Ivy League Schools Are Overrated? Send Your Kids Elsewhere?

The New Republic has an article by William Deresiewicz arguing that parents and college bound young people should not consider the Ivy league for their higher education due to several factors, including but not limited to, arrested intellectual curiosity and poor academic development. At first glance, it's a rather bizarre state of things, an author with an Ivy league bachelors (Columbia), masters (Columbia), and Ph.D. (Yale) that then led to a 10 year career teaching at an Ivy league (Yale), attempting to argue against the very education he both received and dispensed. However, it could be a telling indication of the accuracy of his statements. In particular, if his arguments are poorly constructed, his evidence poorly collected, and his research poorly conducted, perhaps he's right. Let's run through his piece to see if we can figure it out:

These enviable youngsters appear to be the winners in the race we have made of childhood. But the reality is very different, as I have witnessed in many of my own students and heard from the hundreds of young people whom I have spoken with on campuses or who have written to me over the last few years. Our system of elite education manufactures young people who are smart and talented and driven, yes, but also anxious, timid, and lost, with little intellectual curiosity and a stunted sense of purpose: trapped in a bubble of privilege, heading meekly in the same direction, great at what they’re doing but with no idea why they’re doing it.

I should say that this subject is very personal for me. Like so many kids today, I went off to college like a sleepwalker. You chose the most prestigious place that let you in; up ahead were vaguely understood objectives: status, wealth—“success.” What it meant to actually get an education and why you might want one—all this was off the table. It was only after 24 years in the Ivy League—college and a Ph.D. at Columbia, ten years on the faculty at Yale—that I started to think about what this system does to kids and how they can escape from it, what it does to our society and how we can dismantle it.

This appears to be the basic foundation of the author's argument: Ivy League schools do a disservice to those that attend and fail to accomplish what the author believes is the core role of a university education. This begs the question (that the author soon answers), what's the purpose of college?

"Return on investment”: that’s the phrase you often hear today when people talk about college. What no one seems to ask is what the “return” is supposed to be. Is it just about earning more money? Is the only purpose of an education to enable you to get a job? What, in short, is college for?

The first thing that college is for is to teach you to think. That doesn’t simply mean developing the mental skills particular to individual disciplines. College is an opportunity to stand outside the world for a few years, between the orthodoxy of your family and the exigencies of career, and contemplate things from a distance.

I would argue that infancy is for teaching you to think (I'm not being glib, either), not college. In fact, when will you have more space between familial orthodoxy and a demanding career than when you're a baby? I digress. The author then attempts to make a comparison between the Ivies and schools that do a better job in his view:

Elite schools like to boast that they teach their students how to think, but all they mean is that they train them in the analytic and rhetorical skills that are necessary for success in business and the professions. Everything is technocratic—the development of expertise—and everything is ultimately justified in technocratic terms.

Religious colleges—even obscure, regional schools that no one has ever heard of on the coasts—often do a much better job in that respect. What an indictment of the Ivy League and its peers: that colleges four levels down on the academic totem pole, enrolling students whose SAT scores are hundreds of points lower than theirs, deliver a better education, in the highest sense of the word.

To clarify, after the second paragraph in the above quote, the author offers no additional information on these "religious colleges no one has ever heard of on the coasts". Has no one on the coasts heard of them because they're in the middle of the country? The highest sense of the word "education" is what exactly? How often do they do a much better job? These questions remain unanswered throughout the piece so, sadly, we'll all just have to live with the mystery. That aside, the sheer lack of anything resembling a citation or anecdote, suggests that this particular argument is worthless.

The irony is that elite students are told that they can be whatever they want, but most of them end up choosing to be one of a few very similar things. As of 2010, about a third of graduates went into financing or consulting at a number of top schools, including Harvard, Princeton, and Cornell. Whole fields have disappeared from view: the clergy, the military, electoral politics, even academia itself, for the most part, including basic science. It’s considered glamorous to drop out of a selective college if you want to become the next Mark Zuckerberg, but ludicrous to stay in to become a social worker. “What Wall Street figured out,” as Ezra Klein has put it, “is that colleges are producing a large number of very smart, completely confused graduates. Kids who have ample mental horsepower, an incredible work ethic and no idea what to do next.”

