Weekend Wars: Paterno vs. Corzine
Hey guys, I have been insanely busy over the past week and I haven't had a chance to post anything. For those of you who don't like to read my stuff, I hope you enjoyed the break. Glancing over the boards to see what I missed over the past week, one specific discussion caught my eye. I know I do a lot of ranting on personal values and world views, but I rarely see such vapid examples of stupidity on WSO that are the hallmarks of our society at large. I expect better of you guys.
This week, I was greeted by the shameless and pathetic hatred of an American icon by a great many of you. Though he may not seem like someone who has anything to do with the daily Wall Street grind, Joe Paterno is definitely someone a lot of you snot excavating mass media sword swallowers could study in greater detail as an example of how to hold yourself, lead, organize and behave in the workplace.
I for one have never been anywhere Penn State, Happy Valley or the location of any of Jerry Sandusky's perversions, but neither have any of you. It shocks me that so many of you little shitburgs who have accomplished precisely fucking nothing in your lives, presume to pass judgment on a man who has done more for his community than all of us put together have for ours.
The truly pathetic and despicable aspect of all the hate and judgment is the obvious lack of clarity and definitive truth to Paterno's involvement in the misdeeds of someone else. We still do not have a clue as to what Joe Paterno really knew or didn't know.
I know that I should know better, but when I see full grown men willing to vilify one another over gossip and he said, she said I can't help you guys would all be better off nip tucking and joining the Girl Scouts.
On the other hand, an arch villain like Jon Corzine gets a free pass from most, if not all of you. He is not really worth mentioning. A drop in the bucket. A mere afterthought.
After all, this is only a Wall Street forum...why should any of us give a shit that one of the most powerful players in the financial game just sunk a multi billion dollar battleship, that another back door bailout is under way and that $600M crumbs disappeared under the carpet?
Why should we care about Corzine when Joe Paterno didn't snitch out someone for something he might have heard about because somebody else told him that this other guy was doing this thing to someone else?
Really sad. Really judgmental and beyond moronic. A power player in your chosen profession is besmirching the industry with his gross incompetence, paving the way for more expenses landing on your back and you guys are calling for the head of someone who stood, stands and always will always stand for decency, morality and the right way of doing things.
Just another morning in modern America, where heroes get the lynch mob and villains are pardoned.
Good thing Boardwalk Empire's on tonight. Nothing like a show taking place in the Roaring Twenties, to illustrate the depravity we foster nearly a century later.
I can only laugh, because my girlfriend and I just got into a huge fight about America's schizophrenic obsession with celebrity vilification/idolization vs our apathy towards real issues.
Thanks for the post,
I can only assume you are talking about the cluster fuck that was the Penn State thread.
Fact of the matter is those same people that would love nothing more than to see JoePa publicly lynched are the same people that would suck Corzine's dick for a job or to raise their status in society.
OK Midas usually I'm a huge fan of you're rants but i don't understand the controversy here. As far as I can see :
1: student gets cock stuffed in mouth.
2: Coach witnesses penetration in question.
3: Coach decides to watch Seinfeld re-runs and crack another bag of cheese puffs rather than do something about it.
4:coach is fired and disgraced publicly.
I dont understand how this is not a perfectly regular progression of events. Have we not yet established that molesting people is not actually considered a good deed? I dont hate Coach Paterno but it would be pretty fucking stupid for the school NOT to fire him. As for Corzine, maybe if it had been him on the business end of that cock I would care less.
I'm not a fan of Corzine at all. I'm from Jersey and the guy basically assumed a certain level of fortune and fame in his life and then proceeded to......squander it. He gets no respect from from me for his behavior from about 1998 forward. Everything he did came at someone else's expense and didn't last....he's a washed up has been who at this point is dangerous to anyone and everyone who associates with him.
AS FOR JOEPA.....it's very, very sad that something like this would be associated with his name at the end of his career, especially given that he's had such a good run. The guy has touched countless people and I even used to have a boss who shared Joe's philosophy and management style and made it possible for me to get to where I am now.
THAT HAVING BEEN SAID....there is no shortage of gangsters, crooks, and assorted scumbags who have wrapped themselves in the flag or some other sanctimonious cover while being involved with the most vile livelihoods that mankind has to offer. When such people are exposed I feel little pity; in fact, having been deceived they now become subject to the full force of the wrath and vitreol they duly deserve. Our nation has a history of forgiving people for trully heinous crimes because they offset them with good deeds, but I'm not one of those people that does so. Rewards are given for good behavior, and punishment is doled out for the bad. Being rich, famous, and successful is does not change that in my book. End of story. Do you think that the kids who were raped give a shit if the guy teaches the other kids to run very fast and catch a ball? Not really. Not at all.
