How do you guys function on low hours of sleep?
I was watching a few sleep podcasts recently and they were all talking about how important sleep is, however they also said the amount of sleep required for each person is quite varied and based on genetics. For example some people only require 5 hours for optimum productivity whereas some people require 9 hours. I've read Elon Musk saying he aims for 5-6 hours as past that he feels his productivity decreases. I feel like I'm one of the unlucky ones who needs minimum of 8 hours, for example if I'm waking up naturally I'll sleep at least 8 hours. I study a pretty intense degree and during the run up to deadlines where I was consistently getting 5 hours a night so I could do extra work, my quality of life decreased a lot and generally felt a lot less confident and more anxious and felt my productivity decrease.
How many hours do you guys in IB/Consulting sleep every night and how do you manage to survive this if you feel you don't get enough sleep? Do you feel it negatively affects your work in any way?
When I interned in IB, I did not have insane hours but most often I would leave the office at 12-1am. Never left earlier than 11 pm and had a few nights where I worked to 2-3am. With that said, I often got 6-7 hours of sleep while I usually sleep 8-9. I caught up on sleep during the weekends as there was less/no work. I never really felt tired at the job because I was so into whatever I was doing. I would sometimes feel like a corpse when waking up but once I hit the office I would become fully focused. Can highly recommend ZMA, has improved sleep quality a lot for me. However, I do wonder how the guys who regularly pull 3-4am nights manage to still be in the office by 9am and be highly productive.
this is one of the worst part of the jobs to is not only having to work on the weekends, but having to basically use your free time to recover on weekends from the long hours you pulled during the week.
Agreed. Also, I just have 0 energy on the weekends. So even though you theoretically have 2 full days where you can do whatever you want, you sleep for 10-12 hours and have no energy at all to actually do things.
How is leaving at 12-1am not insane hours?
it just becomes normal so the bar gets really low... lol just writing it out puts things into perspective
You're right, they are insane hours. However, they're not insane hours by banking standards. Insane hours by banking standards would be regularly working to 3-4am.
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Right, think my interest in the work is what will really keeps me awake. Like to keep my brain constantly active, so I don’t even think about the lack of sleep. I pull 90hrs and still feel great. Personally, feel worst if I’m in a slow period.
1 minute cold showers right when you get up will do wonders to alertness.
Zombie mode during internship (only a couple weeks) where I was visibly malfunctioning and losing brain processing power lol. Without a chill ass intern class to vibe with, I have no idea how one would get through it. Hopefully it’s slightly more sustainable when we aren’t chasing an offer and just a mid bucket bonus !!!
probably 4-5x worse as a FT
I can function on 4-5 hours if I have to. I think it’s a mix of genetics and also just training my body to be able to handle little sleep. In college there were times where I’d get 5 hours of sleep then go to my job, go to class, study, and then workout at night and feel relatively fine.
The caveat is that I don’t feel nearly as sharp, especially if I do it multiple days in a row. I aim to try to get at least 6 hours now.
1) the big secret is: the quality of work and output of sleep deprived junior analysts is simply terrible. No way around it
2) but it improves with a) getting more used to do the job (it’s not brain surgery), b) good work habits, c) getting used to be tired
There is a lot on b).
For example if passing through changes in a presentation, print the comments received (even by email) and tick each of them as you go through
Modelling is a bit similar: if you’re crunching and in the zone, you just now that things will need a fresh look in the morning. That’s also where asking associates and vps to check things is helpful. Flag the areas where you think there is the most risk
That part never goes away: i’m 10+ years experience, in corpdev, and on live deal I can power through things over night if needed, but also know that when it’s the case I tell my colleagues that someone needs to have another look at. It’s like Quality Assurance anyway. Print your work in the morning, etc. Excel models improve a lot with simple tricks too (color coding i puts, checking formula consistency, having dame years on same columns through the model, breaking up complex formulas across rows, avoiding things that are hard to audit like indirect…).
Other simple things:
The hardest is to pay attention on parts of theob where you are passive. Think DD meeting, management presentations… again a bit of set up helps, making sure you’re anchored (don’t founle task if you’re tired and need to take notes)
When you have a shit week you will end up catching up on sleep in the week end.
Awesome post, only thing I would add for OPs benefit is that he is not in the minority by not feeling rested if he gets <8 hours of sleep per night. I did IB / Consulting / Corp Dev and still havent gotten used to it. One thing that helps a lot is knowing when youre in a time crunch. If you are, your adrenaline / the stress kicks in, and helps you focus until the task is done. Even multiple years into my career, I still get this adrenaline kick on super mundane tasks (e.g., turning comments) when I know there is a lot of pressure to get the work done asap.
One thing that helps is to get into the healthiest sleeping routine you can. As someone who really struggles with sleep, I can tell you with a high degree of certainty things like nicotine / alcohol / weed will either make it harder to sleep (when you dont have them particularly), or will increase grogginess in the morning.
It gets easier as you spend more time acclimating to low sleep. I got <6 hours last night and while it sucks, I know Ill survive the day.
