Is Every PE Associate Unhappy?
Hi all --
Caught up with my fellow associates last night for a dinner after not seeing each other for awhile all at once (had been WFH w/ Omicron). Seems that we all dread the job (some more than others) where it feels like banking again (only reason we stay is money / bonus / B School) and folks are literally counting down the days until they can leave. Hours aren't great but we also just aren't treated well by VPs.
It sounds like people are going to consider moving after bonuses hit this summer -- but before I start thinking about that, I wanted to check if this experience is similar across the board? I'm at an UMM in a tier 1 city (NY / Chi / LA / SF), if that's helpful. Before I consider leaving I want to have a view on lateraling to another PE shop or leaving the industry. I personally loathe the job and can barely motivate myself to stay for the bonus (have about 6 more months, which seems daunting), but I can't tell if it's firm driven or if I just don't like PE. Could be both I guess, but the comp isn't enough to keep me from burning out so I'm wary of being in this spot at a new firm in 12 months time if it's PE.
Couple of things. In normal times, I wouldn’t say every pe associate is unhappy. But probably many are at reputable firms. The question you should be asking is are VPs+ happy. And on that one I see a bigger range of happiness.
these are not normal times though. Seems like the misery ramped up with Covid: general malaise felt throughout society + m&a landslide of Q3’20-Q4’21 (to present?) really dragged morale down across the board and it hasn’t returned. So recognize that is some of what you’re feeling.
in reading your note it sounds like what you’re really asking is “do I want to do pe, and if not, what do I want to do for my career”. For that one I’d say therapy/career coach/mentors might help you in the immediate term to make that decision. I like starting here because the next list of things I’m about to mention all have costs associated, and it’s hard to target until you get some sense of what you want. Get a good list of alternative ideas and then go talk to folks who’ve actually done that (informational interviews). More tactically, B school would also be a great way to help broaden your exposure and clear your head. You could also do a stint at a portco for a bit and then come back to pe if you want. Best of luck. Think these are not uncommon questions at this stage of life/career btw.
Thanks for the thought-out response. The VP point makes sense -- I think they are decently happy but frankly I wouldn't want the lifestyle they have at their age (30s, working 60 hours a week + weekends, etc.). I get they are pulling carry and have more skin in the game but I could not see myself as a VP at my firm for one moment at all.
Your morale point makes sense -- somewhere in along my second year of IB (which was 2020 / 2021) I really started burning out, and wasn't able to get my morale back up before starting this current role. I wasn't originally thinking of taking the post in this direction (except perhaps subconsciously) but I'm starting therapy in the near term to help me cope with these thoughts / idea on what I actually want with my life. Frankly I wonder if I started therapy in banking if I'd be in this spot, but that's all in the past and can't change it now. My current short list is start-up in strategic finance (not sure I like doing deal-based work, but this could just be the burnout making me less excited for new deals) or try another PE firm with B school as a backup plan if I realize PE is just not for me. I've started on the informational interviews and will start looking for jobs in a few months if I like what I hear, with the idea of leaving in July / August after the bonus gets paid.
Funny you say that about the VPs because in my experience 60 hours would be considered good for a VP. So maybe that’s one reason to keep doing your homework and maybe give your firm a second chance!
One exercise I suggest to you is to break out all of the component parts of your job and assessing them individually. Modeling vs research vs mgmt interactions vs IC memo drafting etc. and break into as small as you can go. You are unhappy because the aggregate of your various activities nets to you being unhappy. However in reality, some of these you enjoy, some you can tolerate, some you absolutely loathe. Likewise some you are great at, some you suck at, and some you’re adequate. If you measure all those out across that grid (rows are component activities and columns are enjoyment and personal ability) and ideally track that over time, you should start to get some answers. The nice thing about this exercise with PE is that you wear so many hats than you can really get a breadth of answers. This is ripped out of a book called “designing your life” to give full credit. I think doing this exercise + therapy (which can tease out your other motivators and uncloud your mind) would be a really powerful way to see what’s next.
Not all associates are unhappy of course.
People get into finance for the money and because barriers of entry are quite low. Anyone can hustle and eventually break into finance, but you can’t just hustle and become a doctor or lawyer for example.
It sounds like the money just isn’t what motivates you, and that’s actually a good thing. Do you have balance in your life? Good relationship with your family? Healthy relationship with gf or wife? Exercise part of your life? Hobby that you love? If you don’t have balance in your life, you will grow to hate any job.
I also think happiness is directly correlated with your main boss. You can work at Warburg pincus and hate your life and you could work at HSBC corporate banking and live life, all depends on your boss and how he treats you. Is your direct head or vp just a typical finance douche?
Its actually really funny you say that- my family says the exact opposite. They say that breaking into finance is near impossible for a non-target, and that anyone can work hard and become a doctor.
Really? Kinda funny cause I believe it’s the exact opposite.
I’ve worked at BBs over my career and there were so many people who went to crappy schools. Just check LinkedIn.
