This is my first post here in Wall Street Oasis. [Applause]. In order to get some inspiration, I have been reading a bunch of forum threads in an effort to find a good and interesting topic to write about. I noticed endless discussions about the long hours endured by the IB folks, the whole PE/VC mana, the European crisis fallout and a bunch of other crap, all of which I intend to address in due time.
But the post that caught my attention was someone thinking about relocating from the US to Europe. As a finance professional who lived in New York, London and São Paulo over the last 6 years, I might have a bit to add to the whole geographical/cultural/career discussion that takes place here.
Therefore, geographies and relocation choices are the first subjects I will cover in my first few posts. In this #1 specifically, I will go on a bit about how I look at New York in the greater scheme of things. Certainly, most of you either live or have otherwise been to New York, but your perception of the city tends to shift a bit when you have performed the young, overworked monkey role in a few stages around the world. And finally, yes, it is sort of an easy topic to write about, so here we go.
New York, US:
Well, this is probably the hole which most of you monkeys inhabit or aspire to live in. So we all must know much of this by now. New York is that very same place you saw on TV growing up. In many senses the greatest city in the world. But this statement is a bit troublesome. Yes, you can find some of the world’s greatest restaurants, but you will need to order on seamlessweb and eat on your desk.
Yes, there are more places to hang out than you could possibly visit in 10 lifetimes, but unless you’re extremely lucky, the spare time that the New York banking culture will allow you will be scarce. All in all, it is most certainly the top of the world for all the urban types, but the work pace in Finance is the worst I have ever witnessed, even controlling by firm culture, finance sub-sector and all of that.
And the people! Interesting, good-looking and smart, right? Right. But that is exactly the problem. First, because hordes of money-hungry monkeys, arguably the best in the world, are having the New York idea and drafting New York plans by the minute. If you think you’re smart, hard working and committed, looking around yourself in Midtown at around lunchtime can be a very humbling experience. Second, because if you are a foreigner, the whole “diversity” thing is not as true in finance as it is in other trades, for the peculiar American style of networking and socializing in the workplace environment makes it way harder for outsiders to break in.
It is very hard to get it right, and the average American tends to have just the same a hard time when her boss is fired and is replaced by one who has just been imported from another country. Maybe you disagree and you genuinely believe that your Wall Street bank has a fantastically diverse work culture, and if that is the case I strongly suggest you hop on the first plane and spend a couple of weeks in your firm’s London or Hong Kong offices.
It is hard to fight the fact that relative to pretty much any other financial hub, NY has a very homogenous financial culture, and people in Wall Street are basically using the same moves while fighting for the same seats (fortunately, there are many). Yeah, maybe you think you have what it takes to get to the top before all of them. But even if that is the case you must acknowledge that the race won’t be easy, actually it will be as hard as it can get. And maybe you could get to one of those 7-digit spots quicker, in a place with less competition, right? Maybe.
Pros: smart, hard working, good-looking people in a fantastic city
Cons: smart, hard working, good-looking people in a fantastic city
Is this how you feel about this city?
**Senhor Finance has worked in basically everything: industry, PE, IB, S&T, management consulting and hedge funds. He hopes to get something right one day.
Strong 1st post.
Hi, good post!
However, somehow I get the impression that you underestimate the other financial hubs. I don't think getting to the top is any easier in Hong Kong or London. Also, all the other points (harder for outsiders, people are well dressed etc. is also true for these other places).
Just my two cents.
Starting from the end of your comment, yeah, it's tough for everyone and those things are true elsewhere, but in my experience I've found them to be a bit truer in NY. London being an EMEA hub and Hong Kong being an Asia Pacific hub, they naturally tend to be more multicultural and multilingual. I've been to many trading floors in London and touring their equity desks always reminds me of Epcot Center. You know, the lake. NYC desks basically cover the US, which is fine, since it's 20%+ of the world's GDP and I'd guess around double that in markets' ADTV, but at the expense of a bit less diverse financial culture. Singapore is a bit like that too. Can't speak for HK, though. Let's say I didn't underestimate them, maybe I might need a bit extra field research! Thanks for your comment, SF
Do you think NY desks look for diversity when hiring though, like they would in a HK/London? ie. does someone who is from/has lived abroad or is multilingual appeal to them much at all? Or are they looking for someone to blend in and appeal to US client base?
If anyone has a chance to experience NYC while unemployed, I would highly recommend it. It is completely different then living there while working in the finance industry. I was lucky enough to have 3 months off, as I quit my job early knowing that I will be starting an MBA program after the summer is over, and although it was tough on the pocketbook, it was one of the greatest experiences I have ever had.
Can you elaborate on this? What did you do and what made it such a great experience?
Personally I agree with the OP. It seems that no matter how successful you are, there are always thousands of people better than you in NYC. Was out on Saturday night in meatpacking and was tough to get in almost everywhere. Makes you wonder what is the point of it all. I'm starting to think NYC is not all that after all.
Sounds interesting. What did you do?
Please understand that the below is particularly awesome in my book just because I grew up broke in suburban Denver CO, where there wasn't much happening and if there was, I probably couldn't have afforded it anyway.
The most enjoyable part of being off was the ability to wake up and go on a 3 hour bike ride, or go down to the Battery Park basketball courts along the river and play pickup games for 4+ hours. Doing these two activities 4-6 times a week for 3 months straight was great, and if I was financially set for life, this is how I would spend my time for the foreseeable future. But that’s just me, it is a very unique outlook and I know most monkeys will think I am crazy for doing this.
Another thing I enjoyed was going to all of the shows New York has to offer, it was easy to attend tapings of Jimmy Fallon/Letterman/Etc. (most of whom film on weekday afternoons) as well as travel to nearby cities to do the same. For example I went up to Stamford to watch a live taping of the Maury Povich show (don't hate, it was a good time). The best was doing this with friends that would come visit from out of town.
