Looks like Citadel Commodities recruits FT for undergrads. Can anybody provide insight into how this works? Linkedin says they target mostly past QR SAs and turn them into traders.
Could you sell a physical trading role w/ a quant major and econometrics/ML capabilities? Also do they recruit for softs specifically?
currently recruiting for commodities SAs and curious what programs feed into this.
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Ah, the bustling world of commodities trading at a powerhouse like Citadel! It's a realm where the sharp and the shrewd thrive. Now, let's dive into the nitty-gritty of your inquiry, shall we?
First off, Citadel Commodities indeed has a reputation for scouting talent that can navigate the complex waters of commodities trading. The transition from Quantitative Research Summer Analysts (QR SAs) to full-time traders isn't unheard of. It's a path paved with numbers, algorithms, and a hefty dose of market intuition. These QR SAs often bring a strong foundation in quantitative analysis, which is crucial in today's trading environment.
Now, onto the crux of your curiosity: leveraging a background in physical trading with a quant major and econometrics/machine learning capabilities. My friend, you're holding a golden ticket! The world of trading, especially at a place like Citadel, values the ability to dissect and predict market movements through quantitative means. Your skills in econometrics and machine learning are like a Swiss Army knife in this field—versatile and powerful.
As for recruiting for soft commodities specifically, the landscape is vast. While the context doesn't provide a direct answer, it's common for firms like Citadel to seek talent across the spectrum of commodities, including softs (think agricultural products like coffee, sugar, cotton). The key is to showcase how your quantitative skills can be applied to any commodity, soft or otherwise.
For those currently recruiting for commodities Summer Analyst positions and wondering about the feeder programs into full-time roles, it's essential to focus on building a robust skill set in quantitative analysis, market research, and trading strategies. Programs that emphasize these areas, coupled with internships that offer hands-on experience, are your best bet.
Remember, the world of commodities trading is dynamic and ever-evolving. Stay curious, keep sharpening those quant skills, and don't shy away from opportunities to dive into the deep end of econometrics and machine learning. Who knows? You might just be the next trading prodigy Citadel is looking for. Keep swinging for the fences!
Sources: 43 Diversity Recruiting Programs at Investment Banks - The Most Exhaustive List, Teller's Comprehensive Guide to Diversity Recruiting, Q&A: I'm an Agricultural Commodities Trader, Physical Commodities Trading 2022 Graduate Program Megathread, S&T Recruitment 2011: An Applicants Story
Ah, the bustling world of commodities trading at a powerhouse like Citadel! It's a jungle out there, but let's swing through the vines and break it down for you.
First off, Citadel Commodities diving into the full-time (FT) recruitment pool for undergrads is like spotting a rare bird in the wild. They're known for their keen eye, especially focusing on those who've had a stint as Quantitative Research Summer Analysts (QR SAs). It's like they're looking for the Indiana Jones of trading - someone who's had adventures in the quantitative jungle and lived to tell the tale.
Now, onto your question about selling a physical trading role with a quant major and a toolkit packed with econometrics and machine learning (ML) capabilities. Picture this: you're not just selling yourself as a trader; you're the Swiss Army knife in a world of pocket knives. The quant major gives you the analytical prowess, while your econometrics and ML skills are like having a high-powered satellite to predict weather patterns in the trading universe. It's a compelling pitch, especially in a field that increasingly values the ability to dissect vast amounts of data to make informed decisions.
As for recruiting for soft commodities specifically, it's like asking if there's a secret map to hidden treasures. Citadel Commodities, like many trading firms, tends to keep their cards close to their chest regarding specific recruitment strategies. However, given the breadth of commodities trading, it wouldn't be outlandish to think they have their eyes on talent across the spectrum, from the hard metals clashing in the pits to the soft whispers of the wheat fields.
For those currently recruiting for commodities Summer Analyst positions and wondering what programs feed into the full-time roles, think of it as preparing for an expedition. Programs that offer a deep dive into quantitative analysis, risk management, and even internships that give you a taste of the trading floor are your base camps. They're where you equip yourself with the knowledge and skills to tackle the challenges ahead.
Remember, in the world of commodities trading, being versatile, analytical, and having a knack for predicting the next big move are your best tools. Whether you're aiming for Citadel or another fortress in the trading realm, showcasing your unique blend of skills could just be the golden ticket you need.
Keep those questions coming, and let's navigate the trading jungles together!
