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Thought RBC was more of a lower BB? -> not sure if that effects their exit ops compared to the others. I have heard that Blair and Barid have good exits and RJ could be alot tougher to exit from. Just what I have heard antidotally.
would say lower bank exits usually are to higher banks from my experience
You mean laterals right?
If someone wants to explain the MS to me that would be great.
Morgan Stanley is an investment bank
Not sure. Maybe some people view rbc is more of a Wells tier where they are a balance sheet bank with a more well built out m&a and coverage presence compared to that of something like a bmo/nomura. So not necessarily a BB but just the upper tier of BS bank. Idk why it deserved MS tho these are all subjective and made up tiers to act as heuristics
Hw is not a lower mm. Exits are as good as the rest of the “top” mm
Yeah I think OP has some misleading data about where certain groups stand.
Definitely possible. Don’t know a ton about MM exits and that’s why I asked
RJ has good exits out of their tech group v solid into mm pe, not too sure of the other groups but fairly certain tech and services is their best for pe.
Lincoln placed an analyst into audax past year and has solid placement into Chicago lmm/mm pe.
Hw is a top mm not lower, and places on par with the rest of the “top mm” banks. Arguably the most consistent pe placement of all the banks mentioned due to the outplacement program and culture on recruiting there.
Haven’t really seen many cowen analysts in pe. Saw one or two at lower mm shops in tertiary cities but that’s about it.
Just my thoughts and based on working in the space, conversations with friends at these shops, and looking through pe team profiles
Very helpful, thanks you!
Cowen may have a harder time because for a long time they seemed to be very ECM heavy.
Still are. M&A processes are poorly constructed compared to the rest of the MM. They do some public company type deals and then lower MM stuff. Big gap between them and Tier 1.
Does anyone know if Oppenheimer would be considered a "lower MM" or a "top MM", as well how the firm is viewed across the street?
Middle of the pack with sometime considered higher end
Personally never seen it grouped with the upper tier mm.
Would prob consider some of their groups on the top MM group
Which of their groups would be conisdered top MM?
Opp HC is competing with the top tier MM firms. Never saw the rest of the groups doing as much MM M&A
How about Wells Fargo
While rankings are dumb, here is my take:
Top: Add Jefferies, move up HW, RBC is not MM so I guess its above, Piper Sandler, and I would add Macquarie just cause they do good work.
Lower: Add Stifel, other BS banks like Nomura and Mizuho
Jefferies (and RBC / WF) don't really belong in this discussion. They're in a weird null-zone between EBs/bulges and MM banks. They do a ton of large capital markets transactions, have somewhat larger average M&A deal sizes, and will randomly get some larger M&A mandates.
When I think true MM I think churning out $75mm - $250MM sellsides constantly, which is what WB/Piper/Bair etc. do
Average deal size at Baird/Blair is closer to $400-$500MM. The range you referenced is more indicative of the "lower mm" banks, like Lincoln, Stifel, etc.
Would definitely consider RBC to be lower end to just regular BB. (Seeing as CS is considered fringe, I’d put RBC over the top) Correct me if I’m wrong though
CS is substantially better than RBC dude
You think WF is the same caliber as Jefferies or RBC? What crack are you smoking
I thought I said the same thing and got MS ... oh well
Any insights into exits from non-tech groups at RJ? Know they have been growing the industrials practice a ton lately and have been doing some decent deals, but not sure if this is translating to strong exits?
Would BMO Capital Markets be classified as a top MM or low BB?
Bmo is again one of those weird ones like wf and rbc, but I’d put it somewhere between rbc and something like a Nomura/mizuho in terms of strength. This is purely M&A wise, as I don’t work on the capital markets side.
I would say neither, they are more of a MM, but not on the same level as Blair / Baird.
BMO being on a higher or lower level than Blair/Baird?
Holy shit the term is BALANCE SHEET BANK
Lol for some reason i blanked thanks man
My understanding is that BMO is largely MM, but looks to compete with BB firms in Lev Fin space
competes or Co underwrites?
I work at BMO. Most of our sellsides are also on the $500mm - $1bn range, we just operate in pretty niche industries. M&A deal flow is probably less than a Blair or Baird but think we generally do larger transactions than they do.
In the U.S. they are a tier 2 type MM firm that is really struggling. They are turning into WF and having to rely upon financing to get them M&A mandates and doing a lot more buy side work like Stifel.
Neither bmo is more lmm if anything unless you’re talking about Canada/metals
Where would Stifel be?
Lower MM
Lower to middle depending on group
Would definitely put WB in the top group, also Jef as arguably the #1 MM
I would classify top MM as ones that consistently hit 400m and top deals 800m+ or into the billions here and there.
Lower MM as ones that have top deal size below 300m. Middle tier sitting in between, many of the 'lower' banks you mention would be mid-tier by this standard.
Yeah by that logic I don't think any MM bank comes close. JEF has an avg. M&A deal size of more than $800mil.
You're right, I meant more along the lines of their *top* deals come in at that amount. I.e. Jeff/WB/Houlihan have top deals in high 100ms or in the Bs. If your top deal doesn't break 200-300m I think that puts you at lower MM.
