Anyone else skeptical of therapy?
I subscribe to the belief that most things in life, nature, social trends, what have you- are spread like a standard bell curve.
Most things are in the middle, most are average, and the extremes are actually rare, on both ends. Which also means that there are many grey areas and murky answers.
Point is: Yes, there are certainly cases where patients NEED to be on medication to function. But those are rare. Most patients need treatments that are unfortunately trickier, take more time and effort on the patients’ AND providers’ parts.
However, Pharmaceutical corps are INSANELY big. If you account for all the companies under one umbrella, then the chemical companies producing the required ingredients, the research labs, lobbyists, lawyers, marketing, the natural resources required for said chemical plants and the factories obtaining them, the local security in whatever foreign land where it’s harvested, those local politicians, the international diplomats and lawyers, etc, etc. And then do this for the several giant umbrellas…Big Pharma is one of the only industries that rivals the Military Industrial Complex.
Is it any wonder that at this point, not only do they get away with it, they MAKE the agenda in the first place, and have normalized it by now.
We went from: “wait, what is xanax and ritalin/adderal, what are the short term effects? WHAT ARE THE LONG TERM EFFECTS, if you JUST released it? And why are they immediately in the top 5 medications prescribed (to children) in California? To: Mental health is hella important, and everyone from basic 15yr old girl on tiktok to the vast majority of health care providers, have all normalized the regimented intake of brain altering pills that are akin to world record molly addictions on the receptors.
Funny enough, these same Pharmas that just 10 years ago we all hated, and all knew of at least some of their atrocities, obviously having a terrible view of them, have now created such dissonance in the average mind that we no longer attribute these prescriptions and their effects to them. Big Pharma’s bad, but this is just my Seroquel, why are you bringing this up?
Oh and finally, the fun little game, where we all know Pharmas will release a pill you need, but with severe side effects, if it means they can save 1/100th of a cent. And yet we can’t and don’t question whether these same soulless conglomerates may be ALSO do the same to injectable liquids. Pill or shot, why wouldn't they make an extra billion? It’s literally the Boards’ only obligation. And yet, a FREE flu shot, pushed every year in mass marketing is out of the goodness of their heart? They must really want us healthy. The guys keeping cancer cures buried to sell cancer meds instead.
So do you want to talk about therapy or anxiety / depression medication? They are not the same thing, and if you don't understand that that tells me you haven't been to therapy and therefore probably shouldn't have an opinion on this.
I had OCD, depression, and anxiety and I’ve been to probably 7 or 8 therapists in my life and tried 10+ SSRIs and SNRIs (all but one of these prescriptions were when I was underage as well). None of it ever helped and it was all extremely expensive. When I have obsessive thoughts now I just tell myself to stop thinking about it. It’s a skill that has taken years to build and is easier said than done but it’s been way more effective than having to explain all the bad shit that has happened to me to a stranger or being forced to take pills.
Even now, stressful job, sleepless nights, cortisol taste in the mouth all day long. One day I told my gf “i don’t do stress any more”. She thought it was funny. Well, it was actually burn out but I really actually don’t do stress any more. It’s a bit like learning to be a psychopath (in a good way).
Based Patrick Bateman posting
Have you read Feeling Good?
On the other front, you should read about the use of coke in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia’s use of psychiatry.
From a European perspective I always find Americans talking about therapy absolutely cringe. Like seriously you bunch of pussies, social relationships and familial bonds are so shitty in your country that you can't even talk to a friend or a family member about your problems and you would rather prefer to get ripped off by a serial scammer whose analysis is even less insightful than fucking astrology posts on Instagram?
Getting MSed for telling the truth. Most americans are giant babies who want a magic pill to make their problems go away.
This is one of the most toxic comments I have ever seen on this website. @AndyLouis you guys should ban idiots like this.
Level of immaturity and pathetic judgment is off the charts. Anyone who jokes about mental health is such a loser, I cannot even describe it.
Because of stuff like this people are hesitant to ask for professional help. To anyone struggling heavily with their mental health and reading these cancer posts - do not listen to internet warriors and go seek medical help. You have every right to get support you deserve.
+1
You're both right imo
From a working professional perspective, I always find Unverified Interns giving everyone on this site "life advice" absolutely cringe.
