Am I at a Sweatshop?
I recently joined as an Associate at an EB and recently got back into banking post-COVID. Heard hours were bad overall but wanted to get a sense for if my firm/group was average or especially bad.
No exaggeration at all and I've been keeping a log for my hours every day to make sure it's accurate.
- Usually log on around 8:30 - 9:00am and wake to some ASAP tasks sent early morning from senior people
- Throughout the day, there is not a single moment of "free" time. The only time I get to eat, grab a coffee, shower or to go outside is when I make up an excuse like I have another call or something
- Tons of last minute ASAP tasks come up that have been in the MD's inbox for X days but they didn't get a chance to look at it until now
- Zero training and fully plugged in from day one leaving me feeling legitimately confused even though I did 3 years as a banking analyst at another firm
- Average log off time of 2-3am with maybe one night at 12-1am and one night at 4-5am; Fridays are usually chill though and can get off around 9pm
- Worked every Saturday and Sunday so far, although Saturday work as mostly been light <5 hrs
It's tough and I'm doing OK, but I really wonder how sustainable this is long term. Most Associates have quit in my group which is why they are hiring a bunch of people. How does this compare with what other people are experiencing?
.
How is that even a question...I'd rather be unemployed than do that. Why would you ever put up with that level of disrespect for your own life from an employer?
This isn't that bad I don't think (relatively of course). Curious to hear others' opinions.
clown if not trolling
It's bad, but this just seems like banking hours to me. Very similar to my shop. Maybe I need to lateral.
SWEATY
I think you answered the question about sustainability when you mentioned the heavy turnover. As for the sweatshop question, I'm saying yes but there is room for it to get worse if those Saturday hours flex upwards. I'm sure others on this forum will see this is as average (those in other sweatshops). Best of luck.
This is totally a sweatshop and unless you are deadset on making it to MD over having friends, family, a significant other, you will 100% burnout. I would try and find a group, any group, even within the same EB that has better hours because that is absurd.
Sounds pretty average to me.
no this is not average
I’m at a firm commonly-described as a sweatshop and it’s like that
Ie, you're at a sweatshop
Your Friday sounds terrible, the rest seem like what I would expect at a top BB/EB group as 1st Y analyst. But your an associate...
Weekends do sound rough but consistent with high deal flow. As an associate, it certainly is worse than average
It's weird... in my group Associates are making a lot of PPT slides and models and a ton of what I would consider "analyst" work at my old firm. Like I'm deep in diligence trackers and making a lot of PPTs from scratch and my analysts usually just tells me they are busy and get off the hook for everything leaving me to do it. But even when they do help, it often times creates more work than if I just did it myself. It's not like that for every deal, but I'm on 4 live deals and a pitch right now and 2 of those deals I'm effectively both the analyst and associate.
Sweat shop 100%
Say the firm too.
Maybe that’s 70 percentile-ish of BB
Yes, that’s sweaty. I’m also at an EB known to be sweaty and had a first year like that. It does get better as a second year Aso, but definitely sweaty.
... how much better your second year? Would appreciate concrete hours numbers
Probably 10-15 hours better per week, on average. I was Aso1 all of COVID in a group with strong deal flow throughout most of the year, so I was probably averaging a rough 85hrs per week in 2020, with multiple 100hr weeks in there. Now it’s more like 70-75, with longer hours obviously during an end-stage live process. I was also ranked top bucket and am seen as a rising star FWIW, but I think that’s a function of quickly “getting it” and earning the trust and respect of both analysts and VPs/MDs during my first 1.5 years.
Basically, those 2am nights are now 11pm-12am, I’m usually off by 7pm on a Friday, I almost never work on a Saturday, and I usually put in 3-6 low key hours on a Sunday split between early morning and evening. Certainly makes the lifestyle more sustainable and the job more enjoyable.
Honestly, my 2-3rd year associates and VPs work more than me. They are absolute machines. My VPs are usually up with me at 2-3am every night.
Sounds sweaty, but is similar to what I've heard from some other Associates at BBs. Would a Summer Associate be expected follow this same schedule during his/her summer?
And this is why I don’t wanna go into IB lol
same
That sounds pretty bad to me....
This is what it has unfortunately been like since last July / August. Crazy deal flow, tons of turnover, and expectations to be available 24/7. I’ve worked more as a senior associate than I did during any of my analyst years
Geez this sounds sweaty...
Lets do the math!!:
M-Th: 9:00am to 2:00 am = 17 x 4 = 68 hours
Friday 9:00am to 9:00 pm = 12 hours
Saturday: "less than 5 hours" lets call it 3 hours
Sunday: How much on Sunday? Assuming a semi full day since you describe Saturday as light... lets call it 7 hours?
68+12+3+7 = 90 hours a week plus or minus 5-10 hours?
From what I've heard consistent 90+ hour weeks (at the Associate level) is totally a sweatshop. Other forums on this thread describe the hours (even As1) as 75-80 average a week. If more of your associate peers are leaving in your bank verse other banks then that might be a sign as well.
Yup, it's been 90 hrs on average... although low 80s my first 2 weeks. I honestly work more than my analysts do. A lot of them don't know how to do anything (not really their fault, but sometimes it's just they can't follow simple instructions) and everything they give me I basically have to completely rework.
That's really $hitty to hear. Is this because from WFH you think?
Tbf, you should be teaching them. They’re 22 and 23yos in their first job and your assumption should be they don’t know anything. I always take the extra 5-10hrs and walk them through things meticulously the first time so that they actually get it rather than nodding their heads and going off to fumble with their dicks for hours on end. It basically always saves time on the back end, the analysts appreciate the mentorship and makes your life way better.
I am. I spend a lot of time screen sharing with them. But some that I work with I will literally say: do this. And they just ignore/forget it completey
Then go to the staffer and say clearly they’re too busy to be able to work on your project to the extent required and pls can we have an additional analyst?
No offense, but management/leadership sounds like it’s going to be an issue for you as you advance in banking, and may limit you if you’re already having these problems.
In the end, you can’t be seen as blah and ignorable by your analysts, or anyone under you for that matter. You either need to be feared or respected, with the latter going much further IMO and making people genuinely work hard for you because they don’t want to let you down and they know you also have their back. 20 years ago a lot of banking ran on fear from stories I’ve heard, but that’s clearly changing significantly. Either way, seek a mentor and get advice in this area if you are genuinely struggling with this, as it will be your limiting factor if you’re trying to make a career of this.
I’m at a sweatshop EB and what you described sounds exactly to what I have. These hours were a shock to me even though I had previous IB exp before joining…. Our VP is literally grinding hard too, probably working longer hours than the juniors doing models, pitches, comps, everything.
funny enough, one MD is the cause of all of this.. he sucks 60-70% of the resources in the office. The other MD (we are a small team), uses the other 40-30% of the resources. Both generate the same revenue though.
Can’t wait to see that bonus and test the theory that we get paid more than bigger banks… if my bonus is below avg then I’m out of here.
Doesn’t sound like a sweatshop to me, but feel free to ask again in 4-5 years
Jk
Firstly, is post COVID official
Secondly, you’re not going to make it long-term
Thirdly, you better have your resume updated and start interviewing. You’ll be axed within a year if you stay
Why would they be fired?
🤡
Covid has made every firm like this. The difference is what the firm is doing about it - talk to your bosses about it and let them know what your expectation is on hours. If they can’t restaff stuff or add more resources then quit for a firm that will provide that.
Problem is it will look super bad quitting a firm only having been there a couple of months.
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