Sources: 43 Diversity Recruiting Programs at Investment Banks - The Most Exhaustive List, Q&A: I'm an Agricultural Commodities Trader, Teller's Comprehensive Guide to Diversity Recruiting, Physical Commodities Trading 2022 Graduate Program Megathread, S&T Recruitment 2011: An Applicants Story
Your physical experience and data science background would be well valued. The commodities team is mostly energy. I can only speak for their US trading teams. They have an oil desk, a paper gas desk, a physical gas desk, and a power desk. There’s a Chinese wall between their physical and paper trading ops for gas. I heard they added aggs at some point but the team is very small and in development, but this was 3 years ago. I think any kind of physical commodities internship would be viewed very positively. If you have the option, I’d suggest you switch from softs to a larger market like gas or power. It’s very easy to pull this off when you’re just starting out and much harder later on.
thanks for the advice whey, been reading your posts around here on energy.
for context, I’m a first year rn. I have a role at a commodities focused HF on a softs desk for the summer, doing fundis data analysis. So a year or so away from recruiting.
curious for your thoughts on these questions if you have the time:
1.) any idea where the best places are to join as a junior? Other than Macquarie, Castleton, and the handful of decent TDPs, are there any other good roles?
2.) while I have a quant role this summer, I definetly do not consider it my strongsuit or edge. I go to a strong STEM target and a little above average among the quant crowd. Will this hurt my edge as a trader?
3.) I imagine not many HFs have commodities strats, if you blow out of Citadel and Millenium, where are you supposed to go?
4.) saw you have a PhD, do you think there is a secular trend for commodities strats to hire out of grad programs (meteorology, electrical engineering, stats, etc)?
5.) what does pod structure look like at MMs for commodities? What are the common industry sources for analysts.
Sorry for all the questions. Wanna figure out if it’s practical to recruit for this.
1. you can add in physical trading shops like glencore, phibro, bp, shell, louis dreyfus commodities etc. they all have graduate training programs. you can try your luck with the big energy funds (geosol, statar) for internships but they almost certainly would not hire someone straight out of school. In general, most big commodities funds do not advertise or seek attention. The best way I found is to start at a big name like Citadel and just start clicking around to see where people landed.
2. if you're above average in the quant crowd you're at the 99th % for commodities traders
3. if you blow out of citadel you go to millenium. if you blow out of millenium you go to balyasny. if you blow out of balyasny you go to veriton. if you blow out of veriton you should rethink your life and maybe stop trading.
4. there's a trend in fundamental energy trading to hire STEM backgrounds who can code very well for analysts, not PhDs in particular. Almost no PhDs I know transition into trading; they tend to prefer being a career analyst which is just a lifestyle choice.
5. In the past it was the same as any l/s equities pod. Now there is too much information for any single PM to track, so there is a trend towards centralizing fundies research (this is how citadel does it) rather than independent pods shallowly duplicating efforts. However, it's very difficult for strict pod shops like millenium to manage this transition due to compensation allocation.
How did you get the softs desk internship as a first year?
replied to wrong comment
I can speak to my process with citadels commods in euro for ft/internships. Got approached to see if I wanted to have a conversation with them about ft/internship opportunities while I was interning at another fund in euro nat gas. Had a call with the recruiter who basically said what we all know in euro nat gas trading that they are a bsd, did a couple interviews with a number of the teams before deciding citadel straight out of uni wasn't for me. So why did I say no even though their fundies euro nat gas team is probably the most successful pod ever at any hedge fund.... Pretty simple they run massive teams to produce the fundies and it is actually quite rare that you see progression from analyst to trader and you are super specialised super early on eg your job is to model the boarder power infrastructure between Spain and France. If you want to be an analyst for career and dont mind getting super specialised no better place to work. (also if you dont mind signing a 12 month non compete as an intern.....)
Well said, very good information. That said this is Citadel at all levels they are all about finding "the expert of the field" vs grooming PMs/Sr-analysts so it happens to everyone. Especially in commodities division as they have a longer history than most funds trading things like natural gas and know how liquid/scalable it is.
FT hiring is still very selective and as mentioned a very specific culture. OP would say focus on seeing how your internship goes and what you think of commodities/soft-aggs in general if within a month of the job it is what you seem to enjoy would then consider looking further into energy specific internships. The name of firms on here is a wide wide range, but paper trading for sure will lean much more data-science/quant. T
The top large funds that trade paper commodities is Citadel/MLP/Baly/DE_Shaw and unlike other poster I would not rank any one above the other, they all have different cultures and styles. As an example; Citadel has tried to hire an MLP PM away for years now, while DE just lost one of their top guys to MLP.
do you know how quant I will need to be for paper trading? By recruiting, I should be able to do econometrics, time series, code in python/R/c++, and basic, basic machine learning. What skills should I push forward, or do I not need to prioritize specific courses?
Look I know I've got to try it out first, but recruiting for 2025 SA is already over for this year...they give you 0 time to think.
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