Interned at a MM before switching somewhere else for full-time. Obviously it varies by groups and other individual factors but broadly I'd group mm (including mm space balance sheet) bank exits like this
- top: HL, Jefferies - MM and UMM PE are well in reach and MF possible for best groups (hl rx, jeff healthcare). Generally, these two line up with places like UBS/DB/Rothschild/Gugg etc for exits
- RBC
- mid/top: Baird, HW, WB - great banks, probably the best culture and good exits into MM PE
- mid/lower: RJ, Piper, BMO/Nomura/Mizuho - LMM/MM PE exits and one-off great placements for some really strong groups (rj tech) but exits gets harder at this level compared to above banks
- lower: Stifel, Oppenheimer, Lincoln, Truist - LMM and some MM PE exits but again just gets tough compared to top mm
By no means would I pick an offer just based on exit rankings though, if you're a top analyst wherever you'll get love and if you're bad at wherever you won't
.
Would probably switch Lincoln and mizuho. Lincoln has definitely been getting better and mizuho does no m&a/has virtually no pe exits. Not too familiar on Nomura but have heard second hand it’s similar to mizuho.
Also HL has too much variation and would split it up as HL RX which is a top RX platform and HL m&a which is more in line with WB, Baird, HW
Agree with the poster above. Lincoln should certainly be grouped in with the mid/lower group and Mizuho down a level.
Agree with the comment on Lincoln. Much rather be at Lincoln cranking out $250M sellsides than somewhere like Truist/Nomura/BMO where the M&A dealflow is extremely choppy or nonexistent and you’re mainly working on lending and capital markets stuff
To be clear, I'd rather be at Truist or BMO where at least you have a chance to do M&A at some point. I have never come across Nomura, Mizuho or any of the other Asian banks, pretending to have M&A advisory in the U.S.
These rankings are crazy hahah
Crazy inaccurate or just dumb idea to rank?
Think RBC is it's own tier at this point, maybe alongside UBS where they are a large bank that does a lot of capital markets work, have average M&A deal sizes in line with the top MM but also now on then get on deals that are BB size.
This seems to be the general consensus. I think exits are probably just based on how you network and prepare for interviews. I would also be curious to hear how B schools look at candidates from a UBS/Wells/RBC vs a HL/Baird/WB
Curious to see where Stephens stand? Specifically with the NY office. Also any info on DC Advisory? Is it more of a boutique or MM?
dc advisory id put as being similar to lincoln given the cross border volume and middle market focus, but probably below lincoln in terms of exits. Can't opine much on stephens ny, iirc its a consumer team there that does a lot of pitching but good personalities/culture
Curious on Stephens as well. I would think maybe average deal size is a little bit smaller at Stephens compared to somewhere like Lincoln but don’t have anything to back that up just my intuition
Definitely smaller than Lincoln, which has been moving up market nicely. Stephens seems to be squarely in that $50-$150mm EV range. They'll do some larger and probably a few smaller deals.
Stephens def. below Lincoln and probably equal to Cowen or Stifel. They are a punching bag during bake offs.
A lot of ppl consider HL to be elite bc of its prestige
Only their RX team. For M&A their closest comps are Blair and Baird
I have also heard the M&A is very elite and ppl put it with EB banks. If u guys get an offer there take it!
How does rothschild compare against these
Caveat that this is only for global advisory. Rothschild rx is much “better” for exits/prestige than their coverage groups.
I would say Rothschild is more like jefferies than the others. Avg deal size is roughly 800m whereas Blair/baird/hw are around ~400m. I’d say that exits in pe are slightly better, but there’s also the geographical advantage of the New York office compared to blair/baird/hw. Think they’re close enough that you would pick based on culture/geography than just brand name alone. Similar to jefferies
Rothschild from what I have heard is the same some of the other mm banks like HW, Truist, Baird (mid tier)
I would also say
top: Blair, HL, Jeff
Lower: Lincoln, RJ, hw,
Ton of misinformation on this forum. RBC isn't really a MM firm because they don't do high volume sponsor sell-sides. Not going to debate whether they're a BB but clearly unlike any of the other shops you listed here. Jefferies does more MM sell sides but wouldn't say it's their bread and butter. HL does do high volume MM sell sides
Top: HL, William Blair (may be the best shop in Chicago), Harris Williams, Baird in that order
Lower: Lincoln, RJ, Cowen >>> Stifel
Would you say RBC is then like a "fringe BB" what're some good comparables in your opinion? Just wondering, thanks.
Where would Piper Sandler fit in the MM
I think their medtech team in minneapolis and their consumer team in san fransisco are right there with the top mm banks. The rest of their groups would probably be somewhere between lincoln and Baird
Not sure why you are getting shit on, this is actually pretty accurate. Piper has some really strong verticals (Medtech, HCIT, Consumer, FIG - Sandler) and the rest are very respectable, but not as strong as top MMs typically. Doesn't mean Piper can't win a mandate in an area that it has good creds/quals, but it isn't quite as strong top to bottom as Blair, for example.
Where would SVB Leerink fit in HC space MM
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