Best of luck OP
Honestly, you just get used to it. Your mind and body eventually adapt.
I'm a director and got like 15 hours of sleep for the whole week two weeks ago. No noticeable drop in performance until like Thursday. Some things are just like riding a bike.
Nicotine, smelling salts, coffee, cold water - whatever it takes.
Or, not my thing, drugs to stay sharp.
Remember, they don't care how, they care how many.
Is nicotine common on Wall Street?
From what I've seen, very. A majority of my office is either vaping or popping Zyns most of the day.
Definitely not healthy, but you do what you can do.
How common are drugs these days?
I think things like Adderall are fairly common. I don't really think you see people railing lines of coke.
I can't say with any real expertise though.
Addy lol
You need to put boundaries, past midnight stop replying to bullshit non urgent emails. People get used to your working style and if they can push beyond reason or not.
You can not recover sleep on the weekends, this is a myth. If you have a few nights where you’re sleep deprived, this is lost forever and your mental functions will be impaired.
If you finish at 4+am, feel free to wake up at 10-10:30am the next day tbh. If you’re really tired, try WFH and taking a nap too :)
Meditate 10mn before bed so you have good sleep. It can get pretty hard to fall asleep if you’ve been working and drinking cans of coke until 3am. Hell at some point I was so tired I couldn’t sleep.. lol... I was also shit at that time so it was a vicious circle which u want to avoid
wdym shit at the time
Power naps in the bathroom even for 5 minutes. Redbull.
Ditto on the bathroom nap. I don’t understand why they don’t have a sleep room because they know some folks are going to take naps….not because they’re nice guys but because they’d frankly get much higher quality work
When you have enough drive for what you do, you'll start pulling in those hours and operate on less sleep.
This is bullshit
Take naps. Even 5 mins will help. I used to sleep on a bench in a small park around the corner from my office. Even better, drink half a cup of coffee before the nap so by the time it kicks in you’re waking up.
No booze, it makes everything worse. If you must…don’t get fucked up. Or only do it when you know you have a day or two to fully recover.
Eat good food and generally try to be healthy. Stop making excuses….start today. Shut up and do it right now. Throw the shit out in your apartment, toss the candy, and eat some meat and greens. Let’s be honest….are you eating fried shit because you want to or because you were to lazy to grill yourself a steak? You’re an adult, buy real food. And learn to cook, there's a gazillion tiktok/youtube videos. I’m not talking low fat necessarily, I’m talking about get the SHIT out of your diet. Eat meat, fish, veggies, fruit. Replace cereal with whole rolled oats. Toss the white bread and buy real bread from the baked goods section or a bakery. Use butter, not margerine. DRINK WATER. Stop drinking soda and every sweet drink, you’re an adult now and that shit is keeping you in a constant pre-diabetic state that makes you feel drowsy because your body chemistry is off. Sweets / fried shit / etc are once in a while things, not every day. You need to snack? Get a bucket of mixed nuts and go crazy, they’re high in protein and healthy fats.
EDIT: Again to really beat this to death….ask yourself why you’re eating some shitty fries instead of a giant fucking awesome hunk of meat? So what if it costs a couple bucks more. You know you want it. Eat some awesome poached fish and broccoli. Have a pork chop and salad…toss the fucking potatoes. Here’s the deal: your whole life has been a lie. Carbs and junk food are cheap fillers but what you your body really wants is fiber and protein. Give the people what they want.
Give up gaming, they're nothing but a time suck. I hate that I’m even saying this because I absolutely love playing a game until I beat it but you could be sleeping, exercising etc
Slow low dose of stimulants is better than energy surges: SIP coffee, don’t pound it. Red Bull is not your friend unless it’s an emergency. These things deplete your body and you also build a tolerance over time, so keep the dosage low and you’ll get more of of them when it really matters.
Oddly, abstaining from sex from Sunday night to Wednesday increases mental clarity. Then go nuts Th-Fri-Sat. Fighters abstain or cut down before fights for the same reason.
Drink lots of water. Your body slows down some systems when dehydrated and it registers as fatigue. Keep a gallon jug on your desk and chug away. It also helps reduce appetite and you’ll lose some weight.
Multivitamins in the morning and at noon, especially b complex which will increase energy and focus. The benefits to your overall health add up over time. Don’t take them at night though, it will keep you up.
Exercise. If you do nothing else but walk around for 5 minutes while smoking a cigarette you’ll feel a difference, as opposed to standing in place. If you’re not taking a nap, do push-ups, walk up and down the emergency fire escape stairs, keep some weights under your desk if you have to. I turned the room next to my home office into a small gym, I’ll even take calls while doing curls or whatever…testosterone gives you focus.
Get your mental house in order. Get out of any bad relationships. Cut loose anyone who consistently pisses you off or dulls your shine. The single worst decision you can make in your life is to spend time around people who consistently rob your peace and happiness.