My wife is a doctor and my bro is a lawyer. They had to both get graduate degrees to enter their profession. At least law school is just a few extra years. To be a doc, you gotta do undergrad, med school, residency and then specialize. I’m shocked you’re parents think anyone can do that. Finance all you need is undergrad. Do you work in an investment bank? How many of your colleagues are Ivy League?
I think growth or smaller shops you see people that are happier. Like others mentioned, it’s not an uncommon conclusion to come to. Breaking out what parts you like and dislike are very helpful. I don’t know any associates at brand name shops that are genuinely happy aside from a few people that are totally ok having nothing else in their life aside from their job.
For me personally, I really needed to get autonomy. I hated feeling like I was just running a process—getting to a smaller shop made my life significantly more enjoyable. There is more pressure on me and I have to be “the guy” but I really control my hours now because I’m the person picking the analysis to do etc. That said, I’m paid less and have way more JV type people around me. Life has trade offs.
I think it’s really about finding the right team / group at one of these PE firms. I’ve had a pretty good experience with my group and the people that have left just didn’t like PE. I think there are tough parts of the job, but as long as you like the core of it, you can make it work. It’s definitely very important to find a group with a senior team that have lives outside of work.
The past couple years have been shitty generally, but work following you home and making you feel permanently on call certainly doesn't help things.
The only reason this job makes me unhappy is the lack of respect for my personal time and the assumption that you can buy every hour of my life to do BS stuff for a couple hundred k post tax. Otherwise I like the nature of the job.
same here, i dont even really care about the money or name anymore, i just want to leave and do corp dev in a tech company or smthn and enjoy my life
No. But in UMM+, probably
In short, this is not PE specific. There is a great dissatisfaction in any industry you can point to...from the employees.
Short of being a professional athlete or working at Baupost or something I’m not certain there is an employee role that would make me (and people like me) “happy”.
All your unsatisfied peers probably want to own something.
Can’t expect the fulfillment of an owner as an employee.
That is very true. Need to own the cash machine
I knew associates/analysts at my old firm that seemed happy. That said, they shared last names with senior people in the firm.
Are you me? Everytime I switch jobs I feel invigorated and excited to start the new gig because the old one was getting exhausting/daunting. 18 months later, I'm back to phase I and am looking to jump again after the bonus hits. After doing this a couple times, I'm now convinced I don't really like the job and plan to leave the industry all together. But then, now that I'm older I have f totally fucked myself by developing bad lifestyle habits (ie: not looking at prices on menus, not looking at pricing on anything really). So now, I don't know what to do...
Once you stop making finance money it's fairly easy to reign yourself in on spending and then nothing feels different honestly, you're just staying in a $200/night place in Aspen and not the four seasons
How in the world are you affording the Four Seasons in Aspen as an Associate in PE. Even if you’re making 500K+ a year, i think spending $500-$1,000 per night at a hotel is reckless. I really do think luxuries like first / business class tickets and stays at 5 star hotels are way out of any Associate or VPs budget.
Point taken but a $200/night place "in Aspen" sounds like a bench and a blanket or a Hampton Inn 100 miles down the road... maybe don't go to places like Aspen at all if you are on a budget.
Have been at the same MF through my career… but generally: yes. Atleast in MF world, if you live this lifestyle and don’t hate it there’s something wrong with you.
Most that have actually been putting in effort and trying to do a good job are usually by the end of the associate stint hanging on by a thread. Imagine running at a dead sprint for a marathon. It’s inhumane and brutal and not designed to be sustainable in any way.
It’s sort of like a 2 year Wall St BUDS hell week. Most said it was worse than banking.
My associate class was filled with people who said they weren’t coming back post-MBA. The vast majority that had the offer to return did. Of the ones that didnt, very very few ended up anywhere other than MF/UMM PE. It’s too lucrative and once you’re through hell week, why would you quit when things actually get better and you’ve got a squad of animals you can have do all the heavy lifting.
But do things actually get materially better? When?
x2
Depends where you work.
On average: as a tenured VP it starts to get meaningfully better. By Principal its night and day.
Life as an Associate is hell on earth. As a VP, you're still forced to interact with this sub-human and as a result you sully yourself with the dust and soot caked on his face whenever he emerges from the engine room.
You're still managing the Associate and so either rolling up your sleeves to pick up overflow workload on a crunched timeline or to do work he/she is not capable of doing. So there's still a fair amount of heavy lifting (but more execution based vs. pure model and data room cranking) at the VP level.
By the time you're a Principal, you've got 2 very capable and motivated resources below you. This obviously isn't always the case as you from time to time get some duds, but provided you're working at a firm that consistently gets top tier talent (i.e., smart enough x super motivated), that's very seldom the case.
They're largely on autopilot.
At worst: it never gets better. You work at Apollo or certain groups at Warburg Pincus etc. You get demolished as an Associate. The adherence to ruthless workethic is evangelical and the more senior people get and the less brute force/heavy lifting is required, the more capacity is freed up for them to fill with additional initiatives/deals. The grind is their religion, and they burn the heretic in the town square.
I'm happy
the majority. I'd say most people leave after 2 yrs. the numbers don't add up, there are only so many PE spots and new PE analysts/associates every year, the industry isn't growing exponentially.
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