I'd be surprised if any of you have ever heard of NORFED or have ever seen a Liberty Dollar. 99.9% of Americans would laugh if ever presented with a Liberty Dollar for payment of a debt. Liberty Dollars don't even slightly resemble U.S. Dollars; there isn't a drop of green ink on them.
Why, then, does the U.S. government feel so threatened by an obscure group of real money proponents that they raided a private mint in Idaho and seized $7 million in privately held silver stored there? And now they're trying to get a judge to turn the silver over to them as payment for their theft.
Let me give you a little background.
In the late 1990's, Bernard von NotHaus started the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve and Internal Revenue Code, known simply as NORFED. The purpose of NORFED was to create an alternative silver-based currency that would hold its value as the Fed perverted the value of the U.S. dollar with loose money policy.
It won't surprise many of you to learn that I was an early member of the organization. What can I say? It was back when I was still idealistic enough to believe that the beast could be slain if only enough Americans became aware of what was being done to them.
The first printing of the Liberty Dollar was based on a $10 an ounce price for silver. This was at a time when silver was $5 an ounce, so it looked to some people like a scam based on that. The way I looked at it, even if I could only trade in my dollar for 50 cents worth of silver, it was still one hell of a lot more that you could get for a greenback (perverted at that point to roughly 3 cents against a dollar issued in 1912 before the Federal Reserve Act).
Of course, NORFED never took off. I think Texas was the most successful state (as in, most Liberty Dollars in circulation), but it was difficult to get businesses to accept it as money. Adoption is always the hardest part of alternative currencies. So NORFED became just another obscure arm of the real money and tax freedom movements.
But our government loves to make examples of people who try to speak truth to power. You don't have to look any further than Peter Schiff's own father, Irwin, who is currently
. Bernard von NotHaus is no different. He was convicted of counterfeiting last month (he's on bail pending appeal), and now the Feds are trying to get their hands on the privately owned silver they seized.Now I ask you, does the Liberty Dollar pictured above look anything like a greenback? Liberty Dollars are no different from company scrip, still in use in a number of American company towns today. Where are the Fed goons kicking down the doors of the folks who print Detroit's "Cheers" dollars?
I guess you only get in trouble when you print a currency that's actually worth something. At least the Fed will never have that to worry about.
Yup, the 'ruling' of taking those $$ is a joke. Or, more precisely, they do what they want when they want to keep the plebs at bay.
Anne Tompkins, you are a disgrace to your country, your profession, and your family. Firstly, you might want to learn how "terrorism" is defined.
It seems to me violence is a principal element of terrorism, but hell, if you throw around the buzz word of the moment enough, maybe you get to be a congresswoman some day.
Secondly, you need to remember that this country was founded by terrorists, as are several that we support such as Israel. When the continental dollar was first introduced, it was an illegal fiat currency. She might be well served by reading some Jefferson or de Toqueville.
The fact that such a clearly incompetent US attorney was able to get a conviction is just more testimony to the docility of the general populace.
The equating of libertarian ideas with "the radical right" as the SPLC seems to have done is ridiculous. There is a pretty big difference between recognising that debasing the currency to fund the national debt impacts you directly, and being a member of the KKK, which is what the SPLC was meant to deal with.
Another form of currency doesn't cause me any terror, I suppose the US govt. may be "terrified" of this sort of thing though. I should get rid of my chuck-e-cheese tokens, I'll probably get arrested for possessing counterfeit currency.
The Peter Schiff article was great
I think the government is going about this the wrong way, but for 2+ decades, these small commercial mints have produced coins with "face values", when they are not to be considered legal tender. I think this guy has every right to produce his coins, and to petition the government to return to the gold standard. But passing off your homemade currency as a real substitute for federally produced paper and coins is illegal.
What about making homemade 30 Year treasury notes, and then selling them as a substitute for the real thing to your rifle-toting friends? That's what this guy is essentially doing. I know a million dollar bill with the statute of liberty on it and no back is not real, but it also isn't marketed that way.
