Mod Note (Andy): #TBT Throwback Thursday - this was originally posted on 5/20/13. To see all of our top content from the past, click here. Make sure to see the great comment below by CompBanker.
I come from a small town where nobody had ever heard of consulting or IB. I was fortunate enough to attend a top target college (a good Ivy) and land a gig in IB at a BB/EB. I'm starting full time this summer.
I've noticed that my personality has changed a lot since high school. Over college, I began hanging with a lot of rich preppy kids and have adopted a lot of their prejudices and mannerisms. Since junior year recruiting, I've spent more and more time around the kids going into IB or consulting and I realize more and more that my personality is slowly changing.
I'm way less accepting of people from diverse backgrounds, I judge people based on the job they have, I worry a lot about doing something "prestigious" with my life, I worry a lot about status symbols like clothes and watches and money, I'm a lot more lax about drugs, I have lost touch with some of my more interesting hobbies, etc. I've also networked so much and have become friends with so many people for utilitarian reasons that I feel as though I ultimately judge a lot of people based on what they can potentially do for me, rather than on their true character. This happens all over my campus.
For example, you frequently will see incredibly weird or arrogant or otherwise negative people who everyone wants to be friends with just because their dad is the CEO/CFO/Head of IB of a major bank or just because they have a job at GS or BX or whatever. Everyone casually name-drops their resume in the middle of conversations with each other at the awkwardest times and talks about their LSAT and GMAT and work stuff. They gossip about each other's majors and career plans and guess on who will be more successful than whom. And everyone knows that everyone is silently being judged in those conversations where everyone shares where they work. The moment where someone says the bank they are at or the job they are in determines how that person will be treated in the future, which I see as incredibly fucked up.
I feel as though I'm becoming an incredibly fake, not-down-to-earth person. I'm sure I'll change even more when working 24/7 with people like this at the office. I don't think I'd be able to push back against any peer pressure at all because I'd want to fit in and thus be seen as a good analyst. Also, not fitting in would make life hell given the number of hours you're working with the people in your group.
Can financial culture be harmful?
The thing is, I feel like I've been indoctrinated into this culture for so long now that I have trouble relating to people who aren't as "ambitious" as a lot of my friends. This happened today when I talked to some of my old friends and some new acquaintances. I get really embarrassed when they ask where I will be working or what I will be doing when they haven't even found a job yet or are working in Wisconsin or work as a cashier. We can't relate to each other and then it becomes awkward. There are no crutches to lean on like in conversations with finance people. And then I wonder if everyone I meet, including women, are also beginning to see me as a means to an end. I know a ton of people who I hang out with on a regular basis, who I feel as though would never hang out with me (and I wouldn't hang out with them) if it weren't for the fact that we both are working in IB. I remember there was this one kid that a lot of people hung out with and after he didn't get a return offer from his job and he ended up somewhere "lesser," people started spending less time with him. Everyone in this culture measures their self worth by their job.
And why is there so much attention afforded to people who have IB or consulting jobs? We didn't create anything interesting or do anything unique. Through pseudo-stalker networking, a million awkward coffee chats and a superficial memorization of an interview guide, we successfully convinced a (likely-corrupt) institution into offering us a really high wage to make powerpoints and spreadsheets for corporations who want to make mergers that are usually bad for shareholders. And for all the elitism, most people outside the field (who didn't grow up going to the Hamptons every summer) do not know what IB is and definitely don't know the difference in "prestige" between a GS and a CS. For those people who have heard about these firms, they see us as criminals.
As much as I want to be successful, the types of people who work in this industry honestly really disgust me sometimes. Anyone ever navigate through this psychotic culture and make it out the other side as a relatively normal human being?
Well, you're clearly introspective enough to see this in yourself. My guess: you'll be ok. Just don't forget where you came from.
I'd take this one step further - own where you come from. I was happy to be known as a farm kid/hick when I lived in NYC. It helps differentiate you while also reminding you where you came from. I think people liked me for it more because I never tried to fit some stereotype. Don't buy into the over-extravagance and BS prestige that people love to trade on. Be a simple, hardworking person, and people will like you for it, even if they don't necessarily understand you.
i second this... I am originally from a small town in trhe midwest near south dakota/nebraska - own it. It will keep you level headed in this industry. As a first year analyst - especially in banking, you will have control over essentially 2 things in your life for that first year: your level of effort, and how you treat other people - both of which will have profound effects on your life moving foward. Remember where you came from and take the best parts of it and let them flow through to your new life... my 2 cents
I totally agree with your points and I have witnessed them first hand. This is a reflection on the success culture that you can get caught up in while trying to fit in.