Like seriously you bunch of pussies, your lack of confidence to stand up for what you believe in on your own is so shitty that you can't even bother to make an actual account (let alone verify it), and you would rather spout stuff on a job forum that you probably got from listening to Tai Lopez behind the facade of "Intern"?
So which is it, they're just pussies or their social relationships are total dogshit? The destruction of the social fabric is very real, and it's detrimental to the mental health of the country. IMO that's why people are increasingly depressed/anxious. I know for myself that I fucking hate life when I realize I have very few social connections.
This is only going to get worse for the next generation because they're going to be even MORE dependent on their devices. Add to that the huge number that will remain in online schooling because their parents find it more convenient, and antidepressants are going to be taken like they're multivitamins.
I have conflicting emotions on this
on the one hand, I know people (mostly soldiers and former addicts) who have gotten a lot of benefit from therapy. it's likely that their friend group (the productive friends) don't have experience with those issues so hashing it out may not be as good as therapy
on the other hand, the ancients didn't really have therapy, you worked through your issues with trusted confidants like friends and family. plus after hearing docs like kelly brogan talk about SSRIs combined with my normal skepticism of current medical practices make me hesitate to say those are a net good to society
finally, look up "extremistan and mediocristan" because many important things in life do NOT fall in a gaussian distribution. also that meme is horrible. anyone who has that much plastic surgery done to them at such a young age (that wasn't in a car accident or combat) has mental issues that they should address with something other than the knife
The ancients didn’t have therapy and they also did not have diagnoses.
Dan Siegel, MD says “if you name it you can tame it.” Which is a phrase that describes dealing with psychiatric disorders, mainly out of the DSM V, the current book of disorders.
But, just because in ancient times they weren’t able to name disorders and tame them, that does not make modern times better than ancient times.
The crazed mind is capable of much and surely some artists and even crazed leaders and warriors could have had undiagnosed psychiatric disorders. They could have had a part in shaping civilization to what it is today.
Currently, we view disorders as things that need to be corrected. Psychiatry seeks to align disorders so that a person can live a normal life. But, what is a normal life? Are we sacrificing creativity to be bland? There are some philosophical questions regarding the aim of psychiatry. There are also some hard truths such as dealing with paranoid schizophrenia - one shouldn’t hear voices and medication and therapy can help greatly.
However, why do we have so much anxiety in modern times? I think the amount of stimuli present greatly adds to anxiety for the modern person. The renaissance man didn’t have to think about all these things. I think anxiety was less in ancient times.
Check out psychiatry in Soviet Russia…
The "ancients" also didn't have modern medicine, or cars, or pencils.
I do think America has an over-medication problem, but therapy by itself isn't a bad thing.
exactly why I'm conflicted. Tradition is smarter than us in many things, but not everything. Like most things, there's no right or wrong, but I'm still conflicted, because "therapy" could be a 15 minute visit followed by a 60 day regimen of SSRIs or it could be what I've seen help veteran friends...
I think that the underlying issue is that most people conflate therapy with psychiatry. Psychiatrists can write prescriptions while Psy.Ds, PhDs, and LSCWs cannot. The thing with Psychological Therapy, and to your point of hashing it out, the idea is that therapy serves as a safe space to hash things out with someone who is there to help you. There are things that you can't always hash out among your confidants, or that may involve those same people. As a result, either you numb the pain, or you work with someone to figure out the underlying problems and find ways to engage healthy coping mechanisms or work to move beyond them. Psychiatric therapy is a different issue outright. There are disorders that we can't put into "This needs to be hashed out". If you think of the human body as a machine, the idea of Psychiatric therapy is to introduce ways to help make the body more effective and overcome hardcoded problems. Whether you like the choice of wording or not, we are creatures whose genetic code defines all of our issues. This isn't to say trauma cannot further shape our lives and our mental health (ex. PTSD) For example, and not to discuss Isaiah_53_5 💎🙌💎🙌💎 (Sorry buddy, it's just easy considering you already mentioned what you're treating for), but it's a pretty easy example. How much of it is treating in order to be able to function on a daily basis? I would argue that it's less about changing who we are and more about getting us to be able to function on a daily basis. While I understand Isaiah's point about the creative aspects and how much of that is driven by mental illness, I think the ultimate issue is achieving a livable life. There is no such thing as a "normal life", but there is something to be said about managing our issues to be the best person we can be.
I'm down to discuss in private if you're interested and really delve into my thoughts on the matter. It may be anecdotal, but I'm glad to share if you're interested.
