still need to hire a lawyer. You can only use a mediator if it's a short term marriage with no real property (ie a home). Of course, you can mediate in that scenario - it's a couple of kids with no assets.

You're way off on #1 - it's not about payments or 50/50 its about lifestyle. The court takes that into consideration and basically tries to make her whole, irregardless of who pays it or how she got there (ie you).

There is no way you're right on #2 - that would assume that the marriage did not co-mingle funds in any way - ie you lived within the means of your salary and she lived within the means of her salary and yet you both lived in the same home. No judge would grant that.

3 is clearly wrong (yet again, you're 0-3 kiddo). If its a large divorce with kids, she will seek lawyer fees and probably get them. Also these fees can be requested at any time. She may not go for it initially, but she can always make the request in the future.

You try to demonstrate experience but fail miserably since you haven't been divorced. A separation is not a divorce kiddo. The "fun stuff" hasn't begun for you yet. Again, you're incredibly naive if you think there's anything friendly or fair about it.

2/16/12
GentlemanJack:
Anomanderis:

Calm down.

I've actually been separated before (and it's still up in the air whether or not we will get divorced, but we're not there yet). What you refer to is a bad situation, and aggressive and destructive divorce. In my scenario it played out rather differently. But let's have a look at your powerful presentation.

1: Works both ways. You pay her, she pays you if she earns more.

2: In the tri-state area, you pay diddly if she worked and you've been married for less than two years. 10 years? You're in your mid-30s, how have you been through a 10 year long marriage?

3:Again - it flies both ways. If she makes 250 and you make 200, she pays you. And if she makes 250 grand anually, NO judge will make you pay her legal fees, unless you're some sort of multi-millonaire.

I didn't even use a lawyer, we used a mediator. But then, we had both had enough (for that period), so it wasn't one of those abrasive, nasty divorces, it was a trial separation.

In conclusion, no, it's not naivety mate, your counter argument was a classic straw man. You created a worst case situation and then proceeded to knock it down. That was in no way an argument against my point.

I have friends from Uni who got divorced. Some of them had even done quite well. None of them got this disastrous treatment that you've highlighted, not even the one who was caught his missus's bestie in their "matrimonial bedroom".

Here in the tri-state area, legal fees are considered during the divorce settlement - as is debt. Unless you're one of those alpha males who insists that his wife not work, it shouldn't get that bad.

Point of wisdom - do you know the professionals that least uses lawyers for their divorces? Yep. Lawyers. They do all they can to make sure that it doesn't go to court.

Once again, you are being naive. Even in a divorce that does not go to court you would still need to hire a lawyer. You can only use a mediator if it's a short term marriage with no real property (ie a home). Of course, you can mediate in that scenario - it's a couple of kids with no assets.

You're way off on #1 - it's not about payments or 50/50 its about lifestyle. The court takes that into consideration and basically tries to make her whole, irregardless of who pays it or how she got there (ie you).

There is no way you're right on #2 - that would assume that the marriage did not co-mingle funds in any way - ie you lived within the means of your salary and she lived within the means of her salary and yet you both lived in the same home. No judge would grant that.

3 is clearly wrong (yet again, you're 0-3 kiddo). If its a large divorce with kids, she will seek lawyer fees and probably get them. Also these fees can be requested at any time. She may not go for it initially, but she can always make the request in the future.

You try to demonstrate experience but fail miserably since you haven't been divorced. A separation is not a divorce kiddo. The "fun stuff" hasn't begun for you yet. Again, you're incredibly naive if you think there's anything friendly or fair about it.

MY DIVORCE WAS COOLER THAN YOUR DIVORCE!!!!!!!! Neener

-MBP

2/16/12
manbearpig:

MY DIVORCE WAS COOLER THAN YOUR DIVORCE!!!!!!!! Neener

He actually hasn't been divorced yet. And yeah, there's nothing cool about it - for some reason the kid just doesn't seem to understand that.

2/16/12
GentlemanJack:
manbearpig:

MY DIVORCE WAS COOLER THAN YOUR DIVORCE!!!!!!!! Neener

He actually hasn't been divorced yet. And yeah, there's nothing cool about it - for some reason the kid just doesn't seem to understand that.

He's been divorced once. Apparently this makes him an expert. He's in his mid 30s and so am I. Apparently this makes me a kid.

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

2/16/12
GentlemanJack:
Anomanderis:

Calm down.

I've actually been separated before (and it's still up in the air whether or not we will get divorced, but we're not there yet). What you refer to is a bad situation, and aggressive and destructive divorce. In my scenario it played out rather differently. But let's have a look at your powerful presentation.

1: Works both ways. You pay her, she pays you if she earns more.

2: In the tri-state area, you pay diddly if she worked and you've been married for less than two years. 10 years? You're in your mid-30s, how have you been through a 10 year long marriage?

3:Again - it flies both ways. If she makes 250 and you make 200, she pays you. And if she makes 250 grand anually, NO judge will make you pay her legal fees, unless you're some sort of multi-millonaire.

I didn't even use a lawyer, we used a mediator. But then, we had both had enough (for that period), so it wasn't one of those abrasive, nasty divorces, it was a trial separation.

In conclusion, no, it's not naivety mate, your counter argument was a classic straw man. You created a worst case situation and then proceeded to knock it down. That was in no way an argument against my point.

I have friends from Uni who got divorced. Some of them had even done quite well. None of them got this disastrous treatment that you've highlighted, not even the one who was caught his missus's bestie in their "matrimonial bedroom".

Here in the tri-state area, legal fees are considered during the divorce settlement - as is debt. Unless you're one of those alpha males who insists that his wife not work, it shouldn't get that bad.

Point of wisdom - do you know the professionals that least uses lawyers for their divorces? Yep. Lawyers. They do all they can to make sure that it doesn't go to court.

Once again, you are being naive. Even in a divorce that does not go to court you would still need to hire a lawyer. You can only use a mediator if it's a short term marriage with no real property (ie a home). Of course, you can mediate in that scenario - it's a couple of kids with no assets.

You're way off on #1 - it's not about payments or 50/50 its about lifestyle. The court takes that into consideration and basically tries to make her whole, irregardless of who pays it or how she got there (ie you).

There is no way you're right on #2 - that would assume that the marriage did not co-mingle funds in any way - ie you lived within the means of your salary and she lived within the means of her salary and yet you both lived in the same home. No judge would grant that.

3 is clearly wrong (yet again, you're 0-3 kiddo). If its a large divorce with kids, she will seek lawyer fees and probably get them. Also these fees can be requested at any time. She may not go for it initially, but she can always make the request in the future.

You try to demonstrate experience but fail miserably since you haven't been divorced. A separation is not a divorce kiddo. The "fun stuff" hasn't begun for you yet. Again, you're incredibly naive if you think there's anything friendly or fair about it.

Funniest thing is that you keep calling me kiddo. At best we're the same age. (0-1 kiddo)

Point 1: Maintaining lifestyle only comes into play if you're by far wealthier than she is. If you both earn around the same, then she can maintain her lifestyle herself. (0-2 kiddo)

Point 2: - what on earth does this have to do with co-mingling finances? It's just 2 years. Everyone goes their way, not enough time has been invested in the marriage for either party to lose out significantly.

Point 3: Please refer to my point 1

So you've experienced a bitter and painful divorce. Well, good for you. I haven't. I don't need to go through it personally to experience it.

I fail to see what makes you an expert in divorces because you went through ONE.

Some divorces are horrible. Some are not quite as bad. Almost all are painful, but a good number of them are worked out in good faith.

C'mon, there's more than one way to shoe a horse.

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

2/16/12
Anomanderis:
GentlemanJack:
Anomanderis:

Calm down.

I've actually been separated before (and it's still up in the air whether or not we will get divorced, but we're not there yet). What you refer to is a bad situation, and aggressive and destructive divorce. In my scenario it played out rather differently. But let's have a look at your powerful presentation.

1: Works both ways. You pay her, she pays you if she earns more.

2: In the tri-state area, you pay diddly if she worked and you've been married for less than two years. 10 years? You're in your mid-30s, how have you been through a 10 year long marriage?

