Push Back Against Boomer Management / Being Powerless
The current trajectory of Wall St. is alarming. Seeing analysts / junior associates / interns become increasingly powerless / getting taken advantage of (i.e., upper management trying to push back to “old school” culture, management abusing power, laying off recent college grads, intimidation, etc.) gives me flashbacks to being an IB analyst which was in many ways fun — but also one of the most toxic / ridiculous / appalling environments I have experienced.
It seems that these boomers / upper management think they can do whatever they want now that markets have dipped, and go back to a shittier, more toxic culture.
Fuck that.
We’re not going back to that. I have younger siblings / mentees going through this. And it makes my blood boil.
I’m calling on you younger guys / girls / them to say no to all this bullshit. After all - management has to listen to you because without you workers, management is nothing.
The only reason why workers have increasingly gained rights throughout history is because they pushed back. So it’s really up to you to make it happen. Defy unreasonable working conditions in any way possible.
Make no mistake - you need to work hard. And you need to push yourself. But no need to work in an incredibly inefficient / toxic culture.
At the end of the day, it’s really up to you to force change.
Your choice…
Well do me a favor and have your third parties chill tf out on DD and we might get out a few hours earlier!
Lets compromise and keep the 90s culture while bringing back office blow/strippers.
it's so funny how current boomers expect "the old days," yet all of the 'benefits' - in terms of the work hard play hard (hookers, cocaine, free language) - have faded overtime... like we have to deal with the BS corporate jargon and buzzwords yet we don't get the benefits of working hard.
Spot on.
Could be the worst banking culture of all time. Pulling consistent 2ams only to be forced to wake up early for a mandatory diversity and inclusion seminar the next morning.
This guy blows
IMO this is the biggest reason why young recruits bounce so easily and why my generation tends to have no loyalty towards the firm - I never understood how some of you can admire financial institutions... I am only loyal to those few people who decided to give me an opportunity.
Working with management sometimes feels like those congress hearings where congressmen ask Mark Zuckerberg about how wifi works, they seem oblivious to the need to adapt to a changing world.
Also, management talks about how difficult it is to recruit and retain "talent" without realizing that most of the time is because talented people with enough $$ earned does not like to keep up with management's BS which makes work more inefficient. You can't trap juniors with stock comp that is locked until 2025 and I am definitely not sleeping less than the doctors' recommended amount for next quarterly earnings or the shareholders.
As an analyst at a bank where management loved talking about culture, which seemed to fool a lot of people, and pushes for a 5 day in-office presence, this touched home. However, I will likely stay here due to my profound desire for money.
Facts, boomers have completely different value systems than our generation. Theirs is based on old school honour and paying your dues mentality which was instilled into them because they were told it and everyone else believed it as well. In our generation who grew up with the internet, we aren't retarded enough to not realise that firms literally do not give a fuck about you and that once you have enough cash saved and invested, you can bounce and don't have to put up with their boomer mentality bs anymore.
Their generation grew up with the mindset of the only way to make it is to follow the path in front of you and reach the top of the ladder. Ours knows that isn't the case.
The internet is only half of the reason that we abandoned that mindset. The other half?
People turning 30 and 40 now are poorer than their parents were at 30 or 40. Social and economic mobility has declined; “work hard and you’ll get rich” simply isn’t as true anymore as it once was. Gone are the days of almost certain promotion and the “golden age” of finance. Young people today work as hard as ever, get less for it, and are slandered for laziness.
Why would we have respect for a “system” that has been weaponized by previous generations against us?
What's wrong with 5 day in-office presence? That is a normal work week...
Sending FAXes was the norm before, but now it isn't because it is less efficient
“However, I will likely stay due to my profound desire for money”
This is precisely it. Do we wish that the culture would improve? Of course. Are we willing to sacrifice our personal livelihoods over it? Absolutely not.
