I think God loves evil people (if he exists)
I have been struggling to tell someone I feel this way for over a year now and this forum seems to be the only place where some people are at least smart and can have deep conversations. Looking for perspective from Agnostics, Christians and Muslims mostly.
I have been lucky to have had a varied experience in the entertainment industry and finance. And quite frankly I have gotten to know some politicians, celebrities, senior finance professionals, and people who have made it in the artistic world despite not being mainstream famous, who quite frankly can only be described as monsters, literal monsters.
Not in a Patrick Bateman American Psycho kind of way, where they are at least somewhat human, but more in an Anton Chigurh from No Country for Old Men kinda way, just pure evil.
And what doesn't sit right with my spirit is the fact that these people literally have awesome, pleasure filled lives with zero consequences. They are living lives that can only be describes as the closest thing to heaven humans can get.
I remember a friend of mine who's family makes a lot of money by embezzling money from the government in an African country which has led to unbuilt roads, bridges and hospitals causing many deaths, saying he thinks his family must be true children of God since they can get away with what they are doing and haven't been punished, they are all healthy, smart and have great lives with lots of joy.
Another really big rapper stole a song from a friend of mine who presented it to him to try and make it as a producer and writer, this rapper passed it off as his then got my friend fired from a major label and because he was on a visa he had to be sent back to Pakistan and I haven't heard from him since. This song came out last year and wasn't even that big, it was just a song on his album it has around 50m views on youtube though. This rapper who did that was already rich and living in luxury destroyed someones life just because he could. Again zero consequences and this rapper has a beautiful life. Another arab friend from the middle east literally beats up and humiliates his maids and staff and refers to them as animals.
I have seen many more examples as the above don't want to make this post too long. It got so much, seeing good people suffer unfortunate tragedies I started to become scared of doing good or being sympathetic because the least sympathetic people I know for some reason, have these out of the world opportunities fall in their lap so much it doesn't seem random, it almost feels like the universe or simulation or God or whatever you want to call it is actively rewarding them.
A friend of mine argued that they will be judged in hell but these people are religious and I know one guy who had a reputation for being a destructive bastard in NYC announce on his 80th birthday party he is now a born again and baptized christian. And according to the bible this guy is going to heaven now, again no consequence. He went through is life destroying people's lives and stealing and got away with it in the end.
I don't know where I am going with this and like I said don't want to make this post too long, so what do you guys think
I think you just needed to vent. This sounds like a good of time as any to open up a new blank word doc or OneNote and start writing out anecdotes and thoughts to put it all down and organized. Then if you think it's worth it, repost and drum up a nice round conversation.
Yeah I think you're right too. It just always bothered me when intellectuals wanted to point out a flaw to God's existence or benevolence they usually point out all the suffering in the world which is a valid point. I just wanted to shed light on the other side of the spectrum which is the joy and happiness of a lot of evil people. I'm not saying it is entirely the case that evil people do well and are happy, I am sure most of us here on WSO are good people, its just I have seen so many monsters go unchecked it makes me feel like God is compliant in their activities. As a christian, i feel dirty for having these thoughts but I can't ignore them forever so I brought them here.
Welcome to the conversation between religion, spirituality and ethics my friend.
Yeah if you live an evil life but convert on your deathbed, you can go to heaven.
I believe the last hour of our lives are a mentally and spiritually significant experience. As a Catholic, we pray the Hail Mary often for Mary to be there with us and pray for us at the hour of our death.
If you’re on death row I absolutely believe you can still go to heaven if you repent and are penitent.
To expand on this, Catholics also believe in purgatory, where sins will be atoned for (temporal punishment) prior to entering heaven (for the souls that are not sent to hell) if they are not atoned for in this life. So while any and all sins can be forgiven, that does not mean they will not suffer prior to entering heaven. While God is merciful, he is also just - and many saints have said the suffering in purgatory will be far more severe than anything we can suffer in this life.
Yes you are correct. All I want to do is make it to purgatory.
Some Saints describe to atone for their sins on earth so that they may go straight to heaven upon death. St. John of the Cross describes this in his “Dark Night of the Soul.”
Apparently you have to die spiritually and realize what it feels like for a certain amount of time without God, and only after dying may you sprout spiritually, but it is a painful process.