3:Again - it flies both ways. If she makes 250 and you make 200, she pays you. And if she makes 250 grand anually, NO judge will make you pay her legal fees, unless you're some sort of multi-millonaire.

I didn't even use a lawyer, we used a mediator. But then, we had both had enough (for that period), so it wasn't one of those abrasive, nasty divorces, it was a trial separation.

In conclusion, no, it's not naivety mate, your counter argument was a classic straw man. You created a worst case situation and then proceeded to knock it down. That was in no way an argument against my point.

I have friends from Uni who got divorced. Some of them had even done quite well. None of them got this disastrous treatment that you've highlighted, not even the one who was caught his missus's bestie in their "matrimonial bedroom".

Here in the tri-state area, legal fees are considered during the divorce settlement - as is debt. Unless you're one of those alpha males who insists that his wife not work, it shouldn't get that bad.

Point of wisdom - do you know the professionals that least uses lawyers for their divorces? Yep. Lawyers. They do all they can to make sure that it doesn't go to court.

Once again, you are being naive. Even in a divorce that does not go to court you would still need to hire a lawyer. You can only use a mediator if it's a short term marriage with no real property (ie a home). Of course, you can mediate in that scenario - it's a couple of kids with no assets.

You're way off on #1 - it's not about payments or 50/50 its about lifestyle. The court takes that into consideration and basically tries to make her whole, irregardless of who pays it or how she got there (ie you).

There is no way you're right on #2 - that would assume that the marriage did not co-mingle funds in any way - ie you lived within the means of your salary and she lived within the means of her salary and yet you both lived in the same home. No judge would grant that.

3 is clearly wrong (yet again, you're 0-3 kiddo). If its a large divorce with kids, she will seek lawyer fees and probably get them. Also these fees can be requested at any time. She may not go for it initially, but she can always make the request in the future.

You try to demonstrate experience but fail miserably since you haven't been divorced. A separation is not a divorce kiddo. The "fun stuff" hasn't begun for you yet. Again, you're incredibly naive if you think there's anything friendly or fair about it.

Funniest thing is that you keep calling me kiddo. At best we're the same age. (0-1 kiddo)

Point 1: Maintaining lifestyle only comes into play if you're by far wealthier than she is. If you both earn around the same, then she can maintain her lifestyle herself. (0-2 kiddo)

Point 2: - what on earth does this have to do with co-mingling finances? It's just 2 years. Everyone goes their way, not enough time has been invested in the marriage for either party to lose out significantly.

Point 3: Please refer to my point 1

So you've experienced a bitter and painful divorce. Well, good for you. I haven't. I don't need to go through it personally to experience it.

I fail to see what makes you an expert in divorces because you went through ONE.

Some divorces are horrible. Some are not quite as bad. Almost all are painful, but a good number of them are worked out in good faith.

C'mon, there's more than one way to shoe a horse.

You know what, kiddo, you go ahead and believe whatever you want. I used to be in your fantasy land too. But you'll learn one day. Your hardest lesson will come from #1 above - you keep on wanting to interject this feeling of 50/50 when a divorce has nothing to do with that.

So go ahead and believe in whatever you want. If you want to believe in Santa Claus, lollipops and rainbows, who am I to spoil a kid's dream?

2/16/12
GentlemanJack:
Anomanderis:
GentlemanJack:
Anomanderis:

Calm down.

I've actually been separated before (and it's still up in the air whether or not we will get divorced, but we're not there yet). What you refer to is a bad situation, and aggressive and destructive divorce. In my scenario it played out rather differently. But let's have a look at your powerful presentation.

1: Works both ways. You pay her, she pays you if she earns more.

2: In the tri-state area, you pay diddly if she worked and you've been married for less than two years. 10 years? You're in your mid-30s, how have you been through a 10 year long marriage?

3:Again - it flies both ways. If she makes 250 and you make 200, she pays you. And if she makes 250 grand anually, NO judge will make you pay her legal fees, unless you're some sort of multi-millonaire.

I didn't even use a lawyer, we used a mediator. But then, we had both had enough (for that period), so it wasn't one of those abrasive, nasty divorces, it was a trial separation.

In conclusion, no, it's not naivety mate, your counter argument was a classic straw man. You created a worst case situation and then proceeded to knock it down. That was in no way an argument against my point.

I have friends from Uni who got divorced. Some of them had even done quite well. None of them got this disastrous treatment that you've highlighted, not even the one who was caught his missus's bestie in their "matrimonial bedroom".

Here in the tri-state area, legal fees are considered during the divorce settlement - as is debt. Unless you're one of those alpha males who insists that his wife not work, it shouldn't get that bad.

Point of wisdom - do you know the professionals that least uses lawyers for their divorces? Yep. Lawyers. They do all they can to make sure that it doesn't go to court.

Once again, you are being naive. Even in a divorce that does not go to court you would still need to hire a lawyer. You can only use a mediator if it's a short term marriage with no real property (ie a home). Of course, you can mediate in that scenario - it's a couple of kids with no assets.

You're way off on #1 - it's not about payments or 50/50 its about lifestyle. The court takes that into consideration and basically tries to make her whole, irregardless of who pays it or how she got there (ie you).

There is no way you're right on #2 - that would assume that the marriage did not co-mingle funds in any way - ie you lived within the means of your salary and she lived within the means of her salary and yet you both lived in the same home. No judge would grant that.

3 is clearly wrong (yet again, you're 0-3 kiddo). If its a large divorce with kids, she will seek lawyer fees and probably get them. Also these fees can be requested at any time. She may not go for it initially, but she can always make the request in the future.

You try to demonstrate experience but fail miserably since you haven't been divorced. A separation is not a divorce kiddo. The "fun stuff" hasn't begun for you yet. Again, you're incredibly naive if you think there's anything friendly or fair about it.

Funniest thing is that you keep calling me kiddo. At best we're the same age. (0-1 kiddo)

Point 1: Maintaining lifestyle only comes into play if you're by far wealthier than she is. If you both earn around the same, then she can maintain her lifestyle herself. (0-2 kiddo)

Point 2: - what on earth does this have to do with co-mingling finances? It's just 2 years. Everyone goes their way, not enough time has been invested in the marriage for either party to lose out significantly.

Point 3: Please refer to my point 1

So you've experienced a bitter and painful divorce. Well, good for you. I haven't. I don't need to go through it personally to experience it.

I fail to see what makes you an expert in divorces because you went through ONE.

Some divorces are horrible. Some are not quite as bad. Almost all are painful, but a good number of them are worked out in good faith.

C'mon, there's more than one way to shoe a horse.

You know what, kiddo, you go ahead and believe whatever you want. I used to be in your fantasy land too. But you'll learn one day. Your hardest lesson will come from #1 above - you keep on wanting to interject this feeling of 50/50 when a divorce has nothing to do with that.

So go ahead and believe in whatever you want. If you want to believe in Santa Claus, lollipops and rainbows, who am I to spoil a kid's dream?

I understand. You're totally correct, my apologies.

For the rest of WSO, please be informed, the elder has spoken. There is no reasonable divorce, you cannot get a divorce for less than a few million dollars, and the wife will get everything, leaving you to pay her for the rest of your life.

In short, your life ends at divorce, and lollipops or rainbows (or both) don't exist. It's true. The old man of WSO has experienced it.

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

2/16/12
Anomanderis:

I understand. You're totally correct, my apologies.

Good boy.

There's hope for you yet, kiddo.

2/16/12
GentlemanJack:
Anomanderis:

I understand. You're totally correct, my apologies.

Good boy.

There's hope for you yet, kiddo.

Heh. You unfortunately are doomed I'm afraid. And you're mistaken. Kiddo.

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

2/20/12
Anomanderis:

I don't get this.

If I get a divorce, I expect to split stuff down the middle (in fact, because I have kids, I'd be looking to give her more than half being that she's the primary caregiver). Also, she gets the house. I find this incredibly reasonable, I fail to understand how guys get petty and try to hold out on those things.

I also believe in a no-fault divorce - infidelity or otherwise, everyone has a right to be happy. If she's not happy with me she should walk (yeah, and take half).

What I may struggle with is if I'm expected to give her from my future earnings, that would suck balls.