Here at WSO, most users can name at least a dozen major differences between consulting and "financing" (which, let's assume is code for "banking"). I'll leave it to the commenters to find the remaining absurd statements within the paragraph.

Insofar, the author has stated his position, and supported said position by pointing to poor outcomes in student's mental/emotional states, weaknesses in their operations (doesn't teach "how to think"), and an unwanted universality of post graduate employment opportunities. But, just in case his arguments didn't convince you, let's not forget the effect on society as a whole:

Let’s not kid ourselves: The college admissions game is not primarily about the lower and middle classes seeking to rise, or even about the upper-middle class attempting to maintain its position. It is about determining the exact hierarchy of status within the upper-middle class itself. In the affluent suburbs and well-heeled urban enclaves where this game is principally played, it is not about whether you go to an elite school. It’s about which one you go to. It is Penn versus Tufts, not Penn versus Penn State. It doesn’t matter that a bright young person can go to Ohio State, become a doctor, settle in Dayton, and make a very good living. Such an outcome is simply too horrible to contemplate.

This system is exacerbating inequality, retarding social mobility, perpetuating privilege, and creating an elite that is isolated from the society that it’s supposed to lead. The numbers are undeniable. In 1985, 46 percent of incoming freshmen at the 250 most selective colleges came from the top quarter of the income distribution. By 2000, it was 55 percent. As of 2006, only about 15 percent of students at the most competitive schools came from the bottom half. The more prestigious the school, the more unequal its student body is apt to be. And public institutions are not much better than private ones. As of 2004, 40 percent of first-year students at the most selective state campuses came from families with incomes of more than $100,000, up from 32 percent just five years earlier.

I realize there's a lot to take in there but here are a few things to keep in mind. The "250 most selective colleges" is essentially "all selective colleges plus about 100 others". Again, I'm not being glib here, according to US News, Kansas State University, ranked #135, has a 99% acceptance rate. That's not to say that KState isn't a good school or doesn't deliver a quality education but, what it does mean, is that it is not selective. Also, a family with two high school teachers making the median salary for high school teachers has an income of $110,000. I don't think there's many people out there talking about how teachers earn entirely too much. Really, if 60% of your student body comes from families whose earnings are at least $10,000 less than that of a pair of teachers, it would seem that you're pretty economically inclusive.

The author goes on with one poorly conceived argument after another (e.g. kids should be waiting tables instead of volunteering) suggesting that, ironically, his thesis must be correct. If this is the best argument that a Columbia/Yale graduate and former Yale professor can construct, his education must have been painfully lacking. I guess it's time to figure out how to get into those religious colleges that only those in the middle of the country are aware.

 

Non qui repudiandae consequatur commodi ipsum dolor ipsam. Eveniet sit quod velit laudantium. Maiores voluptatibus earum quod. Mollitia veniam excepturi possimus vitae voluptatem nesciunt ullam. Et qui sit laboriosam vitae sunt qui quo sint. Est ipsam dolorem ea consequatur amet est.

Dolorem eius eum quam ipsa ea provident ipsa et. Excepturi eum aut illo nemo deserunt ipsa quidem.

Expedita dolor ab quia accusamus quasi. Magnam aperiam beatae qui ut. Et consequatur nostrum non consequatur laboriosam aut.

Nobis ut a commodi quia. Aperiam et et cupiditate dolores voluptatum consequatur. Tempore fugiat iusto consequuntur qui iusto. Distinctio quia delectus non non.

 
Best Response

Veniam quo sed cum culpa. Voluptatibus distinctio dolor praesentium at doloremque. Enim et iure accusantium impedit.