Hmm I'm not catholic but thats an interesting point. Still doesn't mean much in the long run though since they enter heaven in the end. Even if it takes 1000 years they'll still end up in everlasting euphoria. Plus there are some poor people who aren't the best christians who will still go to purgatory. So they suffer on earth, suffer in purgatory then go to heaven. While the rich enjoy on earth, suffer in purgatory then go to heaven. Rich wicked people still win all things being considered
Muslims need to live a life of following the five pillars to go to heaven. You can't just consciously commit a life of sin, mumble a few words on the deathbed, and go to heaven lmao
Mumbling words you don’t mean won’t get a person to heaven, I assure you.
"I assure you" when talking about heaven lol
So you can be on death-row and commit a life of sin and harm onto others, but saying a prayer before death will get you into heaven as you stated above?
That's a heaven I wouldn't want to be in.
I do not think this is correct. I have heard from a lot of muslim friends that reciting the "shahada" before death basically guarantees heaven and the 911 hijackers probably did a quick recital before the planes crashed into the towers. This was the same shahada Saddam Hussein kept repeating when he was being executed. So it applies in their religion as well, you can be a piece of shit war criminal and murderer but if you see your death coming you have a good chance to escape punishment.
Wonder if they are any wso muslims that can chime in.
The "shahada" or testimony of faith before death does not guarantee heaven, this is a misconception. Outside of what's specifically mentioned in the Quran, there are no guarantees in Islam, other than you will die and you will be judged justly/held accountable for your sins. Verses from the Quran pertaining to your questions:
1) Why does God not punish all evil people on Earth?
Quran 14:42 to 14:47 -
14:42 Do not think ˹O Prophet˺ that God is unaware of what the wrongdoers do. He only delays them until a Day when ˹their˺ eyes will stare in horror— 14:43 rushing forth, heads raised, never blinking, hearts void. 14:44 And warn the people of the Day when the punishment will overtake ˹the wicked among˺ them, and the wrongdoers will cry, “Our Lord! Delay us for a little while. We will respond to Your call and follow the messengers!” ˹It will be said,˺ “Did you not swear before that you would never be removed ˹to the next life˺?” 14:45 You passed by the ruins of those ˹destroyed peoples˺ who had wronged themselves.1 It was made clear to you how We dealt with them, and We gave you ˹many˺ examples. 14:46 They devised every plot, which was fully known to God, but their plotting was not enough to ˹even˺ overpower mountains ˹let alone God. 14:47 So do not think ˹O Prophet˺ that God will fail to keep His promise to His messengers. God is indeed Almighty, capable of punishment. Quran 3:178 to 3:180 - 3:178 Those who disbelieve should not assume that We respite them for their own good. In fact, We only respite them so that they may increase in sinfulness. A humiliating torment awaits them. 3:179 God will not leave the believers as you are, without distinguishing the wicked from the sincere. Nor will God inform you of the future, but God elects from among His messengers whom He wills. So believe in God and His messengers. If you believe and practice piety, you will have a splendid reward. 3:180 Those who withhold what God has given them of his bounty should not assume that is good for them. In fact, it is bad for them. They will be encircled by their hoardings on the Day of Resurrection. To God belongs the inheritance of the heavens and the earth, and God is well acquainted with what you do. 2) Does faith alone guarantee heaven? Quran 29:2 to 29:7 - 29:2 Do people think once they say, “We believe,” that they will be left without being put to the test29:3 We certainly tested those before them. And ˹in this way˺ God will clearly distinguish between those who are truthful and those who are liars. 29:4 Or do the evildoers ˹simply˺ think that they will escape Us? How wrong is their judgment! 29:5 Whoever hopes for the meeting with God, ˹let them know that˺ God’s appointed time is sure to come. He is the All-Hearing, All-Knowing. 29:6 And whoever strives ˹in God’s cause˺, only does so for their own good. Surely God is not in need of ˹any of˺ His creation. 29:7 As for those who believe and do good, We will certainly absolve them of their sins, and reward them according to the best of what they used to do.
How dare you assume God's gender.
Good post, really strikes a cord with me.
The truth is that in a highly capitalist society, it's the law of the jungle. If you're strong, ruthless, smart and quick, you will win. It's just the way of things in places such as the US, UK (to some extent), latin America etc. Sad, but true. Indeed, I fear this mentality is becoming increasingly endemic particularly in the anglosaxon world.