I read something not too long ago about renewable marriage contracts which I think makes a ton of sense. Temporary contracts, either towards procreation or say a limited term (2, 5 years renewable), instead of this legacy "till death do us part" ish which no longer works.

No fault divorce? Infidelity or otherwise? What if she's been sleeping around unprotected? That doesn't bug you at all? I think there's a predominance of jaded posters here, but this strikes me as being absurdly idealistic and naive. I think it's honorable that you are thinking of supporting her so generously in the name of the kids, but context does matter in my opinion.

2/20/12
rezabear:
Anomanderis:

I don't get this.

If I get a divorce, I expect to split stuff down the middle (in fact, because I have kids, I'd be looking to give her more than half being that she's the primary caregiver). Also, she gets the house. I find this incredibly reasonable, I fail to understand how guys get petty and try to hold out on those things.

I also believe in a no-fault divorce - infidelity or otherwise, everyone has a right to be happy. If she's not happy with me she should walk (yeah, and take half).

What I may struggle with is if I'm expected to give her from my future earnings, that would suck balls.

I read something not too long ago about renewable marriage contracts which I think makes a ton of sense. Temporary contracts, either towards procreation or say a limited term (2, 5 years renewable), instead of this legacy "till death do us part" ish which no longer works.

No fault divorce? Infidelity or otherwise? What if she's been sleeping around unprotected? That doesn't bug you at all? I think there's a predominance of jaded posters here, but this strikes me as being absurdly idealistic and naive. I think it's honorable that you are thinking of supporting her so generously in the name of the kids, but context does matter in my opinion.

1 - you're wasting your time trying to educate the kid. You're absolutely right, he's incredibly naive. I tried to enlighten him to this fact but the kid ain't having it.

2 - the strange part about divorces that you mention is that (1) not every state accounts for a cheating mate and (2) that part of the divorce usually only accounts for the reason for the divorce, not the splitting of assets. IOW just because she cheats doesn't mean that she gets zero. It only means they'll grant the divorce, but you still need to have a split that the court signs off on. In some states you can sue the person your mate cheated with but that's only a few of them and it usually results in a judgement you can't effectively collect on.

2/20/12
rezabear:
Anomanderis:

I don't get this.

If I get a divorce, I expect to split stuff down the middle (in fact, because I have kids, I'd be looking to give her more than half being that she's the primary caregiver). Also, she gets the house. I find this incredibly reasonable, I fail to understand how guys get petty and try to hold out on those things.

I also believe in a no-fault divorce - infidelity or otherwise, everyone has a right to be happy. If she's not happy with me she should walk (yeah, and take half).

What I may struggle with is if I'm expected to give her from my future earnings, that would suck balls.

I read something not too long ago about renewable marriage contracts which I think makes a ton of sense. Temporary contracts, either towards procreation or say a limited term (2, 5 years renewable), instead of this legacy "till death do us part" ish which no longer works.

No fault divorce? Infidelity or otherwise? What if she's been sleeping around unprotected? That doesn't bug you at all? I think there's a predominance of jaded posters here, but this strikes me as being absurdly idealistic and naive. I think it's honorable that you are thinking of supporting her so generously in the name of the kids, but context does matter in my opinion.

Nothing naive here, none at all. Nobody says it's not going to hurt, that's just silliness. Sometimes you need to look at the reality of things:

See, it's all about perception. If she had been sleeping around and I found out, I'd test myself, if I was in the clear, then I'd walk away from the relationship. Yes, it is that simple. What would you do about it otherwise? What can you do? I have no desire to further wreck my finances just to make a point to someone who slept around. My ego is simply not that fragile thank you very much, I do alright on my own. Of course, this seemingly calm, calculated proceeding, is the scenario I currently face. I also understand that other people (Like that kid - Jack,) could face totally different situations. One size doesn't fit all.

Don't take my acceptance of reality to imply that I am not bugged, I simply prefer to choose my battles, and a fight that could result in tricky conditions for my kids is simply not an option. If there were no kids involved, trust me it would be a totally different situation (the marriage would probably never have happened actually), but I digress.

I had a friend who had an amazing divorce, no legal fees, nada. They settled everything between themselves, got a notary to sign it off, and the only court appearance was to get a judge to legalize the divorce. It happened, and nowadays happens a lot more as people wise up to the ruinous effects of using a lawyer. But I trust some kids on here have their heads stuck so far up their backsides that they can tolerate no other opinions but their own, fairplay to them. If my divorce (should be coming up later this year or early next) turns ugly as everyone appears to expect, I'll take a bow. Until then.....

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

2/20/12
Anomanderis:
rezabear:
Anomanderis:

I don't get this.

If I get a divorce, I expect to split stuff down the middle (in fact, because I have kids, I'd be looking to give her more than half being that she's the primary caregiver). Also, she gets the house. I find this incredibly reasonable, I fail to understand how guys get petty and try to hold out on those things.

I also believe in a no-fault divorce - infidelity or otherwise, everyone has a right to be happy. If she's not happy with me she should walk (yeah, and take half).

What I may struggle with is if I'm expected to give her from my future earnings, that would suck balls.

I read something not too long ago about renewable marriage contracts which I think makes a ton of sense. Temporary contracts, either towards procreation or say a limited term (2, 5 years renewable), instead of this legacy "till death do us part" ish which no longer works.

No fault divorce? Infidelity or otherwise? What if she's been sleeping around unprotected? That doesn't bug you at all? I think there's a predominance of jaded posters here, but this strikes me as being absurdly idealistic and naive. I think it's honorable that you are thinking of supporting her so generously in the name of the kids, but context does matter in my opinion.

Nothing naive here, none at all. Nobody says it's not going to hurt, that's just silliness. Sometimes you need to look at the reality of things:

See, it's all about perception. If she had been sleeping around and I found out, I'd test myself, if I was in the clear, then I'd walk away from the relationship. Yes, it is that simple. What would you do about it otherwise? What can you do? I have no desire to further wreck my finances just to make a point to someone who slept around. My ego is simply not that fragile thank you very much, I do alright on my own. Of course, this seemingly calm, calculated proceeding, is the scenario I currently face. I also understand that other people (Like that kid - Jack,) could face totally different situations. One size doesn't fit all.

Ugh. You keep on showing your naivety and now its just plain ignorance. Do you really believe that its your choice, and your choice alone to walk away and be done with everything? She's just going to want 50% and take nothing else from you? Right. You're in for a shocker kiddo. It would be easier to respect you a little if you would at least acknowledge that you have no experience here. But the fact that you put yourself out there is just plain dumb.

2/20/12
GentlemanJack:
Anomanderis:
rezabear:
Anomanderis:

I don't get this.

If I get a divorce, I expect to split stuff down the middle (in fact, because I have kids, I'd be looking to give her more than half being that she's the primary caregiver). Also, she gets the house. I find this incredibly reasonable, I fail to understand how guys get petty and try to hold out on those things.

I also believe in a no-fault divorce - infidelity or otherwise, everyone has a right to be happy. If she's not happy with me she should walk (yeah, and take half).

What I may struggle with is if I'm expected to give her from my future earnings, that would suck balls.

I read something not too long ago about renewable marriage contracts which I think makes a ton of sense. Temporary contracts, either towards procreation or say a limited term (2, 5 years renewable), instead of this legacy "till death do us part" ish which no longer works.

No fault divorce? Infidelity or otherwise? What if she's been sleeping around unprotected? That doesn't bug you at all? I think there's a predominance of jaded posters here, but this strikes me as being absurdly idealistic and naive. I think it's honorable that you are thinking of supporting her so generously in the name of the kids, but context does matter in my opinion.

Nothing naive here, none at all. Nobody says it's not going to hurt, that's just silliness. Sometimes you need to look at the reality of things:

See, it's all about perception. If she had been sleeping around and I found out, I'd test myself, if I was in the clear, then I'd walk away from the relationship. Yes, it is that simple. What would you do about it otherwise? What can you do? I have no desire to further wreck my finances just to make a point to someone who slept around. My ego is simply not that fragile thank you very much, I do alright on my own. Of course, this seemingly calm, calculated proceeding, is the scenario I currently face. I also understand that other people (Like that kid - Jack,) could face totally different situations. One size doesn't fit all.