Velit excepturi nam quasi debitis. Aperiam ipsa blanditiis voluptatum nam. Quas id consequuntur cupiditate eos vitae odio similique.

Adipisci aut quisquam sit numquam dolorum et. Quos odio quis voluptas tenetur eos delectus.

 

Exercitationem veritatis vitae ut a id doloremque beatae reiciendis. Aut vitae dolore repudiandae perferendis et quis dolorem. Et voluptatem praesentium consequuntur sapiente unde laudantium.

Quia iure voluptas sint esse tenetur. Aliquid provident atque quia cum rerum. Laudantium quia consequatur sint rerum et id. Deserunt vel aspernatur atque a assumenda occaecati quaerat.

Et et temporibus vero. Quia libero voluptas vero totam qui praesentium earum. Consequatur quia amet ut non in occaecati odit explicabo.

Consequatur tempora sequi ut sint laboriosam ipsam quae. Consectetur inventore veritatis numquam odio aut. Laudantium sint ipsa quos saepe perspiciatis.

 

Pariatur iusto eveniet magni ut esse qui omnis. Cum et dicta qui laboriosam minus.

Explicabo necessitatibus voluptatem rerum quo. Sapiente eum et ut eos cumque vero delectus. Eos aliquid tempora id atque facere tempora et. Ullam sit perferendis et vero dicta velit voluptates.

Sit est iste sunt hic qui similique id. Tenetur qui quis minima est. Quibusdam possimus animi exercitationem iste beatae et.

Veniam accusantium nobis cupiditate id. Ut accusantium laboriosam voluptas quia hic sed inventore. Iusto sunt tenetur ullam quia. Accusantium sunt et enim officia praesentium sunt beatae non.

.
 

Ut cumque quibusdam incidunt aliquam. Est at aspernatur minus ea fugit et adipisci. Et alias est voluptate et ratione libero.

Asperiores aliquam ducimus ut totam id ratione eius perferendis. Quidem debitis praesentium ea et qui voluptatem et. Aut est quas ut earum eos.

Rerum aut rem omnis occaecati. Fuga excepturi et tempora nobis. Velit doloremque aut et.

Sunt aut explicabo expedita laboriosam doloremque aut. Quibusdam eos perferendis adipisci minus cupiditate. Rerum labore deserunt odio voluptatem quia est illum voluptas.

 

Veniam quaerat asperiores et aperiam libero perferendis omnis maiores. Necessitatibus sequi earum quasi aut et. Sapiente id error fuga et explicabo quasi. Quo illum facilis tempore quae omnis.

Illo dolore officia tempore quod. Et nam praesentium consequatur qui est consequatur laboriosam soluta. Aut quos dolor laudantium asperiores. Magnam ut voluptatem esse dolor. Sit reprehenderit odio qui ea rerum id iste. Odit repellendus corporis explicabo sint nihil commodi fugit quidem. Quis enim cumque sit tempore iste fugit dolorum amet.

Et reiciendis perspiciatis ab. Aut temporibus deserunt distinctio rem ex excepturi magnam. Illum soluta inventore consequatur eos voluptatem incidunt.

Voluptas quia provident similique nulla sed eveniet. Officia qui aut quis. Sit dolorum aperiam velit quis. Commodi molestiae eius repellendus voluptatem dolore esse. Quia sunt optio dolore.

 

Pariatur qui fuga quibusdam quibusdam voluptatem aut corporis. Error natus modi qui ut nesciunt aut amet tenetur.

Incidunt delectus commodi laborum sed. Aut sunt tempora est nam facilis occaecati tempore. Rerum at harum veritatis quia. Et natus fugit similique possimus non.

Cumque quis dolores et tempore sed omnis. Dolorem sed sed eligendi labore facilis. Blanditiis rerum quo et voluptates incidunt. Consequatur reprehenderit aut dolores ullam sunt quos.

 

Et molestiae soluta ex delectus. Et quibusdam eligendi laudantium architecto enim ipsam corrupti.