Drugs are a last resort. The less routinely you use them, the more effective they’re going to be for when you really need them. Save it for when you’re really desperate or for when you’re actually celebrating something 🤣🤣🤣
Remember: you are a biological organism with non-negotiable needs. In this digital age it’s easy to lose sight of that. Sleep is a biological necessity during which the brain removes metabolic waste and restores nutrients to itself. If you’re not going to take good care of that biological need….try to take care of as many others as you can so it offsets the overall stress on your being. You’ll work better and be less miserable. You'll also live longer.
Also: learn to manage your work and relationships so you can cut down on unnecessary late night bullshit. Probably 75% of shit coming in after 10PM is just someone bored or getting something off their desk. By the end of your first year you’ll know who is for real and what is bullshit. Especially if you don’t plan on staying long term, look for any way you can “manage expectations” and work efficiently.
Hope this helps
I'm not into drugs other than caffeine from my pre-workout. I don't even like marijuana, daily coffee, or energy drinks, but if you're into biohacking, looked for a real "limitless" pill, or watched The Industry, then you know what this is. This shit works. I take it occasionally, but I have a real prescription for it. I didn't order it online from some shady Indian pharmacy like a lot of people do because they think they're going to turn into Eddie Morra. I hate drugs so much that I don't even take this every day even though my doctor suggested it, but if I know I need to be up and perform, then I'll pop a pill, and it will get me through an extremely hard day. There will be diminishing returns the more you take it like coffee.
It will keep you up and allow you to perform, but it's a weird feeling because you will still get tired; however, your body won't crash. It's like insomnia in a pill. You will be mentally exhausted after long hours of work, but physically your body will just not shut down, you won't get sleepy like you would without it. It will allow you to work 24 hours and focus. You're going to feel it the next day, though. This type of output is not sustainable in the long run, and you will need to sleep.
I think it's a bit hyped up on the internet. It won't make you feel like you invented Facebook as they said in The Industry; it also won't make you smarter. And it sometimes sends me to the bathroom. Your pee will also smell for a day, similar to asparagus. However, it will keep you awake and working.
Like someone else said in this thread, nothing beats a good diet, exercise, hydration, and multivitamins without fillers. Get a blood test to identify any deficiencies, especially Vitamin D, because most bankers don't get much sunlight. Also, check your testosterone levels. It's really the simple shit that everyone knows, but they still think there's a better shortcut. Most people care more about maintaining their cars than they do their bodies. Keep getting consistent blood tests, and find out what your body needs. Every body is different, and a lot can happen to your body in six months to a year, so be on top of it.
Also, semen retention works too. You don't have to be a monk, but Mike Tyson knew what he was talking about. Don't jack off, lift heavy, and eat a good diet with foods like sardines, raw onions, whole eggs (I've heard duck eggs are the best, but I haven't tried it yet), oysters, etc. If you really can't give up sex, but want some of the benefits of retaining, then there are ways to have an orgasm without ejaculating. Multiple male orgasms are real; they involve kegels (next time you go to piss, try to stop midstream if you can't, then your PC muscle is weak so you need to work that muscle with kegels), timing, patience, and an understanding partner that's willing to work with you. A lot of women get upset if you don't ejaculate; it makes them feel inadequate and insecure, but it will allow you to keep going until you want to stop. It takes a lot of practice.
Also, if you start turning down your woman for sex, and having it on your time, then she can't control you with sex and will be ready to tear your clothes off when you're ready. Especially if you've been working out and increasing your testosterone. There's a balance, though, because if you turn her down too much, she'll become too frustrated, think you're cheating, and just get another dick. Women are really insecure, and it doesn't take much to get their imaginations running off on them.
And Arnold Schwarzenneger was right about the pump feeling like an orgasm.
You don't have to be a bodybuilder to get the benefit. Do some pushups or burpees if your space allows and you're feeling a little stressed. It will give you a pump, a quick boost of energy, and get your blood flowing. Try to get your steps in as well and stretch. I also keep a pull-up bar in my house to knock a few out too.
I am equally unlucky when it comes to sleep.
I need at least 7 hours to function well and think clearly.
On top of that, I have the misfortune of wanting to achieve as much as possible in life. I sign up for various activities, take on many responsibilities, only to ultimately not succeed in all of them. And as much as I would like to sacrifice some sleep, I can't because the next day I'll be of no use.
So yes, I had to come to terms with the fact that at least 7-8 hours out of the 24 must be dedicated to sleep.
Even more so, realizing that sleep is the primary fuel for my productivity, I've made some effort to make my sleep as efficient as possible because sleep is not just about quantity but also quality.
I had a good mattress, quite comfortable, so I just changed my pillow. For some, it may seem like the most insignificant object in the bedroom, but a good pillow really changes the effect of sleep. I had heard many good reviews about the Pluto pillow, so I decided to give it a try, especially since they offer a trial period.
And damn, that pillow is good. It's as if the brain is resting on it, not just the head.
In addition to that, I bought a humidifier because the air in the bedroom was usually dry, and also a thermostat to maintain the optimal temperature in the bedroom, as it's around 17-18 degrees Celsius.
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