We — the first-year analysts — have the most to lose by speaking out, and also the smallest influence over culture. However, by the time we become VPs and MDs, many of us will probably adopt the “we were abused, and so we don’t see anything wrong with doing the same to the next generation” mindset. And so, the cycle continues…
s
I actually left my PE with nothing lined up due to poor work environment. No regrets, still thinking about the next step.
I followed your advice and was promptly told by the Managing Partner to "gtfo" and "Wendy's is hiring". OP is your fund looking for a new associate??
Actually Wendy’s is switching to AI. So not really hiring.
This is very 2021. Kind of cute, really.
Man, you cannot believe how much I would pay to see in the news "Goldman's analysts set to unionize"
Don’t you have some kids to neglect and divorce papers to read?
Think this goes for most industries world-wide. The sooner they die the better, they’re mostly bloodsucking leeches
Op issue isn't boomers. Issue is all the maniac hardos at semi targets and non targets. Since banks are now looking at non target schools and due to sites like WSO and finmeme accounts there are hundred of thousands of non target strivers willing to cut off an arm to secure a spot in IB. Many are from middle class backgrounds or are immigrants who don't know any better and come from cultures where it's the ultimate move in life to flex "total comp" to one another.
Send some poorly formatted coffee chat cold emails and memorize the vault question guide and there's a chance to shoot yourself up to the top caste instantly.
Zero percent chance these kids push back. Hell, many of then actively are willing to sabotage peers.
I've never seen so many awkward, non target hardos in banking than right now. Good luck when they become future MDs!
So this is how posh people view me huh?
I was just about to say man lmao
Man, like the general level of awkwardness and social incompetence is astounding. Like I get the COVID generation didn't get the classroom and social experience in school but like bruh, it's really not hard to hold a conversation. It's like brains explode if anything outside the million odd interview guides is asked.
rabbit
That's the beauty of capitalism. People having the opportunity to move up the food chain is what makes this country so great.
It's not that I have an issue with middle class people moving up the chain. It's that the current crop of ib analysts is so singularly focused on doing so that they do not push back, have no interest in helping peers, and are obsessed...to a neurotic level with exits and total comp(more than the usual wallstreet culture). Hence they are prime candidates to take advantage of.
glad you brought up that, because somewhat I agree with it: Pushing back on management BS requests will not revolutionize the culture, instead, it will make you be replaced with a hardo (as you pointed out: non-target/immigrant/middle or poor class, etc.). But this also means that those hardos will be the next management, so if you're coming from an Ivy League, then look somewhere else; I like this outlook because it means that all the people that want big bucks and do shit for it can leave the floor for those that want to kill themselves for $$$. Non-targets hardos > lazy fuckers. If there are people that are ready to endure this culture/lifestyle, why tf should we accommodate it when we could simply replace them (and not now, but in future applications prioritize certain profiles).
Replace “non-target hardo” with “immigrant” and “lazy f——-“ with “American (or European) working class,” and you’ll see how closely this maps onto actual American (and European) politics.
Let the increased number of people from non-targets and more middle/working class backgrounds sacrificing more than ever to break into banking be a sign of how much of a privilege our jobs are. Yes, we work hard, and yes, we suffer some abuse, but it’s true, with a little bit of luck, we’ll likely enjoy an economic security that 99% of people lack. We’re not doing this for nothing.
People who grew up used to worse than I did are willing to endure more abuse to gain these privileges. This makes sense — their relative upside is much higher. As a consequence of being willing to endure such abuse, they’ll cross the metaphorical “picket lines,” accepting worse conditions and possibly lower pay. MDs will love this. It’s an analogous phenomenon to when a country opens its borders and accepts immigrants who will work for a lower wage, because they’re used to worse.
Will this backfire and create more classism in recruitment and networking as a means of enforcing cultural solidarity and pushing back against management? Will an atomized analyst class lose all sense of collective interest and allow for conditions to get even worse? Or, is this all an imagined worry?