Ugh. You keep on showing your naivety and now its just plain ignorance. Do you really believe that its your choice, and your choice alone to walk away and be done with everything? She's just going to want 50% and take nothing else from you? Right. You're in for a shocker kiddo. It would be easier to respect you a little if you would at least acknowledge that you have no experience here. But the fact that you put yourself out there is just plain dumb.

Oh dear. Not to insult you, but the way you keep spewing this inane crap is simply not very clever. If I don't accept your idea of what divorce will be like then I'm naive? Really? In other words, there's only ONE way to get a divorce, one procedure.

If the divorce papers are finalized and signed, it's DONE!. Can she sue for more? Sure she can, but not as a spouse. If this happens after the divorce, then guess what - you no longer need to pay her legal fees. Do I really need to spell this out for you? You seem like a smart enough person most of the time.

But you're really not listening, you don't want a discussion. You simply want to keep flexing your muscles and informing us all how awesome your divorce was. Any other opinion but yours is dismissed as "naivety".

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

2/20/12
Anomanderis:

Oh dear. Not to insult you, but the way you keep spewing this inane crap is simply not very clever. If I don't accept your idea of what divorce will be like then I'm naive? Really? In other words, there's only ONE way to get a divorce, one procedure.

If the divorce papers are finalized and signed, it's DONE!. Can she sue for more? Sure she can, but not as a spouse. If this happens after the divorce, then guess what - you no longer need to pay her legal fees. Do I really need to spell this out for you? You seem like a smart enough person most of the time.

But you're really not listening, you don't want a discussion. You simply want to keep flexing your muscles and informing us all how awesome your divorce was. Any other opinion but yours is dismissed as "naivety".

1 - I'm not the only one calling you naive. You need to stop & think about that kiddo

2- "If the divorce papers are finalized and signed, it's DONE!" This is where you naivety is the worst. You're glossing over about 10,000,000 different steps that will happen to get to the signed papers. You really believe that she will just sign anything that you put in front of her . . . right. You're in for the shock of a lifetime kiddo.

2/20/12
GentlemanJack:
Anomanderis:

Oh dear. Not to insult you, but the way you keep spewing this inane crap is simply not very clever. If I don't accept your idea of what divorce will be like then I'm naive? Really? In other words, there's only ONE way to get a divorce, one procedure.

If the divorce papers are finalized and signed, it's DONE!. Can she sue for more? Sure she can, but not as a spouse. If this happens after the divorce, then guess what - you no longer need to pay her legal fees. Do I really need to spell this out for you? You seem like a smart enough person most of the time.

But you're really not listening, you don't want a discussion. You simply want to keep flexing your muscles and informing us all how awesome your divorce was. Any other opinion but yours is dismissed as "naivety".

1 - I'm not the only one calling you naive. You need to stop & think about that kiddo

2- "If the divorce papers are finalized and signed, it's DONE!" This is where you naivety is the worst. You're glossing over about 10,000,000 different steps that will happen to get to the signed papers. You really believe that she will just sign anything that you put in front of her . . . right. You're in for the shock of a lifetime kiddo.

See, now we're getting somewhere. Of particular interest is this phrase: "Sign anything you put in front of her". Why on earth would you be putting anything in front of her? You both need to discuss and decide how things split. She wins some, you win some. If you expected to go off and write a nice, intellectual and logical document splitting your possessions, I'll be surprised if she signs it silently. I certainly wouldn't.

Now, 10,000,000 steps, that's a totally new topic you're bringing into the conversation, earlier you were all fire and brimstone about being delivered papers in your office, etc. And I still insist your arguing against a belief that the divorce process will be a walk in a park, which isn't what I believe, neither have I said it at anytime previously. It will be painful, it will hurt, it will very likely tear you a new hole, and all this without going through the motions of an expensive and vicious court proceeding.

BUT! It can still be carried out (and 98% of the time it is!) without going to court, without getting lawyers involved. That is the foundation of my argument.

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

2/20/12
Anomanderis:
GentlemanJack:
Anomanderis:

Oh dear. Not to insult you, but the way you keep spewing this inane crap is simply not very clever. If I don't accept your idea of what divorce will be like then I'm naive? Really? In other words, there's only ONE way to get a divorce, one procedure.

If the divorce papers are finalized and signed, it's DONE!. Can she sue for more? Sure she can, but not as a spouse. If this happens after the divorce, then guess what - you no longer need to pay her legal fees. Do I really need to spell this out for you? You seem like a smart enough person most of the time.

But you're really not listening, you don't want a discussion. You simply want to keep flexing your muscles and informing us all how awesome your divorce was. Any other opinion but yours is dismissed as "naivety".

1 - I'm not the only one calling you naive. You need to stop & think about that kiddo

2- "If the divorce papers are finalized and signed, it's DONE!" This is where you naivety is the worst. You're glossing over about 10,000,000 different steps that will happen to get to the signed papers. You really believe that she will just sign anything that you put in front of her . . . right. You're in for the shock of a lifetime kiddo.

See, now we're getting somewhere. Of particular interest is this phrase: "Sign anything you put in front of her". Why on earth would you be putting anything in front of her? You both need to discuss and decide how things split. She wins some, you win some. If you expected to go off and write a nice, intellectual and logical document splitting your possessions, I'll be surprised if she signs it silently. I certainly wouldn't.

LOL. Kiddo, you bring a whole new level of delusion to your examples. You just go on ahead and do what you want and I'll be there to tell you "I told you so".

2/20/12
GentlemanJack:
Anomanderis:
GentlemanJack:
Anomanderis:

Oh dear. Not to insult you, but the way you keep spewing this inane crap is simply not very clever. If I don't accept your idea of what divorce will be like then I'm naive? Really? In other words, there's only ONE way to get a divorce, one procedure.

If the divorce papers are finalized and signed, it's DONE!. Can she sue for more? Sure she can, but not as a spouse. If this happens after the divorce, then guess what - you no longer need to pay her legal fees. Do I really need to spell this out for you? You seem like a smart enough person most of the time.

But you're really not listening, you don't want a discussion. You simply want to keep flexing your muscles and informing us all how awesome your divorce was. Any other opinion but yours is dismissed as "naivety".

1 - I'm not the only one calling you naive. You need to stop & think about that kiddo

2- "If the divorce papers are finalized and signed, it's DONE!" This is where you naivety is the worst. You're glossing over about 10,000,000 different steps that will happen to get to the signed papers. You really believe that she will just sign anything that you put in front of her . . . right. You're in for the shock of a lifetime kiddo.

See, now we're getting somewhere. Of particular interest is this phrase: "Sign anything you put in front of her". Why on earth would you be putting anything in front of her? You both need to discuss and decide how things split. She wins some, you win some. If you expected to go off and write a nice, intellectual and logical document splitting your possessions, I'll be surprised if she signs it silently. I certainly wouldn't.

LOL. Kiddo, you bring a whole new level of delusion to your examples. You just go on ahead and do what you want and I'll be there to tell you "I told you so".

Really? A new level? lol. I still don't agree with your "My way or the high way" version of how divorces happen.

Oh I'm sorry, did I hurt your feelings Junior?

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

2/16/12

Prenub.

2/16/12

Ugh my ex GF had that gold digger instinct too, of course was unwilling to work hard to buy herself nice things or support me at a stressfull job to be able to swing the kind of lifestyle she expected.

Worst part is that I have no idea how she got so used to things being "just-so" because she comes from NOTHING and her mom's house is a shithole I could barely enter without feeling sick. Her dad is a stand up guy and makes his money, but he gets it and doesn't pay for shit for his daughter aside from modest gifts on birthdays and christmas.

The worst part is that I was ever even thinking of tying the knot: "Oh she'll change" "I'll be making more money and things will work out"... that kind of bullshit. My dad opened up my eyes and planted the seed out doubt though, thank god he could see through her shit. Hindsight is 20/20 - she was manipulative and greedy from day 1, I don't know how I missed it.

I'm not saying there aren't good ones out there, I'm saying there are enough bad ones that your chances of making a good match are pretty fucking low. People in general run the gammut from good to bad; I have lots of friends who I would never want to marry if I were a girl (as friends I can call them on their bullshit without starting a fight though, so it works out).