I haven't been following this simply because it's too painful to watch and I can't change anything. I'm withholding judgement until more is known. If it turns out that Paterno was enabling a child molester, I can put aside the decades of fame and recognition he's had to accept the infamy of wrongdoing.....but I truly hope that Paterno was wholly justified in whatever decisions he made.
i see what you mean Midas it actually makes sense because jp didnt see anything himself. he was only told by a student worker and he passed that knowledge up which is actually what all us is supposed to do. what firm ever says to call the cops first and then compliance/hr?
100% that television would be beyond moronic and grossly incompetent without Boardwalk Empire
I am tired of hearing the JoePa didn't do anything bullshit. He reported it to the head of campus PD. Seems like that is enough for someone who got second hand information from that pussy McQ that actually saw it, went home and slept on it and then told an 80 year old football coach INSTEAD of the police.
The people that didn't do anything were the DA and the police the first time Sandusky was caught doing this in the mid 90s.
Noname,
Get your facts straight before you comment.
UFO,
I don't know about that last bit. At least one attorney for the victims has come out and said that he and his clients weren't happy about how Paterno was let go. What does that say when the victims are divided about Paterno, especially in today's 24/7 media influenced world. And yes, when everything comes out, then I will reserve my judgement for Paterno at that point in time.
Midas,
I have been giving this a lot of thought, and it was the topic of debate with my friends during the half time break of yesterday's Penn State/Nebraska game. While we weren't talking about Corzine in particular, moreso we were discussing the SMU Death Penalty, Miami's troubles, Oklahoma's Berry Switzer era, Arizona State's infractions and CharIie Pell at Florida, it came down to the fact that we can't further vilify those who have already been tarnished. If this happened at Miami, a school who had already seen its share of infractions, it would have been viewed in a different light once because the school already was known for being a bunch of rule breakers that were prone to scandal. It's easier to make a witch hunt out of someone who is known for a sterling reputation than someone without it. This is why the media blitz was on Paterno, and Sandusky. Now that the media got what it wanted, hopefully they can stop looking at Paterno and move onto watching Sandusky all the time. Corzine, on the other hand, already had a broken image. He was already associated with failure and scandal during his time as Senator for and Governor of New Jersey. When you already have that tarnished reputation, people will look at you differently and excuse your actions through illogical rational.
We think and rationalize that our own actions (or those of our ilk) are far above moral reproach. This is why just about everyone here on WSO hasn't discussed whether or not they think what Corzine did was wrong (Blowing up MF Global, seeing 1000 people lose their jobs, causing more turmoil in the markets), nor have we discussed the abject moral failure he engaged in. We didn't think much of Abacus and the slap on the wrist fine that the SEC gave Goldman despite the abdication of moral duty to engage in fair and honest business. We were more concerned over TARP and the idea of a bailout as opposed to the moral abject failure at all levels that got us into this situation. We talk about the legal failure that Raj Rajaratnam had, but not the moral failure in deciding to repeatedly engage in insider trading. We will rationalize the failure in Europe, of Greece and Italy, as being over leveraged, debt laden countries that are unable to restart their economies and need to be bailed out at all costs instead of the ethical and moral hazard of their own governance and that continually lending to them and feeding their destructive behavior will result in further moral harm. For all the talk of austerity, there will never be any when you have moral corruption serving as the way business is done as usual. Ultimately, we'll rationalize Corzine's failure as bad business decision and not one of a failed moral obligation he owes to each and every stakeholder at MF Global, from the janitors to the shareholders, to act in their best interests at all times. So when you look at Penn State, Paterno and the heinous acts perpetrated by Sandusky, a sick and twisted man who deserves to be left to rot in the 9th circle of hell, you cry moral and abject failure because that's all you, as outsiders see, yet who are you to criticize others when your own house and career path is rife with problems.
Or just maybe... we can live with ourselves, morally that is, for all of the economic damage and harm caused to so many people as a result of our chosen path's greed and avarice, but when it involves children, all of a sudden our morals appear to turn on. We turn a blind eye to everyone doing evil, from the drug dealer on the corner to Lloyd Blankfien - the self proclaimed banker doing God's work, until it is something like this, a crime so wrong that we cannot help but hate the guy doing it, is committed. What does it say about us as people then? Where's the humanity we're supposed have - the same moral sense of right and wrong that people like Paterno stood for - and why does it only come up during the most reprehensible times?
It's just some food for thought...
Richard Harrow is a bad ass mother fucker.
Welcome back Midas, the only guy who gives it straight
Long time reader here, first time I felt compelled enough to post so I registered an account just for this.
How can you not see a moral obligation for Joe Paterno to see those accusations through? Did you read the court case documents? He was told by a credible source that one of his assistant coaches was fucking a child in the ass in the locker room shower, and tells his superior. He then sits there and does nothing for however many years while the athletic director and whoever else in PSU's upper management twiddled their thumbs?