We’ll see.
and their tolerance for pain/suffering is also higher, let's not ignore that.
That's why I'm quite suspicious about people that whine how hard/demanding IB. I assume they got it fairly well/easy in life, because if you come from a poorer background you assume that hard work = more pay. The fact that you're getting paid more = the harder the work it is, so you really see no cons, you take it as a sine qua non.
This is so cringe. You’re the problem..
Definitely just an elitist/racist who’s upset there is finally some meritocracy in finance.
“the plebs are breaking in!!!” “Oh no, middle class people who didn’t go to to my alma matter!!”
workers of the world, unite!
Ooo la la, someone's gonna get laid in college
There's an obvious collective action problem here and far more candidates than positions. Banks can easily replace/ding problem juniors. even if some juniors try to unionize or something, they'd just take themselves out of contention for scarce positions. so there'd be an even bigger incentive for candidates to defect. after all, you have no way to monitor or discipline juniors for going along with management.
i'd also be careful with this sentiment in the post-AI era. I just watched a chatgpt plug-in make a flawless LBO model based on a handful of verbal directions. this blew my mind. At least half my first year analysts couldn't do that shit.
i grant you that banking is poorly run and juniors can be mistreated. This blows and I hate it. But you won't change it this way. Analysts are better off doing a good job and learning to navigate the politics of their offices. clever junior bankers can improve their lives a ton if they know what they're doing.
Could you please share the name of the plug in?
https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:708503551736010752…
Lol guys we have no leverage right now. Due to low deal volume, there’s limited demand for junior IB seats and a seemingly endless supply of new grads / people trying to lateral into banking willing to fill any role. It’s a nice speech by OP but it doesn’t acknowledge reality. You’re all familiar with the phrase “strike while the iron is hot” well unfortunately winter is coming…
Analysts have been complaining about their senior bankers since there were analysts and there’s always some person (normally a Frenchman) trying to “unionize”
This same rant could have been written by one of my drunken friends when we were analysts.
You make it sound like you work at the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory.
Traingle Shirtwaist Capital has an absolutely BRUTAL culture but exits are god tier
I think you missed the fact that not having any exits is precisely why everyone in the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory was burned alive.
Most of you are very lukewarm IQ wise and only paid what you are paid because it’s a grindy job that doesn’t take much brain power.
I am stupid too but not naive lol. None of us on this forum are some irreplaceable demigod of mathematics.
Fully fully agree and applaud your very polite way of saying "morons" :)
lol OP thinks hes Captain America with this bullshit
if youve really worked in banking for as long as you claim you would know that the scale of power heavily favours the seniors. You go ahead and push back and see what happens. Theres many other kids that can just take your place, the job does not require a rocket scientist
Yeah the number of scabs on WSO alone will kill any "management is nothing without us" movements.
In general, I agree with the sentiment here with a couple caveats. One, you need to synthesize the full context of your workflow in order to push back properly, which means understanding the needs of the deal, client, and your co-workers. Part of this understanding is unique to each deal and can be gained by asking questions and being looped in. The other piece is gained by experience. A lot of work that I thought was unnecessary in my younger years I now know is important, especially as it concerns presentations. Deck building and editing is loathed and largely under appreciated by students and young professionals alike.
Relatedly, you should come with an open mind and eagerness to learn. There was a post recently by a very technical intern who didn’t think he had much to learn. That is absolutely insane. I’m going to say something that might be surprising: relative to the strength of your seniors, the strategy and soundness of the auction process, and effectiveness of marketing materials, a banking model is the least important part of any deal. You can be a wizard at Excel coming into the job but you are not going meaningfully informed about any of the other aspects of the job without real world experience.
IBankers all coming for each other's necks now that deal flow has dried up lmao yall thought you were gods in '21. The amount of kids from gay midwestern banks bragging about "muh bonus" was crazy. Go get some equity fam. Otherwise you're just a worker and can and will be treated like shit. Now I own my own shit, nobody can take that from me.
