I'm seeing lots of articles here and elsewhere regarding the tendency of some to go all-in for HSW (sometimes just HS), and if they don't get in they stay put.
I understand the economics of the situation - value proposition, opportunity cost - and that everyone has different ambitions, but the HSW or bust concept seems to indicate that the implications of HSW MBA is SO much better than the remainder of MBA business schools">M7 that it in MOST cases it wouldn't be worth leaving a current job at all.
Is this really the case? I feel like this is only the case for people with really successful, traditional backgrounds. For someone like me trying to claw out of Big 4 Audit into Consulting, it seems to make sense to shoot for HSW but take what I can get, right?
What do you guys think?
Dude, it depends what your goals are. For MBB there are way more schools to consider, same for sell-side finance.
Bust
I would guess that additional doors open up for the top 3%-5% of people at HSW...they're the ones who go on to the top VC firms, elite megafunds, high elected offices and government posts, big time hedge funds, etc....Other than that, the vast majority of grads from these schools often end up in the same "regular" six-figure MBA jobs as everyone else in the top 10-15. Not too shabby, but not exactly gamechanging. I briefly considered IB and met VPs and MDs at bulge brackets and top boutiques who ran the gamut from HBS all the way "down" to Duke. I know a Wharton grad who passed up a 70% ride at Columbia and ended up doing corporate finance-FLDP at a (major) toy manufacturer. She should've just taken the money because she could have easily gotten that same gig with much less debt and similar prestige coming out of Columbia, lol. But she's playing the "long" game (her words).
If you go to an M7 (top 10, really, and to a lesser extent top 15) and absolutely kill it, you will likely end up wherever you want. I'm at Tuck and they do a surprisingly good job getting folks into PE, McKinsey, etc...especially in terms of percentages compared to the small class size. Granted I don't care about becoming a Master of the Universe so will settle for a cushy F500 post, but the handful of folks here dreaming of becoming BSDs are getting plenty of facetime.
If you're looking to go from Big 4 to M/B/B, any M7 or top program will do. I've met probably a dozen 2nd years who made the same (or a similar) transition. Not all got MBB specifically, but most certainly did. If you're on one of those uber-prestigious paths- Ivy-->Goldman-->Carlyle Group...then you're probably better off at HSW if you can swing it. But even then I see these types end up at some other top 5 or M7 and still knock it out the park. If you're an elite candidate and have the talent, you'll find the right gateway and/or standout regardless.
This.
This times a million.
Very well said. Most HBS grads get same jobs as those at other top 10-15ish programs. The real difference is with the top 10% and probably the bottom 10-20%.
Couldn't have asked for a better breakdown. I'd give SB but I'm not seeing the icon.
Makes perfect sense and confirms my suspicion that the people who are legitimately faced with the "HSW or Bust" decision are already in incredible situations.
I don't care about rankings, but honestly, what is the lowest ranked B School that would get you into MBB at a regional office (not NYC, SF etc)?
Ross/Darden/Johnson can all get you to MBB. McCombs may be able to do that as well, but not sure.
I'm sure there are some other backdoors, but those schools all have OCR, as far as I know.
There are MBA graduates from Georgetown, Wake Forest and other much lower ranked schools at MBB. Wake Forest is ranked like 45, Georgetown is like 25.
Depends on your skillset and value add. If you've got prior consulting experience, a top GMAT, etc you'll get plucked out of any top 20 program. If you're doing a clean transition and aren't a megastar but have good stats you'll do fine at a top 15. If you're a marginal candidate your school won't likely matter. These are just rules of thumb, though. I've seen people get MBB out of non top 25 schools but that's more rare. Just get into a top 15 and get stats/WE that help you standout and you'll be fine. PE is an entirely different beast, though. I'm seeing dreams get shattered at even top 5s.
Double post
Great post and highly accurate, in my opinion.
It really depends what you're trying to get out of going to bschool. A lot of people that go to a top bschool program do so with the sole intention of getting into banking or consulting or corp dev. If thats the intent, those opportunities are accessible to you no matter which one of those programs you go to.