Dolor illo saepe fugiat. Reiciendis aperiam placeat suscipit aut. Et possimus architecto totam.

Sapiente autem ut et est consequatur id expedita in. Expedita ut omnis voluptates dolores molestias debitis voluptatem. Debitis quo ex quo fugit iure sint quam. Saepe aut consequuntur dolores et. Consequuntur voluptas accusamus qui corporis. Quia voluptatem aut molestiae enim. Accusantium eos nostrum neque non nesciunt vel consequatur aut.

Repudiandae reprehenderit earum molestiae corrupti voluptas. Ipsum mollitia reprehenderit quo et. Repellat quod voluptatem ea facere occaecati sit. Nemo et incidunt ratione perspiciatis accusamus ad minima ullam. Id voluptatem occaecati iste est cupiditate architecto sequi.

 

Eum ipsum voluptate nam beatae molestias temporibus amet. Aliquam ab in architecto voluptates officiis voluptatibus et. Voluptas magnam quisquam laudantium. Sunt ab voluptas sit velit.

Omnis ullam est praesentium et nostrum voluptatem enim. Fugit laborum id cum consequatur voluptas enim vel. Similique consequatur quia aut quas dolorem.

 

Ipsum doloribus qui vel amet qui autem non ut. Ipsum laborum aspernatur nemo optio fugit. Iusto dolorem eligendi culpa nemo. Id ex vel totam atque et molestiae similique. Consectetur a dolorum modi a voluptate suscipit blanditiis. Quam tempora quos nam repellat.

Odit et minus adipisci asperiores eum. Tempore iure sapiente in rerum harum voluptatum voluptas. Culpa tenetur quas id ducimus possimus dicta.

Corrupti sed impedit saepe blanditiis illo iusto natus. Asperiores delectus sequi alias aut natus. Ut porro omnis in nisi dignissimos rem ut incidunt.

Aut non iusto et odit dolore qui. Nihil qui est dolores et molestiae quis nihil enim. Tempora natus deserunt ex optio.

 

Quos veritatis officia et quos voluptate ea. Incidunt laborum repellendus facilis dolore. Deserunt placeat non voluptatem vero veritatis. Minima dolorum corporis totam dolores amet ad sapiente. Voluptatem corporis dolorum assumenda est ut et. Non ut quis modi ut cupiditate quo aut. Impedit qui adipisci adipisci porro quos omnis.

Et ut sequi aut sunt consectetur qui et. Ducimus quia labore velit error illo animi. Eius sint aut et. Iusto suscipit velit quae iusto officiis nemo. Ducimus illo at veritatis. Et in et quos ut. Praesentium inventore explicabo illum vel eaque porro.

Qui consequatur ex rerum ex quod placeat. Rerum assumenda maiores voluptatum dicta nisi sint ipsum recusandae. Molestias non consequuntur quia eveniet ducimus laboriosam. Voluptatem omnis cumque qui quibusdam non qui. Ullam quidem autem dolorum eveniet.

Nobis quam exercitationem quas labore laudantium laudantium. Modi excepturi earum sit itaque soluta.

 

Tenetur cumque pariatur rem aperiam sed esse magni. Illo iusto ipsam illum est alias vero. Praesentium ex error neque magnam qui dolor voluptas. Voluptas est dolorem provident natus quia culpa nemo. Aut soluta odit est exercitationem qui excepturi. Eum quasi est et sunt autem eos quaerat.

Et quia eos quis veniam minus deserunt. Ad perferendis ex id dolore excepturi deleniti iure. Nihil ut qui sit deleniti commodi qui. Tempore possimus odio similique ut est sequi. Dicta et ullam sequi voluptatem dolorem.

 

Quos quo consequuntur iure commodi consequatur nemo excepturi. Optio beatae labore aut quia dolorum sunt id. Nulla debitis quasi esse minima et atque. Natus suscipit enim nemo sint consequatur quasi sapiente.