After that relationship, I'm being very cautions. Even for casually dating bitches, I'm sifting them with a fine toothed comb, and the minute they sound like they want shit from me, they get pumped and dumped. And fuck giving them gifts or taking them out to nice meals until I know they can handle it without getting spoiled. At this rate, I'll be lucky if I'm married before 35.. but seriously... as Dr. Braverman said... marraige means never seeing another woman naked. And I love naked women.

2/16/12

$70k and single= a decent life (outside NYC housing)
$70k and married= might as well be working at papa johns (at least you get tips and can take home a free pizza)

2/16/12

Wow this thread is depressing me...dated my gf for nearly four years and I have doubts about marrying her. She's a great girl and has a good career as an accountant, but her bitchiness raises a red flag for me. She ALWAYS has a problem with something I do, it bugs the hell out of me. We always fight over something small that I did wrong, I don't know if I can deal with it for the rest of my life. Yikes!!!

2/16/12

This thread is incredibly depressing, not because it makes me worry about my prospects of marriage, but because I'm not looking forward to working with people who put a $ number on everything and everyone they associate with. Even in jest, it's a bit off-putting.

Hopefully WSO is just a small, tiny subset of the people who are actually in these industries (as I'm sure it is). Someone tell me I'm right in that line of thinking.

"An intellectual is a man who takes more words than necessary to tell more than he knows."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

Check out my blog!

2/16/12
Vontropnats:

This thread is incredibly depressing, not because it makes me worry about my prospects of marriage, but because I'm not looking forward to working with people who put a $ number on everything and everyone they associate with. Even in jest, it's a bit off-putting.

Hopefully WSO is just a small, tiny subset of the people who are actually in these industries (as I'm sure it is). Someone tell me I'm right in that line of thinking.

You're just young and lacking real world experience. You'll join our line of thinking soon enough :)

2/16/12
GentlemanJack:
Vontropnats:

This thread is incredibly depressing, not because it makes me worry about my prospects of marriage, but because I'm not looking forward to working with people who put a $ number on everything and everyone they associate with. Even in jest, it's a bit off-putting.

Hopefully WSO is just a small, tiny subset of the people who are actually in these industries (as I'm sure it is). Someone tell me I'm right in that line of thinking.

You're just young and lacking real world experience. You'll join our line of thinking soon enough :)

Thanks...I think?

"An intellectual is a man who takes more words than necessary to tell more than he knows."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

Check out my blog!

2/16/12
Vontropnats:
GentlemanJack:
Vontropnats:

This thread is incredibly depressing, not because it makes me worry about my prospects of marriage, but because I'm not looking forward to working with people who put a $ number on everything and everyone they associate with. Even in jest, it's a bit off-putting.

Hopefully WSO is just a small, tiny subset of the people who are actually in these industries (as I'm sure it is). Someone tell me I'm right in that line of thinking.

You're just young and lacking real world experience. You'll join our line of thinking soon enough :)

Thanks...I think?

I think everyone's views change from that post-college period to mid 30s (ish). You start making your way in the world, you start writing more checks to the IRS, you start reading more current events, you start making new (older) friends. I wouldn't expect you to comprehend this now, but give it some time and you'll see. The closest way I can have you understand it is with the old saying "When I was younger I thought money was the most important thing there is. Now that I'm older, I know it is".

2/16/12

Now I've never been married, nor do I plan to be anytime soon, so take this with a grain of salt from someone who hasn't experienced anything firsthand yet.

Why not just find a better girl to date/marry? Well-off/wealthy, attractive, comes from a good family, good upbringing, good values, good education, good job, motivated, doesn't care much about material goods. I almost automatically write off any women who carry lots of expensive handbags or shop with their dad's money (when she is supposed to support herself with a job).

Seriously though, why not find a girl that is smarter and better educated than you are, comes from a better background, or even has a better job? That way maybe you won't feel like you're being ripped off by her because she adds just as much, if not more, to the marriage as you do.

I hear all this talk of "gold-digging" tendencies in wives, but I feel like this is something that is easy to figure out ahead of time. Does she get pissed when you don't buy her shiny things? Does she expect you to take her on lavish vacations? Does she talk about money at all, really? Don't marry or date her. I feel like if a girl has grown up with some money (excluding if her family is obnoxious "new money" living in a McMansion somewhere), then she doesn't really feel the need for conspicuous consumption quite as much and is just happy with someone who is smart, somewhat attractive, and who she gets along with.

I guess maybe this is referred to as "marrying up."

Maybe I'm just being naive - I'm sure Eddie would think so.

Hi, Eric Stratton, rush chairman, damn glad to meet you.

2/16/12
Otter.:

Now I've never been married, nor do I plan to be anytime soon, so take this with a grain of salt from someone who hasn't experienced anything firsthand yet.

Why not just find a better girl to date/marry? Well-off/wealthy, attractive, comes from a good family, good upbringing, good values, good education, good job, motivated, doesn't care much about material goods. I almost automatically write off any women who carry lots of expensive handbags or shop with their dad's money (when she is supposed to support herself with a job).

Seriously though, why not find a girl that is smarter and better educated than you are, comes from a better background, or even has a better job? That way maybe you won't feel like you're being ripped off by her because she adds just as much, if not more, to the marriage as you do.

I hear all this talk of "gold-digging" tendencies in wives, but I feel like this is something that is easy to figure out ahead of time. Does she get pissed when you don't buy her shiny things? Does she expect you to take her on lavish vacations? Does she talk about money at all, really? Don't marry or date her. I feel like if a girl has grown up with some money (excluding if her family is obnoxious "new money" living in a McMansion somewhere), then she doesn't really feel the need for conspicuous consumption quite as much and is just happy with someone who is smart, somewhat attractive, and who she gets along with.

I guess maybe this is referred to as "marrying up."

Maybe I'm just being naive - I'm sure Eddie would think so.

You're on the right track with your thinking. Here's what I would add:

1 - Debt load. How much total debt she has is a pretty good sign of a lot of things

2 - FICO score. Same as above.

3 - Relationship with her dad. Yeah, I know this is psycho-babble BS but I also happen to think it plays a role.

Personally, I'm never getting married again. If by some chance it should happen again, right now I'm still only dating older women that have their shit together. You need to find a woman that has already fleeced an ex-husband - don't be the the ex-husband being fleeced. All my current ladies already have their own houses, their own cars, their own "shiny things" as you put it. That type of woman is going to have a lot more realistic expectations from a marriage.

2/16/12
GentlemanJack:

3 - Relationship with her dad. Yeah, I know this is psycho-babble BS but I also happen to think it plays a role.

This is a great point. I actually seriously consider things like - what's her relationship with her dad, does her family has strong moral values (meaning "are they not fucking crazy"), is her mom sane, does she get along with most/all of my friends, etc.

I have zero interest in ever being with a girl from a broken home. Selfish or heartless, maybe, but this is one of the few rules I do not break. Makes life much simpler.

Hi, Eric Stratton, rush chairman, damn glad to meet you.

2/16/12
GentlemanJack:
Otter.:

Now I've never been married, nor do I plan to be anytime soon, so take this with a grain of salt from someone who hasn't experienced anything firsthand yet.

Why not just find a better girl to date/marry? Well-off/wealthy, attractive, comes from a good family, good upbringing, good values, good education, good job, motivated, doesn't care much about material goods. I almost automatically write off any women who carry lots of expensive handbags or shop with their dad's money (when she is supposed to support herself with a job).

Seriously though, why not find a girl that is smarter and better educated than you are, comes from a better background, or even has a better job? That way maybe you won't feel like you're being ripped off by her because she adds just as much, if not more, to the marriage as you do.

I hear all this talk of "gold-digging" tendencies in wives, but I feel like this is something that is easy to figure out ahead of time. Does she get pissed when you don't buy her shiny things? Does she expect you to take her on lavish vacations? Does she talk about money at all, really? Don't marry or date her. I feel like if a girl has grown up with some money (excluding if her family is obnoxious "new money" living in a McMansion somewhere), then she doesn't really feel the need for conspicuous consumption quite as much and is just happy with someone who is smart, somewhat attractive, and who she gets along with.