Although I agree with NotHaus, the issue here is 2-fold. First, you have the problem of creating an alternative currency for use predicated around being a non-fiat currency of which the federal government has no control over. Essentially, this is a means of breeding dissention by suggesting that alternative forms of currency should be accepted and considered legal tender over what is issued by the government. While I note that they charged him with counterfitting, a crime he never technically committed, the article also made a good point:
While I'm not a big gambler, what happens when you go to Alantic City or Las Vegas and decide to drop 10 Large on Snake Eyes on the craps table and win? You think you'll get 300 Grand back in cash? Nope, that 300 grand is returned to you in Casino Chips, a currency use to privately wager on the outcome of an event or game while on the casino floor. You can't take your chips and go, walk into a strip club and tip the dancers in 100$ poker chips becuase it's not legally accepted tender. Provided the person accepting the coins is willing to accept them as tender, there is no restriction against two people entering into a transaction in which goods and services are paid for with non-fiat currency.The second argument concerns personal ownership. If I bought 1 Ton of Physical Silver, accepted delivery and was able to store it, I could do whatever I want with said silver. The issue here is that the Federal Government is confiscating private property on an unlawful basis. There are two ways to handle this. The first is that the entire seizure is unlawful given that he was not printing US Legal Tender. The other is a matter of where in the process each ounce of silver siezed is. Finished project may constitute legal seizure, but everything else would be considered illegal as it is held by a private individual for private use. This is going to be an interesting case to follow in general though.
To touch breifly on my favorite aspect of this... there is a conspiracy theory to be stated, but I'm sure we all know about that one.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
Frieds, you couldn't be more wrong about this one! I've never met a Vegas stripper yet who wouldn't take casino chips as a tip. If you read Bringing Down the House: The Inside Story of Six M.I.T. Students Who Took Vegas for Millions, that's exactly how the MIT crew unloaded over $100,000 in MGM chips after the Tyson fight (when they could no longer just cash them in at the MGM).
Also, just about every casino will let you play with another casino's chips, though I realize that's not quite the same thing.
Was about to make the exact same point.
This is why people [I was one of them] argued so vehmently against wanton use of the word 'terrorist' at one point in time: the whole point of the anti-terrorism laws is to give the gov't a whole new set of tools with which to maintain order. And that's what this is all about, plain and simple: WHO THE FUCK IS IN CHARGE. This guy dared challenge the government and they threw him against the wall like an egg to make an example out of him. I'm not contesting that he went beyond counterfitting in that he not only printed his own money, but backed it up with silver......the point is that he challenged the power of the government and was crushed. To be intellectually honest: I don't understand what he realistically thought he would accomplish, but also fail to see how he is a terrorist.
On another note: 95% devalued currency. This forces participation in the system even when it's malfunctioning. This is a problem: why don't we deal with it directly?
Eddie,
I did read Bringing Down the House. I never said that it didn't happen. I just was using the legal perspective. In Vegas, again, the issue there is that it's considered accepted legal tender, but if you went into a strip club in Manhattan and paid with casino chips, you'd be SOL.
Yes, but remember there is a difference between what you pay a stripper, and what you tip her. Also, lots of strip clubs actually use their own internal currency.
Drexel,
It's semantics. Again, you're right in that you pay for the lapdance and you tip aftewards, but you stil won't shell out a poker chip to exchange for the house currency. Same goes for tipping... you don't usually tip in poker chips outside of Vegas. Also, the internal currency at a strip club just works to further my point.
I love that strippers and poker are being used in a discussion to analyze a counterfeiter who's being prosecuted for terrorism. .....and the arguments hold up! This is good shit!
Of course; I'm just making sure that none of the innocent monkeys on here feel like they shouldn't put Harrah's chips in a girl's panties
Do you think a stripper would get mad if you put a poker chip in her good bits and then played dumb saying that all your friends told you it was called a coin slot?
Got my silver calls I should be ok
Got my silver calls I should be ok
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