I realized that IB sucks you in. You might not realize it at first, but it slowly molds you and sucks your soul. The more you work in high finance, the more you are committed to that lifestyle and trying to maintain status quo among your colleagues and friends. That's the cut throat culture of IB. Some of the people who work in IB are psychopaths and sociopaths, ones who will kill for their jobs at any cost. I mean how else would you explain all that has gone on in the past 5 years and people still relentlessly gun for these jobs. Even as an intern, I witnessed sabotage, cheating, stealing, lying, manipulating and plain idiocy. All in all, it's just a game and everyone has their own limit. Don't be naive. The hard part in all of this is fitting in, sticking with the culture and realizing that people are are just there to make $$.
Bottom line, the more time you spend in IB, the more you realize the little things and the more you adapt with or without being cognizant of the changes you are making. Check out the leveragedsellout book for some funny commentary on all of this.
Generally speaking, I know what you're talking about. But in time, I think you'll realize money and prestige doesn't mean shit. I have friends who just graduated from a prestigious law school and I felt like such a loser being at their party. But on the other hand, I have HS friends who are still at community college trying to make ends meet as a barber or at a restaurant. In prospective, your occupation doesn't mean shit. There's always someone above you and someone below you. All you can do is be real and surround yourself with people who like you for you. The real people will always gravitate to the real and the fake do as well.
The one good thing about hanging out with "prestigious" people is that your expectations of yourself will always be higher than it would be otherwise.
I think it also matters a lot where you live. If you move to NYC, this type of attitude is prevalent, not just among bankers, but the majority of people you would interact with in the city. It becomes hard not to feel this when every young person you meet out is doing something amazing with their lives and judging others for the what they are doing. Likewise, if you end up in Chicago, there is a much more working mentality to many of the young people. It just becomes easier to relax and not worry about those things.
For me this struggle with the "success culture" started in high school. My friends and I were the brightest students in our class and we went insane with the college admissions process--constantly comparing ourselves to each other, obsessing over admissions decisions in the spring, taking the ACT 4 or 5 times, reading CollegeConfidential religiously, etc. Junior and senior year was awful for me, absolutely awful, I had a breakdown as a male 18 year old HS senior in front of my family over a poor ACT score in sept. of my senior year.
After HS I thought it would get better as I was admitted to a selective, prestigious university (my top choice) in decemeber of senior year. But once I was there I realized that the rat race was not only still present, it had only intensified. A lot of kids want to go IB or consulting but we're all competing against each other and theres only a few spots. Plus when you're at a top university there are so many people with amazing resumes and GPAs that you just feel worthless compared to them. And I know that if I did get an IB job, it would only get even WORSE from there as everyone is competing to get into Bschool and get offers after their analyst stint.
My perspective is that money and prestige are great but that ultimately our lives are short and essentially meaningless. I find I care a lot more about how other people perceive me than how intrinsically happy I actually am and I want that to stop. Within a few decades we will all be dead and no one will give a shit how much money you made or where you worked or went to school. Eventually the sun will become a red giant, engulf the earth, and we will all be blasted back into the carbon and other elements we came from, scattered about the universe when the sun collapses on itself and explodes. We are just a few people on one planet out of trillions in the universe, so it doesn't really matter.
But hey, who knows, maybe in a few hundred million years from now, the atoms that used to make up your body may cross paths with those that once were a part of the elegant glass exterior of that famous building at 200 West Street.
maybe im a weirdo but the competition is actually what makes it fun.
Be driven, but be caution of being judgmental. Second you start judging people or shitting on them is the second your flaws become magnified.
I'm a southerner and I'm in the same predicament as you. Recently have noticed the changes of being more judgmental and harsh. I show off my ego and superiority subtly, but that makes it all the more dangerous.
Like you, I'd prefer to go back to being the kind and thoughtful person. The person who isn't swayed by so many materialistic things. I tend to actually like non-finance people way more, but then realize I need to be around finance people to further my career. They are not the type I would hang around if I had the choice, just like you said.
Btw, most people down here don't know the difference between ops and IBD....they think they are on the same prestige level, which pisses me off when someone says they have Citi or Barclays ops, and everyone's like wow! Then again, that's the judgmental me that I'm trying to remove.
You went to an Ivy school...I go to a big state school, where people are even less concerned about prestige and stuff. Landing an ops role is considered really good...
