GS/MS/JPM vs BAML/Citi/DB? Is culture/vibes worth ditching "prestige"?
Hey Guys.
Question as above.
Some people have said it's a no-brainer to pick the place where you like the people more. Some others have said it's a no-brainer to get the brand, especially for a 2yr analyst stint that doesn't mean shit in the long run.
Firm 1: GS/MS/JPM with people you are okay with, but they seem a little unfriendly/arrogant OR Firm 2: A very slightly less reputable BB where you really liked everyone you talked to, and everyone was really nice to you and made a special effort to get you an offer. The phrase "open arms" came to mind.
Any thoughts? I don't think I'd be miserable at the first firm by any means, but the second firm really made me feel at home. Does the slightly better brand REALLY make a significant difference?
Your thoughts on the matter? Do banks really differ that much by culture or is firm 2 just really trying to reel me in?
A top group in one of those "less prestigious" BB should be as good/better than an average group at JPM/MS/GS. I think this is quite personal, but I would choose fit over prestige - at the end of the day, you are going to work 100h per week with those people, it is better if you feel good. I would also not generalise - maybe the people you met at JPM/MS/GS weren't very cool, but they are not all like that
all I have to say is FATK army checking in
Choose the second firm. Working IB hours is tough, but it's next to impossible if you're working with people whom you don't like.
Speaking from personal experience, I'd rather work 90 hrs/week with a crew I love than 40-50 with a crew I hate. Imagine how I feel about 90 with a crew you hate.
If you're worried about buy-side recruiting then don't. A lot of that is going to come down to what responsibilities you have as an analyst. If you click well with a tier 2 firm you may very well get better deal experience than you will at a tier 1 firm where you aren't a good fit with(and consequently not very well liked by) the group.
Fit > Prestige. Seriously.
Yeah, to build on what's been said. This is kind of like you choosing what group to hang out with on the playground at this point. Culture can vary not only between banks but between groups. Simple example is there is a group down the hall that I'd jump out the window before going to work for, but I like mine. You might choose wrong, but going with a group that your gut tells you is wrong just for prestige is a huge mistake.
Just to play devil's advocate, it is possible that 1) you only met a small portion of the group and potenially didn't get a good picture of average personality, and 2) they are actually nice but just huge dicks when interviewing (this happens somewhat often in my experience). I would lean more toward picking the top group personally, but just my 2c.
Broadly. Fit over prestige.
That being said if its actually Goldman, take Goldman.
It's going to suck no matter what. Go with Prestige + paycheck
If any of the people who've replied so far are first year analysts, don't listen to them. They'll change their minds when they don't get any decent interviews.
Prestige gap matters a ton when recruiting for buyside.
........
It depends on what you want. If you're concerned about future opportunities (i.e. you're not trying to be a banking lifer), take the better firm. While it's fantastic that everyone here's uttering the nice platitudes of "you need to be surrounded by people you get along with," if your primary focus is getting paid and getting to the best next role, you need every bit of help you can get.
Recruiting is immensely competitive. At the other firm you may be cozy with your analyst class and the rest of the team in your group, but you can't put that in the bank nor can you use it to make headhunters put you in front of better firms or those firms invite you into their process.
Prestige Vs. Culture (Originally Posted: 02/15/2008)
Hey guys -
I find myself in a situation where I have the choice between a very prestigious firm with an excellent Brand name and a firm that has a lesser reputation with a really really good culture (the guys I met there seemed very cool and easy going).
Which should one choose - any advice would be greatly appreciated.
FT or SA? How many people did you meet at each firm (approx)?
What position level you apply to, and where are you located? SA in NYC is one thing, FT analyst in Moscow is another, Associate in London is also different in this respect.
Ok
1) It is for a full time Analyst position in London. Both have offered a 1 year transfer to NYC in year 3 if I wish to do so.
2) I have met the whole team in the less prestigious firm and I have meet 1 VP, 2 asociates and 1 analyst in the prestigious place.
Its a really tough call for me.
In London, working for a more prestigeous firm is a better option, I think. Though, it may also depend on the group within the prestigeous bank - it happens that some groups pretty much suck even in the best banks. Not often, though
Yea, and a transfer to NYC is not needed, London is now a better place to work in IB. Better opt to transfer to some booming emerging market for a year, this kind of experience will be times more valuable down the road (as well as you will be earning more money this way)
Thanks for the info guys. I know that London is rocking in terms of IB, thats why the transfer to NYC is optional for me.
Also the team I would be joining in both of the banks is the same - both of which are very highly regarded in their sector. So the experience gained will be similar.....
Dilemma - Very friendly team and good guys - little prestige or the Possibility of having a team full of d**ks with lots of prestige.
Although I will say you can get a pretty good idea of what people are like in an interview, in no way are you going to get the full spectrum from everyone. Sure that VP or MD might seem "cool" right now, and he or she might very well be a great person - but you won't know who they truly are until you are working under them.
Once you start producing material for them, the personality in the interview is often a lost memory, as your new relationship depends on how demanding/critical/understanding they are towards you. Remember this job boils down to sales - and the guys at the top are good at selling things, so don't let a decision of Tier B with good guys versus Tier A with possibly good guys come down to a 30 minute sales pitch.
(In the end your gut instinct is probably correct, I am just playing devil's advocate here because it can seem quite silly to base the next 2-3 years of your life off one day meeting new people).