He had a great run, great career, and did a lot of things for the community. That does not make up for him turning a blind eye to a very, very serious accusation. So enough of this "poor Joe Paterno, what a guy!' bullshit. Children were raped and molested and their lives are ruined forever, I wish this piece of shit actually broke a law so he could be arrested instead of only publicly humiliated.
As far as Corzine goes, he's a scumbag too. But America doesn't look to people like him to be a moral compass. It's a sad day for American culture when one of the most prominent figures in football (which is, after all, the soul of this country) sweeps child rape under the rug.
TLDR: Just because Paterno reported it to a superior doesn't mean he is free and clear of moral responsibility to see it through. He's a fucking 80 year old man, he should have known better.
Paterno was a football coach, not head of campus PD, like the man he reported the incident to, Schultz (his superior).
Again, Paterno received second hand information and reported it to his superiors, the people that actually have authority to deal with the issue.
Why the fuck is Paterno receiving all this hate but McQ goes unmentioned.
Amazing.
Let's break this down...
Sandusky, at the time, was not a coach. He was a retired defensive coordinator who had not been on Paterno's staff since '99. He resigned because of allegations made in '98 that were never fully investigated. He was not a coach affiliated with the team. McQueary, a graduate assistant, saw Sandusky in the shower with a kid - and should have acted differently. McQueary saw Sandusky abuse a child and then waited at least 12 hours to pass before going to Paterno. Hell, McQueary spoke with his father before he even went to Paterno. There was more than enough time for McQueary to do something at first glance. McQueary then went to Paterno; we do not know what exactly was said during that conversation, however it was significant enough for Paterno to follow PA's Child Abuse Law and go to his superiors, Curley and Schultz. Paterno was given the information in a secondhand fashion (McQueary told him what he saw), making what he said potentially inadmissible in court because it may or may not have been hearsay - and it does not look like this feel within an exception to the rule. So you would rather see Paterno rot for not following up instead of focus this on Sandusky? Great... what a character you are.
So is moral responsibility more important to legal responsibility then? If it is the case, how do you reconcile the lack of moral obligation with our legal obligation? Is one more important that the other, or is this just a case where we are shocked into action and won't be phased when another crime happens, affecting people yet goes unnoticed by the masses because it's not involving the abuse of children.
I never said McQ was any less at fault, but no one is rioting over his dismissal (I don't know what his status is, but he should have been dismissed if he wasn't). I was responding to the OP who was citing Paterno's contribution to the community as some sort of free pass for being a shitty human being?
Second hand information or not, an allegation like that is serious enough where you see it through if you are a decent human being. Maybe Paterno made a mistake and is a great guy, but you deal with the aftermath when you make a mistake that big. He was fired because he deserved to be.
And I'm not focusing on Sandusky because there is no debate there, no one disagrees that he is less than human and will go to jail for a very long time. Not really worth talking about. The issue with Paterno has many more shades of gray and needs to be discussed precisely because he did not break American law, he broke the law of a decent citizen and lacked the responsibility and foresight we expect from a man with his influence and power.
The Penn St debacle will all get sorted out. Those in question will be fired if not already and individuals will go the jail. It is sad that it has taken this long but it will be dealt with.
The MF Global blow up has far greater implications upon the global markets as a whole. Corzine being an idiot was proven from his mishandling of the LTCM situation and his later force out at GS. There has long been morons on a firms trade desk. The glaring mishandling of this apparent fraud is what disturbs me. The CFTC regulation handbook has a loop hole that allowed for the risky bets by MF. The fact that the Obama Administration(this happened under their watch) or any presidential candidate has yet to utter a word on what is going on makes me feel as if they stand against the same individuals that they want to see in the voters booth. A check was cut for AIG, Citi, BofA, GS, JPM, Fannie, Freddie, countless other financial institutions, and one is about to get cut for this retarded Job bill. Trillions have been spent. Yet clients may have been stolen from, and no one blames our federal regulators for dropping the ball? Gary Gensler should be fired! Your money is not safe with in a segregated account. I know floor brokers and firms with 100 of thousands and some with millions that are still frozen with MF Global. I spoke to a floor broker with a $15M call in his own account because he was not allowed to hedge his bets in time. We are talking individual lively hoods here who blatantly were lied to. "Your assets are safe in segregated accounts, you are protected against chapter 11". They will be lucky to see 60% of their equity returned after the smoke has cleared. The media is attempting to make this a situation about MF Global over leveraging... THIS IS FAR DEEPER THAN THAT. The system has just failed investors, again.
If you think your safe because you do not trade derivatives wait until security institutions feel the wrath. Equity investors will not be saved.... MF Global was just the first to bite the bullet. I think there will be far greater ramifications from this. Wait until more runs on European debt takes place. It will get ugly in a hurry.