Will there be justice from an agnostic viewpoint? I think so, but only in the broad strokes of societies. In my opinion, a "law of the jungle" society will inevitably rip itself apart and either descend into revolution or become a corrupt kleptocratic 3rd world dump, or both. The rise and fall of Rome is the classic example. But, after the dust settles, more sensible ways of thinking will come about and the centre of power shifts towards new, better functioning societies. It's the cycle of history, as I see it.
From the Christian perspective, God certainly does love evil people. I don't speak for God; I can just recount what the Bible says. In the Parable of the Two Debtors (Luke 7:36-50), Jesus teaches that those who once were ubiquitous sinners and find forgiveness in Christ often love God with greater intensity than people who haven't had many sins forgiven. Luke 15:7, Jesus speaks about how angels in heaven rejoice MORE over 1 sinner who repents than 99 people who don't need to repent. Luke 5:32, Jesus says that he came to the Earth for the sinners, and not for the righteous. So yeah, the Christian God really loves evil people.
Also, the Bible is very clear that bad things generally don't happen to people as a form of punishment (Luke 13) and that good things and bad things happen to both good and evil people (Matthew 5:45)--so there is no causation between being good or evil and wealthy or poor. Also, Jesus reminds people that selling your soul for material rewards on Earth is a pointless endeavor (Matthew 16:26). Our lives on this Earth are vapor (James 4:14) but losing your soul is an eternity of destruction.
Finally, for those who claim to be religious but don't act righteously, the Bible says a million times that they are headed to destruction (Hebrews 10:26, 1 John 5:18), that they aren't really born again. (It's funny because atheists will condemn Christianity as evil because of evil Christians and in defense a Christian might say, "well, he wasn't a real Christian." Atheists mock this as the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, but it's literally a core tenet of Biblical Christianity--a core teaching of the Bible is that there are some people who are not "true Scotsmen" (John 6:40)).
To add, Satan knows the Bible backwards and forward, so just because someone (like me) can quote the Bible or reference it doesn't mean we're good people or are born-again. My New Testament teacher at Virginia Tech was a non-believer, to the best of my recollection. There are a lot of crummy people who fly the standard of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who are actually sons of the Devil. European history is pretty clear on that.
The enemy will give you everything on earth but what these poor souls don’t understand is we are only here for an extremely limited time. 100 years if you’re lucky. Hell is for eternity - as to your friend that was born again after doing a whole bunch of evil things, no man knows the true heart of another. That is between Him and God - and we are in no place to judge or wonder why one isn’t perceived to be receiving any consequences for their actions. I find it easier to focus on my own path and understand that this world isn’t ruled by God. He gave each and everyone of us free will, and in my understanding Satan is the ruler of the world. Whether you needed to vent or not - life is easier when you refuse to play the comparison game.
From a Christian perspective.. The life we experience is strictly that of the flesh. Spiritual life.. that is everything that happens after death, is so much more than that. Yes, there folks who appear to get everything they ask for here and then some... but this body is not eternal.
John 2:16 - "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world"
Hey man. Don't post often here but felt called to on this one as I'm seeing some nuanced topics here being discussed and some misinterpreted.
1) God doesn't love evil. He loves ALL people as we are ALL His creation. Imagine if you had a son or daughter that was bad. You still desperately love him or her despite their actions.
2) Regarding Heaven rejoicing more over 1 sinner repenting than a just man. This does not mean God loves evil people more than good people. He loves us all. He loves that on that day someone found Him and returned to Him. He loves that he is in communion with that guy or gal because what was lost is now found. He still loves his son or daughter who wasn't lost. This ties in with the prodigal son parable.
3) Converting on our deathbed or final hour - is this possible yes. But it is more important than just saying some magic words or saying you believe. It is true repentance, seeing the gravity and sin in your life and being truly sad that you lived a "bad" life. God knows your heart and if it's real or if it's just insurance policy to avoid Hell.
I went on a tangent but TLDR - God loves all of us. We can all be saved if we truly want it but the path to get there is harder the more you stray away from the life Christ calls us to live. Our actions have consequences.
With respect to #2, yes it does mean that God loves evil people (which is a very many people).
Romans 5:7 says, "Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
Yes he loves all people which includes good and evil. I meant to say “it doesn’t mean he loves evil people more than good people. He loves us all.” Edited it.
Genuinely curious, why aren't Jews on that list? They complete the rest of Abrahamic monotheistic religions.
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