I guess maybe this is referred to as "marrying up."

Maybe I'm just being naive - I'm sure Eddie would think so.

You're on the right track with your thinking. Here's what I would add:

1 - Debt load. How much total debt she has is a pretty good sign of a lot of things

2 - FICO score. Same as above.

3 - Relationship with her dad. Yeah, I know this is psycho-babble BS but I also happen to think it plays a role.

Personally, I'm never getting married again. If by some chance it should happen again, right now I'm still only dating older women that have their shit together. You need to find a woman that has already fleeced an ex-husband - don't be the the ex-husband being fleeced. All my current ladies already have their own houses, their own cars, their own "shiny things" as you put it. That type of woman is going to have a lot more realistic expectations from a marriage.

Haha, 'hey honey, I would like to get married but I'm going to need a credit report and a bank statement.'

Business opportunity; Carfax for women.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

2/16/12
happypantsmcgee:

Haha, 'hey honey, I would like to get married but I'm going to need a credit report and a bank statement.'

Business opportunity; Carfax for women.

Nah, you can get everything you need from any PI. I put all my dates through it now and they don't even have to know.

2/16/12
happypantsmcgee:
GentlemanJack:
Otter.:

Now I've never been married, nor do I plan to be anytime soon, so take this with a grain of salt from someone who hasn't experienced anything firsthand yet.

Why not just find a better girl to date/marry? Well-off/wealthy, attractive, comes from a good family, good upbringing, good values, good education, good job, motivated, doesn't care much about material goods. I almost automatically write off any women who carry lots of expensive handbags or shop with their dad's money (when she is supposed to support herself with a job).

Seriously though, why not find a girl that is smarter and better educated than you are, comes from a better background, or even has a better job? That way maybe you won't feel like you're being ripped off by her because she adds just as much, if not more, to the marriage as you do.

I hear all this talk of "gold-digging" tendencies in wives, but I feel like this is something that is easy to figure out ahead of time. Does she get pissed when you don't buy her shiny things? Does she expect you to take her on lavish vacations? Does she talk about money at all, really? Don't marry or date her. I feel like if a girl has grown up with some money (excluding if her family is obnoxious "new money" living in a McMansion somewhere), then she doesn't really feel the need for conspicuous consumption quite as much and is just happy with someone who is smart, somewhat attractive, and who she gets along with.

I guess maybe this is referred to as "marrying up."

Maybe I'm just being naive - I'm sure Eddie would think so.

You're on the right track with your thinking. Here's what I would add:

1 - Debt load. How much total debt she has is a pretty good sign of a lot of things

2 - FICO score. Same as above.

3 - Relationship with her dad. Yeah, I know this is psycho-babble BS but I also happen to think it plays a role.

Personally, I'm never getting married again. If by some chance it should happen again, right now I'm still only dating older women that have their shit together. You need to find a woman that has already fleeced an ex-husband - don't be the the ex-husband being fleeced. All my current ladies already have their own houses, their own cars, their own "shiny things" as you put it. That type of woman is going to have a lot more realistic expectations from a marriage.

Haha, 'hey honey, I would like to get married but I'm going to need a credit report and a bank statement.'

Business opportunity; Carfax for women.

Hahaha. They already have a service that let's you run quick basic background checks on other people - it's targeted to the dating community. Forget the name.

2/16/12
RagnarDanneskjold:
happypantsmcgee:
GentlemanJack:
Otter.:

Now I've never been married, nor do I plan to be anytime soon, so take this with a grain of salt from someone who hasn't experienced anything firsthand yet.

Why not just find a better girl to date/marry? Well-off/wealthy, attractive, comes from a good family, good upbringing, good values, good education, good job, motivated, doesn't care much about material goods. I almost automatically write off any women who carry lots of expensive handbags or shop with their dad's money (when she is supposed to support herself with a job).

Seriously though, why not find a girl that is smarter and better educated than you are, comes from a better background, or even has a better job? That way maybe you won't feel like you're being ripped off by her because she adds just as much, if not more, to the marriage as you do.

I hear all this talk of "gold-digging" tendencies in wives, but I feel like this is something that is easy to figure out ahead of time. Does she get pissed when you don't buy her shiny things? Does she expect you to take her on lavish vacations? Does she talk about money at all, really? Don't marry or date her. I feel like if a girl has grown up with some money (excluding if her family is obnoxious "new money" living in a McMansion somewhere), then she doesn't really feel the need for conspicuous consumption quite as much and is just happy with someone who is smart, somewhat attractive, and who she gets along with.

I guess maybe this is referred to as "marrying up."

Maybe I'm just being naive - I'm sure Eddie would think so.

You're on the right track with your thinking. Here's what I would add:

1 - Debt load. How much total debt she has is a pretty good sign of a lot of things

2 - FICO score. Same as above.

3 - Relationship with her dad. Yeah, I know this is psycho-babble BS but I also happen to think it plays a role.

Personally, I'm never getting married again. If by some chance it should happen again, right now I'm still only dating older women that have their shit together. You need to find a woman that has already fleeced an ex-husband - don't be the the ex-husband being fleeced. All my current ladies already have their own houses, their own cars, their own "shiny things" as you put it. That type of woman is going to have a lot more realistic expectations from a marriage.

Haha, 'hey honey, I would like to get married but I'm going to need a credit report and a bank statement.'

Business opportunity; Carfax for women.

Hahaha. They already have a service that let's you run quick basic background checks on other people - it's targeted to the dating community. Forget the name.

facebook?

-MBP

2/16/12
RagnarDanneskjold:

Hahaha. They already have a service that let's you run quick basic background checks on other people - it's targeted to the dating community. Forget the name.

I'm sure that's the case. You can get everything you need from the databases that PIs have access to. Just pick any PI from the phone book and for a few bucks and a couple hours later you will have everything you need.

2/16/12
Otter.:

Now I've never been married, nor do I plan to be anytime soon, so take this with a grain of salt from someone who hasn't experienced anything firsthand yet.

Why not just find a better girl to date/marry? Well-off/wealthy, attractive, comes from a good family, good upbringing, good values, good education, good job, motivated, doesn't care much about material goods. I almost automatically write off any women who carry lots of expensive handbags or shop with their dad's money (when she is supposed to support herself with a job).

Seriously though, why not find a girl that is smarter and better educated than you are, comes from a better background, or even has a better job? That way maybe you won't feel like you're being ripped off by her because she adds just as much, if not more, to the marriage as you do.

I hear all this talk of "gold-digging" tendencies in wives, but I feel like this is something that is easy to figure out ahead of time. Does she get pissed when you don't buy her shiny things? Does she expect you to take her on lavish vacations? Does she talk about money at all, really? Don't marry or date her. I feel like if a girl has grown up with some money (excluding if her family is obnoxious "new money" living in a McMansion somewhere), then she doesn't really feel the need for conspicuous consumption quite as much and is just happy with someone who is smart, somewhat attractive, and who she gets along with.

I guess maybe this is referred to as "marrying up."

Maybe I'm just being naive - I'm sure Eddie would think so.

I was trying so hard not to respond to this thread, but I can't help myself. I'm quoting Otter but not picking on him with my response.

This is a rare instance where I'm going to stand up for the women being bashed on this thread. That's a big statement for someone who firmly supports the Men's Rights Movement (look it up if you don't know what that is).

Guys, in practical terms, there is no such thing as gold digging. The biological fact of the matter is that women are wired to prefer men who have high social status and high earnings power. It's true that some women are tacky, soulless bitches, I won't argue with that. It's true that the laws are decidedly anti-male and that women exploit those laws. But you can't fault women for preferring men with money, and for trying to take some of that money. It's like saying that men are shallow because we love women with big tits, small waists, pouty lips, and beautiful skin, and want to reproduce with them (or at least go through the motions). NO SHIT. We're made that way. We can't help it. And neither can women help themselves in pursuing their own interests.

The fact is, that mother nature doesn't trust either men or women to make smart decisions. So we're wired to make EFFECTIVE decisions -- our preferences are automatic. In other words, our biology is not designed to make us HAPPY, but to ensure the SURVIVAL of the species. That's it. And you get a lot of crazy, bat shit behavior coming out of that dynamic, especially when society tries to enforces its rules on top of the underlying biology, but it is what it is. We're here to pass on our genes. Not to say there aren't hundreds of other worthwhile pursuits in life, but that's the bottom line.