As you have a much better understanding about the MF Global situation what is likely to happen when all is said and done?
Bravo, great comparative analysis but you're missing the point. Yes, MF Global is going to be a horrific shitshow that no one will forget. That is not a point of debate, particularly here. What I'm saying (and is seeming being glanced over) is that we look at Penn State in abject horror, but we're ignoring the fact that the guy who blew up MF Global is going away home free and has no one to answer to. We're not up in arms over the fact that Corzine may have just pushed the global financial markets one step closer to the edge yet we demand Paterno's head for his lack of moral action. I am complaining about the lack of standard for outrage and that for all of the bullshit shenanigans that the financial industry has gotten away with, the outrage is nothing compared to what happens when a heinous act is committed, and far worse will happen despite the unspoken anger. It's the double standard that is absolute bullshit.
** Apologies in advance for the long post. **
yes, let's, I have some time this morning: Corzine -> actively exploiting the system, global reach in ramifications Paterno -> negligence. He succeeded in a legal CYA, but failed as a person. He is a nationally revered role model, despite what people 'think should be', and is being held to a higher standard.It's one thing to support JoePa, it's another to make excuses for a shortcoming. I'll let things slide when they're not hurting anyone, but people WERE hurt, and his being fired should be the least that he has to worry about if a criminal negligence case is made. It's a shitty way to end a brilliant career, for sure, but just like my political analyses that sometimes piss people off, I'm trying to try to look at it realistically. The best case scenario is that he's been vindicated at his current status. He stays free, and retains his winning record and strong support base (people will always love him). After some time, people will look [largely] past this incident and he'll be back on TV. Knowing JoePa, he'll likely get involved in some type of outreach program, and I truthfully believe that maybe he thought he could 'help' Sandusky with his 'problem'...and thereby enabled him unwittingly.
Not a whole lot. Everyone is jockeying for the best position on the legal/PR chessboard before the nuclear war. A) The lawyer is speaking on behalf of a client and B) that client may have had a less terrible experience. It's impossible to know at this point, it's too soon. Sympathizing with the abuser is a large component of why such crimes aren't more actively prosecuted in the first place.Paterno's status is largely derived from the good influence he had on generations of youth...he should have been using his influence to protect them. If it came at the expense of a few of the other kids getting gold stars for playing some game, then so be it. The program and the university as a whole are going to suffer FAR MORE based on current events than had Sandusky been dealt with earlier. Personally, I think that others (not the least of which is Sandusky) are FAR more at fault, but the issue remains that they turned a blind eye to a rather serious crime. Honestly, I'm a bit taken aback with the people attempting to rationalize their way around this...Let's put aside the assumptions that all players are rational actors. In all honestly, if someone attempted to plunder my wealth or family, I'm liable to pulverize / kill them.
This sounds rude, but that's how Dad did it, that's how America does it, and it's worked out pretty well so far :)
Remember a few years ago that this same issue threatened the very power structure of an institution as powerful as the Roman Catholic Church. BTW, I was in favor of excommunicating and prosecuting the guilty priests...and defending the innocent ones from people who merely like to take cheap shots at the Church. They too tried to hide behind their good works but at the end of the day, they were guilty / complicit in a violation of trust on a rather serious issue. Everyone loses now, and there's even talk of closing the university if it turns out to be true that the alums were using the place as a nexus for child trafficking...this is third world dictatorship exploitation shit, not charges you'd EVER be expected to hear coming out of an American insitution of higher learning.
Paterno has already been punished and Sandusky will be like a piece of ass candy in prison, so let's focus on what remains in this conversation:
...yet. President Obama would do well to jump on this immediately, and I think Corzine is the perfect person to make an example out of, and do it in the typical New Jersey fashion while we're at it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worse_is_better Let's try THIS on for a minute: the government can step in, make all clients whole, and prosecute Corzine with great prejudice because, unlike the 2008 crash, there is no way to obscure who is responsible: it is crystal clear. He can also be directly sued for damages. The regulatory groups/individuals associated can also be adjusted, terminated, or otherwise made an example out of. There is no question as to WHO did WHAT in this case, and this can be the landmark case that Raj G was supposed to be. Figuratively speaking, why go after Martha Stewart when you could get a Ken Lay? My support goes the the Jaime Dimon's and Peter Lynch's of the world, and not the shoddy criminals who think some loophole in the written laws exempts them from decency and good judgement.I think it's very important that the full weight of the system fall where it's supposed to in order to make the case that the huge pass that Wall Street was given in 2008 was a one time deal. Just like a hockey game with a bad ref, business with shitty rules that aren't enforced gives no one an incentive to show up or do the right thing.
The law sometimes protects people from themselves.
So then what's the difference, from a moral perspective, between what Paterno did and what Corzine did?
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