I think you see the difference in peoples' results largely based on two things 1. whether they "click" with their therapist and 2. whether therapy or psych drugs are the right tools for the job. I have experience with Adderall, as well as just working with a therapist for some gnarly ADHD/Sensory disorders as a kid. The Adderall did not help me, but behavioral therapy did and I haven't needed anything else from that therapist in 13+ years. On the other hand, people I know have had the opposite experience. I think success with professional help comes down to identifying what works. Trying to screw in a nail or hammer in a screw are exercises in futility. Unfortunately with mental health, it can be tough sometimes to tell a screw from a nail.
I was skeptical about therapy until 2011 when I met my current psychiatrist and skeptical about meds until 2013 when it became clear that I should be on them.
I don’t experience any side effects with any of my meds.
I’ve seen a lot of wacko and shit therapists before meeting my current psychiatrist who just gets me. I tell him everything. We see each other 2x year for an hour and recap life, meds, and dosages.
You should check out Peace of Soul by Fulton Sheen. I have a feeling you would find it very interesting.
Ok yeah I like Fulton Sheen. I just ordered the book. Thanks for the recommendation.
What condition do you have and what meds are you on?
Severe manic depression and anxiety. Lithium, Olanzapine, Xanax, Xanax XR, Ativan.
Most of the people I know don’t even know I have a mental illness - only family. Even my college roommate doesn’t know and we have known each other for 20 years.
I’ve been on medication for 8 years, but didn’t start to get bad anxiety until recently. I haven’t had mania in 8 years - sometimes I get hypomania, but I kind of like it and am productive. I just have to make sure I get enough sleep.
Have you read Feeling Good? I would check it out if I were you.
I responded to this post before, but the post disappeared.
I tried to go without drugs from 2011 - 2013, but it didn’t work and I encountered severe mania. I have a chemical imbalance in my brain that requires drugs.
Generally im skeptical because the average doctor is retarded. But if you have me sit down with someone on par with carl jung once in blue moon I wouldn't really object you get what I mean.
But nowadays its really hard to find the good ones and there is so much bad information floating around with every idiot having his own podcast or his own book. Its a total fucking shitshow
I think the mental health field is still in relative infancy compared to many other fields of modern medicine, and beyond generic therapy, you are really rolling the dice with what you're doing to yourself, especially with the drugs. The biggest reason I believe this is that there aren't consistently viable treatments for diseases, or consistent explanations for why some things work sometimes and others don't. I'm not saying that none of the stuff the mental health professionals do works, I'm saying they are likely using the wrong tool for the job, and getting lucky that some things are working some of the time.
Much like how you probably could hammer a large screw into a piece of wood, but you are really doing it the wrong way, and if you don't know any better, the hammer is the best bet. You should drill a prehole then slowly screw it in to prevent the wood from splitting, but you have to work within your realm of understanding. Take a simple problem, like fixing a broken bone, and the treatment will be pretty consistent from person to person because the medical community fully understands the issue top to bottom. Mental health not so much, and I'm not personally so desperate to fix the problem, like I would be with say cancer, to risk it. When I start seeing consistent results, and drugs that don't have increased chance of suicidal thoughts becoming mainstream, I'll happily change my mind. To anyone using modern mental health drugs & therapies, awesome for you, I just feel it's a risk / reward decision that, for me, the risk far outweighs the rewards.
Check out Feeling Good…
Read the wiki on it, very interesting, I'll get a copy.
You say this because you haven’t faced a life crisis where you absolutely needed chemical therapy (drugs).
Also, studies on Lithium are fairly extensive with concrete results.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-open/article/lithium-in…
It is a total quack. Since the increased prevalence of psychiatric therapy, anti-depressants, and the overall "mental health" movement, suicide, drug abuse, divorce, and depression are all up.
Maybe that was the point...look at all of the pioneers of psychology and how many of them were very messed up people who just wanted to normalize their anti-social behavior.