What I am saying is that men and women have contrary, naturally opposing strategies for mating. Men want many women with minimum commitment to any of them. Women want one man, the best they can find. And they want maximum material and emotional investment from that man. And in the way that men are insatiable for sex, women are insatiable for those investments -- more cuddle time, more "bonding talks", more long walks on the beach, and yes, more material stuff (there is a method to the madness -- women are not completely insane). This is why women are more sensitive to "emotional cheating" then men are.

You can't fight it, it is what it is. So there's no point trying to throw women under the bus and bash them about it. They can't help it. But you can protect yourself. Getting married is a really, really bad idea for men because the odds and the laws are completely slanted against us. Our judicial system is absolutely unfair in every way when it comes to supporting men getting divorced.

So if you're going to do it, do it with a margin of safety (but better yet don't do it at all). Two ways to do that: First way is to marry a woman who has fewer options than you (sorry boys, that rules out super models!). It's a relative value play, where the woman is more likely to stay with you and be loyal because you are the best she can get. That necessarily means probably doing less well in mate selection than you otherwise could. I'm not going to say marry an ugly chick, but you get the idea. Note that around 70% of divorces are initiated by the woman (don't be that guy).

Second way would be to absolutely knock the cover off the ball and be as successful as possible, thereby expanding your choice of women, and then go in with an iron clad prenup while shielding your assets. It's not the easiest approach, but you will still have leverage if she can't get to your assets and she can't replace you (if you're worth 20 million bucks for example, who else is she going to trade up to? There's always someone better, but functionally, her options are very limited at that point).

The worst strategy is go in with the "hope and change mindset" (WE KNOW THAT SHIT DOES NOT WORK, DON'T DO IT!).

So to Otter's point, you are putting yourself in the absolute worst position you can by trying to marry up as a man. Not only are you likely to be unsuccessful in the pursuit (because the woman will probably balk), but you have a very high chance of being miserable for the rest of your life if you do pull it off. Don't even think about it.

If you doubt any of this, stroll over to your good friend wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergamy

"[Hypergamy] is often used more specifically in reference to a perceived tendency among human cultures for females to seek or be encouraged to pursue male suitors that are higher status than themselves, which often manifests itself as being attracted to men who are comparatively older, wealthier or otherwise more privileged than themselves."

You can deny reality, but only at your own peril. If you look around and observe how things actually work in life, you know this is true.

Last point: I know there is going to be some whiny man-bitch on here talking about how sacrasanct society's laws and expectations are, blah, blah. You know what? If what society wanted for men actually worked FOR MEN, we wouldn't be having this discussion. There's nothing else to say about that.

2/16/12
Ravenous:

So to Otter's point, you are putting yourself in the absolute worst position you can by trying to marry up as a man. Not only are you likely to be unsuccessful in the pursuit (because the woman will probably balk), but you have a very high chance of being miserable for the rest of your life if you do pull it off. Don't even think about it.

If you doubt any of this, stroll over to your good friend wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergamy

"[Hypergamy] is often used more specifically in reference to a perceived tendency among human cultures for females to seek or be encouraged to pursue male suitors that are higher status than themselves, which often manifests itself as being attracted to men who are comparatively older, wealthier or otherwise more privileged than themselves."

Appreciate the reply, but I am curious about this point. Why would you be miserable if you pull it off?

Also, to clarify, I don't mean "marry up" in terms of a 5'4" obese pimply fat kid marrying a super model. Of course I want to be with an attractive girl (who doesn't) but I don't care so much about someone's cup size or whether or not they look like they belong in Victoria's Secret.

I guess what I mean is - marry a girl that comes from a background where she has not had to spend much time worrying about money. That way, she will not obsess over wanting shiny things if shiny things are not that big of a deal to her. If all the jewelery she wears is passed down from her great-grandmother, then you don't need to buy her stuff from TIffany's all the time. Bam, problem solved.

Hi, Eric Stratton, rush chairman, damn glad to meet you.

2/16/12
Otter.:
Ravenous:

So to Otter's point, you are putting yourself in the absolute worst position you can by trying to marry up as a man. Not only are you likely to be unsuccessful in the pursuit (because the woman will probably balk), but you have a very high chance of being miserable for the rest of your life if you do pull it off. Don't even think about it.

If you doubt any of this, stroll over to your good friend wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergamy

"[Hypergamy] is often used more specifically in reference to a perceived tendency among human cultures for females to seek or be encouraged to pursue male suitors that are higher status than themselves, which often manifests itself as being attracted to men who are comparatively older, wealthier or otherwise more privileged than themselves."

Appreciate the reply, but I am curious about this point. Why would you be miserable if you pull it off?

Also, to clarify, I don't mean "marry up" in terms of a 5'4" obese pimply fat kid marrying a super model. Of course I want to be with an attractive girl (who doesn't) but I don't care so much about someone's cup size or whether or not they look like they belong in Victoria's Secret.

I guess what I mean is - marry a girl that comes from a background where she has not had to spend much time worrying about money. That way, she will not obsess over wanting shiny things if shiny things are not that big of a deal to her. If all the jewelery she wears is passed down from her great-grandmother, then you don't need to buy her stuff from TIffany's all the time. Bam, problem solved.

Yeah, I know what you meant. Marrying up in a situation that is not obviously a joke to a neutral 3rd party observer.

It's not problem solved. Women want to move up from where they currently are. If she comes from an old money family, she will want to marry into another old money family of equal or higher status, marry a celebrity, etc.. It's extremely rare for a woman to be able to marry down. I'm not saying it's impossible, but you're violating the laws of nature with that kind of arrangement.

If you're really curious about trying to do this, you should read the book, "What Women Want, What Men Want." It has nothing to do with the bullshit cultural stuff like Men Are From Mars (or whatever -- I haven't read that book). In one part of the book, they survey med students at an elite medical school. The women are pissed because they worked their asses off to get into an elite med school and realize that they have effectively priced themselves out of the market -- there are few men in society of higher status than they are (because they measure status and attractiveness in men as earnings power), and they don't want to compromise by marrying down, because they feel they "won't be able to respect their husband" if they do that. These women want to date / marry the male med students, who, as they all say, are virtually guaranteed to earn a lot and hold prestigious positions in society. But the male med students are not interested, because the women are beastly (which, as the book hints at, is probably almost a prereq for women getting into an elite medical school -- attractive women would simply find a mate and not go to all of that trouble). So the men chase nurses, undergrads, any other women that are physically attractive, and the female med students bitch and moan about it (pretty hilarious actually).

So along those lines, I would be very surprised if you could bag a hot, charming woman from a wealthy family unless you brought as least as much to the table. The odds are very low. I'm sure in the history of time what you are talking about has happened before, but it's rare and unlikely to work outside of the movies.

I think you WOULD be miserable if you pulled it off to the extent that your wife carped all the time about how you couldn't provide enough to maintain the standards she was used to or that she began to resent you over time. Moving up the curve in society is very easy to do psychologically, but going in reverse is almost impossible without substantial emotional trauma. If you marry a woman who has never learned the value of the dollar and then make her learn that, it's not going to end well for you (I'm not talking about forcing poverty on her either -- just anything that is an obvious step down from whatever she is used to).

Attractive, emotionally stable women from the lower middle class make the best wives. By definition, almost anything is a step up, and they're much more likely to be content. If you're worried about appearances and they are a little rough around the edges, send them to charm school.

2/16/12
Ravenous:

It's not problem solved. Women want to move up from where they currently are. If she comes from an old money family, she will want to marry into another old money family of equal or higher status, marry a celebrity, etc.. It's extremely rare for a woman to be able to marry down. I'm not saying it's impossible, but you're violating the laws of nature with that kind of arrangement.

But don't you think you can both be "marrying up" in different ways? Here's a hyperbolic example: So she is old money and belongs to nice country clubs that you want to join and hangs out with people you want to be friends with, but half the "old money" guys she's dated are alcoholics who can't hold onto a reasonable job. So, in that situation, you are smart, well-educated, ambitious, have a good or "prestigious" job, and in that sense she is "marrying up." And you get to go to her fancy parties at the country club and 'summer' at her place on Fisher's Island or whatever. In that sense you are "marrying up."