I mean the repo man can if you have debt and flop. Everybody has a boss. Even if they’re called customers
Kid gets like .01% equity in a fund and adopts this stance. Yeah you really own that shit.
How much equity do you have in closed transaction fees? Okay then. Back to the desk with you boy, my IT consultant needs you to send over 200+ policy documents by 2:00PM and if you don't get it to us we'll walk and your MD will skin you and make jerky out of your body.
Aye. And which of those complaining would trade places with a police officer on the streets of Harlem, or a nurse on an NHS ward, or an air stewardess being yelled at for running out of the chicken dish, or a junior doctor finishing an 18-hour shift?
Sometimes, I remind myself of this when I'm stressed and feeling like this industry isn't worth it. It's no wonder the media and public think we're a joke and out of touch.
Each year there are similar threads about how this analyst intake are going to change things, makes me laugh. You'll be exactly like the boomers when you're old and crusty too.
“Workers”
The audacity to compare moving shapes around in PowerPoint for six figures in your 20s to back breaking manual labor for an hourly wage.
The audacity you have to invalidate the bullshit that juniors put up with from management being incompetent...I’m sorry you feel threatened lol
I was a junior. Are you serious? "Invalidating" your manufactured stress? If you don't like this job, go get another job that pays much less. What do you think you get paid for? Your skills? World view? No. You get paid as much as you do to put up with long hours.
Also, I'm not some senior banker. Why would I feel threatened?
What does it mean to "invalidate" something? I have the power to send you into an existential panic by saying you sound soft? That's hilarious, Mr. Softee. Yes, I called you "Mister," Mister.
Please respond using lots of Gen Z euphemisms for my amusement. TYIA
Look all I'm saying - have you ever had to sit in a non-ergonomic office chair for 16 hours a day? Not back breaking per say, but you're gonna leave with some stiffness at minimum.
Yeah. It sucks. But you’re not exactly getting black lung. You’re getting too fat from your meal stipend.
In 2021 when the markets were hot employees had a lot of power and it caused massive bumps in comp across the market, which was required in order to retain and attract talent. Unfortunately, now the markets have depressed leaving bankers with less options to leave their current roles if they are unhappy, putting the power back into the hands of management.
If employees are unhappy with management at their firm the only way to enact change is to be willing to quit or lose your job by not "complying", and if they start to lose enough people they'll pull back on whatever dumb decisions they are making. Management at my firm has been hinting that they want me in a different office and eventually they will probably give me an ultimatum of move or you're fired, and I am willing to get fired. Most people aren't willing to go to that extreme.
Thy overseer in the guild of banking may strive to ill-use thee, yet remain thou stalwart and unyielding
Well what do you expect? Finance jobs pay more than 99% of other careers and all you need is an easy 4-year degree, a triple digit IQ, and the willingness to work really, really hard.
Through social media and online resources, the pathway into Finance has been democratized to an insane degree.
At the same time, we are on the precipice of an economic depression, and AI threatens tons of jobs, including most within the industry. There are literally hundreds of AI startups founded within the last year alone that are seeking to "leverage machine learning to replace X job" or whatever their bullshit shtick is. They've collectively raised billions in funding, so some of them will naturally succeed.
Are you at all surprised that junior folks are unwilling to take a principled stand against their boomer bosses? They are struggling to remain employed today, and especially tomorrow. I'm an engineer and my life is pretty comfy, working for a government job that I can't be fired from unless I commit a felony. I don't envy young analysts and associates who are fighting for their lives out there, possessing few skills that aren't easily replaceable by AI in the near future.
I'm sorry but this situation isn't in their favor. They have no leverage. As resources grow scarce and competition increases, they will naturally turn to hostile and cutthroat behavior against their peers. That's how it is for anything.
Enjoy the ride, it won't be pretty.
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