Freud has entered the chat
Just to throw this out there as well - psychiatrists have the highest suicide rate of any profession.
https://medium.com/invisible-illness/psychiatrists-have-the-highest-sui…
The problem is that most people with depression/anxiety need a change of environments/habits, not to talk about it or because they're "repressing emotions" or whatever. As someone pointed out above, people with legitimate trauma, such as soldiers, child abuse and rape victims, death of a significant other, etc. would be good candidates for therapy. Pretty much anything that can be tied to a specific event, so they can help you work through that. And are there people who need medication because their brains are so chemically imbalanced or whatever you want to call it? Yes. But this is a very, very small minority of people, at least much less than is portrayed. Hours at a desk under blue light, alcoholism, lack of exercise, lack of sunlight, lack of sleep, fucking HORRENDOUS diets, dehydration, no connection with nature, and so much more. I truly believe that if you addressed all of these needs/deficiencies that for the most part, our ancestors did not have to deal with, you would cure almost all of the people who fall under "generalized depression and anxiety". That should be the first step in addressing it. Instead of answering a lifestyle problem with a lifestyle solution, we give them pills, which I believe have been an absolute crime against humanity in the way they have been used. Like I said, I'm not trying to downplay those with legitimate trauma, psychological disorders, etc. I just think that pills or even therapy should be a last resort for those with less severe mental health issues, not one of the first. And obviously when you add in the ramifications of COVID, no wonder we're the most depressed society the Earth has ever seen. Some of the studies that show how positive of an effect sunlight, quality sleep, exercise, etc. can have on a person's overall being are absolutely fucking mind blowing. So why are we not focused on these things? Because America's healthcare is a complete fucking joke.
I've worked with psychologists and have been scripted anti-depressants but have been off of them for like 2 years now. Like anything, its hard to find a good psychologist or therapist and I think that the majority didn't really connect with my problems at that time. Ultimately what made me feel better were the lifestyle changes mentioned above, getting to a better place professionally, and just creating better headspace. Gotta help yourself.
Sadly, work culture/competition will only get more intense and the result will be more and more people pumped with medication.
I agree with everything you're saying, but often times a big part of this is work culture, especially in the finance industry. Humans weren't meant to work 80+ hours indoors with little mobility, intellectual stimulation (some industries more than others, but still). I would say, one of the few good things about the pandemic is that people are at least talking about it more, and more people are making active choices to improve their lives. Whereas not everyone used to go to the gym or exercise, because of the new found freedom of commute, etc., I personally know a lot more people that are able to, myself included. But your point with the current US healthcare system focused more on medication and less on prevention (almost always infinitely cheaper for patients, obviously not for the healthcare industry) is very true, this is something that must change, but will be very hard to do, but I believe it will start with people making a conscious effort into improving their lives. Case in point: Isaiah_53_5 💎🙌💎🙌💎 fucking kills it with the health routine and sounds like he's better for it, and while it may not be for everyone, for a lot of people it does feel satisfying as fuck to just move around. It's inspirational to me at least. It's not by accident that a lot of the ancient philosophers, religious leaders, etc. traveled around a lot by foot and told us to simplify things.
100%. I avoided specifically calling out IB and the like, but yes I literally cannot think of a more mental illness inducing environment (at least one that is not obvious to a normal person, of course I'm not saying analysts have it worse than the homeless, abuse victims, etc.) that is extremely high stress and puts you in the worst environment (16-20 hours a day under blue light, eating Seamless every night, etc.). I would be surprised if any normal human *didn't* show signs of substantially decreased happiness, alertness, creativity, mood stability, etc. upon finishing IB.
Therapy I don't think has been helpful for me so far. The first therapist I saw messed my mind up by suggesting I had something that I might not actually have.
Try seeing a psychiatrist who does therapy or a psychologist with extensive training.
Most therapists are shit and became such after failing at everything themselves…
the idea of therapy as in using your own common sense and tools to help yourself or having someone give you that little nudge is effective. but there are a lot of therapists that take your money and take advantage of you and offer bs strategies just beware. Eat healthy, get sleep and exercise and don’t worry about the little stuff.
Sorry but no.
Some people simply have an imbalance of chemicals in the brain that only a psychiatrist and medication can fix.
Due to childhood circumstances, I had recurring nightmares and relationship difficulties well into my mid/late 20s. Talking to a therapist helped me understand some flawed thinking I had and talking through some of the issues allowed me to better understand and accept some of the unresolved conflict I had. There are some people who I think legitimately are just not mentally strong individuals, but therapy both medicated and not, certainly have a place. I never needed to medicate, but simply talking through emotional problems can be very productive and even just stating your rationale out loud to someone can be a very effective to better understand yourself.