I'd pick the better culture if you know its good for sure. you can always make more money or get better exit opps, but that's not going to make you happy in the long run.
Thanks Buck thats a real good point - although the less reputable firm carried out 6 stages of interview. So I def got a good insight into the guys in the firm. And as you say and I feel = the prestigious firm is the most rational choice.
Thanks Dosk
Here is my position:
This is for a full time analyst position. After my BB summer internship I had numerous m&a offers inc Goldman and MS, so getting my foot in the door with a BB is not a worry. At this stage I was also interviewing with a number of the top boutiques ie Evercore, Greenhill. During this process i was invited to interview with a very good restructuring shop (top 3 but not as good a brand) in which I really really liked. The guys in the firm were awesome, they seemed enthusiastic and very driven. I had no thoughts or feelings about the BB offers I had been made and signed the contract there and then. A bit rash maybe!
After this I let GS, MS etc know that I had now signed a contract and that I was declining their offers.
Now I find myself in the position where a very prestigious restructuring shop (more well known for their PE) has invited me in for a chat. Assuming that I will get an offer from them - I am in a position that will sacrifice either - the prestige or the guys the i liked in the first place.
"From having interviewed for buyside jobs, I can tell you it really doesn't matter at that level... a bulge bracket is a bulge bracket. Coming from smaller places, you will have more trouble getting your foot in the door though."
dosk, do you think this holds true for the top boutiques? I thought places like Greenhill and Lazard place just as well (if not better) on the buyside...
A bit of a side question, but what do the hedge fund opportunities look like coming out of Greenhill/Lazard? I know PE gets a lot of discussion, but I was curious about other buyside positions.
ban3171: Yeah the top boutiques are basically like bulge brackets so exit opps will still be good and you won't have much trouble. I'm referring more to true regional boutiques and such.
Not sure on hedge fund opps - I think those places do tend to be more geared toward PE because they do mostly M&A. But you should still be able to get your foot in the door at HFs.
Sounds like you're deciding between Blackstone and Houlihan- right? In many casse, it is very important to choose the bank where you like the people the most.
However, if it is indeed BX vs. Hou, I personally would choose BX.
Prestige v. Culture (Originally Posted: 11/03/2011)
If you had an exploding offer (within a week) with an elite boutique (evr/ghl/BX), but didn't really jive with the culture or the people there, would you take it? Currently don't have other offers, so I was interested in hearing your opinions.
take it. Rescind it afterwards if you don't like it if the offer is exploding now
100% take it.
Take it. Just like interviewing is an imperfect method to find the candidate who fits best with the firm's culture, it's also impossible to tell the culture of a firm through just a couple 30 minute interactions.
Who knows? Maybe you'll end up actually liking the people.
Unless you have other options take it.
this is more like job. vs unemployment
take it. congrats.
Take it, you could at least try to leverage it for something else.
If you have to ask I feel like you don't deserve the answer
seriously...
how do you not know the answer?
If you don't have any other offers I'm confused where the question is. Take the offer you have in hand and you can leverage it, or worst case scenario you end up with a job with people who you don't get along with that well...at least you'll have a job with a firm that gets recognition and will provide you with some exit opps.
Take it now, transfer later
next topic
Normally, I would say fuck it, but not in this economy. BTW, who works at these firms for the culture? I hear all of them are horrible as far as junior bankers go.
Ok, I know that's absurd, but seriously: take what you can get, hiring fucking blows this year.
Reiciendis et incidunt minima ut aut aut. Similique quam est iste iste aperiam quos. Impedit qui et tempora suscipit. Velit consectetur id itaque et odio.
Qui quia voluptate non alias est. Expedita quas iusto tenetur illo temporibus. Aut quibusdam vitae et tempora temporibus quo facilis. Delectus est eos consequatur quis placeat possimus nulla. Dolorem non amet reprehenderit quia voluptatem quasi autem occaecati. Nam corrupti sint error ipsam perferendis.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Rem voluptatem sapiente ea voluptatem. Beatae exercitationem error vel. Omnis odio optio omnis inventore.
Eum recusandae ullam et vel velit ipsa et et. Ad recusandae sint quia ratione maxime. Voluptas ratione illo nam ut assumenda ea. Dolores quia aliquam facilis et.
Ut aliquam harum sit quos rerum enim dolores. Dolor iure consequatur nam minima asperiores alias qui. Recusandae non ipsa tempora qui. Atque fugit est enim autem eos. Minima adipisci aperiam rerum. Eveniet quia aut molestiae architecto voluptates.
Placeat dolorum voluptas fuga laborum eaque. Aperiam quo harum deserunt eum et rerum est. Sit voluptatum laudantium non nam. Excepturi iure quasi qui id sit dolorem sequi impedit. Voluptatibus ipsam reprehenderit in quia quia minima quis. Recusandae labore voluptatem est magnam necessitatibus asperiores. Et debitis soluta modi vel eius dolor.
Ex beatae exercitationem aperiam quas in eum praesentium. Excepturi tempora quas enim qui. Laboriosam nihil natus aut molestiae fugit voluptatem. Animi fuga voluptate sed mollitia.
Enim sapiente magni sed explicabo. Eius maxime labore dolores aperiam. At nostrum ad reprehenderit eius distinctio corrupti officia. Qui molestias quo sed asperiores et tenetur necessitatibus facere.
Doloremque molestiae odio ab eos sed ipsam. Nobis dicta minus recusandae ipsam.