In terms of the schools themselves, in my opinion the M7 term is very generous to the M4-7 and moderately generous to M #3. H and S are head clearly above the rest of the pack. What's my basis for saying so? Aside from my own personal preference and opportunity cost: brand and network.
Among top b-schools I'd say Tier 1: HS, Tier 2: W, then everyone else.
The M7 is a conspiracy created by Columbia to make themselves feel better.
Why don't you shoot for HWS from big 4 and see how that works out.
In 95% of the cases M7 (or even top 15) will do just as much for you as HWS. Not everyone can get into HWS - so then what do you do?
I fully plan on it, but I'm also a realist. I'm a little old, I'm an auditor, and I don't have "change the world ECs". But I'm bright and if I can raise my math score a bit, I'll easily have the GMAT.
However, ultimately my purpose for starting the post was to confirm what TheGrind posted. And, as Marcus_Halberstram mentioned, my purpose for getting MBA is to get good consulting gig and ride that to a startup or F500 that does something I care about. Honestly I just want to add some value, however little, and be an individual. Can't do that as an auditor, and I think M7 (even 4-7, will get me there.
Rice has people at MBB and top 50 school
monty, if my goal was to get into the O&G practice at MBB Office in Houston, what 10-20 schools should I look at? I don't think I will get into the top 10.
UT would be high on list as would every other top 10 school... Rice gets them on campus but tend to be one hire each
Are you applying to McCombs? If not, why are you not applying? (I imagine you'd want to get out of TX for a while though!)
Well...the weaker your background is - the better BS you need to target...That's my opinion...may sound illogical though. I mean, the people who already have their first degrees from Ivy or a top10 school - for them its of course no big difference Columbia, HSW or lets say Berkeley...He or she may still get better postMBA placement from top10 school than somebody like me (small unknown country in the between Europe and Asia, noname first degree, no US passport or greencard) from a top3.
I'll echo what @TheGrind has said -- for pretty much anyone, top 15 ( which, really, is top 17 -- UNC and UT included) is going to be solid for what you want to do - FLDP and IBD programs. you want energy, do texas/rice, you want consulting, sway a little harder to ross or fuqua. tech? fuqua haas anderson and probably ross do well in that area
for energy, Texas will probably place better than Columbia or Tuck (GASP OMG). For entertainment, USC Marshall probably sends the same if not more than HBS to Disney (OMG NO WAY)
if you want to do buy side ER -- sure top m7 or m8 or whatever you want will 'place you well' but you do realize how even still how many apply from this group and how many all the buy side shops actually take per year? same with PE.
and dont forget LBS and INSEAD
i think there is a ton of kool aid drinking that goes on in terms of rankings and all. a lot of people also get their dreams shattered thinking 'oo ill do IBD post MBA then be in PE' then they get told 'lol not happening' or also think oo consulting sexy ill land in xyz and then do THIS and then also get told 'lol not happening' when the realities hit.
someone did post on here before 'would you prefer to be mediocre in the top most elite school in the m7 or a full ride to a strong top 15 for what you want to do'. 120k in tuition+living expenses at exorbitant interest rates definitely puts a hankering on your quality of life as a fortune 500 guy.. or as someone who decides that IBD sucks ( i still dont understand why you all have that dream esp when its not paying like it used to lol) or consulting travel sucks and you want to have a family and all.
after your MBA, youre still going to be the same fish as any other experienced professional searching around for a job although youll have more of a network.
That's it. I'm going for UT and whatever scholarships they give me. Maybe I'll apply to a few other southern schools with decent Fin Aid.
Just one more thing, I see that UT places well into Energy Finance/IBD in Houston, but what about MBB in Houston/Dallas?
they do fine
+1 - so many kids come into Wharton thinking they will be able to jump to PE or a hedge fund no problem, even though they have no buy side experience. The career office has burst tons of dreams of people who thought HSW would get them over to the buy side despite whatever their previous experience was.
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