Yes I am skeptical of therapy and the mental health movement in general. I think that vast majority of people don't experience "mental health issues." Unfortunately when people today (especially children) face even the slightest bit of stress, they immediately claim they need to "take care of their mental health." This thing has become a huge trend. Look at celebrities like Simone Biles and Phelps talking about mental health issues. Not saying there is anything wrong with their message, but some people (again, especially children) decide that this message somehow applied to them when it doesn't. If this isn't a trend, it's at least a popular excuse to escape hard times.
So yeah, most people don't need to medicate or even talk to a therapist. Talking to a friend or even just "roughing it out" with resilience is enough. Just like a muscle, the human mind needs to face a little pressure to get stronger. Making life too easy and loading up your brain with drugs will soften you to a point that even the smallest hardship will make you crumble.
Brave New World’s soma…
Anyone here take Accutane (Isotretinoin) for acne. Fuck, I’m legit worried what’s gonna happen to me when I get older, based on the shit about it I’ve heard.
Took a 6 month long Regiment like 3 years ago. I feel fine - no real long term side effects except my skin looks great.
Short term side effects are a pain. What’re you worried about
Apparently it fucks up your joints when you get old. I took it when I was like 14-16 tho and am not old so can't comment. I also have always had very dry skin, but I feel like Accutane might've made it permanently worse (or maybe it's just that as you get older, you care more about your appearance than when you were a kid).
Feeling Good is the book you are looking for.
Thing I am is chad!
Thing I am not is virgin!
Funny meme!
I think being able to talk about your issues is important, but I personally don't want to discuss them with a stranger and pay for it. I prefer talking about that with people who are close to me (girls I'm seriously dating).
It depends on tons of factors, for example:
There are plenty of disorders (e.g., OUD, SUD) where medication-assisted treatment is proven to be more effective than vanilla counseling and therapy for the average patient. Others are more mixed and there is no "one size fits all" approach.
I personally am quite negative on pure play mental counseling, but have personally witnessed mixed success with family members.
People need to realize that despite the immense costs to treat mental/behavioral health disorders, in most cases it is significantly cheaper (and morally superior) than long-run impact of ED visits, hospitalizations and other issues.
I am in the vast majority of cases. If someone was the victim of abuse as a child and has deep-seeded issues, has multiple personality disorder, or some sort of chemical imbalance that they can't help, I have no issues w/ it. Other than those kinds of cases, self-improvement/betterment is incredibly simple but incredibly difficult and you don't need to pay a therapist a boatload of money to slowly guide you towards doing or not doing something you already know you need to do/stop.
It's analogous to someone paying a bunch of money for a nutritionist, personal trainer, and supplements to lose weight. There isn't anyone who doesn't know that they need to eat fewer calories & exercise more (and that they have to stick to their diet and workout plan every single day) in order to lose weight, but they're looking for a magic bullet because it's an incredibly daunting task. Same concept w/ virtually every aspect of self-improvement and I'm not belittling how hard it is to square yourself away.
After I washed out of football, I lost 90 pounds over a 15 month period - all I had to do was cut my calories in half and workout every day, but it was really fucking hard. I kicked an opiate addiction after a string of injuries - all I had to do was not eat any pills, but it was really fucking hard. I used to have bad social anxiety - all I had to do was put myself in more social situations and talk w/ ppl I wasn't already good friends w/, but it was really hard. I could list a dozen more things that I need to improve about myself right now, I know exactly how to improve in those areas, but I haven't done so yet because it'd be really fucking hard.
This thread as a good embodiment of how toxic this forum can be.
What's up folks. I'm a therapist by profession (after I quit finance), AMA.
In all seriousness, a lot of you have no idea what is psychiatry and what is therapy, and it shows.
On top of that, there are a lot of forms of therapy, and most of the "therapy fails" you hear about are because the great majority of therapists are incompetent fucks who are trying to force generic interventions on highly specific problems. (e.g. CBT does not solve most issues, OCD has a very specific proven protocol that works through combination of medication + ERP, some disorders actually should NOT be medicated, etc.)
I could go on for days but I'll stop here.
Welcome back to WSO after some time off! I'm curious about two things:
Thank you for your insight. I ask these questions as someone who had been in therapy before but never found it to super-effective. It did help me in some areas, but overall, I found it to be just expensive and largely time consuming to an end that gave me less than I wanted. I appreciate your efforts to help others and come back to this forum to explain.
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