I will concede that you are citing actual studies and I am just making up theoretical examples, but I'm still think this whole idea of a guy "marrying up" in some cases is definitely possible and happens.

Anecdotally, have you never seen a guy do this? I can think of a few of examples where I see guys marrying women that might be considered above their "level" or whatever you want to call it. They just bring different, complementary things to the marriage.

Hi, Eric Stratton, rush chairman, damn glad to meet you.

2/18/12
Ravenous:
Otter.:

Now I've never been married, nor do I plan to be anytime soon, so take this with a grain of salt from someone who hasn't experienced anything firsthand yet.

Why not just find a better girl to date/marry? Well-off/wealthy, attractive, comes from a good family, good upbringing, good values, good education, good job, motivated, doesn't care much about material goods. I almost automatically write off any women who carry lots of expensive handbags or shop with their dad's money (when she is supposed to support herself with a job).

Seriously though, why not find a girl that is smarter and better educated than you are, comes from a better background, or even has a better job? That way maybe you won't feel like you're being ripped off by her because she adds just as much, if not more, to the marriage as you do.

I hear all this talk of "gold-digging" tendencies in wives, but I feel like this is something that is easy to figure out ahead of time. Does she get pissed when you don't buy her shiny things? Does she expect you to take her on lavish vacations? Does she talk about money at all, really? Don't marry or date her. I feel like if a girl has grown up with some money (excluding if her family is obnoxious "new money" living in a McMansion somewhere), then she doesn't really feel the need for conspicuous consumption quite as much and is just happy with someone who is smart, somewhat attractive, and who she gets along with.

I guess maybe this is referred to as "marrying up."

Maybe I'm just being naive - I'm sure Eddie would think so.

I was trying so hard not to respond to this thread, but I can't help myself. I'm quoting Otter but not picking on him with my response.

This is a rare instance where I'm going to stand up for the women being bashed on this thread. That's a big statement for someone who firmly supports the Men's Rights Movement (look it up if you don't know what that is).

Guys, in practical terms, there is no such thing as gold digging. The biological fact of the matter is that women are wired to prefer men who have high social status and high earnings power. It's true that some women are tacky, soulless bitches, I won't argue with that. It's true that the laws are decidedly anti-male and that women exploit those laws. But you can't fault women for preferring men with money, and for trying to take some of that money. It's like saying that men are shallow because we love women with big tits, small waists, pouty lips, and beautiful skin, and want to reproduce with them (or at least go through the motions). NO SHIT. We're made that way. We can't help it. And neither can women help themselves in pursuing their own interests.

The fact is, that mother nature doesn't trust either men or women to make smart decisions. So we're wired to make EFFECTIVE decisions -- our preferences are automatic. In other words, our biology is not designed to make us HAPPY, but to ensure the SURVIVAL of the species. That's it. And you get a lot of crazy, bat shit behavior coming out of that dynamic, especially when society tries to enforces its rules on top of the underlying biology, but it is what it is. We're here to pass on our genes. Not to say there aren't hundreds of other worthwhile pursuits in life, but that's the bottom line.

What I am saying is that men and women have contrary, naturally opposing strategies for mating. Men want many women with minimum commitment to any of them. Women want one man, the best they can find. And they want maximum material and emotional investment from that man. And in the way that men are insatiable for sex, women are insatiable for those investments -- more cuddle time, more "bonding talks", more long walks on the beach, and yes, more material stuff (there is a method to the madness -- women are not completely insane). This is why women are more sensitive to "emotional cheating" then men are.

You can't fight it, it is what it is. So there's no point trying to throw women under the bus and bash them about it. They can't help it. But you can protect yourself. Getting married is a really, really bad idea for men because the odds and the laws are completely slanted against us. Our judicial system is absolutely unfair in every way when it comes to supporting men getting divorced.

So if you're going to do it, do it with a margin of safety (but better yet don't do it at all). Two ways to do that: First way is to marry a woman who has fewer options than you (sorry boys, that rules out super models!). It's a relative value play, where the woman is more likely to stay with you and be loyal because you are the best she can get. That necessarily means probably doing less well in mate selection than you otherwise could. I'm not going to say marry an ugly chick, but you get the idea. Note that around 70% of divorces are initiated by the woman (don't be that guy).

Second way would be to absolutely knock the cover off the ball and be as successful as possible, thereby expanding your choice of women, and then go in with an iron clad prenup while shielding your assets. It's not the easiest approach, but you will still have leverage if she can't get to your assets and she can't replace you (if you're worth 20 million bucks for example, who else is she going to trade up to? There's always someone better, but functionally, her options are very limited at that point).

The worst strategy is go in with the "hope and change mindset" (WE KNOW THAT SHIT DOES NOT WORK, DON'T DO IT!).

So to Otter's point, you are putting yourself in the absolute worst position you can by trying to marry up as a man. Not only are you likely to be unsuccessful in the pursuit (because the woman will probably balk), but you have a very high chance of being miserable for the rest of your life if you do pull it off. Don't even think about it.

If you doubt any of this, stroll over to your good friend wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergamy

"[Hypergamy] is often used more specifically in reference to a perceived tendency among human cultures for females to seek or be encouraged to pursue male suitors that are higher status than themselves, which often manifests itself as being attracted to men who are comparatively older, wealthier or otherwise more privileged than themselves."

You can deny reality, but only at your own peril. If you look around and observe how things actually work in life, you know this is true.

Last point: I know there is going to be some whiny man-bitch on here talking about how sacrasanct society's laws and expectations are, blah, blah. You know what? If what society wanted for men actually worked FOR MEN, we wouldn't be having this discussion. There's nothing else to say about that.

This is what I don't get, and I suspect many other guys won't agree with this viewpoint at all.

You argue how women are pre-destined to desire men of higher status and monetary success. I would say that this is a traditional viewpoint, but no longer applicable in our modern society. I'd agree that a man who is successful is more attractive, but does that mean that women should EXPECT her husband to be at certain level of success or wealth?

We're living in 21th century, not 19th century. In the past, most women were not given access to the same level of opportunities or education as men. Hell, most universities back then didn't even admit women. As a result, it was natural of women to look for men who could provide financially and who they could depend on.

Now, women are, actually, almost FORCED to attend schools and get same amount of education, training, etc as any man out there. What that means is that women have virtually same level of income potential and opportunities in terms of career, as any other man. Let's face it - half the population at any college is comprised of women. Last time I checked, no employer says "we only hire men, not women". Many women CEO's, women doctors, women bankers, etc out there in today's society. The point is, women should no longer EXPECT to depend on men regarding income, financial support, etc.

So, I don't think it is entirely fair that a woman NATURALLY expects a man to earn much more than she does and provide all the materialistic and monetary benefits in a marriage. If a bitch wants to buy a Louis Vuitton handbag and Cartier watch, let that bitch go out there and work to buy those. Don't moan and bitch about how your husband is 'only' making 60-70k a year, working his ass off and say you wish you'd married a guy that was rich.

2/16/12
Otter.:

Why not just find a better girl to date/marry? Well-off/wealthy, attractive, comes from a good family, good upbringing, good values, good education, good job, motivated, doesn't care much about material goods.

I credit the success of my third marriage to this very thing almost exclusively. I abhor dependence in a woman (in anyone, really), so marrying a woman with her own money and assets and a good heart and great head on her shoulders changed my life. They're rare, but they are out there.

2/16/12

if i got served with divorce papers at work i would go scorched earth on that ass
fuck that shit

2/16/12
whatwhatwhat:

if i got served with divorce papers at work i would go scorched earth on that ass
fuck that shit

Well that's pretty much exactly how it goes down. You have to be served with the papers and it can't be by her. So the Sheriff offers a service where they show up at your work.

2/16/12

I've never before seen divorce as the ruler in a dick measuring contest. lol

-MBP

2/17/12
manbearpig:

I've never before seen divorce as the ruler in a dick measuring contest. lol

This is WSO- anything can be a dick-measuring contest.

2/16/12