I am a huge NHL and NBA fan, so I got to see so many playoff games from start to finish it was ridiculous. I also got a chance to go to some Rangers, Knicks, Devils, Flyers, etc... games. This would just not be possible with a finance job.
Dating was also a lot more convenient. When you get a number at a bar, instead of figuring out some evening or weekend date or what not, the lunch date becomes available. The lunch date is awesome for one reason. No matter how the date goes, good or bad, your date has to go back to work 99% of the time. One of my pet peeves was when you are a dinner and your date isn't as fun as you imagined she would be and you no longer want to hang out afterwards, you usually have to make something up or try to wrap up the dinner without being obvious that you want to leave on your own and fast, which as you guys and gals know can sometimes get awkward. With lunch dates this problem is 100% averted.
I also took out almost every restaurant and bar that I’ve wanted to go to off my list. Before 6PM almost nothing requires reservations, so you can go get a steak at Primehouse or a Seafood dish at Morimoto without any waiting. At the popular bars/clubs, if you go for drinks during the day a few times a week and shoot the shit with the door guys on your way in and out, it is easy to set yourself up to skip the line and not be required to buy bottles to get in at 11pm on a Saturday night.
I could keep going, but I think I covered the majority of the main genres that needed to be covered. I want to finish with this primary point. I was able to do what I wanted, when I wanted to do it. If some random idea popped into my head, I was able to execute immediately instead of having to worry about scheduling it for an uncertain future date. That and the fact that I slept for 8-10 hours a night was why this was one of the most amazing three month periods in my life.
I want to live in NYC one day, mostly just to get out of my socal bubble (even though it is a very nice bubble). I have never lived anywhere besides socal, and the only other place I would want to live would be NYC.
Good post. I agree that being in NYC while having lots of free time e.g. no work/school can be really fun. Also, I like being around people who are "better" than me - it drives me to be better myself. I didn't have the same drive when I grew up in the suburbs.
Dude, please elaborate more on Sao Paulo. Is it like the holy-land I imagine it to be? Healthy, curvy, beautiful women everywhere you look? Do you speak Portuguese? How's the job market down there?
Interesting question. The women part is accurate, but SP also comes with side effects such as motorcycle-powered gunpoint robbery, traffic mayhem and an incredibly high cost of living. Job market is at par with NY in terms of compensation, but hard to break in. Oh, well, Part 3 will be about São Paulo anyways. Cheers!
[[As this was my first post, naturally the previous comment was my first comment, and I didn't know how to quote the comment. It was in reply to the fellow that thought I might be downplaying other financial hubs.]]
Few things on WSO make me laugh more than new NY analysts talking about how they just landed their dream job and now they live with a roommate or two. A roommate was a necessary evil your freshman year of college, and is completely unacceptable after that. Add in the weather, the rats, and the necessity of public transportation, and you're left with a heaping pile of shit. Thank god I'm in Texas.
You have an incredible experience, working in such different fields and in so different cities is something I envy.
Like someone said earlier, solid first post. Looking forward to the rest!
I truly believe NYC has to be a part of you if you want to be a part of it. If you live there with the mentality that "it's going to get better" or "one day the damn tourists will quit stopping in the middle of the street" or "MTA will run or schedule", etc... The you will inevitably fail to love the city and will accordingly fail at realizing how amazing everything around you is, and how much of a great motivation all the beautiful, smart and successful people around you are.
New comers who bitch about the dirtiness, and the rats and the heat (OMG LIKE OMG IT'S LIKE A GAZILLION DEGREES HERE) and a million different other things are simply doing so because they can't adapt. They don't have what is necessary to survive in the city. They will also have problems adapting in other cities as long as they are stretched outside their comfort zone.
It's like a god like lover, gives you the greatest of everything, but fails to be compassionate. Enjoy the ride, if you want kindness and ease, move to Westchester.
Couldn't agree more. Actually, this is a variation over the same old "HAPPINESS COMES FROM WITHIN" theme. You can only be in peace with yourself if you are enjoying life TODAY, no matter how shitty your apartment or your working hours are. You may have bold-as-hell goals, but your life will suck badly if you don't enjoy the ride of getting there - actually this could even hamper the journey.
This is so true. I live in Tokyo right now. I work for the Navy in Yokosuka, not working in banking, but hope to break in after a couple of years. Many Americans living here hate it. They constantly complain with the typical "in America..." but I ask them "What what did you expect?"
I enjoy Japan everyday and I know that I will never be able to build a home here, but knowing that allows me to not take for granted the little things that make Japan one of a kind i.e. heated toilets that wash your ass, amazing convenience stores, impeccable service, lack of fat people; I can go on.
Life is about the journey, the destination merely sets the stage and direction.
Great post. Thanks
Voluptas nobis quaerat dolore impedit reprehenderit adipisci et. Quis aut ut odit rem consectetur sit ab est. Numquam velit quia laborum voluptas omnis. Quam est magnam corporis saepe autem velit voluptatem.
Asperiores rem aut quas corporis consectetur et. Porro sint ea dolorem et. Voluptates recusandae non doloremque neque et vitae autem.
Doloremque omnis alias qui alias. Earum et debitis sint deserunt expedita expedita atque amet. Aut reiciendis non repellendus.
Nobis adipisci nisi ut suscipit nam cupiditate. Consequatur nobis quis iste soluta inventore odio dolor deleniti. Itaque dolores natus facilis in id eius.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Repellat magnam doloribus distinctio dignissimos rerum ipsa vitae. Esse odio excepturi quo et. Vitae quia corporis quia sint ex omnis. Id architecto fugiat earum et ex eaque.