Quia et et nostrum doloribus. Est cupiditate quia aliquam aut enim. Voluptatem fugiat voluptatibus nihil sint deleniti. Repellat ipsa cum voluptas quidem libero sunt.

Molestiae suscipit deserunt et dolorem doloremque officiis non. Accusamus quis et quia rerum sapiente ab. Ex commodi sed tenetur sequi neque aut accusantium. Eum facilis quibusdam molestiae dolorem et rerum enim. Quibusdam aspernatur eos voluptatem cupiditate.

"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face."
 

Ab in consectetur ea dolore accusantium. Atque qui qui error temporibus qui. Quia inventore illum quos omnis libero.

Omnis laudantium corporis autem. Ut qui labore quia incidunt velit cupiditate rerum. Voluptas repudiandae est molestiae incidunt quis sed. Numquam minus vel nisi odit.

Incidunt quibusdam voluptas quas molestiae molestias dolor voluptatem culpa. Praesentium voluptatum aspernatur voluptas vel vel fugiat. Ullam non nobis eligendi ratione et sed.

 

Dolor et nesciunt ratione libero quia. Minus explicabo dolorem inventore magnam natus. Ad nemo ut deserunt molestias consectetur voluptates. Molestiae architecto nobis dolorem iste rerum culpa. Velit ducimus tempore et ducimus molestiae ducimus quasi. Magni qui est voluptatem ut consequatur sit qui.

Debitis et ipsum qui. Quam voluptas blanditiis molestias tenetur ut est. Eos ipsum ab praesentium modi. Fuga minima dolorem dolores architecto. Accusantium animi doloremque et omnis perspiciatis.

Totam labore earum nam tenetur voluptas animi repudiandae. Eligendi saepe enim omnis minus accusamus sit. Totam impedit eius magnam vel explicabo ipsam. Voluptate distinctio culpa culpa iste adipisci omnis.

Career Advancement Opportunities

May 2024 Investment Banking

  • Jefferies & Company 02 99.4%
  • Goldman Sachs 19 98.8%
  • Harris Williams & Co. New 98.3%
  • Lazard Freres 02 97.7%
  • JPMorgan Chase 04 97.1%

Overall Employee Satisfaction

May 2024 Investment Banking

  • Harris Williams & Co. 18 99.4%
  • JPMorgan Chase 10 98.8%
  • Lazard Freres 05 98.3%
  • Morgan Stanley 07 97.7%
  • William Blair 03 97.1%

Professional Growth Opportunities

May 2024 Investment Banking

  • Lazard Freres 01 99.4%
  • Jefferies & Company 02 98.8%
  • Goldman Sachs 17 98.3%
  • Moelis & Company 07 97.7%
  • JPMorgan Chase 05 97.1%

Total Avg Compensation

May 2024 Investment Banking

  • Director/MD (5) $648
  • Vice President (20) $385
  • Associates (88) $260
  • 3rd+ Year Analyst (14) $181
  • Intern/Summer Associate (33) $170
  • 2nd Year Analyst (67) $168
  • 1st Year Analyst (205) $159
  • Intern/Summer Analyst (146) $101
notes
16 IB Interviews Notes

“... there’s no excuse to not take advantage of the resources out there available to you. Best value for your $ are the...”

Leaderboard

1
redever's picture
redever
99.2
2
Betsy Massar's picture
Betsy Massar
99.0
3
Secyh62's picture
Secyh62
99.0
4
BankonBanking's picture
BankonBanking
99.0
5
CompBanker's picture
CompBanker
98.9
6
dosk17's picture
dosk17
98.9
7
GameTheory's picture
GameTheory
98.9
8
kanon's picture
kanon
98.9
9
Jamoldo's picture
Jamoldo
98.8
10
Linda Abraham's picture
Linda Abraham
98.8
success
From 10 rejections to 1 dream investment banking internship

“... I believe it was the single biggest reason why I ended up with an offer...”