My goal is to be the biggest tool alive on earth
This is pretty common. I went through the same evolution and it took me a couple of years to realize that it had even happened. It is a terrible feeling when you wake up one day and realize that you're an asshole. You want to go back and apologize to all of those people that you degraded but you can't. So, a few quick points of advice from someone who has been there:
1) The company you keep is of the utmost importance. Don't surround yourself exclusively by other finance professionals. Surround yourself by people that share the same values as you do. This might require a meaningful change in your life outside of work. Instead of getting bottle service on Friday night, go out with your non-finance friends to the cheaper bars in town. When you do, talk about something other than work. Ask them about their life, their passions, and just be a normal friend. Afterall, this is the core of what relationships are built on. If you really struggle with this, consider looking for jobs outside of major cities, particularly NYC.
2) Resist the urge to qualify and prove yourself. If someone doesn't know the difference between Goldman IBD and Goldman Janitorial Services, don't attempt to explain it to them. Don't hint at how much you get paid. Don't EVER try to one-up someone else's experiences or problems. Your friend got called back into work at 8pm to deal with a server problem? Don't tell them how 8pm is an early night for you. Sympathize. Sometimes people like to vent and downplaying their problems is an easy way to lose friends.
3) Stop buying expensive / flashy things, or at least don't wear them outside of the office. You don't need a $10,000 watch nor Ferragamo shoes, and quite honestly no one really cares at the end of the day. This will help you resist the urge to show off your financial success, per point #2.
4) Let others do the talking. Even if you have something to say, listen more and talk less. No one ever dislikes the quiet guy in the group. It is loud people that risk annoying other people.
Being hot
The only thing you need to dominate Wall Street, if all else failed in life be "GRITTY"
Empathy + low integrity.
It's a rarely encountered combination, but makes for killer salespeople.
How old are you?
If you just graduated recently, then you'll soon realize that money and prestige don't really take you as far as you think they will. You'll see less prestigious from people from high school working their way up and getting good jobs despite their poor pedigree, or people with mediocre jobs who are much happier with their lives than you are because they have a better work/life balance. You'll probably also see coworkers flame out/get laid off.
Basically, life is absolutely nothing like school where people can be easily ranked on some sort of prestige spectrum. It takes a few years to get that BS out of your system (along with all the other pernicious nonesense that you learn in school). I used to think like you do (though perhaps not as severely) but I'm quite glad to say that now the only thing I give a hoot about when talking to someone is whether they're cool and interesting to talk to. That's it.
I'm a senior IB analyst, who was offered the associate promote, and when I turned that down was offered an associate promote to a related fund that the bank owns that does corporate PE investments.
I'm not taking either of them, exactly for reasons that the OP called out. While, I'm sure it's not like this at every bank, I feel that 90% of the people I have met or interacted with this job could categorically be described as immoral or just bad people.
If psycopaths make up 1% of the population, but 3-4% in the corporate world (studies have more or less shown this), I'd be shocked if the number isn't somewhere in the mid to high teens in banking (at least at senior levels). It's almost a pre-requisite to be able to treat people as objects, consistently misrepresent information to people who trust you with important corporate information, and abuse anyone junior to you in the contrive banking hierarchy in order to be successful in this industry. While at the junior level, and in the short run, the skills you gain may well be worth this trade-off for some, many, many undergraduates go into this culture naively with no comparable experience to relate to. Being around people like this for 98% of the time you're awake is not something to discount lightly. Unfortunately, for many who have never struggled before in an academic setting, they view themselves as invincible and have no idea what types of immoral people they will be interacting with on a daily basis. There's a reason investment bankers face more serioues health problems (physical and mental, including depression) than many others (see "Hazard of the Trade: Bankers Health." WSJ. Feb 15, 2012).
My advice to you, OP, is to take seriously the concerns you've identified for yourself. Investment banking is not, by any means, the be all and end all. As a point of reference, look to those 20 years ahead in their career and see if they seem happy with their lives. Despite their success, almost all the senior people I work with (including clients) appear to 1) miserable or 2) to thoroughly enjoy abusing others through the guise of allowable corporate culture, which harkens back to our shared point on psycopathy. What ultimately made me decide to leave this bloodsucking culture was the realization that I don't want to end up like that in 20 years. I can too easily see myself regret the life I threw away in exchange for being able to buy stuff that, ultimately, no one really gives a shit about (including yourself). I mean, how happy will you be for your 30 minute drive to work in the morning in your ferarri if you dread the day that follows? Is that worth it to you? If it is, maybe banking's the right place for you. Otherwise, stray from the temptation to buy into other 22 year old bullshit about how pretigious they are, and figure out a better alternative life path while you sill can.